Largest alkane having a given alkane as its base name












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What is the largest (most carbon atoms) alkane having heptane as its base name?

For example, 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane is the largest (most carbon atoms) alkane retaining butane as its base name.










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  • 4




    $begingroup$
    You put as many side chains on it as possible without creating a new longest chain. Then you do the same with each of the side chains, and then you hope that the final molecule's center hasn't become so dense that it snaps in two.
    $endgroup$
    – Karl
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This is a subset of a very interesting theoretical question about how many isomers are possible for simple hydrocarbons discussed in this question: chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/16135/81 . Answers there also address questions about whether potential molecules are physically possible.
    $endgroup$
    – matt_black
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the upvotes to my initial (stupid :-) ) comment: The surface of the molecule is densely packed, and the bonds in the center are stretched to the point where they rip.
    $endgroup$
    – Karl
    8 hours ago


















9












$begingroup$


What is the largest (most carbon atoms) alkane having heptane as its base name?

For example, 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane is the largest (most carbon atoms) alkane retaining butane as its base name.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    You put as many side chains on it as possible without creating a new longest chain. Then you do the same with each of the side chains, and then you hope that the final molecule's center hasn't become so dense that it snaps in two.
    $endgroup$
    – Karl
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This is a subset of a very interesting theoretical question about how many isomers are possible for simple hydrocarbons discussed in this question: chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/16135/81 . Answers there also address questions about whether potential molecules are physically possible.
    $endgroup$
    – matt_black
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the upvotes to my initial (stupid :-) ) comment: The surface of the molecule is densely packed, and the bonds in the center are stretched to the point where they rip.
    $endgroup$
    – Karl
    8 hours ago
















9












9








9


2



$begingroup$


What is the largest (most carbon atoms) alkane having heptane as its base name?

For example, 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane is the largest (most carbon atoms) alkane retaining butane as its base name.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




What is the largest (most carbon atoms) alkane having heptane as its base name?

For example, 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane is the largest (most carbon atoms) alkane retaining butane as its base name.







organic-chemistry nomenclature






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













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share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









Karl

5,6401329




5,6401329










asked 2 days ago









Nandakumar U KNandakumar U K

527




527








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    You put as many side chains on it as possible without creating a new longest chain. Then you do the same with each of the side chains, and then you hope that the final molecule's center hasn't become so dense that it snaps in two.
    $endgroup$
    – Karl
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This is a subset of a very interesting theoretical question about how many isomers are possible for simple hydrocarbons discussed in this question: chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/16135/81 . Answers there also address questions about whether potential molecules are physically possible.
    $endgroup$
    – matt_black
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the upvotes to my initial (stupid :-) ) comment: The surface of the molecule is densely packed, and the bonds in the center are stretched to the point where they rip.
    $endgroup$
    – Karl
    8 hours ago
















  • 4




    $begingroup$
    You put as many side chains on it as possible without creating a new longest chain. Then you do the same with each of the side chains, and then you hope that the final molecule's center hasn't become so dense that it snaps in two.
    $endgroup$
    – Karl
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This is a subset of a very interesting theoretical question about how many isomers are possible for simple hydrocarbons discussed in this question: chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/16135/81 . Answers there also address questions about whether potential molecules are physically possible.
    $endgroup$
    – matt_black
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    Thanks for the upvotes to my initial (stupid :-) ) comment: The surface of the molecule is densely packed, and the bonds in the center are stretched to the point where they rip.
    $endgroup$
    – Karl
    8 hours ago










4




4




$begingroup$
You put as many side chains on it as possible without creating a new longest chain. Then you do the same with each of the side chains, and then you hope that the final molecule's center hasn't become so dense that it snaps in two.
$endgroup$
– Karl
2 days ago




$begingroup$
You put as many side chains on it as possible without creating a new longest chain. Then you do the same with each of the side chains, and then you hope that the final molecule's center hasn't become so dense that it snaps in two.
$endgroup$
– Karl
2 days ago




1




1




$begingroup$
This is a subset of a very interesting theoretical question about how many isomers are possible for simple hydrocarbons discussed in this question: chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/16135/81 . Answers there also address questions about whether potential molecules are physically possible.
$endgroup$
– matt_black
2 days ago




$begingroup$
This is a subset of a very interesting theoretical question about how many isomers are possible for simple hydrocarbons discussed in this question: chemistry.stackexchange.com/q/16135/81 . Answers there also address questions about whether potential molecules are physically possible.
$endgroup$
– matt_black
2 days ago












$begingroup$
Thanks for the upvotes to my initial (stupid :-) ) comment: The surface of the molecule is densely packed, and the bonds in the center are stretched to the point where they rip.
$endgroup$
– Karl
8 hours ago






$begingroup$
Thanks for the upvotes to my initial (stupid :-) ) comment: The surface of the molecule is densely packed, and the bonds in the center are stretched to the point where they rip.
$endgroup$
– Karl
8 hours ago












4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















17












$begingroup$

Any alkyl substituent of butane in position 2 or 3 cannot be longer than $ce{CH3}$ since that would lead to a longer parent chain. And obviously, there cannot be any alkyl substituent at all in the first or the last position of the butane chain. Therefore, the largest structure based on a butane parent chain is 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane.



This principle can be expanded to a heptane parent chain. The maximum length for alkyl substituent chains are 0 for position 1 and 7, 1 for position 2 and 6, 2 for position 3 and 5, and 3 for position 4. Therefore, the largest theoretical structure based on a heptane parent chain is 3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane ($ce{C53H108}$).



