Unwarranted claim of higher degree of accuracy in zircon geochronology












6












$begingroup$


The uncertainty in the half life of uranium-238 is stated at 0.05% [1]. The same paper gives the date 251.941 myr ± 31 kyr.
251.941 $times$ 0.05% = 125 kyr.



How are the authors justified in claiming an accuracy of ± 31 kyr when the uncertainty in the half life alone is ± 125 kyr? On top of that, they list two other kinds of analytical uncertainties, which would only increase the overall uncertainty.



[1] ​ Burgess, S. ​et al​, "High-precision timeline for Earth’s most severe extinction", Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA​, Volume 111, 2014.
https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/111/9/3316.full.pdf










share|improve this question









New contributor




sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$

















    6












    $begingroup$


    The uncertainty in the half life of uranium-238 is stated at 0.05% [1]. The same paper gives the date 251.941 myr ± 31 kyr.
    251.941 $times$ 0.05% = 125 kyr.



    How are the authors justified in claiming an accuracy of ± 31 kyr when the uncertainty in the half life alone is ± 125 kyr? On top of that, they list two other kinds of analytical uncertainties, which would only increase the overall uncertainty.



    [1] ​ Burgess, S. ​et al​, "High-precision timeline for Earth’s most severe extinction", Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA​, Volume 111, 2014.
    https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/111/9/3316.full.pdf










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.







    $endgroup$















      6












      6








      6





      $begingroup$


      The uncertainty in the half life of uranium-238 is stated at 0.05% [1]. The same paper gives the date 251.941 myr ± 31 kyr.
      251.941 $times$ 0.05% = 125 kyr.



      How are the authors justified in claiming an accuracy of ± 31 kyr when the uncertainty in the half life alone is ± 125 kyr? On top of that, they list two other kinds of analytical uncertainties, which would only increase the overall uncertainty.



      [1] ​ Burgess, S. ​et al​, "High-precision timeline for Earth’s most severe extinction", Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA​, Volume 111, 2014.
      https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/111/9/3316.full.pdf










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.







      $endgroup$




      The uncertainty in the half life of uranium-238 is stated at 0.05% [1]. The same paper gives the date 251.941 myr ± 31 kyr.
      251.941 $times$ 0.05% = 125 kyr.



      How are the authors justified in claiming an accuracy of ± 31 kyr when the uncertainty in the half life alone is ± 125 kyr? On top of that, they list two other kinds of analytical uncertainties, which would only increase the overall uncertainty.



      [1] ​ Burgess, S. ​et al​, "High-precision timeline for Earth’s most severe extinction", Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA​, Volume 111, 2014.
      https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/111/9/3316.full.pdf







      measurements mass-extinction geochronology uranium






      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 5 hours ago









      Camilo Rada

      12.4k33882




      12.4k33882






      New contributor




      sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      asked 10 hours ago









      sidharth chhabrasidharth chhabra

      384




      384




      New contributor




      sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.





      New contributor





      sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      sidharth chhabra is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          7












          $begingroup$

          I can't be entirely sure but I'll make an informed guess:



          That value doesn't come for a single measurement. Therefore, if the error in the age of a single sample is $pm125$ kyr, you just need to average 16 samples to get it down to $pm31$ kyr.



          The uncertainty in the addition (or substraction) of two or more quantities is equal to the square root of the addition of the squares of the uncertainties of each quantity (assuming they arise from random errors). For example, if we have quantity A with uncertainty $sigma_a$ and quantity B with uncertainty $sigma_b$, the error in the quantity $C=A+B$ would be:



          $sigma_c=sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}$



          And if we call M to the average between A and B. The uncertainty in the average is



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}}{2}$



          So if we average 16 samples with $sigma=125$ kyr, the uncertainty in the average would be



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{16 sigma^2}}{16}=frac{sqrt{16 times 125^2}}{16}=31$ kyr



          Uncertainty propagation can be seen in the abstract of the article you refer to:




          The extinction occurred between 251.941 ± 0.037 and 251.880 ± 0.031
          Mya, an interval of 60 ± 48 ka.




          Where the ±48 ka comes from?



          $sqrt{37^2+31^2}=48$



          This treatment of uncertainties assumes that uncertainties are independent of each other. As @Mark pointed in the comments, this won't be the case if the uncertainty comes from "the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238)".



