An inconsistency in Julian Grenfell's 'Into Battle'
Grenfell's First World War poem Into Battle contains this verse :
The blackbird sings to him: "Brother, brother,
If this be the last song you shall sing,
Sing well, for you may not sing another;
Brother, sing."
'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. If this be the last song, then you will not (not, 'may not') sing another.
Is there a puzzle here, an inconsistency, or have I missed the meaning ?
meaning poetry
edited 2 hours ago
agc
2,508625
asked Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas
1043
|
show 1 more comment
Grenfell's First World War poem Into Battle contains this verse :
The blackbird sings to him: "Brother, brother,
If this be the last song you shall sing,
Sing well, for you may not sing another;
Brother, sing."
'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. If this be the last song, then you will not (not, 'may not') sing another.
Is there a puzzle here, an inconsistency, or have I missed the meaning ?
meaning poetry
edited 2 hours ago
agc
2,508625
asked Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas
1043
2
I don't see why you say 'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. Fairly obviously may not sing = might not sing in this context, rather than will not be permitted to sing, so it's structurally the same as If you're emigrating tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as we may never meet again.
– FumbleFingers
Dec 23 '17 at 16:48
I don't think the parallel quite holds. If this be the last song, then he cannot sing again. If I emigrate, it is not the case that we cannot meet again - only that we might not. 'Might not' could mean 'quite likely will not' : but if this be the last song, he very definitely will not. If 'might not' has a permissive sense and indicates 'will not be allowed to', it is again inappropriate since, as the context implies, he will be dead and beyond permission or prohibition.
– Geoffrey Thomas
Dec 23 '17 at 18:58
Yes: there's a tautology of the should-be-avoided subset.
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:06
@FF No: the parallel is with 'If you're definitely emigrating by trans-Atlantic liner tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as you may not be in this country the day after that.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:08
I think you're right that "may not sing another" is an understatement. But I'm not surprised; looking for logical consistency in poetry is often futile.
– Andreas Blass
Dec 24 '17 at 2:14
|
show 1 more comment
Grenfell's First World War poem Into Battle contains this verse :
The blackbird sings to him: "Brother, brother,
If this be the last song you shall sing,
Sing well, for you may not sing another;
Brother, sing."
'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. If this be the last song, then you will not (not, 'may not') sing another.
Is there a puzzle here, an inconsistency, or have I missed the meaning ?
meaning poetry
edited 2 hours ago
agc
2,508625
asked Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas
1043
Grenfell's First World War poem Into Battle contains this verse :
The blackbird sings to him: "Brother, brother,
If this be the last song you shall sing,
Sing well, for you may not sing another;
Brother, sing."
'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. If this be the last song, then you will not (not, 'may not') sing another.
Is there a puzzle here, an inconsistency, or have I missed the meaning ?
meaning poetry
meaning poetry
edited 2 hours ago
agc
2,508625
asked Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas
1043
edited 2 hours ago
agc
2,508625
asked Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas
1043
edited 2 hours ago
agc
2,508625
edited 2 hours ago
agc
2,508625
edited 2 hours ago
agc
2,508625
2,508625
asked Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas
1043
asked Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas
1043
asked Dec 23 '17 at 16:23
Geoffrey ThomasGeoffrey Thomas
1043
1043
2
I don't see why you say 'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. Fairly obviously may not sing = might not sing in this context, rather than will not be permitted to sing, so it's structurally the same as If you're emigrating tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as we may never meet again.
– FumbleFingers
Dec 23 '17 at 16:48
I don't think the parallel quite holds. If this be the last song, then he cannot sing again. If I emigrate, it is not the case that we cannot meet again - only that we might not. 'Might not' could mean 'quite likely will not' : but if this be the last song, he very definitely will not. If 'might not' has a permissive sense and indicates 'will not be allowed to', it is again inappropriate since, as the context implies, he will be dead and beyond permission or prohibition.
– Geoffrey Thomas
Dec 23 '17 at 18:58
Yes: there's a tautology of the should-be-avoided subset.
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:06
@FF No: the parallel is with 'If you're definitely emigrating by trans-Atlantic liner tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as you may not be in this country the day after that.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:08
I think you're right that "may not sing another" is an understatement. But I'm not surprised; looking for logical consistency in poetry is often futile.
