Removing persist from a creature — will it still trigger?
Suppose there is a creature with persist on the battlefield, for example Safehold Elite. The creature loses persist somehow, for example because a player casts Turn to Frog on it. The creature then dies, for example due to combat damage. I know that the creature card will have persist again once it's in the graveyard. Does the persist trigger go off, or does the creature simply die?
magic-the-gathering
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Suppose there is a creature with persist on the battlefield, for example Safehold Elite. The creature loses persist somehow, for example because a player casts Turn to Frog on it. The creature then dies, for example due to combat damage. I know that the creature card will have persist again once it's in the graveyard. Does the persist trigger go off, or does the creature simply die?
magic-the-gathering
edited yesterday
Kevin
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asked Jan 7 at 0:20
vpixievpixie
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vpixie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Suppose there is a creature with persist on the battlefield, for example Safehold Elite. The creature loses persist somehow, for example because a player casts Turn to Frog on it. The creature then dies, for example due to combat damage. I know that the creature card will have persist again once it's in the graveyard. Does the persist trigger go off, or does the creature simply die?
magic-the-gathering
edited yesterday
Kevin
1,863722
asked Jan 7 at 0:20
vpixievpixie
282
New contributor
vpixie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Suppose there is a creature with persist on the battlefield, for example Safehold Elite. The creature loses persist somehow, for example because a player casts Turn to Frog on it. The creature then dies, for example due to combat damage. I know that the creature card will have persist again once it's in the graveyard. Does the persist trigger go off, or does the creature simply die?
magic-the-gathering
magic-the-gathering
edited yesterday
Kevin
1,863722
asked Jan 7 at 0:20
vpixievpixie
282
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vpixie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited yesterday
Kevin
1,863722
asked Jan 7 at 0:20
vpixievpixie
282
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vpixie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited yesterday
Kevin
1,863722
edited yesterday
Kevin
1,863722
edited yesterday
Kevin
1,863722
1,863722
asked Jan 7 at 0:20
vpixievpixie
282
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vpixie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked Jan 7 at 0:20
vpixievpixie
282
asked Jan 7 at 0:20
vpixievpixie
282
282
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No, persist only triggers when it was on the creature at the moment it died.
Normally, triggered abilities only work when they exist by the time the relevant event has happened. However, in the example case of a creature with active persist, by the time that creature has hit the graveyard, persist is no longer active because it's a creature ability that only works on the battlefield. That would mean that abilities such as persist would never work.
Therefore, a zone-change trigger ability such as persist has to look back in time to work properly. Conversely, if persist is not on the creature when it would look back in time, it won't trigger. It doesn't matter if the new object in the graveyard has persist.
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a card leaves a graveyard, and abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library.
answered 2 days ago
HackworthHackworth
25.1k265114
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702.78a Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.”
Key here is "triggered ability", which happen as the event occurs.
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers.
At the time the event happens, the permanent doesn't have Persist, so nothing triggers. It's only after the event concludes that Persist returns to the card.
answered Jan 7 at 6:06
Xavier ShayXavier Shay
1573
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1
While this answer has the correct conclusion, the explanation is not quite correct: most triggered abilities are checked for after the event occurs, not as it occurs. Persist specifically works this way because leaves-the-battlefield abilities look back in time as described in the other answer. An ability with a slightly different trigger condition like on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth would result in a different answer here.
– murgatroid99♦
yesterday
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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No, persist only triggers when it was on the creature at the moment it died.
Normally, triggered abilities only work when they exist by the time the relevant event has happened. However, in the example case of a creature with active persist, by the time that creature has hit the graveyard, persist is no longer active because it's a creature ability that only works on the battlefield. That would mean that abilities such as persist would never work.
Therefore, a zone-change trigger ability such as persist has to look back in time to work properly. Conversely, if persist is not on the creature when it would look back in time, it won't trigger. It doesn't matter if the new object in the graveyard has persist.
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a card leaves a graveyard, and abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library.
answered 2 days ago
HackworthHackworth
25.1k265114
add a comment |
No, persist only triggers when it was on the creature at the moment it died.
Normally, triggered abilities only work when they exist by the time the relevant event has happened. However, in the example case of a creature with active persist, by the time that creature has hit the graveyard, persist is no longer active because it's a creature ability that only works on the battlefield. That would mean that abilities such as persist would never work.
Therefore, a zone-change trigger ability such as persist has to look back in time to work properly. Conversely, if persist is not on the creature when it would look back in time, it won't trigger. It doesn't matter if the new object in the graveyard has persist.
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a card leaves a graveyard, and abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library.
answered 2 days ago
HackworthHackworth
25.1k265114
add a comment |
No, persist only triggers when it was on the creature at the moment it died.
Normally, triggered abilities only work when they exist by the time the relevant event has happened. However, in the example case of a creature with active persist, by the time that creature has hit the graveyard, persist is no longer active because it's a creature ability that only works on the battlefield. That would mean that abilities such as persist would never work.