          This is: if you measure something with a "yard-stick" that have the wrong size, you can't reduce the resulting error by just averaging many measurements.



          I don't know enough of geochronology to understand all the different errors they report. But the simple example in the abstract cite I presented above shows that they are indeed treating those errors as independent. Otherwise the reported interval error (±48 ka) would not make sense.



          If one significant source of error is indeed the uncertainty in the half-life of $^{238}$U, and there is an exact value for this half-life. Then, it would be wrong to treat these errors as independent. However, maybe an exact value of the half-life doesn't exist, and what they meant is that the half-life value can vary a 0.05%. I don't know. This is something to look into if you want to figure out if the treatment of errors they do is correct. However, after a quick google search I found that radioactive half-life can indeed vary by a small fraction due to environmental conditions, this article explains pretty well the phenomena. Here a short excerpt:




          ...radioactive half-life of an atom can depend on how it is bonded to
          other atoms. Simply by changing the neighboring atoms that are bonded
          to a radioactive isotope, we can change its half-life. However, the
          change in half-life accomplished in this way is typically small. For
          instance, a study performed by B. Wang et al and published in the
          European Physical Journal A was able to measure that the electron
          capture half-life of beryllium-7 was made 0.9% longer by surrounding
          the beryllium atoms with palladium atoms.




          If the 0.05% uncertainty on the half-life of $^{238}$U comes from random environmental factors, it would indeed be acceptable to consider them as an independent source of error for each sample.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 2




            $begingroup$
            As far as I know, this only applies if the uncertainties are independent. If the uncertainty is in the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238), the uncertainties are correlated and you can't reduce them by making more measurements.
            $endgroup$
            – Mark
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark You are right. I've added something to my answer. Have a look.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark I just added something about the natural variation of radioactive decay half-life. I think that explain that they treat the errors as independent.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            The page you link to lists three potential mechanisms for changing the decay rate (and thus the half-life) of radioactive elements: time dilation, electron density change and bombardment with high-energy radiation. The first doesn't apply on Earth (well, technically it does, but the time dilation due to Earth's gravity is vanishingly small), the second only affects elements that decay via electron capture (Uranium doesn't), ...
            $endgroup$
            – Ilmari Karonen
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @IlmariKaronen Yes, but the OP doesn't seem to be content with just "a good approximation" as the whole question revolve around a 0.05% change in $^{238}$U half-life, a pretty tiny change.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago











          Your Answer





          StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
          return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
          StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
          StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
          });
          });
          }, "mathjax-editing");

          StackExchange.ready(function() {
          var channelOptions = {
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "553"
          };
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
          createEditor();
          });
          }
          else {
          createEditor();
          }
          });

          function createEditor() {
          StackExchange.prepareEditor({
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader: {
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          },
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          });


          }
          });






          sidharth chhabra is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fearthscience.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f16377%2funwarranted-claim-of-higher-degree-of-accuracy-in-zircon-geochronology%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          7












          $begingroup$

          I can't be entirely sure but I'll make an informed guess:



          That value doesn't come for a single measurement. Therefore, if the error in the age of a single sample is $pm125$ kyr, you just need to average 16 samples to get it down to $pm31$ kyr.



          The uncertainty in the addition (or substraction) of two or more quantities is equal to the square root of the addition of the squares of the uncertainties of each quantity (assuming they arise from random errors). For example, if we have quantity A with uncertainty $sigma_a$ and quantity B with uncertainty $sigma_b$, the error in the quantity $C=A+B$ would be:



          $sigma_c=sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}$



          And if we call M to the average between A and B. The uncertainty in the average is



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}}{2}$



          So if we average 16 samples with $sigma=125$ kyr, the uncertainty in the average would be



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{16 sigma^2}}{16}=frac{sqrt{16 times 125^2}}{16}=31$ kyr



          Uncertainty propagation can be seen in the abstract of the article you refer to:




          The extinction occurred between 251.941 ± 0.037 and 251.880 ± 0.031
          Mya, an interval of 60 ± 48 ka.




          Where the ±48 ka comes from?