3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I believe this thing is much too crowded to survive, but then again, that's not what the question was about. Other than that, you are right.
    $endgroup$
    – Ivan Neretin
    2 days ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    @IvanNeretin Agreed, the inner C–C bonds would probably be stretched to more than 2 Å. That’s why I wrote “largest theoretical structure”.
    $endgroup$
    – Loong
    2 days ago








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Preferred IUPAC names is a good concept, but “tetrakis(tri-tert-butylmethyl)methane” is somewhat shorter and clearer ;)
    $endgroup$
    – mykhal
    2 days ago








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    It would seem I have found the structure for the maximal pentadecane in a completely different setting. I wonder if there's anything interesting that pops up from that unusual connection... Actually, it seems that if you take the infinite fractal and assign a single carbon atom to be a particular region size, then circle all regions of that size, you can recover the whole infinite family of maximal alkanes!
    $endgroup$
    – Nicolau Saker Neto
    2 days ago








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @NicolauSakerNeto I also found big resemblance in the Cayley graph of the free group with 2 generators. As a non-chemist, but someone with interest in maths, I wonder whether there is any deeper connection between algebra and chemistry. If someone has any pointers for me, I am happy to take them.
    $endgroup$
    – ComFreek
    yesterday





















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$begingroup$

That's hard to tell, because already the next one after tetramethylbutane, tetra-tert-butylmethane (3,3-di-tert-butyl-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentane) is so unstable it cannot exist. You want a parent chain that is even two atoms longer.



Actually it seems also removing one methyl group from $ce{tBu_4}$methane doesn't make it sufficiently stable, so one has to be a bit more generous in weeding out branches for larger hyperbranched alkanes.



I believe that any permethylated (or per-n-alkylated) linear chain is principally possible, but adding more side-side chains to adjacent side chains will make the molecule snap in two.



So the biggest possible sum formula would be something based on



3,5-di-tert-butyl-2,2,3,4,4,5,6,6-octaamethylheptane = $ce{C23H48}$



. You can surely make the inner methyl substituents longer,



3,5-di-tert-butyl-3,5-diethyl-4,4-di-n-propyl-2,2,6,6-tetraamethylheptane = $ce{C29H60}$



, and then you can probably add 4 methyl to the nPr and Et to give iBu and i-Pr that's $ce{C33H68}$. Any more and I'll bet it breaks, quite a way from the theoretical $ce{C53H108}$.






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    6












    $begingroup$

    Speaking of hypothetical structures, you can get, with little cheating, infinitely large “alkane” like poly(heptane-1,1-diyl)[1]



    Fig.1 - structure formula     
    Fig.2 - structure formula 2



    where $n=infty$, i.e. with infinite degree of polymerization (or substituted branched ones like those in other, correct, answers, with even bigger infinity sizes).





    Notes:




    1. Alternative structure-based polymer name based on older organic chemistry nomenclature would be poly(1-heptylidene)






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      But in that case won't the parent be 1-chloro-4-(3-chloropropyl)infinitane? rather than dichlorosubstituted heptane?
      $endgroup$
      – Nandakumar U K
      2 days ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @NandakumarUK I don't know if you are serious and where did you get chlorine. My name uses polymer nomenclature (see e.g. here), and it's a more systematic structure-based name, like poly(methylene) for more known “polyethylene” (source-based name).
      $endgroup$
      – mykhal
      yesterday












    • $begingroup$
      @NandakumarUK .. but if you want to have fun non-polymer name, I'd name it rather like −∞,−∞+1,−∞+2,…,∞−2,∞−1,∞-infinitaheptylinfinitane.
      $endgroup$
      – mykhal
      yesterday












    • $begingroup$
      Sir, i was referring to a choosable monomer before getting polymerized.; that is why i mentioned a chloro compound. If you consider the compound to be a polymer, there must be a monomer for sure; i wounder, which is that?
      $endgroup$
      – Nandakumar U K
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      Again poly methylene can have odd or even number of carbon atoms in the chain, but poly ethylene can have only even number of carbon atoms in the chain; so could we consider them to be the same always?
      $endgroup$
      – Nandakumar U K
      yesterday



















    3












    $begingroup$

    The general answer is easy. First we compute the maximum number of carbon atoms $a_n$ in a side chain of length $n$ from bond to end. Its difference equation is
    $$a_{n+1}=3a_n+1$$
    The $1$ is there to count the carbon that has the bond and the $3a_n$ counts the $3$ maximal side chains radiating from it. The homogeneous equation is
    $$a_{n+1,h}=3a_{n,h}$$
    With general solution
    $$a_{n,h}=Ccdot3^n$$
    And if we seek a particular solution of the form
    $$a_{n,p}=K=text{constant}$$
    We get the solution
    $$a_{n,p}=-frac12$$
    Since the above is a linear difference equation, the general solution is
    $$a_n=a_{n,p}+a_{n,h}=-frac12+Ccdot3^n$$
    We know that the solution for $n=1$ is a methyl group, so
    $$a_1=1=-frac12+3C$$
    So $C=1/2$ and
    $$a_n=frac12left(3^n-1right)$$
    Now consider $b_{2N+1}$, the maximum number of carbons in a molecule with maximum length $2N+1$ carbon chain. To make this we just substitute $4$ maximal side chains of length $N$ to a methane molecule to get
    $$b_{2N+1}=1+4a_N=2cdot3^N-1$$
    And to get $b_{2N}$ we substitute $6$ maximal sides chains of length $N-1$ to an ethane molecule to get
    $$b_{2N}=2+6a_{N-1}=3^N-1$$
    Hmmm... I guess we could have arrived at the same result by just joining $2$ maximal side chains of length $N$ together :)






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      So for heptane as the longest chain N=3 (2N+1 carbon atoms), that gives 53, correct. Pentane 17, correct. Hexane 26, also right. Nice math!
      $endgroup$
      – Karl
      18 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      This equation was the one i always dreamt, attempted and miserably failed every time ;)...Kudos!!!
      $endgroup$
      – Nandakumar U K
      17 hours ago











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    4 Answers
    4






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    4 Answers
    4






    active

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    active

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    active

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    17












    $begingroup$

    Any alkyl substituent of butane in position 2 or 3 cannot be longer than $ce{CH3}$ since that would lead to a longer parent chain. And obviously, there cannot be any alkyl substituent at all in the first or the last position of the butane chain. Therefore, the largest structure based on a butane parent chain is 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane.



