What fallacy is assuming something is the case because of past events
I'm sure this is a simple question. What I am referring to is disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20.
Another example is the boy who cried wolf. The 50th time he cries "Wolf!" nobody believes him.
As a matter of practicality it's perfectly reasonable to disbelieve someone on Day 20 or take the cry of "Wolf!" to be false, as we've established through experience that a person lies, and so we judge probabilities (unconsciously maybe) and choose not to believe them.
However I'm asking from a purely logical perspective. If a witness lies many times, their credibility is severely hurt, but it would technically be a fallacy to say their last testimony was a lie because:
1.The witness has lied ten times to 13 questions.
2.The witness has a tendency to lie.
3.The last statement from the witness is a lie. (invalid conclusion)
What comes to my mind is "hasty generalization". However "hasty generalization" is defined by Wikipedia as:
... a conclusion about all or many instances of a phenomenon that has
been reached on the basis of just one or just a few instances of that
phenomenon. It is an example of jumping to conclusions.
Faulty generalization (hasty)
Notice it says based on just one or just a few. I think this excludes my examples because the conclusion is not based on just one or few instances, but in some cases many, for example 30 instances.
I agree that it is "jumping to conclusions", but I feel there's a more accurate term for it. I feel there's a term for something like:
- Just because it's happened in the past (even every time) doesn't mean it'll happen now (even though the odds are in favor it happening).
Also, I know this is related to the problem of induction, (You don't know that the sun will rise tomorrow), but that's not a name of a fallacy.
logic fallacies argumentation induction
|
show 11 more comments
I'm sure this is a simple question. What I am referring to is disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20.
Another example is the boy who cried wolf. The 50th time he cries "Wolf!" nobody believes him.
As a matter of practicality it's perfectly reasonable to disbelieve someone on Day 20 or take the cry of "Wolf!" to be false, as we've established through experience that a person lies, and so we judge probabilities (unconsciously maybe) and choose not to believe them.
However I'm asking from a purely logical perspective. If a witness lies many times, their credibility is severely hurt, but it would technically be a fallacy to say their last testimony was a lie because:
1.The witness has lied ten times to 13 questions.
2.The witness has a tendency to lie.
3.The last statement from the witness is a lie. (invalid conclusion)
What comes to my mind is "hasty generalization". However "hasty generalization" is defined by Wikipedia as:
... a conclusion about all or many instances of a phenomenon that has
been reached on the basis of just one or just a few instances of that
phenomenon. It is an example of jumping to conclusions.
Faulty generalization (hasty)
Notice it says based on just one or just a few. I think this excludes my examples because the conclusion is not based on just one or few instances, but in some cases many, for example 30 instances.
I agree that it is "jumping to conclusions", but I feel there's a more accurate term for it. I feel there's a term for something like:
- Just because it's happened in the past (even every time) doesn't mean it'll happen now (even though the odds are in favor it happening).
Also, I know this is related to the problem of induction, (You don't know that the sun will rise tomorrow), but that's not a name of a fallacy.
logic fallacies argumentation induction
If you decide to accept your community answer, you might want to edit your question to take into account the comment I left on the answer, about how the question here, as worded, does not necessarily present any fallacy.
– Aaron
yesterday
@Aaron I'm sorry, I don't understand. If I say he's lying about that wolf because the past 19 times he's lied about it, isn't that a clear fallacy? Same as the witness has lied 10 times to 13 questions, the witness must be lying now.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
No, that is not necessarily a fallacy. If there is the assumption (even if unspoken) that "He lied 100% of the last 19 times" means that it is impossible for the 20th statement to be true, then there is a fallacy. But it is common for "he's lying" to imply an "(I believe based on the probability that) he's lying", rather than "he's lying (because it is impossible for him to tell the truth)", which is not a fallacy. Belief does not necessarily imply an assertion that the belief is infallible, and with reasonable people the assumption is that beliefs are fallible.
– Aaron
yesterday
Are you only asking about patterns of human behavior, or any pattern? Like the fallacy of assuming that the Sun will rise tomorrow, simply because it has only happened every day for the past 5 billion years?
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Tongue-in-cheek, I call this "the principle of complete intimidation". (Basically it is mathematical induction gone wrong. Or perhaps better, gone less mathematical.)
– Marnix Klooster
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
I'm sure this is a simple question. What I am referring to is disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20.
Another example is the boy who cried wolf. The 50th time he cries "Wolf!" nobody believes him.
As a matter of practicality it's perfectly reasonable to disbelieve someone on Day 20 or take the cry of "Wolf!" to be false, as we've established through experience that a person lies, and so we judge probabilities (unconsciously maybe) and choose not to believe them.
However I'm asking from a purely logical perspective. If a witness lies many times, their credibility is severely hurt, but it would technically be a fallacy to say their last testimony was a lie because:
1.The witness has lied ten times to 13 questions.
2.The witness has a tendency to lie.
3.The last statement from the witness is a lie. (invalid conclusion)
What comes to my mind is "hasty generalization". However "hasty generalization" is defined by Wikipedia as:
... a conclusion about all or many instances of a phenomenon that has
been reached on the basis of just one or just a few instances of that
phenomenon. It is an example of jumping to conclusions.
