Is it appropriate to request that the department hire a female faculty member?












20















Our department is currently hiring a new faculty member. At the moment, the faculty gender ratio in our department is very skewed, even for our field. I believe that this has a negative impact on the department environment.



There is general consensus among the grad students on which candidate we support. This candidate is highly qualified in terms of their research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into STEM. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.



We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.



EDIT: Thank you for all of the answers, it certainly gives us a lot to think about. I would like to follow up on a couple things.




  • When I say something like "we think the department should hire a woman", I don't strictly mean that the next faculty should be a woman regardless of any other factors. Rather, I mean that the department should hire someone who will be able to relate to the issues women face in academia and STEM, and help champion female students in our department. The average woman will be in a better place to do this than the average man, so perhaps I should have been a bit more precise about what I meant in the original post.

  • While "diversity programs" designed to get underrepresented minorities into stem are discriminatory in the strictest sense of the word, they are in place to address systemic injustices which have existed for a very long time. The hypothetical examples of discriminating against men and women don't account for the fact that many gender/race imbalances in academia exist because of previous institutional discrimination.










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  • 7





    could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?

    – aaaaaa
    yesterday






  • 1





    Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.

    – Wrzlprmft
    20 hours ago








  • 1





    You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.

    – jpmc26
    12 hours ago











  • +1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.

    – Keith
    51 mins ago
















20















Our department is currently hiring a new faculty member. At the moment, the faculty gender ratio in our department is very skewed, even for our field. I believe that this has a negative impact on the department environment.



There is general consensus among the grad students on which candidate we support. This candidate is highly qualified in terms of their research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into STEM. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.



We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.



EDIT: Thank you for all of the answers, it certainly gives us a lot to think about. I would like to follow up on a couple things.




  • When I say something like "we think the department should hire a woman", I don't strictly mean that the next faculty should be a woman regardless of any other factors. Rather, I mean that the department should hire someone who will be able to relate to the issues women face in academia and STEM, and help champion female students in our department. The average woman will be in a better place to do this than the average man, so perhaps I should have been a bit more precise about what I meant in the original post.

  • While "diversity programs" designed to get underrepresented minorities into stem are discriminatory in the strictest sense of the word, they are in place to address systemic injustices which have existed for a very long time. The hypothetical examples of discriminating against men and women don't account for the fact that many gender/race imbalances in academia exist because of previous institutional discrimination.










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  • 7





    could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?

    – aaaaaa
    yesterday






  • 1





    Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.

    – Wrzlprmft
    20 hours ago








  • 1





    You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.

    – jpmc26
    12 hours ago











  • +1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.

    – Keith
    51 mins ago














20












20








20


3






Our department is currently hiring a new faculty member. At the moment, the faculty gender ratio in our department is very skewed, even for our field. I believe that this has a negative impact on the department environment.



There is general consensus among the grad students on which candidate we support. This candidate is highly qualified in terms of their research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into STEM. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.



We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.



EDIT: Thank you for all of the answers, it certainly gives us a lot to think about. I would like to follow up on a couple things.




  • When I say something like "we think the department should hire a woman", I don't strictly mean that the next faculty should be a woman regardless of any other factors. Rather, I mean that the department should hire someone who will be able to relate to the issues women face in academia and STEM, and help champion female students in our department. The average woman will be in a better place to do this than the average man, so perhaps I should have been a bit more precise about what I meant in the original post.

  • While "diversity programs" designed to get underrepresented minorities into stem are discriminatory in the strictest sense of the word, they are in place to address systemic injustices which have existed for a very long time. The hypothetical examples of discriminating against men and women don't account for the fact that many gender/race imbalances in academia exist because of previous institutional discrimination.










share|improve this question









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Our department is currently hiring a new faculty member. At the moment, the faculty gender ratio in our department is very skewed, even for our field. I believe that this has a negative impact on the department environment.



There is general consensus among the grad students on which candidate we support. This candidate is highly qualified in terms of their research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into STEM. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.