          $sqrt{37^2+31^2}=48$



          This treatment of uncertainties assumes that uncertainties are independent of each other. As @Mark pointed in the comments, this won't be the case if the uncertainty comes from "the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238)".



          This is: if you measure something with a "yard-stick" that have the wrong size, you can't reduce the resulting error by just averaging many measurements.



          I don't know enough of geochronology to understand all the different errors they report. But the simple example in the abstract cite I presented above shows that they are indeed treating those errors as independent. Otherwise the reported interval error (±48 ka) would not make sense.



          If one significant source of error is indeed the uncertainty in the half-life of $^{238}$U, and there is an exact value for this half-life. Then, it would be wrong to treat these errors as independent. However, maybe an exact value of the half-life doesn't exist, and what they meant is that the half-life value can vary a 0.05%. I don't know. This is something to look into if you want to figure out if the treatment of errors they do is correct. However, after a quick google search I found that radioactive half-life can indeed vary by a small fraction due to environmental conditions, this article explains pretty well the phenomena. Here a short excerpt:




          ...radioactive half-life of an atom can depend on how it is bonded to
          other atoms. Simply by changing the neighboring atoms that are bonded
          to a radioactive isotope, we can change its half-life. However, the
          change in half-life accomplished in this way is typically small. For
          instance, a study performed by B. Wang et al and published in the
          European Physical Journal A was able to measure that the electron
          capture half-life of beryllium-7 was made 0.9% longer by surrounding
          the beryllium atoms with palladium atoms.




          If the 0.05% uncertainty on the half-life of $^{238}$U comes from random environmental factors, it would indeed be acceptable to consider them as an independent source of error for each sample.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 2




            $begingroup$
            As far as I know, this only applies if the uncertainties are independent. If the uncertainty is in the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238), the uncertainties are correlated and you can't reduce them by making more measurements.
            $endgroup$
            – Mark
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark You are right. I've added something to my answer. Have a look.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark I just added something about the natural variation of radioactive decay half-life. I think that explain that they treat the errors as independent.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            The page you link to lists three potential mechanisms for changing the decay rate (and thus the half-life) of radioactive elements: time dilation, electron density change and bombardment with high-energy radiation. The first doesn't apply on Earth (well, technically it does, but the time dilation due to Earth's gravity is vanishingly small), the second only affects elements that decay via electron capture (Uranium doesn't), ...
            $endgroup$
            – Ilmari Karonen
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @IlmariKaronen Yes, but the OP doesn't seem to be content with just "a good approximation" as the whole question revolve around a 0.05% change in $^{238}$U half-life, a pretty tiny change.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago
















          7












          $begingroup$

          I can't be entirely sure but I'll make an informed guess:



          That value doesn't come for a single measurement. Therefore, if the error in the age of a single sample is $pm125$ kyr, you just need to average 16 samples to get it down to $pm31$ kyr.



          The uncertainty in the addition (or substraction) of two or more quantities is equal to the square root of the addition of the squares of the uncertainties of each quantity (assuming they arise from random errors). For example, if we have quantity A with uncertainty $sigma_a$ and quantity B with uncertainty $sigma_b$, the error in the quantity $C=A+B$ would be:



          $sigma_c=sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}$



          And if we call M to the average between A and B. The uncertainty in the average is



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}}{2}$



          So if we average 16 samples with $sigma=125$ kyr, the uncertainty in the average would be



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{16 sigma^2}}{16}=frac{sqrt{16 times 125^2}}{16}=31$ kyr



          Uncertainty propagation can be seen in the abstract of the article you refer to:




          The extinction occurred between 251.941 ± 0.037 and 251.880 ± 0.031
          Mya, an interval of 60 ± 48 ka.




          Where the ±48 ka comes from?



          $sqrt{37^2+31^2}=48$



          This treatment of uncertainties assumes that uncertainties are independent of each other. As @Mark pointed in the comments, this won't be the case if the uncertainty comes from "the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238)".



          This is: if you measure something with a "yard-stick" that have the wrong size, you can't reduce the resulting error by just averaging many measurements.



          I don't know enough of geochronology to understand all the different errors they report. But the simple example in the abstract cite I presented above shows that they are indeed treating those errors as independent. Otherwise the reported interval error (±48 ka) would not make sense.



