Can “whose” refer to an inanimate object?












102
















We lit a fire whose fuel was old timber wood.




Is the word whose referring to fire, an inanimate object, correct in this sentence? Or is there a more appropriate word?










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    Related: 'Which', 'whose' or something else?

    – RegDwigнt
    Apr 30 '12 at 9:09
















102
















We lit a fire whose fuel was old timber wood.




Is the word whose referring to fire, an inanimate object, correct in this sentence? Or is there a more appropriate word?










share|improve this question




















  • 2





    Related: 'Which', 'whose' or something else?

    – RegDwigнt
    Apr 30 '12 at 9:09














102












102








102


26







We lit a fire whose fuel was old timber wood.




Is the word whose referring to fire, an inanimate object, correct in this sentence? Or is there a more appropriate word?










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We lit a fire whose fuel was old timber wood.




Is the word whose referring to fire, an inanimate object, correct in this sentence? Or is there a more appropriate word?







grammaticality pronouns possessives inanimate possessive-of-which






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edited Jan 20 '13 at 14:40









RegDwigнt

83k31281379




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asked May 2 '11 at 20:29









nicholas ainsworthnicholas ainsworth

4,6672971112




4,6672971112








  • 2





    Related: 'Which', 'whose' or something else?

    – RegDwigнt
    Apr 30 '12 at 9:09














  • 2





    Related: 'Which', 'whose' or something else?

    – RegDwigнt
    Apr 30 '12 at 9:09








2




2





Related: 'Which', 'whose' or something else?

– RegDwigнt
Apr 30 '12 at 9:09





Related: 'Which', 'whose' or something else?

– RegDwigнt
Apr 30 '12 at 9:09










5 Answers
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active

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92














The word "whose" is used in several different grammatical ways. For some of these (see my original answer below), it has been grammatical to use it for inanimate objects, at least since the days of Shakespeare. For others (see my update), it is only used for people or animals.



ORIGINAL ANSWER:



Many people seem to believe that you cannot use whose for inanimate objects, but I don't believe this was ever proscribed except by out-of-control grammarians. Consider the following quotes from Shakespeare (selected from many more quotes where whose refers to an inanimate object) and more recent authors:



Hamlet I.v




I could a tale unfold whose lightest
word

Would harrow up thy soul, freeze
thy young blood,




Two Gentlemen of Verona, III.ii




By wailful sonnets, whose composed rhymes

Should be full-fraught with serviceable vows.




Timon of Athens IV.iii




The sea's a thief, whose liquid surge resolves

The moon into salt tears:




Jane Austen also used whose to refer to inanimate objects:



Pride and Prejudice (1813)




On reaching the house, they were shown through the hall into the saloon, whose northern aspect rendered it delightful for summer.




Also F. Scott Fitzgerald:



The Great Gatsby (1925)




I walked out the back way ... and ran for a huge black knotted tree whose massed leaves made a fabric against the rain.




Not to mention Pat Conroy:



South of Broad (2010)




... as I walk down Church Street, whose palmetto trees are rattling and whose oaks shake with the ancient grief of storm.




UPDATE: I just realized that whose is used in several different grammatical ways. In some of these ways, I would never use whose for anything but a person or animal. In particular, one of whose's uses is as an interrogative pronoun, as in:




Whose shoes are these?

Whose are these shoes?




If you had some leaves, and were asking which tree they fell off of, you cannot say:




*Whose leaves are these?

*Whose are these leaves?




You have to say something like




Which tree's leaves are these?




But when it is a relative pronoun that immediately follows its antecedant, whose can be used for inanimate objects:




The tree whose leaves look like hands ....




This may be part of the cause of the confusion about whether whose can only be used for people or animals.






share|improve this answer





















  • 4





    There’s also a common idiom, an idea whose time has come.

    – Jason Orendorff
    May 2 '11 at 23:02






  • 5





    A random sample of 100 uses of whose from COCA included cases where it referred to a gene; a crime; a compact; a concept; a power company; a now-defunct Internet company; an exclusive resort hotel; Prague; one cave; Pakistan; entrances; parotid masses; light-water reactors; f-shaped holes; high-speed electrons; a model of change; a major city, Chunchikmil; aggressive life-threatening cancers; and the Russian Avant-Garde Foundation. So depending on what you consider “animate”, maybe 19% of the time whose refers to something inanimate.

    – Jason Orendorff
    May 2 '11 at 23:18






  • 4





    As one of those out-of-control grammarians, I like to make a distinction between "who" and "that" in sentences like "This is the knife that was used to kill" and "This is the person who is accused." English does not have a word similar to "whose" that is used for non-humans in the way we use "that" as opposed to "who." For OOC grammarians, like me, it would be nice to have something like "We lit a fire thats fuel was old timber wood," but we'll suffer through the ambiguity.

