Is it possible to have an Abelian group under two different binary operations but the binary operations are...












3












$begingroup$


I am trying to show that if $(R, +)$ is an Abelian group and $(R - {0_R}, cdot)$ is an Abelian group, then $(R, +, cdot)$ is not necessarily a field. Note that $0_R$ is the identity element of $(R, +)$. I know that a field is a commutative division ring and one of a ring's properties is that $forall a,b in R, ~ acdot (b + c) = a cdot b + acdot c$. Therefore, I am trying to come up with a set and two binary operations that satisfy the first property, but together do not form a field.



So far, I have come up with a group over polynomials with $+$ being normal addition and $cdot$ being composition, but then $(R - {0_R})$ is not commutative. I would appreciate any help/guidance.



Thanks.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Composition isn't invertible either.
    $endgroup$
    – jgon
    12 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Let $R$ be any six-element set, and put any Abelian group structures you like on $R$ and $R-{0}$.
    $endgroup$
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You're working too hard. Just literally take any random abelian group structures at all and they almost certainly will not be distributive.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    8 hours ago
















3












$begingroup$


I am trying to show that if $(R, +)$ is an Abelian group and $(R - {0_R}, cdot)$ is an Abelian group, then $(R, +, cdot)$ is not necessarily a field. Note that $0_R$ is the identity element of $(R, +)$. I know that a field is a commutative division ring and one of a ring's properties is that $forall a,b in R, ~ acdot (b + c) = a cdot b + acdot c$. Therefore, I am trying to come up with a set and two binary operations that satisfy the first property, but together do not form a field.



So far, I have come up with a group over polynomials with $+$ being normal addition and $cdot$ being composition, but then $(R - {0_R})$ is not commutative. I would appreciate any help/guidance.



Thanks.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Composition isn't invertible either.
    $endgroup$
    – jgon
    12 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Let $R$ be any six-element set, and put any Abelian group structures you like on $R$ and $R-{0}$.
    $endgroup$
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You're working too hard. Just literally take any random abelian group structures at all and they almost certainly will not be distributive.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    8 hours ago














3












3








3


1



$begingroup$


I am trying to show that if $(R, +)$ is an Abelian group and $(R - {0_R}, cdot)$ is an Abelian group, then $(R, +, cdot)$ is not necessarily a field. Note that $0_R$ is the identity element of $(R, +)$. I know that a field is a commutative division ring and one of a ring's properties is that $forall a,b in R, ~ acdot (b + c) = a cdot b + acdot c$. Therefore, I am trying to come up with a set and two binary operations that satisfy the first property, but together do not form a field.



So far, I have come up with a group over polynomials with $+$ being normal addition and $cdot$ being composition, but then $(R - {0_R})$ is not commutative. I would appreciate any help/guidance.



Thanks.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




I am trying to show that if $(R, +)$ is an Abelian group and $(R - {0_R}, cdot)$ is an Abelian group, then $(R, +, cdot)$ is not necessarily a field. Note that $0_R$ is the identity element of $(R, +)$. I know that a field is a commutative division ring and one of a ring's properties is that $forall a,b in R, ~ acdot (b + c) = a cdot b + acdot c$. Therefore, I am trying to come up with a set and two binary operations that satisfy the first property, but together do not form a field.



So far, I have come up with a group over polynomials with $+$ being normal addition and $cdot$ being composition, but then $(R - {0_R})$ is not commutative. I would appreciate any help/guidance.



Thanks.







group-theory ring-theory field-theory






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 12 hours ago









sepehr78sepehr78

725




725












  • $begingroup$
    Composition isn't invertible either.
    $endgroup$
    – jgon
    12 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Let $R$ be any six-element set, and put any Abelian group structures you like on $R$ and $R-{0}$.
    $endgroup$
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You're working too hard. Just literally take any random abelian group structures at all and they almost certainly will not be distributive.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    8 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Composition isn't invertible either.
    $endgroup$
    – jgon
    12 hours ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Let $R$ be any six-element set, and put any Abelian group structures you like on $R$ and $R-{0}$.
    $endgroup$
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    You're working too hard. Just literally take any random abelian group structures at all and they almost certainly will not be distributive.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    8 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Composition isn't invertible either.
$endgroup$
– jgon
12 hours ago