Faulty generalization (hasty)
Notice it says based on just one or just a few. I think this excludes my examples because the conclusion is not based on just one or few instances, but in some cases many, for example 30 instances.
I agree that it is "jumping to conclusions", but I feel there's a more accurate term for it. I feel there's a term for something like:
- Just because it's happened in the past (even every time) doesn't mean it'll happen now (even though the odds are in favor it happening).
Also, I know this is related to the problem of induction, (You don't know that the sun will rise tomorrow), but that's not a name of a fallacy.
logic fallacies argumentation induction
I'm sure this is a simple question. What I am referring to is disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20.
Another example is the boy who cried wolf. The 50th time he cries "Wolf!" nobody believes him.
As a matter of practicality it's perfectly reasonable to disbelieve someone on Day 20 or take the cry of "Wolf!" to be false, as we've established through experience that a person lies, and so we judge probabilities (unconsciously maybe) and choose not to believe them.
However I'm asking from a purely logical perspective. If a witness lies many times, their credibility is severely hurt, but it would technically be a fallacy to say their last testimony was a lie because:
1.The witness has lied ten times to 13 questions.
2.The witness has a tendency to lie.
3.The last statement from the witness is a lie. (invalid conclusion)
What comes to my mind is "hasty generalization". However "hasty generalization" is defined by Wikipedia as:
... a conclusion about all or many instances of a phenomenon that has
been reached on the basis of just one or just a few instances of that
phenomenon. It is an example of jumping to conclusions.
Faulty generalization (hasty)
Notice it says based on just one or just a few. I think this excludes my examples because the conclusion is not based on just one or few instances, but in some cases many, for example 30 instances.
I agree that it is "jumping to conclusions", but I feel there's a more accurate term for it. I feel there's a term for something like:
- Just because it's happened in the past (even every time) doesn't mean it'll happen now (even though the odds are in favor it happening).
Also, I know this is related to the problem of induction, (You don't know that the sun will rise tomorrow), but that's not a name of a fallacy.
logic fallacies argumentation induction
logic fallacies argumentation induction
edited 19 hours ago
Jishin Noben
59719
59719
asked yesterday
ZebrafishZebrafish
33619
33619
If you decide to accept your community answer, you might want to edit your question to take into account the comment I left on the answer, about how the question here, as worded, does not necessarily present any fallacy.
– Aaron
yesterday
@Aaron I'm sorry, I don't understand. If I say he's lying about that wolf because the past 19 times he's lied about it, isn't that a clear fallacy? Same as the witness has lied 10 times to 13 questions, the witness must be lying now.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
No, that is not necessarily a fallacy. If there is the assumption (even if unspoken) that "He lied 100% of the last 19 times" means that it is impossible for the 20th statement to be true, then there is a fallacy. But it is common for "he's lying" to imply an "(I believe based on the probability that) he's lying", rather than "he's lying (because it is impossible for him to tell the truth)", which is not a fallacy. Belief does not necessarily imply an assertion that the belief is infallible, and with reasonable people the assumption is that beliefs are fallible.
– Aaron
yesterday
Are you only asking about patterns of human behavior, or any pattern? Like the fallacy of assuming that the Sun will rise tomorrow, simply because it has only happened every day for the past 5 billion years?
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Tongue-in-cheek, I call this "the principle of complete intimidation". (Basically it is mathematical induction gone wrong. Or perhaps better, gone less mathematical.)
– Marnix Klooster
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
If you decide to accept your community answer, you might want to edit your question to take into account the comment I left on the answer, about how the question here, as worded, does not necessarily present any fallacy.
– Aaron
yesterday
@Aaron I'm sorry, I don't understand. If I say he's lying about that wolf because the past 19 times he's lied about it, isn't that a clear fallacy? Same as the witness has lied 10 times to 13 questions, the witness must be lying now.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
No, that is not necessarily a fallacy. If there is the assumption (even if unspoken) that "He lied 100% of the last 19 times" means that it is impossible for the 20th statement to be true, then there is a fallacy. But it is common for "he's lying" to imply an "(I believe based on the probability that) he's lying", rather than "he's lying (because it is impossible for him to tell the truth)", which is not a fallacy. Belief does not necessarily imply an assertion that the belief is infallible, and with reasonable people the assumption is that beliefs are fallible.
– Aaron
yesterday
Are you only asking about patterns of human behavior, or any pattern? Like the fallacy of assuming that the Sun will rise tomorrow, simply because it has only happened every day for the past 5 billion years?
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Tongue-in-cheek, I call this "the principle of complete intimidation". (Basically it is mathematical induction gone wrong. Or perhaps better, gone less mathematical.)
– Marnix Klooster
yesterday
If you decide to accept your community answer, you might want to edit your question to take into account the comment I left on the answer, about how the question here, as worded, does not necessarily present any fallacy.
– Aaron
yesterday
If you decide to accept your community answer, you might want to edit your question to take into account the comment I left on the answer, about how the question here, as worded, does not necessarily present any fallacy.