    – oosterwal
    Jan 4 '13 at 16:01






  • 4





    @oosterwal That marks you as not an OOC grammarian. A true OOCG would never say that it would be nice if the language had a feature that it lacks. They'd either simply say "whose is wrong for inanimate objects" or else go so far as to say "the correct word is thats and has been for everyone who speaks English properly since the dawn of time" even though they had zero evidence to back it up.

    – Jon Hanna
    Jan 20 '13 at 14:45






  • 3





    @Jon Hanna: not only that, they also delete answers claiming otherwise.

    – reinierpost
    Jan 29 '13 at 12:46



















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English whose is somewhat like Latin cuius or Spanish cuyo in that it is strictly a function word. It is just fine for anything at all. You cannot use which there.



However, it does make a difference whether you use whose as a relative pronoun or as an interrogative pronoun. This one is ok:




  • These are the fires whose fuel needs replenishing.


But this question:




  • Whose fires need replenishing?


is soliciting an answer of a person, not of a fire. To get the other answer, you have to say:




  • Which fires’ fuel needs replenishing?


You cannot say:




  • Whose fires’ fuels are running low?


And get back a list of fires instead of a list of persons.






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  • In fact we were taught in school where I was studying English that whose only restricted to inanimates...

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:36











  • Can I use which it there was singular number, e.g. in "the chair, which material..."?

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:38











  • You were taught incorrectly. You cannot use which in either place even when it's singular. You could say "the chair, of which the material ..."

    – Peter Shor
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:45













  • It's not that he was taught incorrectly (his post Q. being ok), he's just reversed things in the comment above. He meant animate, is what I think.

    – Kris
    Apr 30 '12 at 6:45











  • @Kris, indeed. Just a typo.

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 8:30



















7














"Whose" is also used to refer to a component of something inanimate and your original is perfectly grammatical. I wonder if you're inventing a problem where there isn't one. If you think using "whose" sounds a bit too formal, you could say e.g. "A camera with wires going through the wall", which would maybe be what people would say in everyday spontaneous speech. It's not clear to me that "a camera of which the wires..." is more common or natural than "a camera whose wires...".



As far as grammatical category is concerned, it really depends on your model and, depending on your model, exactly what type of analysis you're doing. As a fairly broad label, it's probably fair to group it with other "wh-words" ("when", "which" etc.).






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  • 1





    You're right, of course. Here are several thousand camera whose references in writing, the vast majority of which are the same possessive pronoun usage as OP's example.

    – FumbleFingers
    Jul 7 '11 at 2:01





















6














Wiktionary lists such usage as "formerly proscribed". Presumably this means some would still proscribe it, and others consider it correct.



Personally I have no problem with it, though I would probably say the following:




We lit a fire for which the fuel was old timber wood.




Or, better yet:




We lit a fire, using old timber wood for fuel.







share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    Wiktionary no longer says anything about this usage being "formerly proscribed".

    – Peter Shor
    Mar 21 '18 at 15:25



















-1














Colloquially, it is done. And it is acceptable for informal writing. You may even see it in some newspapers.



For formal writing, however, of which should be used, because whose is the possessive of who, and who does not refer to an inanimate object.






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    5 Answers
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    5 Answers
    5






    active

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    active

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    92














    The word "whose" is used in several different grammatical ways. For some of these (see my original answer below), it has been grammatical to use it for inanimate objects, at least since the days of Shakespeare. For others (see my update), it is only used for people or animals.



    ORIGINAL ANSWER:



    Many people seem to believe that you cannot use whose for inanimate objects, but I don't believe this was ever proscribed except by out-of-control grammarians. Consider the following quotes from Shakespeare (selected from many more quotes where whose refers to an inanimate object) and more recent authors:



    Hamlet I.v




    I could a tale unfold whose lightest
    word

    Would harrow up thy soul, freeze
    thy young blood,




    Two Gentlemen of Verona, III.ii




    By wailful sonnets, whose composed rhymes

    Should be full-fraught with serviceable vows.




    Timon of Athens IV.iii




    The sea's a thief, whose liquid surge resolves

    The moon into salt tears:




    Jane Austen also used whose to refer to inanimate objects:



    Pride and Prejudice (1813)




    On reaching the house, they were shown through the hall into the saloon, whose northern aspect rendered it delightful for summer.




    Also F. Scott Fitzgerald:



    The Great Gatsby (1925)




    I walked out the back way ... and ran for a huge black knotted tree whose massed leaves made a fabric against the rain.




    Not to mention Pat Conroy:



    South of Broad (2010)




    ... as I walk down Church Street, whose palmetto trees are rattling and whose oaks shake with the ancient grief of storm.




    UPDATE: I just realized that whose is used in several different grammatical ways. In some of these ways, I would never use whose for anything but a person or animal. In particular, one of whose's uses is as an interrogative pronoun, as in:




    Whose shoes are these?

    Whose are these shoes?




    If you had some leaves, and were asking which tree they fell off of, you cannot say:




    *Whose leaves are these?

    *Whose are these leaves?




    You have to say something like




    Which tree's leaves are these?




    But when it is a relative pronoun that immediately follows its antecedant, whose can be used for inanimate objects:




    The tree whose leaves look like hands ....