$begingroup$
Composition isn't invertible either.
$endgroup$
– jgon
12 hours ago




5




5




$begingroup$
Let $R$ be any six-element set, and put any Abelian group structures you like on $R$ and $R-{0}$.
$endgroup$
– Lord Shark the Unknown
12 hours ago




$begingroup$
Let $R$ be any six-element set, and put any Abelian group structures you like on $R$ and $R-{0}$.
$endgroup$
– Lord Shark the Unknown
12 hours ago












$begingroup$
You're working too hard. Just literally take any random abelian group structures at all and they almost certainly will not be distributive.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
You're working too hard. Just literally take any random abelian group structures at all and they almost certainly will not be distributive.
$endgroup$
– Eric Wofsey
8 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

Here is a concrete example, inspired by LStU:



The set is ${0,1,2,3,4,5}$. Addition is just addition mod $6$.



Multiplication is defined by
$$
acdot b = left{ begin{array}{cl} 0& a=0 \ 0 & b=0 \
1 & a = b= 5 \
5 & a=5 wedge b in [1,4]\
5 & b=5 wedge a in [1,4]\
ab pmod{5}& mbox{otherwise}end{array} right.
$$

or as a table
$$
begin{array}{c|cccccc} cdot&0&1&2&3&4&5 \ hline
0 & 0&0&0&0&0&0 \
1 & 0&1&2&3&4&5 \
2 & 0&2&4&1&3&5 \
3 & 0&3&1&4&2&5 \
4 & 0&4&3&2&1&5 \
5 & 5&5&5&5&5&1
end{array}
$$

The group properties, as well as commutativity, are easily checked.



Now consider $$ (1+4)cdot 5 = 5cdot 5 = 1 \
1cdot 5 + 4 cdot 5 = 5+5 = 4 neq 1
$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Um, is the "group" (ignoring 0) actually a group under the operation .? I mean, first year group theory is a long, long time ago now, but I remember one of the features being that each row and column of the Cayley table featurwa each member exactly once. Plus is it associative?
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yeah, that's not a group. Not associative. 2(5.5) = 2.1 = 2, while (2.5)5 = 5.5 = 1.
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The questioner specified that it be a group under both operations. I'm just going with the questioner's actual request. Plus a monoid's operation is still associative.
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    Ah, it's not even associative, so even if it did just have to be a monoid (for a ring), it's not.
    $endgroup$
    – Joseph Sible
    7 hours ago



















4












$begingroup$

As @LordSharktheUnknown implicitly points out, if you just take a finite set with non-prime-power order (six is the first such integer $ge 2$) and put any group structures you want, it will have to work, because finite fields have prime-power order.





But just to be thorough, you can construct an example $R$ with $|R|=n$ for any $n>3$ (we ignore $|R|=1$ as it's not very interesting). So the only mildly surprising thing is that you can't do it with $|R|=3$. Your hand is forced for the additive structure, and then there are only two options for a multiplicative structure, by choosing a labeling of $R-{0}$, and either forms a field, because the additive structure of $mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is preserved by relabeling $1$ and $2$



If $n>3$, let's construct an example. If $n$ is not a prime power, choose any group structures you like (e.g., cyclic), as we saw. If $n = p^e$ with $p$ prime and $ege 2$, then make $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z},+)$, which will work since the additive structure of a finite field is not cyclic unless it has prime order. If $n=p$ is prime, then you are forced to have $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$, so let's just identify them, i.e. take $(R,+) := (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$. Suppose $pge 7$. Define $cdot$ on $(mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z})-{0}$ to be cyclic generated by $2$ so that the powers of $2$ are $2^1 = 2$, $2^2 = 1$, and $2^k = k$ for $3le k le p-1$. Now, doing addition first, we have
$$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 2 = 2^2 = 1,$$
but distributing first, we have
$$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 1 + 2cdot 1 = 2cdot 2^2 + 2cdot 2^2 = 2^3 + 2^3 = 3+3=6 ne 1$$
in $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z}$. If $p=5$, you can define $3^1 = 3$, $3^2 = 2$, $3^3 = 4$, and $3^4 = 1$, and then, doing addition first, we have
$$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 2 = 3cdot 3^2 = 3^3 = 4,$$
but, distributing first, we have
$$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 1 + 3cdot 1 = 3cdot 3^4 + 3cdot 3^4 = 3^1 + 3^1 = 6 = 1.$$