    This principle can be expanded to a heptane parent chain. The maximum length for alkyl substituent chains are 0 for position 1 and 7, 1 for position 2 and 6, 2 for position 3 and 5, and 3 for position 4. Therefore, the largest theoretical structure based on a heptane parent chain is 3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane ($ce{C53H108}$).



    3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I believe this thing is much too crowded to survive, but then again, that's not what the question was about. Other than that, you are right.
      $endgroup$
      – Ivan Neretin
      2 days ago






    • 5




      $begingroup$
      @IvanNeretin Agreed, the inner C–C bonds would probably be stretched to more than 2 Å. That’s why I wrote “largest theoretical structure”.
      $endgroup$
      – Loong
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      Preferred IUPAC names is a good concept, but “tetrakis(tri-tert-butylmethyl)methane” is somewhat shorter and clearer ;)
      $endgroup$
      – mykhal
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      It would seem I have found the structure for the maximal pentadecane in a completely different setting. I wonder if there's anything interesting that pops up from that unusual connection... Actually, it seems that if you take the infinite fractal and assign a single carbon atom to be a particular region size, then circle all regions of that size, you can recover the whole infinite family of maximal alkanes!
      $endgroup$
      – Nicolau Saker Neto
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      @NicolauSakerNeto I also found big resemblance in the Cayley graph of the free group with 2 generators. As a non-chemist, but someone with interest in maths, I wonder whether there is any deeper connection between algebra and chemistry. If someone has any pointers for me, I am happy to take them.
      $endgroup$
      – ComFreek
      yesterday


















    17












    $begingroup$

    Any alkyl substituent of butane in position 2 or 3 cannot be longer than $ce{CH3}$ since that would lead to a longer parent chain. And obviously, there cannot be any alkyl substituent at all in the first or the last position of the butane chain. Therefore, the largest structure based on a butane parent chain is 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane.



    This principle can be expanded to a heptane parent chain. The maximum length for alkyl substituent chains are 0 for position 1 and 7, 1 for position 2 and 6, 2 for position 3 and 5, and 3 for position 4. Therefore, the largest theoretical structure based on a heptane parent chain is 3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane ($ce{C53H108}$).



    3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$









    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I believe this thing is much too crowded to survive, but then again, that's not what the question was about. Other than that, you are right.
      $endgroup$
      – Ivan Neretin
      2 days ago






    • 5




      $begingroup$
      @IvanNeretin Agreed, the inner C–C bonds would probably be stretched to more than 2 Å. That’s why I wrote “largest theoretical structure”.
      $endgroup$
      – Loong
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      Preferred IUPAC names is a good concept, but “tetrakis(tri-tert-butylmethyl)methane” is somewhat shorter and clearer ;)
      $endgroup$
      – mykhal
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      It would seem I have found the structure for the maximal pentadecane in a completely different setting. I wonder if there's anything interesting that pops up from that unusual connection... Actually, it seems that if you take the infinite fractal and assign a single carbon atom to be a particular region size, then circle all regions of that size, you can recover the whole infinite family of maximal alkanes!
      $endgroup$
      – Nicolau Saker Neto
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      @NicolauSakerNeto I also found big resemblance in the Cayley graph of the free group with 2 generators. As a non-chemist, but someone with interest in maths, I wonder whether there is any deeper connection between algebra and chemistry. If someone has any pointers for me, I am happy to take them.
      $endgroup$
      – ComFreek
      yesterday
















    17












    17








    17





    $begingroup$

    Any alkyl substituent of butane in position 2 or 3 cannot be longer than $ce{CH3}$ since that would lead to a longer parent chain. And obviously, there cannot be any alkyl substituent at all in the first or the last position of the butane chain. Therefore, the largest structure based on a butane parent chain is 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane.



    This principle can be expanded to a heptane parent chain. The maximum length for alkyl substituent chains are 0 for position 1 and 7, 1 for position 2 and 6, 2 for position 3 and 5, and 3 for position 4. Therefore, the largest theoretical structure based on a heptane parent chain is 3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane ($ce{C53H108}$).



    3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Any alkyl substituent of butane in position 2 or 3 cannot be longer than $ce{CH3}$ since that would lead to a longer parent chain. And obviously, there cannot be any alkyl substituent at all in the first or the last position of the butane chain. Therefore, the largest structure based on a butane parent chain is 2,2,3,3-tetramethylbutane.



    This principle can be expanded to a heptane parent chain. The maximum length for alkyl substituent chains are 0 for position 1 and 7, 1 for position 2 and 6, 2 for position 3 and 5, and 3 for position 4. Therefore, the largest theoretical structure based on a heptane parent chain is 3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane ($ce{C53H108}$).