    This may be part of the cause of the confusion about whether whose can only be used for people or animals.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 4





      There’s also a common idiom, an idea whose time has come.

      – Jason Orendorff
      May 2 '11 at 23:02






    • 5





      A random sample of 100 uses of whose from COCA included cases where it referred to a gene; a crime; a compact; a concept; a power company; a now-defunct Internet company; an exclusive resort hotel; Prague; one cave; Pakistan; entrances; parotid masses; light-water reactors; f-shaped holes; high-speed electrons; a model of change; a major city, Chunchikmil; aggressive life-threatening cancers; and the Russian Avant-Garde Foundation. So depending on what you consider “animate”, maybe 19% of the time whose refers to something inanimate.

      – Jason Orendorff
      May 2 '11 at 23:18






    • 4





      As one of those out-of-control grammarians, I like to make a distinction between "who" and "that" in sentences like "This is the knife that was used to kill" and "This is the person who is accused." English does not have a word similar to "whose" that is used for non-humans in the way we use "that" as opposed to "who." For OOC grammarians, like me, it would be nice to have something like "We lit a fire thats fuel was old timber wood," but we'll suffer through the ambiguity.

      – oosterwal
      Jan 4 '13 at 16:01






    • 4





      @oosterwal That marks you as not an OOC grammarian. A true OOCG would never say that it would be nice if the language had a feature that it lacks. They'd either simply say "whose is wrong for inanimate objects" or else go so far as to say "the correct word is thats and has been for everyone who speaks English properly since the dawn of time" even though they had zero evidence to back it up.

      – Jon Hanna
      Jan 20 '13 at 14:45






    • 3





      @Jon Hanna: not only that, they also delete answers claiming otherwise.

      – reinierpost
      Jan 29 '13 at 12:46
















    92














    The word "whose" is used in several different grammatical ways. For some of these (see my original answer below), it has been grammatical to use it for inanimate objects, at least since the days of Shakespeare. For others (see my update), it is only used for people or animals.



    ORIGINAL ANSWER:



    Many people seem to believe that you cannot use whose for inanimate objects, but I don't believe this was ever proscribed except by out-of-control grammarians. Consider the following quotes from Shakespeare (selected from many more quotes where whose refers to an inanimate object) and more recent authors:



    Hamlet I.v




    I could a tale unfold whose lightest
    word

    Would harrow up thy soul, freeze
    thy young blood,




    Two Gentlemen of Verona, III.ii




    By wailful sonnets, whose composed rhymes

    Should be full-fraught with serviceable vows.




    Timon of Athens IV.iii




    The sea's a thief, whose liquid surge resolves

    The moon into salt tears:




    Jane Austen also used whose to refer to inanimate objects:



    Pride and Prejudice (1813)




    On reaching the house, they were shown through the hall into the saloon, whose northern aspect rendered it delightful for summer.




    Also F. Scott Fitzgerald:



    The Great Gatsby (1925)




    I walked out the back way ... and ran for a huge black knotted tree whose massed leaves made a fabric against the rain.




    Not to mention Pat Conroy:



    South of Broad (2010)




    ... as I walk down Church Street, whose palmetto trees are rattling and whose oaks shake with the ancient grief of storm.




    UPDATE: I just realized that whose is used in several different grammatical ways. In some of these ways, I would never use whose for anything but a person or animal. In particular, one of whose's uses is as an interrogative pronoun, as in:




    Whose shoes are these?

    Whose are these shoes?




    If you had some leaves, and were asking which tree they fell off of, you cannot say:




    *Whose leaves are these?

    *Whose are these leaves?




    You have to say something like




    Which tree's leaves are these?




    But when it is a relative pronoun that immediately follows its antecedant, whose can be used for inanimate objects:




    The tree whose leaves look like hands ....




    This may be part of the cause of the confusion about whether whose can only be used for people or animals.






    share|improve this answer





















    • 4





      There’s also a common idiom, an idea whose time has come.

      – Jason Orendorff
      May 2 '11 at 23:02






    • 5





      A random sample of 100 uses of whose from COCA included cases where it referred to a gene; a crime; a compact; a concept; a power company; a now-defunct Internet company; an exclusive resort hotel; Prague; one cave; Pakistan; entrances; parotid masses; light-water reactors; f-shaped holes; high-speed electrons; a model of change; a major city, Chunchikmil; aggressive life-threatening cancers; and the Russian Avant-Garde Foundation. So depending on what you consider “animate”, maybe 19% of the time whose refers to something inanimate.

      – Jason Orendorff
      May 2 '11 at 23:18






    • 4





      As one of those out-of-control grammarians, I like to make a distinction between "who" and "that" in sentences like "This is the knife that was used to kill" and "This is the person who is accused." English does not have a word similar to "whose" that is used for non-humans in the way we use "that" as opposed to "who." For OOC grammarians, like me, it would be nice to have something like "We lit a fire thats fuel was old timber wood," but we'll suffer through the ambiguity.