– Aaron
yesterday
@Aaron I'm sorry, I don't understand. If I say he's lying about that wolf because the past 19 times he's lied about it, isn't that a clear fallacy? Same as the witness has lied 10 times to 13 questions, the witness must be lying now.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
@Aaron I'm sorry, I don't understand. If I say he's lying about that wolf because the past 19 times he's lied about it, isn't that a clear fallacy? Same as the witness has lied 10 times to 13 questions, the witness must be lying now.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
10
No, that is not necessarily a fallacy. If there is the assumption (even if unspoken) that "He lied 100% of the last 19 times" means that it is impossible for the 20th statement to be true, then there is a fallacy. But it is common for "he's lying" to imply an "(I believe based on the probability that) he's lying", rather than "he's lying (because it is impossible for him to tell the truth)", which is not a fallacy. Belief does not necessarily imply an assertion that the belief is infallible, and with reasonable people the assumption is that beliefs are fallible.
– Aaron
yesterday
No, that is not necessarily a fallacy. If there is the assumption (even if unspoken) that "He lied 100% of the last 19 times" means that it is impossible for the 20th statement to be true, then there is a fallacy. But it is common for "he's lying" to imply an "(I believe based on the probability that) he's lying", rather than "he's lying (because it is impossible for him to tell the truth)", which is not a fallacy. Belief does not necessarily imply an assertion that the belief is infallible, and with reasonable people the assumption is that beliefs are fallible.
– Aaron
yesterday
Are you only asking about patterns of human behavior, or any pattern? Like the fallacy of assuming that the Sun will rise tomorrow, simply because it has only happened every day for the past 5 billion years?
– Barmar
yesterday
Are you only asking about patterns of human behavior, or any pattern? Like the fallacy of assuming that the Sun will rise tomorrow, simply because it has only happened every day for the past 5 billion years?
– Barmar
yesterday
1
1
Tongue-in-cheek, I call this "the principle of complete intimidation". (Basically it is mathematical induction gone wrong. Or perhaps better, gone less mathematical.)
– Marnix Klooster
yesterday
Tongue-in-cheek, I call this "the principle of complete intimidation". (Basically it is mathematical induction gone wrong. Or perhaps better, gone less mathematical.)
– Marnix Klooster
yesterday
|
show 11 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
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This is not a fallacy, just the old problem of induction. A case of hasty generalisation would be to conclude that the witness tends to lie, if you have observed it two times in a row.
I appreciate your answer. Hasty generalization is described as a fallacy both in the fallacy and faulty generalization articles in Wikipedia, as well as in other sources. I'm not sure if you're saying it's not a fallacy. Also, I'm not sure concluding the witness tends to lie is a hasty generalization, I believe the final conclusion that the last testimony was a lie is a hasty generalization. I might be wrong.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
@Zebrafish Hasty generalisation is a fallacy. But if you conclude that on day 21 someone is lying if you have observed him to do so the 20 days before is not fallacious. You cannot know for certain, but that is the problem of induction. It is definitely no logical fallacy, since nobody claims that there is a logical connection.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
OK, understood. But let's just say they lied on 13 of the 20 days, I found it hard to believe that concluding someone is lying because they've lied on 2 or 3 occasions out of a possible 20 is a fallacy (the hasty generalization), but 13 lies out of 20 isn't a fallacy (even though it's not hasty). Also, I posted an answer that I think is close. What do you think of it? Edit: Damn, whenever I type @JishinNoben it disappears.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
4
In the 13 out of 20 case, it depends on what exactly the conclusion is: If the conclusion is "they always lie", that is an invalid (inductive) inference. If the conclusion is "they lie at time 21", you could call it appeal to probability. But it could also mean: "they are likely to lie, the might do so today, do we want to risk relying on them?" and there is no fallacy. Pragmatics should be taken into account when identifying an informal fallacy.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
1
@Jishin Noben. Absolutely correct. Hume is looking approvingly over my shoulder as I write this ;)-. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
I think I found something that comes close:
Appeal to probability (Wikipedia)
An appeal to probability (or appeal to possibility) is the logical fallacy of taking something for granted because it would probably be
the case (or might possibly be the case).
and
An appeal to probability argues that, because something probably will
happen, it is certain to happen.
The fallacy is an informal fallacy.
P1: X is probable.
P2: (Unstated) Anything which is probable, is certain.
C: X is certain.
The fallaciousness of this line of logic should be apparent from the second, unstated premise (P2), which seems and is blatantly false.
Appeal to Probability - Rational Wiki
I was thinking along the lines of appeal to history or something, not sure if such a term exists. I'd still appreciate any more suggestions.
I think answering you own question is fine. This fallacy, I would say, applies to the 13 out of 20 case, but not so much to the boy-wolf and day 21 cases. These are valid inductive inferences.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
"taking something for granted because it would probably be the case" - nope. You're taking something for granted because it has been be the case. If you ignore the boy crying wolf when there is one, you're cheery picking.
– Mazura
yesterday
13
You should note that, as worded in the original question, the question makes the false assumption that it describes a fallacy. There is no fallacy unless you have the "since this is probable, it must be certain" statement, though often people are not implying that, but instead are implying "since this is probable, it is what I believe", which is different.
– Aaron
yesterday
3
That Wikipedia article (as of Jan 2019) is abysmally bad. Please be careful about quoting articles from Wikipedia or other Internet sites. Most of the popular websites that talk about logic are written by people who have never studied logic and have no idea what they are talking about.