    3,3,5,5-tetra-tert-butyl-4,4-bis[3-(tert-butyl)-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentan-3-yl]-2,2,6,6-tetramethylheptane







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 2 days ago

























    answered 2 days ago









    LoongLoong

    33.1k882170




    33.1k882170








    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I believe this thing is much too crowded to survive, but then again, that's not what the question was about. Other than that, you are right.
      $endgroup$
      – Ivan Neretin
      2 days ago






    • 5




      $begingroup$
      @IvanNeretin Agreed, the inner C–C bonds would probably be stretched to more than 2 Å. That’s why I wrote “largest theoretical structure”.
      $endgroup$
      – Loong
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      Preferred IUPAC names is a good concept, but “tetrakis(tri-tert-butylmethyl)methane” is somewhat shorter and clearer ;)
      $endgroup$
      – mykhal
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      It would seem I have found the structure for the maximal pentadecane in a completely different setting. I wonder if there's anything interesting that pops up from that unusual connection... Actually, it seems that if you take the infinite fractal and assign a single carbon atom to be a particular region size, then circle all regions of that size, you can recover the whole infinite family of maximal alkanes!
      $endgroup$
      – Nicolau Saker Neto
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      @NicolauSakerNeto I also found big resemblance in the Cayley graph of the free group with 2 generators. As a non-chemist, but someone with interest in maths, I wonder whether there is any deeper connection between algebra and chemistry. If someone has any pointers for me, I am happy to take them.
      $endgroup$
      – ComFreek
      yesterday
















    • 2




      $begingroup$
      I believe this thing is much too crowded to survive, but then again, that's not what the question was about. Other than that, you are right.
      $endgroup$
      – Ivan Neretin
      2 days ago






    • 5




      $begingroup$
      @IvanNeretin Agreed, the inner C–C bonds would probably be stretched to more than 2 Å. That’s why I wrote “largest theoretical structure”.
      $endgroup$
      – Loong
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      Preferred IUPAC names is a good concept, but “tetrakis(tri-tert-butylmethyl)methane” is somewhat shorter and clearer ;)
      $endgroup$
      – mykhal
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      It would seem I have found the structure for the maximal pentadecane in a completely different setting. I wonder if there's anything interesting that pops up from that unusual connection... Actually, it seems that if you take the infinite fractal and assign a single carbon atom to be a particular region size, then circle all regions of that size, you can recover the whole infinite family of maximal alkanes!
      $endgroup$
      – Nicolau Saker Neto
      2 days ago








    • 3




      $begingroup$
      @NicolauSakerNeto I also found big resemblance in the Cayley graph of the free group with 2 generators. As a non-chemist, but someone with interest in maths, I wonder whether there is any deeper connection between algebra and chemistry. If someone has any pointers for me, I am happy to take them.
      $endgroup$
      – ComFreek
      yesterday










    2




    2




    $begingroup$
    I believe this thing is much too crowded to survive, but then again, that's not what the question was about. Other than that, you are right.
    $endgroup$
    – Ivan Neretin
    2 days ago




    $begingroup$
    I believe this thing is much too crowded to survive, but then again, that's not what the question was about. Other than that, you are right.
    $endgroup$
    – Ivan Neretin
    2 days ago




    5




    5




    $begingroup$
    @IvanNeretin Agreed, the inner C–C bonds would probably be stretched to more than 2 Å. That’s why I wrote “largest theoretical structure”.
    $endgroup$
    – Loong
    2 days ago






    $begingroup$
    @IvanNeretin Agreed, the inner C–C bonds would probably be stretched to more than 2 Å. That’s why I wrote “largest theoretical structure”.
    $endgroup$
    – Loong
    2 days ago






    3




    3




    $begingroup$
    Preferred IUPAC names is a good concept, but “tetrakis(tri-tert-butylmethyl)methane” is somewhat shorter and clearer ;)
    $endgroup$
    – mykhal
    2 days ago






    $begingroup$
    Preferred IUPAC names is a good concept, but “tetrakis(tri-tert-butylmethyl)methane” is somewhat shorter and clearer ;)
    $endgroup$
    – mykhal
    2 days ago






    3




    3




    $begingroup$
    It would seem I have found the structure for the maximal pentadecane in a completely different setting. I wonder if there's anything interesting that pops up from that unusual connection... Actually, it seems that if you take the infinite fractal and assign a single carbon atom to be a particular region size, then circle all regions of that size, you can recover the whole infinite family of maximal alkanes!
    $endgroup$
    – Nicolau Saker Neto
    2 days ago






    $begingroup$
    It would seem I have found the structure for the maximal pentadecane in a completely different setting. I wonder if there's anything interesting that pops up from that unusual connection... Actually, it seems that if you take the infinite fractal and assign a single carbon atom to be a particular region size, then circle all regions of that size, you can recover the whole infinite family of maximal alkanes!
    $endgroup$
    – Nicolau Saker Neto
    2 days ago






    3




    3




    $begingroup$
    @NicolauSakerNeto I also found big resemblance in the Cayley graph of the free group with 2 generators. As a non-chemist, but someone with interest in maths, I wonder whether there is any deeper connection between algebra and chemistry. If someone has any pointers for me, I am happy to take them.
    $endgroup$
    – ComFreek
    yesterday






    $begingroup$
    @NicolauSakerNeto I also found big resemblance in the Cayley graph of the free group with 2 generators. As a non-chemist, but someone with interest in maths, I wonder whether there is any deeper connection between algebra and chemistry. If someone has any pointers for me, I am happy to take them.
    $endgroup$
    – ComFreek
    yesterday













    9












    $begingroup$

    That's hard to tell, because already the next one after tetramethylbutane, tetra-tert-butylmethane (3,3-di-tert-butyl-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentane) is so unstable it cannot exist. You want a parent chain that is even two atoms longer.