      – oosterwal
      Jan 4 '13 at 16:01






    • 4





      @oosterwal That marks you as not an OOC grammarian. A true OOCG would never say that it would be nice if the language had a feature that it lacks. They'd either simply say "whose is wrong for inanimate objects" or else go so far as to say "the correct word is thats and has been for everyone who speaks English properly since the dawn of time" even though they had zero evidence to back it up.

      – Jon Hanna
      Jan 20 '13 at 14:45






    • 3





      @Jon Hanna: not only that, they also delete answers claiming otherwise.

      – reinierpost
      Jan 29 '13 at 12:46














    92












    92








    92







    The word "whose" is used in several different grammatical ways. For some of these (see my original answer below), it has been grammatical to use it for inanimate objects, at least since the days of Shakespeare. For others (see my update), it is only used for people or animals.



    ORIGINAL ANSWER:



    Many people seem to believe that you cannot use whose for inanimate objects, but I don't believe this was ever proscribed except by out-of-control grammarians. Consider the following quotes from Shakespeare (selected from many more quotes where whose refers to an inanimate object) and more recent authors:



    Hamlet I.v




    I could a tale unfold whose lightest
    word

    Would harrow up thy soul, freeze
    thy young blood,




    Two Gentlemen of Verona, III.ii




    By wailful sonnets, whose composed rhymes

    Should be full-fraught with serviceable vows.




    Timon of Athens IV.iii




    The sea's a thief, whose liquid surge resolves

    The moon into salt tears:




    Jane Austen also used whose to refer to inanimate objects:



    Pride and Prejudice (1813)




    On reaching the house, they were shown through the hall into the saloon, whose northern aspect rendered it delightful for summer.




    Also F. Scott Fitzgerald:



    The Great Gatsby (1925)




    I walked out the back way ... and ran for a huge black knotted tree whose massed leaves made a fabric against the rain.




    Not to mention Pat Conroy:



    South of Broad (2010)




    ... as I walk down Church Street, whose palmetto trees are rattling and whose oaks shake with the ancient grief of storm.




    UPDATE: I just realized that whose is used in several different grammatical ways. In some of these ways, I would never use whose for anything but a person or animal. In particular, one of whose's uses is as an interrogative pronoun, as in:




    Whose shoes are these?

    Whose are these shoes?




    If you had some leaves, and were asking which tree they fell off of, you cannot say:




    *Whose leaves are these?

    *Whose are these leaves?




    You have to say something like




    Which tree's leaves are these?




    But when it is a relative pronoun that immediately follows its antecedant, whose can be used for inanimate objects:




    The tree whose leaves look like hands ....




    This may be part of the cause of the confusion about whether whose can only be used for people or animals.






    share|improve this answer















    The word "whose" is used in several different grammatical ways. For some of these (see my original answer below), it has been grammatical to use it for inanimate objects, at least since the days of Shakespeare. For others (see my update), it is only used for people or animals.



    ORIGINAL ANSWER:



    Many people seem to believe that you cannot use whose for inanimate objects, but I don't believe this was ever proscribed except by out-of-control grammarians. Consider the following quotes from Shakespeare (selected from many more quotes where whose refers to an inanimate object) and more recent authors:



    Hamlet I.v




    I could a tale unfold whose lightest
    word

    Would harrow up thy soul, freeze
    thy young blood,




    Two Gentlemen of Verona, III.ii




    By wailful sonnets, whose composed rhymes

    Should be full-fraught with serviceable vows.




    Timon of Athens IV.iii




    The sea's a thief, whose liquid surge resolves

    The moon into salt tears:




    Jane Austen also used whose to refer to inanimate objects:



    Pride and Prejudice (1813)




    On reaching the house, they were shown through the hall into the saloon, whose northern aspect rendered it delightful for summer.




    Also F. Scott Fitzgerald:



    The Great Gatsby (1925)




    I walked out the back way ... and ran for a huge black knotted tree whose massed leaves made a fabric against the rain.




    Not to mention Pat Conroy:



    South of Broad (2010)




    ... as I walk down Church Street, whose palmetto trees are rattling and whose oaks shake with the ancient grief of storm.




    UPDATE: I just realized that whose is used in several different grammatical ways. In some of these ways, I would never use whose for anything but a person or animal. In particular, one of whose's uses is as an interrogative pronoun, as in:




    Whose shoes are these?

    Whose are these shoes?




    If you had some leaves, and were asking which tree they fell off of, you cannot say:




    *Whose leaves are these?

    *Whose are these leaves?




    You have to say something like




    Which tree's leaves are these?




    But when it is a relative pronoun that immediately follows its antecedant, whose can be used for inanimate objects:




    The tree whose leaves look like hands ....




    This may be part of the cause of the confusion about whether whose can only be used for people or animals.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Dec 22 '15 at 23:07

























    answered May 2 '11 at 20:50









    Peter Shor Peter Shor

    62.2k5118224




    62.2k5118224








    • 4





      There’s also a common idiom, an idea whose time has come.