          If one significant source of error is indeed the uncertainty in the half-life of $^{238}$U, and there is an exact value for this half-life. Then, it would be wrong to treat these errors as independent. However, maybe an exact value of the half-life doesn't exist, and what they meant is that the half-life value can vary a 0.05%. I don't know. This is something to look into if you want to figure out if the treatment of errors they do is correct. However, after a quick google search I found that radioactive half-life can indeed vary by a small fraction due to environmental conditions, this article explains pretty well the phenomena. Here a short excerpt:




          ...radioactive half-life of an atom can depend on how it is bonded to
          other atoms. Simply by changing the neighboring atoms that are bonded
          to a radioactive isotope, we can change its half-life. However, the
          change in half-life accomplished in this way is typically small. For
          instance, a study performed by B. Wang et al and published in the
          European Physical Journal A was able to measure that the electron
          capture half-life of beryllium-7 was made 0.9% longer by surrounding
          the beryllium atoms with palladium atoms.




          If the 0.05% uncertainty on the half-life of $^{238}$U comes from random environmental factors, it would indeed be acceptable to consider them as an independent source of error for each sample.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 2




            $begingroup$
            As far as I know, this only applies if the uncertainties are independent. If the uncertainty is in the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238), the uncertainties are correlated and you can't reduce them by making more measurements.
            $endgroup$
            – Mark
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark You are right. I've added something to my answer. Have a look.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark I just added something about the natural variation of radioactive decay half-life. I think that explain that they treat the errors as independent.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            The page you link to lists three potential mechanisms for changing the decay rate (and thus the half-life) of radioactive elements: time dilation, electron density change and bombardment with high-energy radiation. The first doesn't apply on Earth (well, technically it does, but the time dilation due to Earth's gravity is vanishingly small), the second only affects elements that decay via electron capture (Uranium doesn't), ...
            $endgroup$
            – Ilmari Karonen
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @IlmariKaronen Yes, but the OP doesn't seem to be content with just "a good approximation" as the whole question revolve around a 0.05% change in $^{238}$U half-life, a pretty tiny change.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago














          7












          7








          7





          $begingroup$

          I can't be entirely sure but I'll make an informed guess:



          That value doesn't come for a single measurement. Therefore, if the error in the age of a single sample is $pm125$ kyr, you just need to average 16 samples to get it down to $pm31$ kyr.



          The uncertainty in the addition (or substraction) of two or more quantities is equal to the square root of the addition of the squares of the uncertainties of each quantity (assuming they arise from random errors). For example, if we have quantity A with uncertainty $sigma_a$ and quantity B with uncertainty $sigma_b$, the error in the quantity $C=A+B$ would be:



          $sigma_c=sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}$



          And if we call M to the average between A and B. The uncertainty in the average is



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}}{2}$



          So if we average 16 samples with $sigma=125$ kyr, the uncertainty in the average would be



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{16 sigma^2}}{16}=frac{sqrt{16 times 125^2}}{16}=31$ kyr



          Uncertainty propagation can be seen in the abstract of the article you refer to:




          The extinction occurred between 251.941 ± 0.037 and 251.880 ± 0.031
          Mya, an interval of 60 ± 48 ka.




          Where the ±48 ka comes from?



          $sqrt{37^2+31^2}=48$



          This treatment of uncertainties assumes that uncertainties are independent of each other. As @Mark pointed in the comments, this won't be the case if the uncertainty comes from "the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238)".



          This is: if you measure something with a "yard-stick" that have the wrong size, you can't reduce the resulting error by just averaging many measurements.



          I don't know enough of geochronology to understand all the different errors they report. But the simple example in the abstract cite I presented above shows that they are indeed treating those errors as independent. Otherwise the reported interval error (±48 ka) would not make sense.