    Actually it seems also removing one methyl group from $ce{tBu_4}$methane doesn't make it sufficiently stable, so one has to be a bit more generous in weeding out branches for larger hyperbranched alkanes.



    I believe that any permethylated (or per-n-alkylated) linear chain is principally possible, but adding more side-side chains to adjacent side chains will make the molecule snap in two.



    So the biggest possible sum formula would be something based on



    3,5-di-tert-butyl-2,2,3,4,4,5,6,6-octaamethylheptane = $ce{C23H48}$



    . You can surely make the inner methyl substituents longer,



    3,5-di-tert-butyl-3,5-diethyl-4,4-di-n-propyl-2,2,6,6-tetraamethylheptane = $ce{C29H60}$



    , and then you can probably add 4 methyl to the nPr and Et to give iBu and i-Pr that's $ce{C33H68}$. Any more and I'll bet it breaks, quite a way from the theoretical $ce{C53H108}$.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$


















      9












      $begingroup$

      That's hard to tell, because already the next one after tetramethylbutane, tetra-tert-butylmethane (3,3-di-tert-butyl-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentane) is so unstable it cannot exist. You want a parent chain that is even two atoms longer.



      Actually it seems also removing one methyl group from $ce{tBu_4}$methane doesn't make it sufficiently stable, so one has to be a bit more generous in weeding out branches for larger hyperbranched alkanes.



      I believe that any permethylated (or per-n-alkylated) linear chain is principally possible, but adding more side-side chains to adjacent side chains will make the molecule snap in two.



      So the biggest possible sum formula would be something based on



      3,5-di-tert-butyl-2,2,3,4,4,5,6,6-octaamethylheptane = $ce{C23H48}$



      . You can surely make the inner methyl substituents longer,



      3,5-di-tert-butyl-3,5-diethyl-4,4-di-n-propyl-2,2,6,6-tetraamethylheptane = $ce{C29H60}$



      , and then you can probably add 4 methyl to the nPr and Et to give iBu and i-Pr that's $ce{C33H68}$. Any more and I'll bet it breaks, quite a way from the theoretical $ce{C53H108}$.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$
















        9












        9








        9





        $begingroup$

        That's hard to tell, because already the next one after tetramethylbutane, tetra-tert-butylmethane (3,3-di-tert-butyl-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentane) is so unstable it cannot exist. You want a parent chain that is even two atoms longer.



        Actually it seems also removing one methyl group from $ce{tBu_4}$methane doesn't make it sufficiently stable, so one has to be a bit more generous in weeding out branches for larger hyperbranched alkanes.



        I believe that any permethylated (or per-n-alkylated) linear chain is principally possible, but adding more side-side chains to adjacent side chains will make the molecule snap in two.



        So the biggest possible sum formula would be something based on



        3,5-di-tert-butyl-2,2,3,4,4,5,6,6-octaamethylheptane = $ce{C23H48}$



        . You can surely make the inner methyl substituents longer,



        3,5-di-tert-butyl-3,5-diethyl-4,4-di-n-propyl-2,2,6,6-tetraamethylheptane = $ce{C29H60}$



        , and then you can probably add 4 methyl to the nPr and Et to give iBu and i-Pr that's $ce{C33H68}$. Any more and I'll bet it breaks, quite a way from the theoretical $ce{C53H108}$.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        That's hard to tell, because already the next one after tetramethylbutane, tetra-tert-butylmethane (3,3-di-tert-butyl-2,2,4,4-tetramethylpentane) is so unstable it cannot exist. You want a parent chain that is even two atoms longer.



        Actually it seems also removing one methyl group from $ce{tBu_4}$methane doesn't make it sufficiently stable, so one has to be a bit more generous in weeding out branches for larger hyperbranched alkanes.



        I believe that any permethylated (or per-n-alkylated) linear chain is principally possible, but adding more side-side chains to adjacent side chains will make the molecule snap in two.



        So the biggest possible sum formula would be something based on



        3,5-di-tert-butyl-2,2,3,4,4,5,6,6-octaamethylheptane = $ce{C23H48}$



        . You can surely make the inner methyl substituents longer,



        3,5-di-tert-butyl-3,5-diethyl-4,4-di-n-propyl-2,2,6,6-tetraamethylheptane = $ce{C29H60}$



        , and then you can probably add 4 methyl to the nPr and Et to give iBu and i-Pr that's $ce{C33H68}$. Any more and I'll bet it breaks, quite a way from the theoretical $ce{C53H108}$.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 2 days ago

























        answered 2 days ago









        KarlKarl

        5,6401329




        5,6401329























            6












            $begingroup$

            Speaking of hypothetical structures, you can get, with little cheating, infinitely large “alkane” like poly(heptane-1,1-diyl)[1]



            Fig.1 - structure formula     
            Fig.2 - structure formula 2



            where $n=infty$, i.e. with infinite degree of polymerization (or substituted branched ones like those in other, correct, answers, with even bigger infinity sizes).