      – Jason Orendorff
      May 2 '11 at 23:02






    • 5





      A random sample of 100 uses of whose from COCA included cases where it referred to a gene; a crime; a compact; a concept; a power company; a now-defunct Internet company; an exclusive resort hotel; Prague; one cave; Pakistan; entrances; parotid masses; light-water reactors; f-shaped holes; high-speed electrons; a model of change; a major city, Chunchikmil; aggressive life-threatening cancers; and the Russian Avant-Garde Foundation. So depending on what you consider “animate”, maybe 19% of the time whose refers to something inanimate.

      – Jason Orendorff
      May 2 '11 at 23:18






    • 4





      As one of those out-of-control grammarians, I like to make a distinction between "who" and "that" in sentences like "This is the knife that was used to kill" and "This is the person who is accused." English does not have a word similar to "whose" that is used for non-humans in the way we use "that" as opposed to "who." For OOC grammarians, like me, it would be nice to have something like "We lit a fire thats fuel was old timber wood," but we'll suffer through the ambiguity.

      – oosterwal
      Jan 4 '13 at 16:01






    • 4





      @oosterwal That marks you as not an OOC grammarian. A true OOCG would never say that it would be nice if the language had a feature that it lacks. They'd either simply say "whose is wrong for inanimate objects" or else go so far as to say "the correct word is thats and has been for everyone who speaks English properly since the dawn of time" even though they had zero evidence to back it up.

      – Jon Hanna
      Jan 20 '13 at 14:45






    • 3





      @Jon Hanna: not only that, they also delete answers claiming otherwise.

      – reinierpost
      Jan 29 '13 at 12:46














    • 4





      There’s also a common idiom, an idea whose time has come.

      – Jason Orendorff
      May 2 '11 at 23:02






    • 5





      A random sample of 100 uses of whose from COCA included cases where it referred to a gene; a crime; a compact; a concept; a power company; a now-defunct Internet company; an exclusive resort hotel; Prague; one cave; Pakistan; entrances; parotid masses; light-water reactors; f-shaped holes; high-speed electrons; a model of change; a major city, Chunchikmil; aggressive life-threatening cancers; and the Russian Avant-Garde Foundation. So depending on what you consider “animate”, maybe 19% of the time whose refers to something inanimate.

      – Jason Orendorff
      May 2 '11 at 23:18






    • 4





      As one of those out-of-control grammarians, I like to make a distinction between "who" and "that" in sentences like "This is the knife that was used to kill" and "This is the person who is accused." English does not have a word similar to "whose" that is used for non-humans in the way we use "that" as opposed to "who." For OOC grammarians, like me, it would be nice to have something like "We lit a fire thats fuel was old timber wood," but we'll suffer through the ambiguity.

      – oosterwal
      Jan 4 '13 at 16:01






    • 4





      @oosterwal That marks you as not an OOC grammarian. A true OOCG would never say that it would be nice if the language had a feature that it lacks. They'd either simply say "whose is wrong for inanimate objects" or else go so far as to say "the correct word is thats and has been for everyone who speaks English properly since the dawn of time" even though they had zero evidence to back it up.

      – Jon Hanna
      Jan 20 '13 at 14:45






    • 3





      @Jon Hanna: not only that, they also delete answers claiming otherwise.

      – reinierpost
      Jan 29 '13 at 12:46








    4




    4





    There’s also a common idiom, an idea whose time has come.

    – Jason Orendorff
    May 2 '11 at 23:02





    There’s also a common idiom, an idea whose time has come.

    – Jason Orendorff
    May 2 '11 at 23:02




    5




    5





    A random sample of 100 uses of whose from COCA included cases where it referred to a gene; a crime; a compact; a concept; a power company; a now-defunct Internet company; an exclusive resort hotel; Prague; one cave; Pakistan; entrances; parotid masses; light-water reactors; f-shaped holes; high-speed electrons; a model of change; a major city, Chunchikmil; aggressive life-threatening cancers; and the Russian Avant-Garde Foundation. So depending on what you consider “animate”, maybe 19% of the time whose refers to something inanimate.

    – Jason Orendorff
    May 2 '11 at 23:18





    A random sample of 100 uses of whose from COCA included cases where it referred to a gene; a crime; a compact; a concept; a power company; a now-defunct Internet company; an exclusive resort hotel; Prague; one cave; Pakistan; entrances; parotid masses; light-water reactors; f-shaped holes; high-speed electrons; a model of change; a major city, Chunchikmil; aggressive life-threatening cancers; and the Russian Avant-Garde Foundation. So depending on what you consider “animate”, maybe 19% of the time whose refers to something inanimate.

    – Jason Orendorff
    May 2 '11 at 23:18




    4




    4





    As one of those out-of-control grammarians, I like to make a distinction between "who" and "that" in sentences like "This is the knife that was used to kill" and "This is the person who is accused." English does not have a word similar to "whose" that is used for non-humans in the way we use "that" as opposed to "who." For OOC grammarians, like me, it would be nice to have something like "We lit a fire thats fuel was old timber wood," but we'll suffer through the ambiguity.