We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.



EDIT: Thank you for all of the answers, it certainly gives us a lot to think about. I would like to follow up on a couple things.




  • When I say something like "we think the department should hire a woman", I don't strictly mean that the next faculty should be a woman regardless of any other factors. Rather, I mean that the department should hire someone who will be able to relate to the issues women face in academia and STEM, and help champion female students in our department. The average woman will be in a better place to do this than the average man, so perhaps I should have been a bit more precise about what I meant in the original post.

  • While "diversity programs" designed to get underrepresented minorities into stem are discriminatory in the strictest sense of the word, they are in place to address systemic injustices which have existed for a very long time. The hypothetical examples of discriminating against men and women don't account for the fact that many gender/race imbalances in academia exist because of previous institutional discrimination.







ethics job-search gender






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  • 7





    could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?

    – aaaaaa
    yesterday






  • 1





    Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.

    – Wrzlprmft
    20 hours ago








  • 1





    You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.

    – jpmc26
    12 hours ago











  • +1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.

    – Keith
    51 mins ago














  • 7





    could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?

    – aaaaaa
    yesterday






  • 1





    Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.

    – Wrzlprmft
    20 hours ago








  • 1





    You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.

    – jpmc26
    12 hours ago











  • +1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.

    – Keith
    51 mins ago








7




7





could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?

– aaaaaa
yesterday





could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?

– aaaaaa
yesterday




1




1





Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.

– Wrzlprmft
20 hours ago







Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.

– Wrzlprmft
20 hours ago






1




1





You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.

– jpmc26
12 hours ago





You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.

– jpmc26
12 hours ago













+1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.

– Keith
51 mins ago





+1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.

– Keith
51 mins ago










8 Answers
8






active

oldest

votes


















66















the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.




This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.




The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.




These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.




We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.




Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.



I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.



Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.






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  • 37





    The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.

    – Elizabeth Henning
    yesterday






  • 11





    @ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?

    – Run like hell
    yesterday






  • 26





    -1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.

    – Kimball
    yesterday








  • 17





    Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...

    – paul garrett
    yesterday






  • 10





    @paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.

    – Run like hell
    20 hours ago



















38














If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.



So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.






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  • 11





    I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???

    – paul garrett
    yesterday






  • 7





    @paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).

    – Tobias Kildetoft
    19 hours ago






  • 2





    @paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".

    – Thomas
    19 hours ago








  • 1





    There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.

    – Debora Weber-Wulff
    16 hours ago






  • 6





    The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.

    – B. Goddard
    6 hours ago



















32














(The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)



I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.



Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.



I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.






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  • 3





    I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.

    – Ben Crowell
    11 hours ago











  • @BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.

    – Dan Romik
    6 hours ago











  • Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.

    – anonymous
    2 hours ago



















16














It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).



If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.






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  • 14





    +1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.

    – Buffy
    yesterday






  • 4





    The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.

    – Ben Crowell
    11 hours ago



















6














You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).



You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say




you should hire more women




what they mean (IMHO) is




check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases




For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)



And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"






share|improve this answer

































    6














    There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.




    We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



    My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




    I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:




    1. It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).

    2. The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.

    3. If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.

    4. Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)


    If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.



    If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.






    share|improve this answer

































      5















      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
      of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
      to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
      underrepresented minorities.




      Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.




      My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
      additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




      Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.



      What is the difference between the following two statements:




      1. Hire him because we want a man in the position.


      2. Hire her because we want a woman in the position.



      Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.



      Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.






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      • 5





        The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 3





        @paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.

        – James Martin
        10 hours ago



















      0














      I can see this from two perspectives:




      1. The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)


      2. The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.



      (As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)






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      • Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.

        – anonymous
        2 hours ago










      protected by Wrzlprmft 21 hours ago



      Thank you for your interest in this question.
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      8 Answers
      8






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      8 Answers
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      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      66















      the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.




      This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.




      The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.




      These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.




      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.




      Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.



      I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.



      Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 37





        The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.