– Bumble
yesterday
1
I reverted the wiki status of the answer since these days, we can simply edit answers and you should not shy from being the author of an answer to your own questions.
– Philip Klöcking♦
16 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
All informal fallacies take their force from their similarity to strong arguments. In this case, if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore we have good reason to disbelieve him on Day 20," that is a perfectly good argument (assuming it isn't suppressing other relevant information).
But if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore what he told us on Day 20 must be a lie" then you are overreaching the evidence. The evidence suggests the boy may be lying, it does not entail it, prove it, or establish it. If there is independent support for the Day 20 statement, yet you insist on it being a lie because you heard it from the boy, you are committing the genetic fallacy, also known as the fallacy of origins.
Genetic Fallacy: A genetic fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when a claim is accepted or rejected based on the source of the evidence, rather than on the quality or applicability of the evidence. It is also a line of reasoning in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself. The fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
1
Yes! I think this is it! "based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context."
– Zebrafish
yesterday
2
@Zebrafish Great! :) If you are satisfied that this is the best answer, please accept it with the checkmark.
– Chris Sunami
yesterday
Wow, that Rational Wiki definition is different from Wikipedia's one. The Rational Wiki description talks about accepting an argument based on the its source, whereas Wikipedia describes it as accepting an argument based on "history, origin, or source". The one I'm particularly interested in is history, by that I mean accepting an argument based on what's happened in the past. Now I'm not so sure if this is the best term. Also genetic fallacy seems like a broader category that can include something like the etymological fallacy. I'm just not sure.
– Zebrafish
20 hours ago
@Zebrafish Yes, genetic fallacy is a broader category. Your example is "overreaching the evidence". This answer correctly identified it as such, while also mentioning Genetic Fallacy as being relevant because your example also tangentially implied an instance of it also occurring, alongside the overreach of evidence which forms the central point of your question.
– Matthew Najmon
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In your analysis, there must be some intellectual problem with "disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20." I could split this into these parts:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2) Donald said something to me today, and wants me to believe it in spite of the past 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3) The thing Donald said to me is false because all the other things Donald said were false.
Clearly, 3) is an incorrect conclusion: the thing Donald told me today is either true or false quite independently of the history for the past 19 days. In fact, Donald's intention to deceive me could have switched and he may intend to tell the truth to me today, while he intended to lie before. In addition, Donald may well be mistaken: he may be wrong about whatever it is today, thus rendering the truth/falsity of his words today in opposition to his intention today to deceive or to tell the truth.
But let's suppose that someone has thought this instead:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2') Donald said something to me today, and wants me to take some action upon it in spite of the 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3') I don't feel safe taking any action upon Donald's words today unless another independent person tells me something about the issue, positive or negative.
Corollary to 3'): I am willing to investigate the thing Donald was telling me today, because it shouldn't be too hard to figure out independently if it's true or not.
There is no fallacy with this reasoning, since it is completely reasonable to take action or not, and to assume the risks of action or inaction, based on your best guess of the trustworthiness of Donald's words. On the chance that "there really is a wolf this time", you can protect yourself by spending the extra effort to validate Donald's claim.
If I already spent the effort to investigate Donald's claims on days 1 through 19 and found them to be false, then the action Donald wants me to take today amounts to "see for yourself", and I don't even have to do that. In old-fashioned legal terms the appropriate action is to "censure" Donald, meaning that as far as I'm concerned, his words no longer cause anything.
Seemingly, 19 out of 20 was chosen to match the 95% confidence interval we use in science. But I think that's beside the point: the decision to censure is not scientific at all; it's a human judgment.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
Yes, I'm sorry, another user has made me realize my question isn't clear, because in the first two examples I gave I spoke about not believing the person, not making an argument. Saying you've lied in the past so therefore you are lying now is a fallacy because it's an argument, whereas saying you've lied in the past and so therefore I don't believe you this time isn't a fallacy because it's not an argument, just a belief. Still, I wonder if the disbelief is fallacious thinking in some way. Or an argument made to yourself. Anyway, that's another topic I guess.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
@Zebrafish: I think we can bring both ways together: they correspond to the a) and b) versions of my comment above.
– cbeleites
yesterday
add a comment |
This isn’t an exact fit, but the logic here is similar to the Hot Hand Fallacy. Because something has occurred frequently in the past, it in some way informs likely future events, with the assumption events will continue to transpire in the same way.
It’s not a perfect fit, as the Hot Hand Fallacy specifically concerns streaks of successes making people believe success (specifically) is more likely.
Some times also called the Hot Streak Fallacy.
New contributor
add a comment |
This isn't quite a fallacy, but what you're talking about is likely caused by Apophenia. From the Wikipedia page:
Apophenia (/æpoʊˈfiːniə/) is the tendency to mistakenly perceive connections and meaning between unrelated things. [...]
Apophenia has come to imply a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. [...]
In statistics, apophenia is an example of a Type I error – the identification of false patterns in data. It may be compared with a so-called false positive in other test situations.
In more casual terms, its the human ability to seek out patterns where there may or may not be any. If a man lies to you three days in a row, you may see a pattern and not trust him on the fourth day when he cries wolf again. This is apohpenia at work.