          If one significant source of error is indeed the uncertainty in the half-life of $^{238}$U, and there is an exact value for this half-life. Then, it would be wrong to treat these errors as independent. However, maybe an exact value of the half-life doesn't exist, and what they meant is that the half-life value can vary a 0.05%. I don't know. This is something to look into if you want to figure out if the treatment of errors they do is correct. However, after a quick google search I found that radioactive half-life can indeed vary by a small fraction due to environmental conditions, this article explains pretty well the phenomena. Here a short excerpt:




          ...radioactive half-life of an atom can depend on how it is bonded to
          other atoms. Simply by changing the neighboring atoms that are bonded
          to a radioactive isotope, we can change its half-life. However, the
          change in half-life accomplished in this way is typically small. For
          instance, a study performed by B. Wang et al and published in the
          European Physical Journal A was able to measure that the electron
          capture half-life of beryllium-7 was made 0.9% longer by surrounding
          the beryllium atoms with palladium atoms.




          If the 0.05% uncertainty on the half-life of $^{238}$U comes from random environmental factors, it would indeed be acceptable to consider them as an independent source of error for each sample.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          I can't be entirely sure but I'll make an informed guess:



          That value doesn't come for a single measurement. Therefore, if the error in the age of a single sample is $pm125$ kyr, you just need to average 16 samples to get it down to $pm31$ kyr.



          The uncertainty in the addition (or substraction) of two or more quantities is equal to the square root of the addition of the squares of the uncertainties of each quantity (assuming they arise from random errors). For example, if we have quantity A with uncertainty $sigma_a$ and quantity B with uncertainty $sigma_b$, the error in the quantity $C=A+B$ would be:



          $sigma_c=sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}$



          And if we call M to the average between A and B. The uncertainty in the average is



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{sigma_a^2+sigma_b^2}}{2}$



          So if we average 16 samples with $sigma=125$ kyr, the uncertainty in the average would be



          $sigma_m=frac{sqrt{16 sigma^2}}{16}=frac{sqrt{16 times 125^2}}{16}=31$ kyr



          Uncertainty propagation can be seen in the abstract of the article you refer to:




          The extinction occurred between 251.941 ± 0.037 and 251.880 ± 0.031
          Mya, an interval of 60 ± 48 ka.




          Where the ±48 ka comes from?



          $sqrt{37^2+31^2}=48$



          This treatment of uncertainties assumes that uncertainties are independent of each other. As @Mark pointed in the comments, this won't be the case if the uncertainty comes from "the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238)".



          This is: if you measure something with a "yard-stick" that have the wrong size, you can't reduce the resulting error by just averaging many measurements.



          I don't know enough of geochronology to understand all the different errors they report. But the simple example in the abstract cite I presented above shows that they are indeed treating those errors as independent. Otherwise the reported interval error (±48 ka) would not make sense.



          If one significant source of error is indeed the uncertainty in the half-life of $^{238}$U, and there is an exact value for this half-life. Then, it would be wrong to treat these errors as independent. However, maybe an exact value of the half-life doesn't exist, and what they meant is that the half-life value can vary a 0.05%. I don't know. This is something to look into if you want to figure out if the treatment of errors they do is correct. However, after a quick google search I found that radioactive half-life can indeed vary by a small fraction due to environmental conditions, this article explains pretty well the phenomena. Here a short excerpt:




          ...radioactive half-life of an atom can depend on how it is bonded to
          other atoms. Simply by changing the neighboring atoms that are bonded
          to a radioactive isotope, we can change its half-life. However, the
          change in half-life accomplished in this way is typically small. For
          instance, a study performed by B. Wang et al and published in the
          European Physical Journal A was able to measure that the electron
          capture half-life of beryllium-7 was made 0.9% longer by surrounding
          the beryllium atoms with palladium atoms.




          If the 0.05% uncertainty on the half-life of $^{238}$U comes from random environmental factors, it would indeed be acceptable to consider them as an independent source of error for each sample.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 5 hours ago

























          answered 7 hours ago









          Camilo RadaCamilo Rada

          12.4k33882




          12.4k33882








          • 2




            $begingroup$
            As far as I know, this only applies if the uncertainties are independent. If the uncertainty is in the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238), the uncertainties are correlated and you can't reduce them by making more measurements.
            $endgroup$
            – Mark
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark You are right. I've added something to my answer. Have a look.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark I just added something about the natural variation of radioactive decay half-life. I think that explain that they treat the errors as independent.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            The page you link to lists three potential mechanisms for changing the decay rate (and thus the half-life) of radioactive elements: time dilation, electron density change and bombardment with high-energy radiation. The first doesn't apply on Earth (well, technically it does, but the time dilation due to Earth's gravity is vanishingly small), the second only affects elements that decay via electron capture (Uranium doesn't), ...
            $endgroup$
            – Ilmari Karonen
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @IlmariKaronen Yes, but the OP doesn't seem to be content with just "a good approximation" as the whole question revolve around a 0.05% change in $^{238}$U half-life, a pretty tiny change.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago














          • 2




            $begingroup$
            As far as I know, this only applies if the uncertainties are independent. If the uncertainty is in the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238), the uncertainties are correlated and you can't reduce them by making more measurements.
            $endgroup$
            – Mark
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark You are right. I've added something to my answer. Have a look.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @Mark I just added something about the natural variation of radioactive decay half-life. I think that explain that they treat the errors as independent.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            The page you link to lists three potential mechanisms for changing the decay rate (and thus the half-life) of radioactive elements: time dilation, electron density change and bombardment with high-energy radiation. The first doesn't apply on Earth (well, technically it does, but the time dilation due to Earth's gravity is vanishingly small), the second only affects elements that decay via electron capture (Uranium doesn't), ...
            $endgroup$
            – Ilmari Karonen
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @IlmariKaronen Yes, but the OP doesn't seem to be content with just "a good approximation" as the whole question revolve around a 0.05% change in $^{238}$U half-life, a pretty tiny change.
            $endgroup$
            – Camilo Rada
            5 hours ago








          2




          2




          $begingroup$
          As far as I know, this only applies if the uncertainties are independent. If the uncertainty is in the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238), the uncertainties are correlated and you can't reduce them by making more measurements.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark
          6 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          As far as I know, this only applies if the uncertainties are independent. If the uncertainty is in the length of your measuring stick (the half-life of U-238), the uncertainties are correlated and you can't reduce them by making more measurements.
          $endgroup$
          – Mark
          6 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          @Mark You are right. I've added something to my answer. Have a look.
          $endgroup$
          – Camilo Rada
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @Mark You are right. I've added something to my answer. Have a look.
          $endgroup$
          – Camilo Rada
          5 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          @Mark I just added something about the natural variation of radioactive decay half-life. I think that explain that they treat the errors as independent.
          $endgroup$
          – Camilo Rada
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @Mark I just added something about the natural variation of radioactive decay half-life. I think that explain that they treat the errors as independent.
          $endgroup$
          – Camilo Rada
          5 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          The page you link to lists three potential mechanisms for changing the decay rate (and thus the half-life) of radioactive elements: time dilation, electron density change and bombardment with high-energy radiation. The first doesn't apply on Earth (well, technically it does, but the time dilation due to Earth's gravity is vanishingly small), the second only affects elements that decay via electron capture (Uranium doesn't), ...
          $endgroup$
          – Ilmari Karonen
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          The page you link to lists three potential mechanisms for changing the decay rate (and thus the half-life) of radioactive elements: time dilation, electron density change and bombardment with high-energy radiation. The first doesn't apply on Earth (well, technically it does, but the time dilation due to Earth's gravity is vanishingly small), the second only affects elements that decay via electron capture (Uranium doesn't), ...
          $endgroup$
          – Ilmari Karonen
          5 hours ago




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          @IlmariKaronen Yes, but the OP doesn't seem to be content with just "a good approximation" as the whole question revolve around a 0.05% change in $^{238}$U half-life, a pretty tiny change.
          $endgroup$
          – Camilo Rada
          5 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @IlmariKaronen Yes, but the OP doesn't seem to be content with just "a good approximation" as the whole question revolve around a 0.05% change in $^{238}$U half-life, a pretty tiny change.
          $endgroup$
          – Camilo Rada
          5 hours ago










          sidharth chhabra is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          sidharth chhabra is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













          sidharth chhabra is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












          sidharth chhabra is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















          Thanks for contributing an answer to Earth Science Stack Exchange!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid



          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


          Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fearthscience.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f16377%2funwarranted-claim-of-higher-degree-of-accuracy-in-zircon-geochronology%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          If I really need a card on my start hand, how many mulligans make sense? [duplicate]

          Alcedinidae

          Can an atomic nucleus contain both particles and antiparticles? [duplicate]