        – Elizabeth Henning
        yesterday






      • 11





        @ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?

        – Run like hell
        yesterday






      • 26





        -1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.

        – Kimball
        yesterday








      • 17





        Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 10





        @paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.

        – Run like hell
        20 hours ago
















      66















      the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.




      This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.




      The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.




      These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.




      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.




      Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.



      I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.



      Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 37





        The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.

        – Elizabeth Henning
        yesterday






      • 11





        @ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?

        – Run like hell
        yesterday






      • 26





        -1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.

        – Kimball
        yesterday








      • 17





        Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 10





        @paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.

        – Run like hell
        20 hours ago














      66












      66








      66








      the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.




      This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.




      The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.




      These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.




      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.




      Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.



      I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.



      Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.






      share|improve this answer
















      the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.




      This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.




      The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.




      These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.




      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.




      Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.



      I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.



      Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited yesterday

























      answered yesterday









      Run like hellRun like hell

      8011412




      8011412








      • 37





        The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.

        – Elizabeth Henning
        yesterday






      • 11





        @ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?

        – Run like hell
        yesterday






      • 26





        -1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.

        – Kimball
        yesterday








      • 17





        Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 10





        @paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.

        – Run like hell
        20 hours ago














      • 37





        The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.

        – Elizabeth Henning
        yesterday






      • 11





        @ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?

        – Run like hell
        yesterday






      • 26





        -1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.

        – Kimball
        yesterday








      • 17





        Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 10





        @paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.

        – Run like hell
        20 hours ago








      37




      37





      The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.

      – Elizabeth Henning
      yesterday





      The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.

      – Elizabeth Henning
      yesterday




      11




      11





      @ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?

      – Run like hell
      yesterday





      @ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?

      – Run like hell
      yesterday




      26




      26





      -1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.

      – Kimball
      yesterday







      -1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.

      – Kimball
      yesterday






      17




      17





      Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...

      – paul garrett
      yesterday





      Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...

      – paul garrett
      yesterday




      10




      10





      @paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.

      – Run like hell
      20 hours ago





      @paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.

      – Run like hell
      20 hours ago











      38














      If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.



      So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 11





        I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 7





        @paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).

        – Tobias Kildetoft
        19 hours ago






      • 2





        @paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".

        – Thomas
        19 hours ago








      • 1





        There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.

        – Debora Weber-Wulff
        16 hours ago






      • 6





        The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.

        – B. Goddard
        6 hours ago
















      38














      If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.



      So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 11





        I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 7





        @paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).

        – Tobias Kildetoft
        19 hours ago






      • 2





        @paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".

        – Thomas
        19 hours ago








      • 1





        There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.

        – Debora Weber-Wulff
        16 hours ago






      • 6





        The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.

        – B. Goddard
        6 hours ago














      38












      38








      38







      If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.



      So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.






      share|improve this answer















      If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.



      So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 21 hours ago

























      answered yesterday









      ThomasThomas

      12.4k53046




      12.4k53046








      • 11





        I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 7





        @paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).

        – Tobias Kildetoft
        19 hours ago






      • 2





        @paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".

        – Thomas
        19 hours ago








      • 1





        There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.

        – Debora Weber-Wulff
        16 hours ago






      • 6





        The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.

        – B. Goddard
        6 hours ago














      • 11





        I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???

        – paul garrett
        yesterday






      • 7





        @paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).

        – Tobias Kildetoft
        19 hours ago






      • 2





        @paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".

        – Thomas
        19 hours ago








      • 1





        There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.

        – Debora Weber-Wulff
        16 hours ago






      • 6





        The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.

        – B. Goddard
        6 hours ago








      11




      11





      I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???

      – paul garrett
      yesterday





      I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???

      – paul garrett
      yesterday




      7




      7





      @paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).

      – Tobias Kildetoft
      19 hours ago





      @paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).

      – Tobias Kildetoft
      19 hours ago




      2




      2





      @paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".