– Andreas Blass
Dec 24 '17 at 2:14
|
show 1 more comment
2
I don't see why you say 'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. Fairly obviously may not sing = might not sing in this context, rather than will not be permitted to sing, so it's structurally the same as If you're emigrating tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as we may never meet again.
– FumbleFingers
Dec 23 '17 at 16:48
I don't think the parallel quite holds. If this be the last song, then he cannot sing again. If I emigrate, it is not the case that we cannot meet again - only that we might not. 'Might not' could mean 'quite likely will not' : but if this be the last song, he very definitely will not. If 'might not' has a permissive sense and indicates 'will not be allowed to', it is again inappropriate since, as the context implies, he will be dead and beyond permission or prohibition.
– Geoffrey Thomas
Dec 23 '17 at 18:58
Yes: there's a tautology of the should-be-avoided subset.
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:06
@FF No: the parallel is with 'If you're definitely emigrating by trans-Atlantic liner tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as you may not be in this country the day after that.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:08
I think you're right that "may not sing another" is an understatement. But I'm not surprised; looking for logical consistency in poetry is often futile.
– Andreas Blass
Dec 24 '17 at 2:14
2
2
I don't see why you say 'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. Fairly obviously may not sing = might not sing in this context, rather than will not be permitted to sing, so it's structurally the same as If you're emigrating tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as we may never meet again.
– FumbleFingers
Dec 23 '17 at 16:48
I don't see why you say 'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. Fairly obviously may not sing = might not sing in this context, rather than will not be permitted to sing, so it's structurally the same as If you're emigrating tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as we may never meet again.
– FumbleFingers
Dec 23 '17 at 16:48
I don't think the parallel quite holds. If this be the last song, then he cannot sing again. If I emigrate, it is not the case that we cannot meet again - only that we might not. 'Might not' could mean 'quite likely will not' : but if this be the last song, he very definitely will not. If 'might not' has a permissive sense and indicates 'will not be allowed to', it is again inappropriate since, as the context implies, he will be dead and beyond permission or prohibition.
– Geoffrey Thomas
Dec 23 '17 at 18:58
I don't think the parallel quite holds. If this be the last song, then he cannot sing again. If I emigrate, it is not the case that we cannot meet again - only that we might not. 'Might not' could mean 'quite likely will not' : but if this be the last song, he very definitely will not. If 'might not' has a permissive sense and indicates 'will not be allowed to', it is again inappropriate since, as the context implies, he will be dead and beyond permission or prohibition.
– Geoffrey Thomas
Dec 23 '17 at 18:58
Yes: there's a tautology of the should-be-avoided subset.
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:06
Yes: there's a tautology of the should-be-avoided subset.
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:06
@FF No: the parallel is with 'If you're definitely emigrating by trans-Atlantic liner tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as you may not be in this country the day after that.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:08
@FF No: the parallel is with 'If you're definitely emigrating by trans-Atlantic liner tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as you may not be in this country the day after that.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:08
I think you're right that "may not sing another" is an understatement. But I'm not surprised; looking for logical consistency in poetry is often futile.
– Andreas Blass
Dec 24 '17 at 2:14
I think you're right that "may not sing another" is an understatement. But I'm not surprised; looking for logical consistency in poetry is often futile.
– Andreas Blass
Dec 24 '17 at 2:14
|
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
- One interpretation might be that the postulating blackbird refers
first to the last possible song to be sung in this world. Then,
after death, the poet may (or may not) have a chance to sing again
in the next world, if he should happily travel to a musical
hereafter...
Or the bird is just reminding the poet that there's no earthly second
chance, in which case "may" is formally denying permission:
may modal verb (PERMISSION)
formal used to ask or give permission:
A reader may borrow up to
six books at any one time.
"May I help myself to some more food?"
"Yes, of course."
Hi, my name's Tiffany. How may I help you?
-- Cambridge Dictionary
answered 2 hours ago
agcagc
2,508625
Hmm. Perhaps that last song could be a decisive audition?
– agc
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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active
oldest
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active
oldest
votes
- One interpretation might be that the postulating blackbird refers
first to the last possible song to be sung in this world. Then,
after death, the poet may (or may not) have a chance to sing again
in the next world, if he should happily travel to a musical
hereafter...