    – oosterwal
    Jan 4 '13 at 16:01





    As one of those out-of-control grammarians, I like to make a distinction between "who" and "that" in sentences like "This is the knife that was used to kill" and "This is the person who is accused." English does not have a word similar to "whose" that is used for non-humans in the way we use "that" as opposed to "who." For OOC grammarians, like me, it would be nice to have something like "We lit a fire thats fuel was old timber wood," but we'll suffer through the ambiguity.

    – oosterwal
    Jan 4 '13 at 16:01




    4




    4





    @oosterwal That marks you as not an OOC grammarian. A true OOCG would never say that it would be nice if the language had a feature that it lacks. They'd either simply say "whose is wrong for inanimate objects" or else go so far as to say "the correct word is thats and has been for everyone who speaks English properly since the dawn of time" even though they had zero evidence to back it up.

    – Jon Hanna
    Jan 20 '13 at 14:45





    @oosterwal That marks you as not an OOC grammarian. A true OOCG would never say that it would be nice if the language had a feature that it lacks. They'd either simply say "whose is wrong for inanimate objects" or else go so far as to say "the correct word is thats and has been for everyone who speaks English properly since the dawn of time" even though they had zero evidence to back it up.

    – Jon Hanna
    Jan 20 '13 at 14:45




    3




    3





    @Jon Hanna: not only that, they also delete answers claiming otherwise.

    – reinierpost
    Jan 29 '13 at 12:46





    @Jon Hanna: not only that, they also delete answers claiming otherwise.

    – reinierpost
    Jan 29 '13 at 12:46













    32














    English whose is somewhat like Latin cuius or Spanish cuyo in that it is strictly a function word. It is just fine for anything at all. You cannot use which there.



    However, it does make a difference whether you use whose as a relative pronoun or as an interrogative pronoun. This one is ok:




    • These are the fires whose fuel needs replenishing.


    But this question:




    • Whose fires need replenishing?


    is soliciting an answer of a person, not of a fire. To get the other answer, you have to say:




    • Which fires’ fuel needs replenishing?


    You cannot say:




    • Whose fires’ fuels are running low?


    And get back a list of fires instead of a list of persons.






    share|improve this answer


























    • In fact we were taught in school where I was studying English that whose only restricted to inanimates...

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:36











    • Can I use which it there was singular number, e.g. in "the chair, which material..."?

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:38











    • You were taught incorrectly. You cannot use which in either place even when it's singular. You could say "the chair, of which the material ..."

      – Peter Shor
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:45













    • It's not that he was taught incorrectly (his post Q. being ok), he's just reversed things in the comment above. He meant animate, is what I think.

      – Kris
      Apr 30 '12 at 6:45











    • @Kris, indeed. Just a typo.

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 8:30
















    32














    English whose is somewhat like Latin cuius or Spanish cuyo in that it is strictly a function word. It is just fine for anything at all. You cannot use which there.



    However, it does make a difference whether you use whose as a relative pronoun or as an interrogative pronoun. This one is ok:




    • These are the fires whose fuel needs replenishing.


    But this question:




    • Whose fires need replenishing?


    is soliciting an answer of a person, not of a fire. To get the other answer, you have to say:




    • Which fires’ fuel needs replenishing?


    You cannot say:




    • Whose fires’ fuels are running low?


    And get back a list of fires instead of a list of persons.






    share|improve this answer


























    • In fact we were taught in school where I was studying English that whose only restricted to inanimates...

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:36











    • Can I use which it there was singular number, e.g. in "the chair, which material..."?

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:38











    • You were taught incorrectly. You cannot use which in either place even when it's singular. You could say "the chair, of which the material ..."

      – Peter Shor
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:45













    • It's not that he was taught incorrectly (his post Q. being ok), he's just reversed things in the comment above. He meant animate, is what I think.

      – Kris
      Apr 30 '12 at 6:45











    • @Kris, indeed. Just a typo.

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 8:30














    32












    32








    32







    English whose is somewhat like Latin cuius or Spanish cuyo in that it is strictly a function word. It is just fine for anything at all. You cannot use which there.



    However, it does make a difference whether you use whose as a relative pronoun or as an interrogative pronoun. This one is ok:




    • These are the fires whose fuel needs replenishing.


    But this question:




    • Whose fires need replenishing?


    is soliciting an answer of a person, not of a fire. To get the other answer, you have to say:




    • Which fires’ fuel needs replenishing?


    You cannot say:




    • Whose fires’ fuels are running low?


    And get back a list of fires instead of a list of persons.






    share|improve this answer















    English whose is somewhat like Latin cuius or Spanish cuyo in that it is strictly a function word. It is just fine for anything at all. You cannot use which there.



    However, it does make a difference whether you use whose as a relative pronoun or as an interrogative pronoun. This one is ok:




    • These are the fires whose fuel needs replenishing.