Therefore, a zone-change trigger ability such as persist has to look back in time to work properly. Conversely, if persist is not on the creature when it would look back in time, it won't trigger. It doesn't matter if the new object in the graveyard has persist.
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a card leaves a graveyard, and abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library.
answered 2 days ago
HackworthHackworth
25.1k265114
No, persist only triggers when it was on the creature at the moment it died.
Normally, triggered abilities only work when they exist by the time the relevant event has happened. However, in the example case of a creature with active persist, by the time that creature has hit the graveyard, persist is no longer active because it's a creature ability that only works on the battlefield. That would mean that abilities such as persist would never work.
Therefore, a zone-change trigger ability such as persist has to look back in time to work properly. Conversely, if persist is not on the creature when it would look back in time, it won't trigger. It doesn't matter if the new object in the graveyard has persist.
603.10a Some zone-change triggers look back in time. These are leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a card leaves a graveyard, and abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library.
answered 2 days ago
HackworthHackworth
25.1k265114
answered 2 days ago
HackworthHackworth
25.1k265114
answered 2 days ago
HackworthHackworth
25.1k265114
answered 2 days ago
HackworthHackworth
25.1k265114
25.1k265114
add a comment |
add a comment |
702.78a Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.”
Key here is "triggered ability", which happen as the event occurs.
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers.
At the time the event happens, the permanent doesn't have Persist, so nothing triggers. It's only after the event concludes that Persist returns to the card.
answered Jan 7 at 6:06
Xavier ShayXavier Shay
1573
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Xavier Shay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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1
While this answer has the correct conclusion, the explanation is not quite correct: most triggered abilities are checked for after the event occurs, not as it occurs. Persist specifically works this way because leaves-the-battlefield abilities look back in time as described in the other answer. An ability with a slightly different trigger condition like on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth would result in a different answer here.
– murgatroid99♦
yesterday
add a comment |
702.78a Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.”
Key here is "triggered ability", which happen as the event occurs.
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers.
At the time the event happens, the permanent doesn't have Persist, so nothing triggers. It's only after the event concludes that Persist returns to the card.
answered Jan 7 at 6:06
Xavier ShayXavier Shay
1573
New contributor
Xavier Shay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
While this answer has the correct conclusion, the explanation is not quite correct: most triggered abilities are checked for after the event occurs, not as it occurs. Persist specifically works this way because leaves-the-battlefield abilities look back in time as described in the other answer. An ability with a slightly different trigger condition like on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth would result in a different answer here.
– murgatroid99♦
yesterday
add a comment |
702.78a Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.”
Key here is "triggered ability", which happen as the event occurs.
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers.
At the time the event happens, the permanent doesn't have Persist, so nothing triggers. It's only after the event concludes that Persist returns to the card.
answered Jan 7 at 6:06
Xavier ShayXavier Shay
1573
New contributor
Xavier Shay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
702.78a Persist is a triggered ability. “Persist” means “When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner’s control with a -1/-1 counter on it.”
Key here is "triggered ability", which happen as the event occurs.
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers.
At the time the event happens, the permanent doesn't have Persist, so nothing triggers. It's only after the event concludes that Persist returns to the card.
answered Jan 7 at 6:06
Xavier ShayXavier Shay
1573
New contributor
Xavier Shay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered Jan 7 at 6:06
Xavier ShayXavier Shay
1573
New contributor
Xavier Shay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered Jan 7 at 6:06
Xavier ShayXavier Shay
1573
answered Jan 7 at 6:06
Xavier ShayXavier Shay
1573
1573
New contributor
Xavier Shay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Xavier Shay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Xavier Shay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
While this answer has the correct conclusion, the explanation is not quite correct: most triggered abilities are checked for after the event occurs, not as it occurs. Persist specifically works this way because leaves-the-battlefield abilities look back in time as described in the other answer. An ability with a slightly different trigger condition like on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth would result in a different answer here.
– murgatroid99♦
yesterday
add a comment |
1
While this answer has the correct conclusion, the explanation is not quite correct: most triggered abilities are checked for after the event occurs, not as it occurs. Persist specifically works this way because leaves-the-battlefield abilities look back in time as described in the other answer. An ability with a slightly different trigger condition like on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth would result in a different answer here.
– murgatroid99♦
yesterday
1
1
While this answer has the correct conclusion, the explanation is not quite correct: most triggered abilities are checked for after the event occurs, not as it occurs. Persist specifically works this way because leaves-the-battlefield abilities look back in time as described in the other answer. An ability with a slightly different trigger condition like on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth would result in a different answer here.
– murgatroid99♦
yesterday
While this answer has the correct conclusion, the explanation is not quite correct: most triggered abilities are checked for after the event occurs, not as it occurs. Persist specifically works this way because leaves-the-battlefield abilities look back in time as described in the other answer. An ability with a slightly different trigger condition like on Kozilek, Butcher of Truth would result in a different answer here.
– murgatroid99♦
yesterday
add a comment |
vpixie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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