            Notes:




            1. Alternative structure-based polymer name based on older organic chemistry nomenclature would be poly(1-heptylidene)






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              But in that case won't the parent be 1-chloro-4-(3-chloropropyl)infinitane? rather than dichlorosubstituted heptane?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              2 days ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @NandakumarUK I don't know if you are serious and where did you get chlorine. My name uses polymer nomenclature (see e.g. here), and it's a more systematic structure-based name, like poly(methylene) for more known “polyethylene” (source-based name).
              $endgroup$
              – mykhal
              yesterday












            • $begingroup$
              @NandakumarUK .. but if you want to have fun non-polymer name, I'd name it rather like −∞,−∞+1,−∞+2,…,∞−2,∞−1,∞-infinitaheptylinfinitane.
              $endgroup$
              – mykhal
              yesterday












            • $begingroup$
              Sir, i was referring to a choosable monomer before getting polymerized.; that is why i mentioned a chloro compound. If you consider the compound to be a polymer, there must be a monomer for sure; i wounder, which is that?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              yesterday










            • $begingroup$
              Again poly methylene can have odd or even number of carbon atoms in the chain, but poly ethylene can have only even number of carbon atoms in the chain; so could we consider them to be the same always?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              yesterday
















            6












            $begingroup$

            Speaking of hypothetical structures, you can get, with little cheating, infinitely large “alkane” like poly(heptane-1,1-diyl)[1]



            Fig.1 - structure formula     
            Fig.2 - structure formula 2



            where $n=infty$, i.e. with infinite degree of polymerization (or substituted branched ones like those in other, correct, answers, with even bigger infinity sizes).





            Notes:




            1. Alternative structure-based polymer name based on older organic chemistry nomenclature would be poly(1-heptylidene)






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              But in that case won't the parent be 1-chloro-4-(3-chloropropyl)infinitane? rather than dichlorosubstituted heptane?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              2 days ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @NandakumarUK I don't know if you are serious and where did you get chlorine. My name uses polymer nomenclature (see e.g. here), and it's a more systematic structure-based name, like poly(methylene) for more known “polyethylene” (source-based name).
              $endgroup$
              – mykhal
              yesterday












            • $begingroup$
              @NandakumarUK .. but if you want to have fun non-polymer name, I'd name it rather like −∞,−∞+1,−∞+2,…,∞−2,∞−1,∞-infinitaheptylinfinitane.
              $endgroup$
              – mykhal
              yesterday












            • $begingroup$
              Sir, i was referring to a choosable monomer before getting polymerized.; that is why i mentioned a chloro compound. If you consider the compound to be a polymer, there must be a monomer for sure; i wounder, which is that?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              yesterday










            • $begingroup$
              Again poly methylene can have odd or even number of carbon atoms in the chain, but poly ethylene can have only even number of carbon atoms in the chain; so could we consider them to be the same always?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              yesterday














            6












            6








            6





            $begingroup$

            Speaking of hypothetical structures, you can get, with little cheating, infinitely large “alkane” like poly(heptane-1,1-diyl)[1]



            Fig.1 - structure formula     
            Fig.2 - structure formula 2



            where $n=infty$, i.e. with infinite degree of polymerization (or substituted branched ones like those in other, correct, answers, with even bigger infinity sizes).





            Notes:




            1. Alternative structure-based polymer name based on older organic chemistry nomenclature would be poly(1-heptylidene)






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Speaking of hypothetical structures, you can get, with little cheating, infinitely large “alkane” like poly(heptane-1,1-diyl)[1]



            Fig.1 - structure formula     
            Fig.2 - structure formula 2



            where $n=infty$, i.e. with infinite degree of polymerization (or substituted branched ones like those in other, correct, answers, with even bigger infinity sizes).





            Notes:




            1. Alternative structure-based polymer name based on older organic chemistry nomenclature would be poly(1-heptylidene)







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited yesterday

























            answered 2 days ago









            mykhalmykhal

            4,12912160




            4,12912160












            • $begingroup$
              But in that case won't the parent be 1-chloro-4-(3-chloropropyl)infinitane? rather than dichlorosubstituted heptane?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              2 days ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @NandakumarUK I don't know if you are serious and where did you get chlorine. My name uses polymer nomenclature (see e.g. here), and it's a more systematic structure-based name, like poly(methylene) for more known “polyethylene” (source-based name).
              $endgroup$
              – mykhal
              yesterday












            • $begingroup$
              @NandakumarUK .. but if you want to have fun non-polymer name, I'd name it rather like −∞,−∞+1,−∞+2,…,∞−2,∞−1,∞-infinitaheptylinfinitane.
              $endgroup$
              – mykhal
              yesterday












            • $begingroup$
              Sir, i was referring to a choosable monomer before getting polymerized.; that is why i mentioned a chloro compound. If you consider the compound to be a polymer, there must be a monomer for sure; i wounder, which is that?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              yesterday










            • $begingroup$
              Again poly methylene can have odd or even number of carbon atoms in the chain, but poly ethylene can have only even number of carbon atoms in the chain; so could we consider them to be the same always?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              yesterday


















            • $begingroup$
              But in that case won't the parent be 1-chloro-4-(3-chloropropyl)infinitane? rather than dichlorosubstituted heptane?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              2 days ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @NandakumarUK I don't know if you are serious and where did you get chlorine. My name uses polymer nomenclature (see e.g. here), and it's a more systematic structure-based name, like poly(methylene) for more known “polyethylene” (source-based name).
              $endgroup$
              – mykhal
              yesterday












            • $begingroup$
              @NandakumarUK .. but if you want to have fun non-polymer name, I'd name it rather like −∞,−∞+1,−∞+2,…,∞−2,∞−1,∞-infinitaheptylinfinitane.
              $endgroup$
              – mykhal
              yesterday












            • $begingroup$
              Sir, i was referring to a choosable monomer before getting polymerized.; that is why i mentioned a chloro compound. If you consider the compound to be a polymer, there must be a monomer for sure; i wounder, which is that?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              yesterday