You can also do it with any infinite set. Pretty much anything you try will work, provided you let loose a bit. Take $R = mathbb{Z}$, with $+$ being regular addition. For example, let $S = mathbb{Z}setminus {0}$, let $phi:S to R$ be the bijection which shifts negative numbers up by one and is constant on positive numbers. Now define $acdot b = phi^{-1}(phi(a)+phi(b))$. We're just relabeling $S$ to be $mathbb{Z}$ again and then doing regular addition. Now, doing addition first, we have
$$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 2 = phi^{-1}(-1+2) = 1,$$
but distributing first, we have
$$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 1 + -2cdot 1 = phi^{-1}(-1+1) + phi^{-1}(-1+1) = -1+(-1) = -2.$$



In terms of guidance, you should expect that you'll need to do something perverse like this, because most of the examples you'll think of where two binary operations already exist are rings, where distributivity necessarily holds.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    });
    });
    }, "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3145486%2fis-it-possible-to-have-an-abelian-group-under-two-different-binary-operations-bu%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2












    $begingroup$

    Here is a concrete example, inspired by LStU:



    The set is ${0,1,2,3,4,5}$. Addition is just addition mod $6$.



    Multiplication is defined by
    $$
    acdot b = left{ begin{array}{cl} 0& a=0 \ 0 & b=0 \
    1 & a = b= 5 \
    5 & a=5 wedge b in [1,4]\
    5 & b=5 wedge a in [1,4]\
    ab pmod{5}& mbox{otherwise}end{array} right.
    $$

    or as a table
    $$
    begin{array}{c|cccccc} cdot&0&1&2&3&4&5 \ hline
    0 & 0&0&0&0&0&0 \
    1 & 0&1&2&3&4&5 \
    2 & 0&2&4&1&3&5 \
    3 & 0&3&1&4&2&5 \
    4 & 0&4&3&2&1&5 \
    5 & 5&5&5&5&5&1
    end{array}
    $$

    The group properties, as well as commutativity, are easily checked.



    Now consider $$ (1+4)cdot 5 = 5cdot 5 = 1 \
    1cdot 5 + 4 cdot 5 = 5+5 = 4 neq 1
    $$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$









    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Um, is the "group" (ignoring 0) actually a group under the operation .? I mean, first year group theory is a long, long time ago now, but I remember one of the features being that each row and column of the Cayley table featurwa each member exactly once. Plus is it associative?
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Yeah, that's not a group. Not associative. 2(5.5) = 2.1 = 2, while (2.5)5 = 5.5 = 1.
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The questioner specified that it be a group under both operations. I'm just going with the questioner's actual request. Plus a monoid's operation is still associative.
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      Ah, it's not even associative, so even if it did just have to be a monoid (for a ring), it's not.
      $endgroup$
      – Joseph Sible
      7 hours ago
















    2












    $begingroup$

    Here is a concrete example, inspired by LStU:



    The set is ${0,1,2,3,4,5}$. Addition is just addition mod $6$.



    Multiplication is defined by
    $$
    acdot b = left{ begin{array}{cl} 0& a=0 \ 0 & b=0 \
    1 & a = b= 5 \
    5 & a=5 wedge b in [1,4]\
    5 & b=5 wedge a in [1,4]\
    ab pmod{5}& mbox{otherwise}end{array} right.
    $$

    or as a table
    $$
    begin{array}{c|cccccc} cdot&0&1&2&3&4&5 \ hline
    0 & 0&0&0&0&0&0 \
    1 & 0&1&2&3&4&5 \
    2 & 0&2&4&1&3&5 \
    3 & 0&3&1&4&2&5 \
    4 & 0&4&3&2&1&5 \
    5 & 5&5&5&5&5&1
    end{array}
    $$

    The group properties, as well as commutativity, are easily checked.



    Now consider $$ (1+4)cdot 5 = 5cdot 5 = 1 \
    1cdot 5 + 4 cdot 5 = 5+5 = 4 neq 1
    $$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$









    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Um, is the "group" (ignoring 0) actually a group under the operation .? I mean, first year group theory is a long, long time ago now, but I remember one of the features being that each row and column of the Cayley table featurwa each member exactly once. Plus is it associative?
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Yeah, that's not a group. Not associative. 2(5.5) = 2.1 = 2, while (2.5)5 = 5.5 = 1.
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The questioner specified that it be a group under both operations. I'm just going with the questioner's actual request. Plus a monoid's operation is still associative.
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      Ah, it's not even associative, so even if it did just have to be a monoid (for a ring), it's not.
      $endgroup$
      – Joseph Sible
      7 hours ago














    2












    2








    2





    $begingroup$

    Here is a concrete example, inspired by LStU:



    The set is ${0,1,2,3,4,5}$. Addition is just addition mod $6$.