New contributor
Correlation is not causation. I knew a guy who played the Lotto using a list of numbers that hadn't come up recently - which has nothing to do with anything. +1
– Mazura
yesterday
The behavior of humans is not usually random.
– Barmar
yesterday
@Barmar I'm not sure where I said that it was, but if you're referring to the second line in the Wikipedia quote--I don't think the authors of the article are using "Random" to mean the same thing you would over on StackOverflow :)
– scohe001
yesterday
1
Apophenia is things like the Man on the Moon (seeing a face in the random pattern of craters), constellations (seeing animals and objects in the patterns of stars), and the faces of Jesus and Mary in all sorts of objects.
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Also, Wikipedia says "unmotivated seeing of connections [accompanied by] a specific feeling of abnormal meaningfulness". Seeing patterns in human behavior is hardly unmotivated, most people behave pretty consistently.
– Barmar
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
I'll give it a try with probabilities. Most of them guessed out of the blue, so please feel free to correct me if you have data.
I'll tackle the 10 lies out of 13 answers scenario.
I'll assume for now that we know for sure that these 10 are lies (which sounds not that plausible to me - I don't think it's so easy to actually prove a lie and considering that, this sounds extraordinarily patient... But what I'm going to do will mostly hold also with honest mistakes on the side of the witness).
I'll assume a mistakenly false witness statement to happen in roughly 1 % of answers.
This number is somewhat arbitrarily pulled from the range of innocent suspects wrongly identified by eyewitnesses in Mickes, Flowe, Wixted: Receiver Operating Characteristic Analysis of Eyewitness Memory:
Comparing the Diagnostic Accuracy of Simultaneous Versus
Sequential Lineup, Journal of Experimental Psychology: Applied, 361 – 376, 2012 and the corresponding probability to correctly identify the guilty party around 1 in 5 times.We'll also assume that all those answers and questions are independent of each other, and
- that the witness behaviour can be summarized by a single "probability to lie"
This is obviously a vast oversimplification of what happens in real life. However, I think the scenario is still useful to show how much evidence we have and how much we do not have.
To be continued, have to leave for today
add a comment |
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7 Answers
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7 Answers
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This is not a fallacy, just the old problem of induction. A case of hasty generalisation would be to conclude that the witness tends to lie, if you have observed it two times in a row.
I appreciate your answer. Hasty generalization is described as a fallacy both in the fallacy and faulty generalization articles in Wikipedia, as well as in other sources. I'm not sure if you're saying it's not a fallacy. Also, I'm not sure concluding the witness tends to lie is a hasty generalization, I believe the final conclusion that the last testimony was a lie is a hasty generalization. I might be wrong.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
@Zebrafish Hasty generalisation is a fallacy. But if you conclude that on day 21 someone is lying if you have observed him to do so the 20 days before is not fallacious. You cannot know for certain, but that is the problem of induction. It is definitely no logical fallacy, since nobody claims that there is a logical connection.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
OK, understood. But let's just say they lied on 13 of the 20 days, I found it hard to believe that concluding someone is lying because they've lied on 2 or 3 occasions out of a possible 20 is a fallacy (the hasty generalization), but 13 lies out of 20 isn't a fallacy (even though it's not hasty). Also, I posted an answer that I think is close. What do you think of it? Edit: Damn, whenever I type @JishinNoben it disappears.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
4
In the 13 out of 20 case, it depends on what exactly the conclusion is: If the conclusion is "they always lie", that is an invalid (inductive) inference. If the conclusion is "they lie at time 21", you could call it appeal to probability. But it could also mean: "they are likely to lie, the might do so today, do we want to risk relying on them?" and there is no fallacy. Pragmatics should be taken into account when identifying an informal fallacy.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
1
@Jishin Noben. Absolutely correct. Hume is looking approvingly over my shoulder as I write this ;)-. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
This is not a fallacy, just the old problem of induction. A case of hasty generalisation would be to conclude that the witness tends to lie, if you have observed it two times in a row.
I appreciate your answer. Hasty generalization is described as a fallacy both in the fallacy and faulty generalization articles in Wikipedia, as well as in other sources. I'm not sure if you're saying it's not a fallacy. Also, I'm not sure concluding the witness tends to lie is a hasty generalization, I believe the final conclusion that the last testimony was a lie is a hasty generalization. I might be wrong.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
@Zebrafish Hasty generalisation is a fallacy. But if you conclude that on day 21 someone is lying if you have observed him to do so the 20 days before is not fallacious. You cannot know for certain, but that is the problem of induction. It is definitely no logical fallacy, since nobody claims that there is a logical connection.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
OK, understood. But let's just say they lied on 13 of the 20 days, I found it hard to believe that concluding someone is lying because they've lied on 2 or 3 occasions out of a possible 20 is a fallacy (the hasty generalization), but 13 lies out of 20 isn't a fallacy (even though it's not hasty). Also, I posted an answer that I think is close. What do you think of it? Edit: Damn, whenever I type @JishinNoben it disappears.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
4
In the 13 out of 20 case, it depends on what exactly the conclusion is: If the conclusion is "they always lie", that is an invalid (inductive) inference. If the conclusion is "they lie at time 21", you could call it appeal to probability. But it could also mean: "they are likely to lie, the might do so today, do we want to risk relying on them?" and there is no fallacy. Pragmatics should be taken into account when identifying an informal fallacy.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
1
@Jishin Noben. Absolutely correct. Hume is looking approvingly over my shoulder as I write this ;)-. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
This is not a fallacy, just the old problem of induction. A case of hasty generalisation would be to conclude that the witness tends to lie, if you have observed it two times in a row.