            • $begingroup$
              Again poly methylene can have odd or even number of carbon atoms in the chain, but poly ethylene can have only even number of carbon atoms in the chain; so could we consider them to be the same always?
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              yesterday
















            $begingroup$
            But in that case won't the parent be 1-chloro-4-(3-chloropropyl)infinitane? rather than dichlorosubstituted heptane?
            $endgroup$
            – Nandakumar U K
            2 days ago




            $begingroup$
            But in that case won't the parent be 1-chloro-4-(3-chloropropyl)infinitane? rather than dichlorosubstituted heptane?
            $endgroup$
            – Nandakumar U K
            2 days ago




            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            @NandakumarUK I don't know if you are serious and where did you get chlorine. My name uses polymer nomenclature (see e.g. here), and it's a more systematic structure-based name, like poly(methylene) for more known “polyethylene” (source-based name).
            $endgroup$
            – mykhal
            yesterday






            $begingroup$
            @NandakumarUK I don't know if you are serious and where did you get chlorine. My name uses polymer nomenclature (see e.g. here), and it's a more systematic structure-based name, like poly(methylene) for more known “polyethylene” (source-based name).
            $endgroup$
            – mykhal
            yesterday














            $begingroup$
            @NandakumarUK .. but if you want to have fun non-polymer name, I'd name it rather like −∞,−∞+1,−∞+2,…,∞−2,∞−1,∞-infinitaheptylinfinitane.
            $endgroup$
            – mykhal
            yesterday






            $begingroup$
            @NandakumarUK .. but if you want to have fun non-polymer name, I'd name it rather like −∞,−∞+1,−∞+2,…,∞−2,∞−1,∞-infinitaheptylinfinitane.
            $endgroup$
            – mykhal
            yesterday














            $begingroup$
            Sir, i was referring to a choosable monomer before getting polymerized.; that is why i mentioned a chloro compound. If you consider the compound to be a polymer, there must be a monomer for sure; i wounder, which is that?
            $endgroup$
            – Nandakumar U K
            yesterday




            $begingroup$
            Sir, i was referring to a choosable monomer before getting polymerized.; that is why i mentioned a chloro compound. If you consider the compound to be a polymer, there must be a monomer for sure; i wounder, which is that?
            $endgroup$
            – Nandakumar U K
            yesterday












            $begingroup$
            Again poly methylene can have odd or even number of carbon atoms in the chain, but poly ethylene can have only even number of carbon atoms in the chain; so could we consider them to be the same always?
            $endgroup$
            – Nandakumar U K
            yesterday




            $begingroup$
            Again poly methylene can have odd or even number of carbon atoms in the chain, but poly ethylene can have only even number of carbon atoms in the chain; so could we consider them to be the same always?
            $endgroup$
            – Nandakumar U K
            yesterday











            3












            $begingroup$

            The general answer is easy. First we compute the maximum number of carbon atoms $a_n$ in a side chain of length $n$ from bond to end. Its difference equation is
            $$a_{n+1}=3a_n+1$$
            The $1$ is there to count the carbon that has the bond and the $3a_n$ counts the $3$ maximal side chains radiating from it. The homogeneous equation is
            $$a_{n+1,h}=3a_{n,h}$$
            With general solution
            $$a_{n,h}=Ccdot3^n$$
            And if we seek a particular solution of the form
            $$a_{n,p}=K=text{constant}$$
            We get the solution
            $$a_{n,p}=-frac12$$
            Since the above is a linear difference equation, the general solution is
            $$a_n=a_{n,p}+a_{n,h}=-frac12+Ccdot3^n$$
            We know that the solution for $n=1$ is a methyl group, so
            $$a_1=1=-frac12+3C$$
            So $C=1/2$ and
            $$a_n=frac12left(3^n-1right)$$
            Now consider $b_{2N+1}$, the maximum number of carbons in a molecule with maximum length $2N+1$ carbon chain. To make this we just substitute $4$ maximal side chains of length $N$ to a methane molecule to get
            $$b_{2N+1}=1+4a_N=2cdot3^N-1$$
            And to get $b_{2N}$ we substitute $6$ maximal sides chains of length $N-1$ to an ethane molecule to get
            $$b_{2N}=2+6a_{N-1}=3^N-1$$
            Hmmm... I guess we could have arrived at the same result by just joining $2$ maximal side chains of length $N$ together :)






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              So for heptane as the longest chain N=3 (2N+1 carbon atoms), that gives 53, correct. Pentane 17, correct. Hexane 26, also right. Nice math!
              $endgroup$
              – Karl
              18 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              This equation was the one i always dreamt, attempted and miserably failed every time ;)...Kudos!!!
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              17 hours ago
















            3












            $begingroup$

            The general answer is easy. First we compute the maximum number of carbon atoms $a_n$ in a side chain of length $n$ from bond to end. Its difference equation is
            $$a_{n+1}=3a_n+1$$
            The $1$ is there to count the carbon that has the bond and the $3a_n$ counts the $3$ maximal side chains radiating from it. The homogeneous equation is
            $$a_{n+1,h}=3a_{n,h}$$
            With general solution
            $$a_{n,h}=Ccdot3^n$$
            And if we seek a particular solution of the form
            $$a_{n,p}=K=text{constant}$$
            We get the solution
            $$a_{n,p}=-frac12$$
            Since the above is a linear difference equation, the general solution is
            $$a_n=a_{n,p}+a_{n,h}=-frac12+Ccdot3^n$$
            We know that the solution for $n=1$ is a methyl group, so
            $$a_1=1=-frac12+3C$$
            So $C=1/2$ and
            $$a_n=frac12left(3^n-1right)$$
            Now consider $b_{2N+1}$, the maximum number of carbons in a molecule with maximum length $2N+1$ carbon chain. To make this we just substitute $4$ maximal side chains of length $N$ to a methane molecule to get
            $$b_{2N+1}=1+4a_N=2cdot3^N-1$$
            And to get $b_{2N}$ we substitute $6$ maximal sides chains of length $N-1$ to an ethane molecule to get
            $$b_{2N}=2+6a_{N-1}=3^N-1$$
            Hmmm... I guess we could have arrived at the same result by just joining $2$ maximal side chains of length $N$ together :)