    Multiplication is defined by
    $$
    acdot b = left{ begin{array}{cl} 0& a=0 \ 0 & b=0 \
    1 & a = b= 5 \
    5 & a=5 wedge b in [1,4]\
    5 & b=5 wedge a in [1,4]\
    ab pmod{5}& mbox{otherwise}end{array} right.
    $$

    or as a table
    $$
    begin{array}{c|cccccc} cdot&0&1&2&3&4&5 \ hline
    0 & 0&0&0&0&0&0 \
    1 & 0&1&2&3&4&5 \
    2 & 0&2&4&1&3&5 \
    3 & 0&3&1&4&2&5 \
    4 & 0&4&3&2&1&5 \
    5 & 5&5&5&5&5&1
    end{array}
    $$

    The group properties, as well as commutativity, are easily checked.



    Now consider $$ (1+4)cdot 5 = 5cdot 5 = 1 \
    1cdot 5 + 4 cdot 5 = 5+5 = 4 neq 1
    $$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Here is a concrete example, inspired by LStU:



    The set is ${0,1,2,3,4,5}$. Addition is just addition mod $6$.



    Multiplication is defined by
    $$
    acdot b = left{ begin{array}{cl} 0& a=0 \ 0 & b=0 \
    1 & a = b= 5 \
    5 & a=5 wedge b in [1,4]\
    5 & b=5 wedge a in [1,4]\
    ab pmod{5}& mbox{otherwise}end{array} right.
    $$

    or as a table
    $$
    begin{array}{c|cccccc} cdot&0&1&2&3&4&5 \ hline
    0 & 0&0&0&0&0&0 \
    1 & 0&1&2&3&4&5 \
    2 & 0&2&4&1&3&5 \
    3 & 0&3&1&4&2&5 \
    4 & 0&4&3&2&1&5 \
    5 & 5&5&5&5&5&1
    end{array}
    $$

    The group properties, as well as commutativity, are easily checked.



    Now consider $$ (1+4)cdot 5 = 5cdot 5 = 1 \
    1cdot 5 + 4 cdot 5 = 5+5 = 4 neq 1
    $$







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 11 hours ago









    Mark FischlerMark Fischler

    33.4k12452




    33.4k12452








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Um, is the "group" (ignoring 0) actually a group under the operation .? I mean, first year group theory is a long, long time ago now, but I remember one of the features being that each row and column of the Cayley table featurwa each member exactly once. Plus is it associative?
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Yeah, that's not a group. Not associative. 2(5.5) = 2.1 = 2, while (2.5)5 = 5.5 = 1.
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The questioner specified that it be a group under both operations. I'm just going with the questioner's actual request. Plus a monoid's operation is still associative.
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      Ah, it's not even associative, so even if it did just have to be a monoid (for a ring), it's not.
      $endgroup$
      – Joseph Sible
      7 hours ago














    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Um, is the "group" (ignoring 0) actually a group under the operation .? I mean, first year group theory is a long, long time ago now, but I remember one of the features being that each row and column of the Cayley table featurwa each member exactly once. Plus is it associative?
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Yeah, that's not a group. Not associative. 2(5.5) = 2.1 = 2, while (2.5)5 = 5.5 = 1.
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      The questioner specified that it be a group under both operations. I'm just going with the questioner's actual request. Plus a monoid's operation is still associative.
      $endgroup$
      – SamBC
      7 hours ago












    • $begingroup$
      Ah, it's not even associative, so even if it did just have to be a monoid (for a ring), it's not.
      $endgroup$
      – Joseph Sible
      7 hours ago








    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Um, is the "group" (ignoring 0) actually a group under the operation .? I mean, first year group theory is a long, long time ago now, but I remember one of the features being that each row and column of the Cayley table featurwa each member exactly once. Plus is it associative?
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago






    $begingroup$
    Um, is the "group" (ignoring 0) actually a group under the operation .? I mean, first year group theory is a long, long time ago now, but I remember one of the features being that each row and column of the Cayley table featurwa each member exactly once. Plus is it associative?
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago






    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Yeah, that's not a group. Not associative. 2(5.5) = 2.1 = 2, while (2.5)5 = 5.5 = 1.
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Yeah, that's not a group. Not associative. 2(5.5) = 2.1 = 2, while (2.5)5 = 5.5 = 1.
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    The questioner specified that it be a group under both operations. I'm just going with the questioner's actual request. Plus a monoid's operation is still associative.
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago






    $begingroup$
    The questioner specified that it be a group under both operations. I'm just going with the questioner's actual request. Plus a monoid's operation is still associative.
    $endgroup$
    – SamBC
    7 hours ago














    $begingroup$
    Ah, it's not even associative, so even if it did just have to be a monoid (for a ring), it's not.
    $endgroup$
    – Joseph Sible
    7 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Ah, it's not even associative, so even if it did just have to be a monoid (for a ring), it's not.
    $endgroup$
    – Joseph Sible
    7 hours ago











    4












    $begingroup$

    As @LordSharktheUnknown implicitly points out, if you just take a finite set with non-prime-power order (six is the first such integer $ge 2$) and put any group structures you want, it will have to work, because finite fields have prime-power order.





    But just to be thorough, you can construct an example $R$ with $|R|=n$ for any $n>3$ (we ignore $|R|=1$ as it's not very interesting). So the only mildly surprising thing is that you can't do it with $|R|=3$. Your hand is forced for the additive structure, and then there are only two options for a multiplicative structure, by choosing a labeling of $R-{0}$, and either forms a field, because the additive structure of $mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is preserved by relabeling $1$ and $2$



    If $n>3$, let's construct an example. If $n$ is not a prime power, choose any group structures you like (e.g., cyclic), as we saw. If $n = p^e$ with $p$ prime and $ege 2$, then make $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z},+)$, which will work since the additive structure of a finite field is not cyclic unless it has prime order. If $n=p$ is prime, then you are forced to have $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$, so let's just identify them, i.e. take $(R,+) := (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$. Suppose $pge 7$. Define $cdot$ on $(mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z})-{0}$ to be cyclic generated by $2$ so that the powers of $2$ are $2^1 = 2$, $2^2 = 1$, and $2^k = k$ for $3le k le p-1$. Now, doing addition first, we have
    $$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 2 = 2^2 = 1,$$
    but distributing first, we have
    $$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 1 + 2cdot 1 = 2cdot 2^2 + 2cdot 2^2 = 2^3 + 2^3 = 3+3=6 ne 1$$
    in $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z}$. If $p=5$, you can define $3^1 = 3$, $3^2 = 2$, $3^3 = 4$, and $3^4 = 1$, and then, doing addition first, we have
    $$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 2 = 3cdot 3^2 = 3^3 = 4,$$
    but, distributing first, we have
    $$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 1 + 3cdot 1 = 3cdot 3^4 + 3cdot 3^4 = 3^1 + 3^1 = 6 = 1.$$





    You can also do it with any infinite set. Pretty much anything you try will work, provided you let loose a bit. Take $R = mathbb{Z}$, with $+$ being regular addition. For example, let $S = mathbb{Z}setminus {0}$, let $phi:S to R$ be the bijection which shifts negative numbers up by one and is constant on positive numbers. Now define $acdot b = phi^{-1}(phi(a)+phi(b))$. We're just relabeling $S$ to be $mathbb{Z}$ again and then doing regular addition. Now, doing addition first, we have
    $$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 2 = phi^{-1}(-1+2) = 1,$$
    but distributing first, we have
    $$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 1 + -2cdot 1 = phi^{-1}(-1+1) + phi^{-1}(-1+1) = -1+(-1) = -2.$$



    In terms of guidance, you should expect that you'll need to do something perverse like this, because most of the examples you'll think of where two binary operations already exist are rings, where distributivity necessarily holds.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$


















      4












      $begingroup$

      As @LordSharktheUnknown implicitly points out, if you just take a finite set with non-prime-power order (six is the first such integer $ge 2$) and put any group structures you want, it will have to work, because finite fields have prime-power order.