    But this question:




    • Whose fires need replenishing?


    is soliciting an answer of a person, not of a fire. To get the other answer, you have to say:




    • Which fires’ fuel needs replenishing?


    You cannot say:




    • Whose fires’ fuels are running low?


    And get back a list of fires instead of a list of persons.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Jan 4 '13 at 15:46

























    answered Apr 30 '12 at 2:25









    tchristtchrist

    109k28290465




    109k28290465













    • In fact we were taught in school where I was studying English that whose only restricted to inanimates...

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:36











    • Can I use which it there was singular number, e.g. in "the chair, which material..."?

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:38











    • You were taught incorrectly. You cannot use which in either place even when it's singular. You could say "the chair, of which the material ..."

      – Peter Shor
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:45













    • It's not that he was taught incorrectly (his post Q. being ok), he's just reversed things in the comment above. He meant animate, is what I think.

      – Kris
      Apr 30 '12 at 6:45











    • @Kris, indeed. Just a typo.

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 8:30



















    • In fact we were taught in school where I was studying English that whose only restricted to inanimates...

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:36











    • Can I use which it there was singular number, e.g. in "the chair, which material..."?

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:38











    • You were taught incorrectly. You cannot use which in either place even when it's singular. You could say "the chair, of which the material ..."

      – Peter Shor
      Apr 30 '12 at 2:45













    • It's not that he was taught incorrectly (his post Q. being ok), he's just reversed things in the comment above. He meant animate, is what I think.

      – Kris
      Apr 30 '12 at 6:45











    • @Kris, indeed. Just a typo.

      – Anixx
      Apr 30 '12 at 8:30

















    In fact we were taught in school where I was studying English that whose only restricted to inanimates...

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:36





    In fact we were taught in school where I was studying English that whose only restricted to inanimates...

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:36













    Can I use which it there was singular number, e.g. in "the chair, which material..."?

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:38





    Can I use which it there was singular number, e.g. in "the chair, which material..."?

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:38













    You were taught incorrectly. You cannot use which in either place even when it's singular. You could say "the chair, of which the material ..."

    – Peter Shor
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:45







    You were taught incorrectly. You cannot use which in either place even when it's singular. You could say "the chair, of which the material ..."

    – Peter Shor
    Apr 30 '12 at 2:45















    It's not that he was taught incorrectly (his post Q. being ok), he's just reversed things in the comment above. He meant animate, is what I think.

    – Kris
    Apr 30 '12 at 6:45





    It's not that he was taught incorrectly (his post Q. being ok), he's just reversed things in the comment above. He meant animate, is what I think.

    – Kris
    Apr 30 '12 at 6:45













    @Kris, indeed. Just a typo.

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 8:30





    @Kris, indeed. Just a typo.

    – Anixx
    Apr 30 '12 at 8:30











    7














    "Whose" is also used to refer to a component of something inanimate and your original is perfectly grammatical. I wonder if you're inventing a problem where there isn't one. If you think using "whose" sounds a bit too formal, you could say e.g. "A camera with wires going through the wall", which would maybe be what people would say in everyday spontaneous speech. It's not clear to me that "a camera of which the wires..." is more common or natural than "a camera whose wires...".



    As far as grammatical category is concerned, it really depends on your model and, depending on your model, exactly what type of analysis you're doing. As a fairly broad label, it's probably fair to group it with other "wh-words" ("when", "which" etc.).






    share|improve this answer





















    • 1





      You're right, of course. Here are several thousand camera whose references in writing, the vast majority of which are the same possessive pronoun usage as OP's example.

      – FumbleFingers
      Jul 7 '11 at 2:01


















    7














    "Whose" is also used to refer to a component of something inanimate and your original is perfectly grammatical. I wonder if you're inventing a problem where there isn't one. If you think using "whose" sounds a bit too formal, you could say e.g. "A camera with wires going through the wall", which would maybe be what people would say in everyday spontaneous speech. It's not clear to me that "a camera of which the wires..." is more common or natural than "a camera whose wires...".



    As far as grammatical category is concerned, it really depends on your model and, depending on your model, exactly what type of analysis you're doing. As a fairly broad label, it's probably fair to group it with other "wh-words" ("when", "which" etc.).






    share|improve this answer





















    • 1





      You're right, of course. Here are several thousand camera whose references in writing, the vast majority of which are the same possessive pronoun usage as OP's example.

      – FumbleFingers
      Jul 7 '11 at 2:01
















    7












    7








    7







    "Whose" is also used to refer to a component of something inanimate and your original is perfectly grammatical. I wonder if you're inventing a problem where there isn't one. If you think using "whose" sounds a bit too formal, you could say e.g. "A camera with wires going through the wall", which would maybe be what people would say in everyday spontaneous speech. It's not clear to me that "a camera of which the wires..." is more common or natural than "a camera whose wires...".