This is not a fallacy, just the old problem of induction. A case of hasty generalisation would be to conclude that the witness tends to lie, if you have observed it two times in a row.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Jishin NobenJishin Noben
59719
59719
I appreciate your answer. Hasty generalization is described as a fallacy both in the fallacy and faulty generalization articles in Wikipedia, as well as in other sources. I'm not sure if you're saying it's not a fallacy. Also, I'm not sure concluding the witness tends to lie is a hasty generalization, I believe the final conclusion that the last testimony was a lie is a hasty generalization. I might be wrong.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
@Zebrafish Hasty generalisation is a fallacy. But if you conclude that on day 21 someone is lying if you have observed him to do so the 20 days before is not fallacious. You cannot know for certain, but that is the problem of induction. It is definitely no logical fallacy, since nobody claims that there is a logical connection.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
OK, understood. But let's just say they lied on 13 of the 20 days, I found it hard to believe that concluding someone is lying because they've lied on 2 or 3 occasions out of a possible 20 is a fallacy (the hasty generalization), but 13 lies out of 20 isn't a fallacy (even though it's not hasty). Also, I posted an answer that I think is close. What do you think of it? Edit: Damn, whenever I type @JishinNoben it disappears.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
4
In the 13 out of 20 case, it depends on what exactly the conclusion is: If the conclusion is "they always lie", that is an invalid (inductive) inference. If the conclusion is "they lie at time 21", you could call it appeal to probability. But it could also mean: "they are likely to lie, the might do so today, do we want to risk relying on them?" and there is no fallacy. Pragmatics should be taken into account when identifying an informal fallacy.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
1
@Jishin Noben. Absolutely correct. Hume is looking approvingly over my shoulder as I write this ;)-. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
I appreciate your answer. Hasty generalization is described as a fallacy both in the fallacy and faulty generalization articles in Wikipedia, as well as in other sources. I'm not sure if you're saying it's not a fallacy. Also, I'm not sure concluding the witness tends to lie is a hasty generalization, I believe the final conclusion that the last testimony was a lie is a hasty generalization. I might be wrong.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
@Zebrafish Hasty generalisation is a fallacy. But if you conclude that on day 21 someone is lying if you have observed him to do so the 20 days before is not fallacious. You cannot know for certain, but that is the problem of induction. It is definitely no logical fallacy, since nobody claims that there is a logical connection.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
OK, understood. But let's just say they lied on 13 of the 20 days, I found it hard to believe that concluding someone is lying because they've lied on 2 or 3 occasions out of a possible 20 is a fallacy (the hasty generalization), but 13 lies out of 20 isn't a fallacy (even though it's not hasty). Also, I posted an answer that I think is close. What do you think of it? Edit: Damn, whenever I type @JishinNoben it disappears.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
4
In the 13 out of 20 case, it depends on what exactly the conclusion is: If the conclusion is "they always lie", that is an invalid (inductive) inference. If the conclusion is "they lie at time 21", you could call it appeal to probability. But it could also mean: "they are likely to lie, the might do so today, do we want to risk relying on them?" and there is no fallacy. Pragmatics should be taken into account when identifying an informal fallacy.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
1
@Jishin Noben. Absolutely correct. Hume is looking approvingly over my shoulder as I write this ;)-. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
yesterday
I appreciate your answer. Hasty generalization is described as a fallacy both in the fallacy and faulty generalization articles in Wikipedia, as well as in other sources. I'm not sure if you're saying it's not a fallacy. Also, I'm not sure concluding the witness tends to lie is a hasty generalization, I believe the final conclusion that the last testimony was a lie is a hasty generalization. I might be wrong.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
I appreciate your answer. Hasty generalization is described as a fallacy both in the fallacy and faulty generalization articles in Wikipedia, as well as in other sources. I'm not sure if you're saying it's not a fallacy. Also, I'm not sure concluding the witness tends to lie is a hasty generalization, I believe the final conclusion that the last testimony was a lie is a hasty generalization. I might be wrong.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
10
@Zebrafish Hasty generalisation is a fallacy. But if you conclude that on day 21 someone is lying if you have observed him to do so the 20 days before is not fallacious. You cannot know for certain, but that is the problem of induction. It is definitely no logical fallacy, since nobody claims that there is a logical connection.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
@Zebrafish Hasty generalisation is a fallacy. But if you conclude that on day 21 someone is lying if you have observed him to do so the 20 days before is not fallacious. You cannot know for certain, but that is the problem of induction. It is definitely no logical fallacy, since nobody claims that there is a logical connection.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
OK, understood. But let's just say they lied on 13 of the 20 days, I found it hard to believe that concluding someone is lying because they've lied on 2 or 3 occasions out of a possible 20 is a fallacy (the hasty generalization), but 13 lies out of 20 isn't a fallacy (even though it's not hasty). Also, I posted an answer that I think is close. What do you think of it? Edit: Damn, whenever I type @JishinNoben it disappears.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