      But just to be thorough, you can construct an example $R$ with $|R|=n$ for any $n>3$ (we ignore $|R|=1$ as it's not very interesting). So the only mildly surprising thing is that you can't do it with $|R|=3$. Your hand is forced for the additive structure, and then there are only two options for a multiplicative structure, by choosing a labeling of $R-{0}$, and either forms a field, because the additive structure of $mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is preserved by relabeling $1$ and $2$



      If $n>3$, let's construct an example. If $n$ is not a prime power, choose any group structures you like (e.g., cyclic), as we saw. If $n = p^e$ with $p$ prime and $ege 2$, then make $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z},+)$, which will work since the additive structure of a finite field is not cyclic unless it has prime order. If $n=p$ is prime, then you are forced to have $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$, so let's just identify them, i.e. take $(R,+) := (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$. Suppose $pge 7$. Define $cdot$ on $(mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z})-{0}$ to be cyclic generated by $2$ so that the powers of $2$ are $2^1 = 2$, $2^2 = 1$, and $2^k = k$ for $3le k le p-1$. Now, doing addition first, we have
      $$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 2 = 2^2 = 1,$$
      but distributing first, we have
      $$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 1 + 2cdot 1 = 2cdot 2^2 + 2cdot 2^2 = 2^3 + 2^3 = 3+3=6 ne 1$$
      in $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z}$. If $p=5$, you can define $3^1 = 3$, $3^2 = 2$, $3^3 = 4$, and $3^4 = 1$, and then, doing addition first, we have
      $$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 2 = 3cdot 3^2 = 3^3 = 4,$$
      but, distributing first, we have
      $$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 1 + 3cdot 1 = 3cdot 3^4 + 3cdot 3^4 = 3^1 + 3^1 = 6 = 1.$$





      You can also do it with any infinite set. Pretty much anything you try will work, provided you let loose a bit. Take $R = mathbb{Z}$, with $+$ being regular addition. For example, let $S = mathbb{Z}setminus {0}$, let $phi:S to R$ be the bijection which shifts negative numbers up by one and is constant on positive numbers. Now define $acdot b = phi^{-1}(phi(a)+phi(b))$. We're just relabeling $S$ to be $mathbb{Z}$ again and then doing regular addition. Now, doing addition first, we have
      $$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 2 = phi^{-1}(-1+2) = 1,$$
      but distributing first, we have
      $$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 1 + -2cdot 1 = phi^{-1}(-1+1) + phi^{-1}(-1+1) = -1+(-1) = -2.$$



      In terms of guidance, you should expect that you'll need to do something perverse like this, because most of the examples you'll think of where two binary operations already exist are rings, where distributivity necessarily holds.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$
















        4












        4








        4





        $begingroup$

        As @LordSharktheUnknown implicitly points out, if you just take a finite set with non-prime-power order (six is the first such integer $ge 2$) and put any group structures you want, it will have to work, because finite fields have prime-power order.





        But just to be thorough, you can construct an example $R$ with $|R|=n$ for any $n>3$ (we ignore $|R|=1$ as it's not very interesting). So the only mildly surprising thing is that you can't do it with $|R|=3$. Your hand is forced for the additive structure, and then there are only two options for a multiplicative structure, by choosing a labeling of $R-{0}$, and either forms a field, because the additive structure of $mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is preserved by relabeling $1$ and $2$



        If $n>3$, let's construct an example. If $n$ is not a prime power, choose any group structures you like (e.g., cyclic), as we saw. If $n = p^e$ with $p$ prime and $ege 2$, then make $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z},+)$, which will work since the additive structure of a finite field is not cyclic unless it has prime order. If $n=p$ is prime, then you are forced to have $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$, so let's just identify them, i.e. take $(R,+) := (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$. Suppose $pge 7$. Define $cdot$ on $(mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z})-{0}$ to be cyclic generated by $2$ so that the powers of $2$ are $2^1 = 2$, $2^2 = 1$, and $2^k = k$ for $3le k le p-1$. Now, doing addition first, we have
        $$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 2 = 2^2 = 1,$$
        but distributing first, we have
        $$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 1 + 2cdot 1 = 2cdot 2^2 + 2cdot 2^2 = 2^3 + 2^3 = 3+3=6 ne 1$$
        in $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z}$. If $p=5$, you can define $3^1 = 3$, $3^2 = 2$, $3^3 = 4$, and $3^4 = 1$, and then, doing addition first, we have
        $$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 2 = 3cdot 3^2 = 3^3 = 4,$$
        but, distributing first, we have
        $$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 1 + 3cdot 1 = 3cdot 3^4 + 3cdot 3^4 = 3^1 + 3^1 = 6 = 1.$$