    As far as grammatical category is concerned, it really depends on your model and, depending on your model, exactly what type of analysis you're doing. As a fairly broad label, it's probably fair to group it with other "wh-words" ("when", "which" etc.).






    share|improve this answer















    "Whose" is also used to refer to a component of something inanimate and your original is perfectly grammatical. I wonder if you're inventing a problem where there isn't one. If you think using "whose" sounds a bit too formal, you could say e.g. "A camera with wires going through the wall", which would maybe be what people would say in everyday spontaneous speech. It's not clear to me that "a camera of which the wires..." is more common or natural than "a camera whose wires...".



    As far as grammatical category is concerned, it really depends on your model and, depending on your model, exactly what type of analysis you're doing. As a fairly broad label, it's probably fair to group it with other "wh-words" ("when", "which" etc.).







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Apr 30 '12 at 8:49









    RegDwigнt

    83k31281379




    83k31281379










    answered Jul 7 '11 at 1:33









    Neil CoffeyNeil Coffey

    18.1k13268




    18.1k13268








    • 1





      You're right, of course. Here are several thousand camera whose references in writing, the vast majority of which are the same possessive pronoun usage as OP's example.

      – FumbleFingers
      Jul 7 '11 at 2:01
















    • 1





      You're right, of course. Here are several thousand camera whose references in writing, the vast majority of which are the same possessive pronoun usage as OP's example.

      – FumbleFingers
      Jul 7 '11 at 2:01










    1




    1





    You're right, of course. Here are several thousand camera whose references in writing, the vast majority of which are the same possessive pronoun usage as OP's example.

    – FumbleFingers
    Jul 7 '11 at 2:01







    You're right, of course. Here are several thousand camera whose references in writing, the vast majority of which are the same possessive pronoun usage as OP's example.

    – FumbleFingers
    Jul 7 '11 at 2:01













    6














    Wiktionary lists such usage as "formerly proscribed". Presumably this means some would still proscribe it, and others consider it correct.



    Personally I have no problem with it, though I would probably say the following:




    We lit a fire for which the fuel was old timber wood.




    Or, better yet:




    We lit a fire, using old timber wood for fuel.







    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      Wiktionary no longer says anything about this usage being "formerly proscribed".

      – Peter Shor
      Mar 21 '18 at 15:25
















    6














    Wiktionary lists such usage as "formerly proscribed". Presumably this means some would still proscribe it, and others consider it correct.



    Personally I have no problem with it, though I would probably say the following:




    We lit a fire for which the fuel was old timber wood.




    Or, better yet:




    We lit a fire, using old timber wood for fuel.







    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      Wiktionary no longer says anything about this usage being "formerly proscribed".

      – Peter Shor
      Mar 21 '18 at 15:25














    6












    6








    6







    Wiktionary lists such usage as "formerly proscribed". Presumably this means some would still proscribe it, and others consider it correct.



    Personally I have no problem with it, though I would probably say the following:




    We lit a fire for which the fuel was old timber wood.




    Or, better yet:




    We lit a fire, using old timber wood for fuel.







    share|improve this answer













    Wiktionary lists such usage as "formerly proscribed". Presumably this means some would still proscribe it, and others consider it correct.



    Personally I have no problem with it, though I would probably say the following:




    We lit a fire for which the fuel was old timber wood.




    Or, better yet:




    We lit a fire, using old timber wood for fuel.








    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered May 2 '11 at 20:36









    Matthew ReadMatthew Read

    2,9491935




    2,9491935








    • 1





      Wiktionary no longer says anything about this usage being "formerly proscribed".

      – Peter Shor
      Mar 21 '18 at 15:25














    • 1





      Wiktionary no longer says anything about this usage being "formerly proscribed".

      – Peter Shor
      Mar 21 '18 at 15:25








    1




    1





    Wiktionary no longer says anything about this usage being "formerly proscribed".

    – Peter Shor
    Mar 21 '18 at 15:25





    Wiktionary no longer says anything about this usage being "formerly proscribed".

    – Peter Shor
    Mar 21 '18 at 15:25











    -1














    Colloquially, it is done. And it is acceptable for informal writing. You may even see it in some newspapers.



    For formal writing, however, of which should be used, because whose is the possessive of who, and who does not refer to an inanimate object.






    share|improve this answer




























      -1














      Colloquially, it is done. And it is acceptable for informal writing. You may even see it in some newspapers.



      For formal writing, however, of which should be used, because whose is the possessive of who, and who does not refer to an inanimate object.






      share|improve this answer


























        -1












        -1








        -1







        Colloquially, it is done. And it is acceptable for informal writing. You may even see it in some newspapers.



        For formal writing, however, of which should be used, because whose is the possessive of who, and who does not refer to an inanimate object.






        share|improve this answer













        Colloquially, it is done. And it is acceptable for informal writing. You may even see it in some newspapers.



        For formal writing, however, of which should be used, because whose is the possessive of who, and who does not refer to an inanimate object.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Dec 22 '15 at 17:25









        BobBob

        1192




        1192

















            protected by RegDwigнt May 2 '14 at 9:13



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