OK, understood. But let's just say they lied on 13 of the 20 days, I found it hard to believe that concluding someone is lying because they've lied on 2 or 3 occasions out of a possible 20 is a fallacy (the hasty generalization), but 13 lies out of 20 isn't a fallacy (even though it's not hasty). Also, I posted an answer that I think is close. What do you think of it? Edit: Damn, whenever I type @JishinNoben it disappears.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
4
4
In the 13 out of 20 case, it depends on what exactly the conclusion is: If the conclusion is "they always lie", that is an invalid (inductive) inference. If the conclusion is "they lie at time 21", you could call it appeal to probability. But it could also mean: "they are likely to lie, the might do so today, do we want to risk relying on them?" and there is no fallacy. Pragmatics should be taken into account when identifying an informal fallacy.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
In the 13 out of 20 case, it depends on what exactly the conclusion is: If the conclusion is "they always lie", that is an invalid (inductive) inference. If the conclusion is "they lie at time 21", you could call it appeal to probability. But it could also mean: "they are likely to lie, the might do so today, do we want to risk relying on them?" and there is no fallacy. Pragmatics should be taken into account when identifying an informal fallacy.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
1
1
@Jishin Noben. Absolutely correct. Hume is looking approvingly over my shoulder as I write this ;)-. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
yesterday
@Jishin Noben. Absolutely correct. Hume is looking approvingly over my shoulder as I write this ;)-. Best - Geoffrey
– Geoffrey Thomas♦
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
I think I found something that comes close:
Appeal to probability (Wikipedia)
An appeal to probability (or appeal to possibility) is the logical fallacy of taking something for granted because it would probably be
the case (or might possibly be the case).
and
An appeal to probability argues that, because something probably will
happen, it is certain to happen.
The fallacy is an informal fallacy.
P1: X is probable.
P2: (Unstated) Anything which is probable, is certain.
C: X is certain.
The fallaciousness of this line of logic should be apparent from the second, unstated premise (P2), which seems and is blatantly false.
Appeal to Probability - Rational Wiki
I was thinking along the lines of appeal to history or something, not sure if such a term exists. I'd still appreciate any more suggestions.
I think answering you own question is fine. This fallacy, I would say, applies to the 13 out of 20 case, but not so much to the boy-wolf and day 21 cases. These are valid inductive inferences.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
"taking something for granted because it would probably be the case" - nope. You're taking something for granted because it has been be the case. If you ignore the boy crying wolf when there is one, you're cheery picking.
– Mazura
yesterday
13
You should note that, as worded in the original question, the question makes the false assumption that it describes a fallacy. There is no fallacy unless you have the "since this is probable, it must be certain" statement, though often people are not implying that, but instead are implying "since this is probable, it is what I believe", which is different.
– Aaron
yesterday
3
That Wikipedia article (as of Jan 2019) is abysmally bad. Please be careful about quoting articles from Wikipedia or other Internet sites. Most of the popular websites that talk about logic are written by people who have never studied logic and have no idea what they are talking about.
– Bumble
yesterday
1
I reverted the wiki status of the answer since these days, we can simply edit answers and you should not shy from being the author of an answer to your own questions.
– Philip Klöcking♦
16 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
I think I found something that comes close:
Appeal to probability (Wikipedia)
An appeal to probability (or appeal to possibility) is the logical fallacy of taking something for granted because it would probably be
the case (or might possibly be the case).
and
An appeal to probability argues that, because something probably will
happen, it is certain to happen.
The fallacy is an informal fallacy.
P1: X is probable.
P2: (Unstated) Anything which is probable, is certain.
C: X is certain.
The fallaciousness of this line of logic should be apparent from the second, unstated premise (P2), which seems and is blatantly false.
Appeal to Probability - Rational Wiki
I was thinking along the lines of appeal to history or something, not sure if such a term exists. I'd still appreciate any more suggestions.
I think answering you own question is fine. This fallacy, I would say, applies to the 13 out of 20 case, but not so much to the boy-wolf and day 21 cases. These are valid inductive inferences.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
"taking something for granted because it would probably be the case" - nope. You're taking something for granted because it has been be the case. If you ignore the boy crying wolf when there is one, you're cheery picking.
– Mazura
yesterday
13
You should note that, as worded in the original question, the question makes the false assumption that it describes a fallacy. There is no fallacy unless you have the "since this is probable, it must be certain" statement, though often people are not implying that, but instead are implying "since this is probable, it is what I believe", which is different.
– Aaron
yesterday
3
That Wikipedia article (as of Jan 2019) is abysmally bad. Please be careful about quoting articles from Wikipedia or other Internet sites. Most of the popular websites that talk about logic are written by people who have never studied logic and have no idea what they are talking about.
– Bumble
yesterday
1
I reverted the wiki status of the answer since these days, we can simply edit answers and you should not shy from being the author of an answer to your own questions.