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              So for heptane as the longest chain N=3 (2N+1 carbon atoms), that gives 53, correct. Pentane 17, correct. Hexane 26, also right. Nice math!
              $endgroup$
              – Karl
              18 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              This equation was the one i always dreamt, attempted and miserably failed every time ;)...Kudos!!!
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              17 hours ago














            3












            3








            3





            $begingroup$

            The general answer is easy. First we compute the maximum number of carbon atoms $a_n$ in a side chain of length $n$ from bond to end. Its difference equation is
            $$a_{n+1}=3a_n+1$$
            The $1$ is there to count the carbon that has the bond and the $3a_n$ counts the $3$ maximal side chains radiating from it. The homogeneous equation is
            $$a_{n+1,h}=3a_{n,h}$$
            With general solution
            $$a_{n,h}=Ccdot3^n$$
            And if we seek a particular solution of the form
            $$a_{n,p}=K=text{constant}$$
            We get the solution
            $$a_{n,p}=-frac12$$
            Since the above is a linear difference equation, the general solution is
            $$a_n=a_{n,p}+a_{n,h}=-frac12+Ccdot3^n$$
            We know that the solution for $n=1$ is a methyl group, so
            $$a_1=1=-frac12+3C$$
            So $C=1/2$ and
            $$a_n=frac12left(3^n-1right)$$
            Now consider $b_{2N+1}$, the maximum number of carbons in a molecule with maximum length $2N+1$ carbon chain. To make this we just substitute $4$ maximal side chains of length $N$ to a methane molecule to get
            $$b_{2N+1}=1+4a_N=2cdot3^N-1$$
            And to get $b_{2N}$ we substitute $6$ maximal sides chains of length $N-1$ to an ethane molecule to get
            $$b_{2N}=2+6a_{N-1}=3^N-1$$
            Hmmm... I guess we could have arrived at the same result by just joining $2$ maximal side chains of length $N$ together :)






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            The general answer is easy. First we compute the maximum number of carbon atoms $a_n$ in a side chain of length $n$ from bond to end. Its difference equation is
            $$a_{n+1}=3a_n+1$$
            The $1$ is there to count the carbon that has the bond and the $3a_n$ counts the $3$ maximal side chains radiating from it. The homogeneous equation is
            $$a_{n+1,h}=3a_{n,h}$$
            With general solution
            $$a_{n,h}=Ccdot3^n$$
            And if we seek a particular solution of the form
            $$a_{n,p}=K=text{constant}$$
            We get the solution
            $$a_{n,p}=-frac12$$
            Since the above is a linear difference equation, the general solution is
            $$a_n=a_{n,p}+a_{n,h}=-frac12+Ccdot3^n$$
            We know that the solution for $n=1$ is a methyl group, so
            $$a_1=1=-frac12+3C$$
            So $C=1/2$ and
            $$a_n=frac12left(3^n-1right)$$
            Now consider $b_{2N+1}$, the maximum number of carbons in a molecule with maximum length $2N+1$ carbon chain. To make this we just substitute $4$ maximal side chains of length $N$ to a methane molecule to get
            $$b_{2N+1}=1+4a_N=2cdot3^N-1$$
            And to get $b_{2N}$ we substitute $6$ maximal sides chains of length $N-1$ to an ethane molecule to get
            $$b_{2N}=2+6a_{N-1}=3^N-1$$
            Hmmm... I guess we could have arrived at the same result by just joining $2$ maximal side chains of length $N$ together :)







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 22 hours ago









            user5713492user5713492

            46935




            46935












            • $begingroup$
              So for heptane as the longest chain N=3 (2N+1 carbon atoms), that gives 53, correct. Pentane 17, correct. Hexane 26, also right. Nice math!
              $endgroup$
              – Karl
              18 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              This equation was the one i always dreamt, attempted and miserably failed every time ;)...Kudos!!!
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              17 hours ago


















            • $begingroup$
              So for heptane as the longest chain N=3 (2N+1 carbon atoms), that gives 53, correct. Pentane 17, correct. Hexane 26, also right. Nice math!
              $endgroup$
              – Karl
              18 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              This equation was the one i always dreamt, attempted and miserably failed every time ;)...Kudos!!!
              $endgroup$
              – Nandakumar U K
              17 hours ago
















            $begingroup$
            So for heptane as the longest chain N=3 (2N+1 carbon atoms), that gives 53, correct. Pentane 17, correct. Hexane 26, also right. Nice math!
            $endgroup$
            – Karl
            18 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            So for heptane as the longest chain N=3 (2N+1 carbon atoms), that gives 53, correct. Pentane 17, correct. Hexane 26, also right. Nice math!
            $endgroup$
            – Karl
            18 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            This equation was the one i always dreamt, attempted and miserably failed every time ;)...Kudos!!!
            $endgroup$
            – Nandakumar U K
            17 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            This equation was the one i always dreamt, attempted and miserably failed every time ;)...Kudos!!!
            $endgroup$
            – Nandakumar U K
            17 hours ago


















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