      – Thomas
      19 hours ago







      @paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".

      – Thomas
      19 hours ago






      1




      1





      There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.

      – Debora Weber-Wulff
      16 hours ago





      There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.

      – Debora Weber-Wulff
      16 hours ago




      6




      6





      The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.

      – B. Goddard
      6 hours ago





      The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.

      – B. Goddard
      6 hours ago











      32














      (The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)



      I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.



      Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.



      I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 3





        I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.

        – Ben Crowell
        11 hours ago











      • @BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.

        – Dan Romik
        6 hours ago











      • Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.

        – anonymous
        2 hours ago
















      32














      (The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)



      I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.



      Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.



      I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.






      share|improve this answer





















      • 3





        I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.

        – Ben Crowell
        11 hours ago











      • @BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.

        – Dan Romik
        6 hours ago











      • Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.

        – anonymous
        2 hours ago














      32












      32








      32







      (The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)



      I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.



      Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.



      I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.






      share|improve this answer















      (The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)



      I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.



      Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.



      I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 6 hours ago

























      answered yesterday









      Dan RomikDan Romik

      85.4k21184283




      85.4k21184283








      • 3





        I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.

        – Ben Crowell
        11 hours ago











      • @BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.

        – Dan Romik
        6 hours ago











      • Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.

        – anonymous
        2 hours ago














      • 3





        I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.

        – Ben Crowell
        11 hours ago











      • @BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.

        – Dan Romik
        6 hours ago











      • Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.

        – anonymous
        2 hours ago








      3




      3





      I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.

      – Ben Crowell
      11 hours ago





      I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.

      – Ben Crowell
      11 hours ago













      @BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.

      – Dan Romik
      6 hours ago





      @BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.

      – Dan Romik
      6 hours ago













      Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.

      – anonymous
      2 hours ago





      Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.

      – anonymous
      2 hours ago











      16














      It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).



      If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 14





        +1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.

        – Buffy
        yesterday






      • 4





        The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.

        – Ben Crowell
        11 hours ago
















      16














      It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).



      If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 14





        +1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.

        – Buffy
        yesterday






      • 4





        The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.

        – Ben Crowell
        11 hours ago














      16












      16








      16







      It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).



      If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.






      share|improve this answer













      It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).



      If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered yesterday









      aeismailaeismail

      160k31374699




      160k31374699








      • 14





        +1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.

        – Buffy
        yesterday






      • 4





        The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.

        – Ben Crowell
        11 hours ago














      • 14





        +1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.

        – Buffy
        yesterday






      • 4





        The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.

        – Ben Crowell
        11 hours ago








      14




      14





      +1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.

      – Buffy
      yesterday





      +1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.

      – Buffy
      yesterday




      4




      4





      The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.

      – Ben Crowell
      11 hours ago





      The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.

      – Ben Crowell
      11 hours ago











      6














      You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).



      You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say




      you should hire more women




      what they mean (IMHO) is




      check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases




      For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)



      And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"






      share|improve this answer






























        6














        You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).



        You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say




        you should hire more women




        what they mean (IMHO) is




        check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases




        For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)



        And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"






        share|improve this answer




























          6












          6








          6







          You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).



          You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say




          you should hire more women




          what they mean (IMHO) is




          check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases




          For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)



          And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"






          share|improve this answer















          You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).



          You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say




          you should hire more women




          what they mean (IMHO) is




          check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases




          For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)



          And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited yesterday

























          answered yesterday









          aaaaaaaaaaaa

          1,000513




          1,000513























              6














              There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.




              We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



              My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




              I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:




              1. It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).

              2. The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.

              3. If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.

              4. Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)


              If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.



              If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.






              share|improve this answer






























                6














                There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.




                We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



                My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




                I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:




                1. It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).

                2. The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.

                3. If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.

                4. Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)


                If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.



                If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.






                share|improve this answer




























                  6












                  6








                  6







                  There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.




                  We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



                  My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




                  I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:




                  1. It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).

                  2. The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.

                  3. If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.

                  4. Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)


                  If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.