Or the bird is just reminding the poet that there's no earthly second
chance, in which case "may" is formally denying permission:
may modal verb (PERMISSION)
formal used to ask or give permission:
A reader may borrow up to
six books at any one time.
"May I help myself to some more food?"
"Yes, of course."
Hi, my name's Tiffany. How may I help you?
-- Cambridge Dictionary
answered 2 hours ago
agcagc
2,508625
Hmm. Perhaps that last song could be a decisive audition?
– agc
2 hours ago
add a comment |
- One interpretation might be that the postulating blackbird refers
first to the last possible song to be sung in this world. Then,
after death, the poet may (or may not) have a chance to sing again
in the next world, if he should happily travel to a musical
hereafter...
Or the bird is just reminding the poet that there's no earthly second
chance, in which case "may" is formally denying permission:
may modal verb (PERMISSION)
formal used to ask or give permission:
A reader may borrow up to
six books at any one time.
"May I help myself to some more food?"
"Yes, of course."
Hi, my name's Tiffany. How may I help you?
-- Cambridge Dictionary
answered 2 hours ago
agcagc
2,508625
Hmm. Perhaps that last song could be a decisive audition?
– agc
2 hours ago
add a comment |
- One interpretation might be that the postulating blackbird refers
first to the last possible song to be sung in this world. Then,
after death, the poet may (or may not) have a chance to sing again
in the next world, if he should happily travel to a musical
hereafter...
Or the bird is just reminding the poet that there's no earthly second
chance, in which case "may" is formally denying permission:
may modal verb (PERMISSION)
formal used to ask or give permission:
A reader may borrow up to
six books at any one time.
"May I help myself to some more food?"
"Yes, of course."
Hi, my name's Tiffany. How may I help you?
-- Cambridge Dictionary
answered 2 hours ago
agcagc
2,508625
- One interpretation might be that the postulating blackbird refers
first to the last possible song to be sung in this world. Then,
after death, the poet may (or may not) have a chance to sing again
in the next world, if he should happily travel to a musical
hereafter...
Or the bird is just reminding the poet that there's no earthly second
chance, in which case "may" is formally denying permission:
may modal verb (PERMISSION)
formal used to ask or give permission:
A reader may borrow up to
six books at any one time.
"May I help myself to some more food?"
"Yes, of course."
Hi, my name's Tiffany. How may I help you?
-- Cambridge Dictionary
answered 2 hours ago
agcagc
2,508625
edited 2 hours ago
answered 2 hours ago
agcagc
2,508625
answered 2 hours ago
agcagc
2,508625
answered 2 hours ago
agcagc
2,508625
2,508625
Hmm. Perhaps that last song could be a decisive audition?
– agc
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Hmm. Perhaps that last song could be a decisive audition?
– agc
2 hours ago
Hmm. Perhaps that last song could be a decisive audition?
– agc
2 hours ago
Hmm. Perhaps that last song could be a decisive audition?
– agc
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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2
I don't see why you say 'If' and 'may' do not appear to match. Fairly obviously may not sing = might not sing in this context, rather than will not be permitted to sing, so it's structurally the same as If you're emigrating tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as we may never meet again.
– FumbleFingers
Dec 23 '17 at 16:48
I don't think the parallel quite holds. If this be the last song, then he cannot sing again. If I emigrate, it is not the case that we cannot meet again - only that we might not. 'Might not' could mean 'quite likely will not' : but if this be the last song, he very definitely will not. If 'might not' has a permissive sense and indicates 'will not be allowed to', it is again inappropriate since, as the context implies, he will be dead and beyond permission or prohibition.
– Geoffrey Thomas
Dec 23 '17 at 18:58
Yes: there's a tautology of the should-be-avoided subset.
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:06
@FF No: the parallel is with 'If you're definitely emigrating by trans-Atlantic liner tomorrow then let's go out for a drink tonight, as you may not be in this country the day after that.'
– Edwin Ashworth
Dec 23 '17 at 23:08
I think you're right that "may not sing another" is an understatement. But I'm not surprised; looking for logical consistency in poetry is often futile.
– Andreas Blass
Dec 24 '17 at 2:14