        You can also do it with any infinite set. Pretty much anything you try will work, provided you let loose a bit. Take $R = mathbb{Z}$, with $+$ being regular addition. For example, let $S = mathbb{Z}setminus {0}$, let $phi:S to R$ be the bijection which shifts negative numbers up by one and is constant on positive numbers. Now define $acdot b = phi^{-1}(phi(a)+phi(b))$. We're just relabeling $S$ to be $mathbb{Z}$ again and then doing regular addition. Now, doing addition first, we have
        $$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 2 = phi^{-1}(-1+2) = 1,$$
        but distributing first, we have
        $$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 1 + -2cdot 1 = phi^{-1}(-1+1) + phi^{-1}(-1+1) = -1+(-1) = -2.$$



        In terms of guidance, you should expect that you'll need to do something perverse like this, because most of the examples you'll think of where two binary operations already exist are rings, where distributivity necessarily holds.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        As @LordSharktheUnknown implicitly points out, if you just take a finite set with non-prime-power order (six is the first such integer $ge 2$) and put any group structures you want, it will have to work, because finite fields have prime-power order.





        But just to be thorough, you can construct an example $R$ with $|R|=n$ for any $n>3$ (we ignore $|R|=1$ as it's not very interesting). So the only mildly surprising thing is that you can't do it with $|R|=3$. Your hand is forced for the additive structure, and then there are only two options for a multiplicative structure, by choosing a labeling of $R-{0}$, and either forms a field, because the additive structure of $mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is preserved by relabeling $1$ and $2$



        If $n>3$, let's construct an example. If $n$ is not a prime power, choose any group structures you like (e.g., cyclic), as we saw. If $n = p^e$ with $p$ prime and $ege 2$, then make $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z},+)$, which will work since the additive structure of a finite field is not cyclic unless it has prime order. If $n=p$ is prime, then you are forced to have $(R,+) cong (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$, so let's just identify them, i.e. take $(R,+) := (mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z},+)$. Suppose $pge 7$. Define $cdot$ on $(mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z})-{0}$ to be cyclic generated by $2$ so that the powers of $2$ are $2^1 = 2$, $2^2 = 1$, and $2^k = k$ for $3le k le p-1$. Now, doing addition first, we have
        $$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 2 = 2^2 = 1,$$
        but distributing first, we have
        $$2cdot(1+1) = 2cdot 1 + 2cdot 1 = 2cdot 2^2 + 2cdot 2^2 = 2^3 + 2^3 = 3+3=6 ne 1$$
        in $mathbb{Z}/pmathbb{Z}$. If $p=5$, you can define $3^1 = 3$, $3^2 = 2$, $3^3 = 4$, and $3^4 = 1$, and then, doing addition first, we have
        $$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 2 = 3cdot 3^2 = 3^3 = 4,$$
        but, distributing first, we have
        $$3cdot(1+1) = 3cdot 1 + 3cdot 1 = 3cdot 3^4 + 3cdot 3^4 = 3^1 + 3^1 = 6 = 1.$$





        You can also do it with any infinite set. Pretty much anything you try will work, provided you let loose a bit. Take $R = mathbb{Z}$, with $+$ being regular addition. For example, let $S = mathbb{Z}setminus {0}$, let $phi:S to R$ be the bijection which shifts negative numbers up by one and is constant on positive numbers. Now define $acdot b = phi^{-1}(phi(a)+phi(b))$. We're just relabeling $S$ to be $mathbb{Z}$ again and then doing regular addition. Now, doing addition first, we have
        $$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 2 = phi^{-1}(-1+2) = 1,$$
        but distributing first, we have
        $$-2cdot(1+1) = -2cdot 1 + -2cdot 1 = phi^{-1}(-1+1) + phi^{-1}(-1+1) = -1+(-1) = -2.$$



        In terms of guidance, you should expect that you'll need to do something perverse like this, because most of the examples you'll think of where two binary operations already exist are rings, where distributivity necessarily holds.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 6 hours ago

























        answered 11 hours ago









        cspruncsprun

        1,99729




        1,99729






























            draft saved

            draft discarded




















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3145486%2fis-it-possible-to-have-an-abelian-group-under-two-different-binary-operations-bu%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            If I really need a card on my start hand, how many mulligans make sense? [duplicate]

            Alcedinidae

            Can an atomic nucleus contain both particles and antiparticles? [duplicate]