                  If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.






                  share|improve this answer















                  There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.




                  We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.



                  My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




                  I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:




                  1. It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).

                  2. The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.

                  3. If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.

                  4. Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)


                  If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.



                  If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 18 hours ago

























                  answered 19 hours ago









                  mg4wmg4w

                  639310




                  639310























                      5















                      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
                      of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
                      to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
                      underrepresented minorities.




                      Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.




                      My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
                      additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




                      Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.



                      What is the difference between the following two statements:




                      1. Hire him because we want a man in the position.


                      2. Hire her because we want a woman in the position.



                      Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.



                      Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.






                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      James Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.
















                      • 5





                        The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...

                        – paul garrett
                        yesterday






                      • 3





                        @paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.

                        – James Martin
                        10 hours ago
















                      5















                      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
                      of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
                      to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
                      underrepresented minorities.




                      Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.




                      My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
                      additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




                      Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.



                      What is the difference between the following two statements:




                      1. Hire him because we want a man in the position.


                      2. Hire her because we want a woman in the position.



                      Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.



                      Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.






                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      James Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.
















                      • 5





                        The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...

                        – paul garrett
                        yesterday






                      • 3





                        @paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.

                        – James Martin
                        10 hours ago














                      5












                      5








                      5








                      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
                      of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
                      to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
                      underrepresented minorities.




                      Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.




                      My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
                      additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




                      Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.



                      What is the difference between the following two statements:




                      1. Hire him because we want a man in the position.


                      2. Hire her because we want a woman in the position.



                      Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.



                      Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.






                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      James Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.











                      We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
                      of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
                      to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
                      underrepresented minorities.




                      Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.




                      My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
                      additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.




                      Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.



                      What is the difference between the following two statements:




                      1. Hire him because we want a man in the position.


                      2. Hire her because we want a woman in the position.



                      Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.



                      Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.







                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      James Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited yesterday









                      V2Blast

                      16218




                      16218






                      New contributor




                      James Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      answered yesterday









                      James MartinJames Martin

                      1673




                      1673




                      New contributor




                      James Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.





                      New contributor





                      James Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.






                      James Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.








                      • 5





                        The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...

                        – paul garrett
                        yesterday






                      • 3





                        @paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.

                        – James Martin
                        10 hours ago














                      • 5





                        The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...

                        – paul garrett
                        yesterday






                      • 3





                        @paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.

                        – James Martin
                        10 hours ago








                      5




                      5





                      The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...

                      – paul garrett
                      yesterday





                      The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...

                      – paul garrett
                      yesterday




                      3




                      3





                      @paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.

                      – James Martin
                      10 hours ago





                      @paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.

                      – James Martin
                      10 hours ago











                      0














                      I can see this from two perspectives:




                      1. The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)


                      2. The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.



                      (As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)






                      share|improve this answer










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                      • Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.

                        – anonymous
                        2 hours ago
















                      0














                      I can see this from two perspectives:




                      1. The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)


                      2. The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.



                      (As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)






                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      blahblah is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                      • Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.

                        – anonymous
                        2 hours ago














                      0












                      0








                      0







                      I can see this from two perspectives:




                      1. The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)


                      2. The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.



                      (As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)






                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      blahblah is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.










                      I can see this from two perspectives:




                      1. The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)


                      2. The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.



                      (As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)







                      share|improve this answer










                      New contributor




                      blahblah is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                      Check out our Code of Conduct.









                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited 20 hours ago









                      Wrzlprmft

                      32.9k9106181




                      32.9k9106181






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                      answered 22 hours ago









                      blahblahblahblah

                      91




                      91




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                      New contributor





                      blahblah is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                      • Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.

                        – anonymous
                        2 hours ago



















                      • Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.

                        – anonymous
                        2 hours ago

















                      Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.

                      – anonymous
                      2 hours ago





                      Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.

                      – anonymous
                      2 hours ago





                      protected by Wrzlprmft 21 hours ago



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