– Philip Klöcking♦
16 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
I think I found something that comes close:
Appeal to probability (Wikipedia)
An appeal to probability (or appeal to possibility) is the logical fallacy of taking something for granted because it would probably be
the case (or might possibly be the case).
and
An appeal to probability argues that, because something probably will
happen, it is certain to happen.
The fallacy is an informal fallacy.
P1: X is probable.
P2: (Unstated) Anything which is probable, is certain.
C: X is certain.
The fallaciousness of this line of logic should be apparent from the second, unstated premise (P2), which seems and is blatantly false.
Appeal to Probability - Rational Wiki
I was thinking along the lines of appeal to history or something, not sure if such a term exists. I'd still appreciate any more suggestions.
I think I found something that comes close:
Appeal to probability (Wikipedia)
An appeal to probability (or appeal to possibility) is the logical fallacy of taking something for granted because it would probably be
the case (or might possibly be the case).
and
An appeal to probability argues that, because something probably will
happen, it is certain to happen.
The fallacy is an informal fallacy.
P1: X is probable.
P2: (Unstated) Anything which is probable, is certain.
C: X is certain.
The fallaciousness of this line of logic should be apparent from the second, unstated premise (P2), which seems and is blatantly false.
Appeal to Probability - Rational Wiki
I was thinking along the lines of appeal to history or something, not sure if such a term exists. I'd still appreciate any more suggestions.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
ZebrafishZebrafish
33619
33619
I think answering you own question is fine. This fallacy, I would say, applies to the 13 out of 20 case, but not so much to the boy-wolf and day 21 cases. These are valid inductive inferences.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
"taking something for granted because it would probably be the case" - nope. You're taking something for granted because it has been be the case. If you ignore the boy crying wolf when there is one, you're cheery picking.
– Mazura
yesterday
13
You should note that, as worded in the original question, the question makes the false assumption that it describes a fallacy. There is no fallacy unless you have the "since this is probable, it must be certain" statement, though often people are not implying that, but instead are implying "since this is probable, it is what I believe", which is different.
– Aaron
yesterday
3
That Wikipedia article (as of Jan 2019) is abysmally bad. Please be careful about quoting articles from Wikipedia or other Internet sites. Most of the popular websites that talk about logic are written by people who have never studied logic and have no idea what they are talking about.
– Bumble
yesterday
1
I reverted the wiki status of the answer since these days, we can simply edit answers and you should not shy from being the author of an answer to your own questions.
– Philip Klöcking♦
16 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
I think answering you own question is fine. This fallacy, I would say, applies to the 13 out of 20 case, but not so much to the boy-wolf and day 21 cases. These are valid inductive inferences.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
"taking something for granted because it would probably be the case" - nope. You're taking something for granted because it has been be the case. If you ignore the boy crying wolf when there is one, you're cheery picking.
– Mazura
yesterday
13
You should note that, as worded in the original question, the question makes the false assumption that it describes a fallacy. There is no fallacy unless you have the "since this is probable, it must be certain" statement, though often people are not implying that, but instead are implying "since this is probable, it is what I believe", which is different.
– Aaron
yesterday
3
That Wikipedia article (as of Jan 2019) is abysmally bad. Please be careful about quoting articles from Wikipedia or other Internet sites. Most of the popular websites that talk about logic are written by people who have never studied logic and have no idea what they are talking about.
– Bumble
yesterday
1
I reverted the wiki status of the answer since these days, we can simply edit answers and you should not shy from being the author of an answer to your own questions.
– Philip Klöcking♦
16 hours ago
I think answering you own question is fine. This fallacy, I would say, applies to the 13 out of 20 case, but not so much to the boy-wolf and day 21 cases. These are valid inductive inferences.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
I think answering you own question is fine. This fallacy, I would say, applies to the 13 out of 20 case, but not so much to the boy-wolf and day 21 cases. These are valid inductive inferences.
– Jishin Noben
yesterday
"taking something for granted because it would probably be the case" - nope. You're taking something for granted because it has been be the case. If you ignore the boy crying wolf when there is one, you're cheery picking.
– Mazura
yesterday
"taking something for granted because it would probably be the case" - nope. You're taking something for granted because it has been be the case. If you ignore the boy crying wolf when there is one, you're cheery picking.
– Mazura
yesterday
13
13
You should note that, as worded in the original question, the question makes the false assumption that it describes a fallacy. There is no fallacy unless you have the "since this is probable, it must be certain" statement, though often people are not implying that, but instead are implying "since this is probable, it is what I believe", which is different.
– Aaron
yesterday
You should note that, as worded in the original question, the question makes the false assumption that it describes a fallacy. There is no fallacy unless you have the "since this is probable, it must be certain" statement, though often people are not implying that, but instead are implying "since this is probable, it is what I believe", which is different.
– Aaron
yesterday
3
3
That Wikipedia article (as of Jan 2019) is abysmally bad. Please be careful about quoting articles from Wikipedia or other Internet sites. Most of the popular websites that talk about logic are written by people who have never studied logic and have no idea what they are talking about.
– Bumble
yesterday
That Wikipedia article (as of Jan 2019) is abysmally bad. Please be careful about quoting articles from Wikipedia or other Internet sites. Most of the popular websites that talk about logic are written by people who have never studied logic and have no idea what they are talking about.
– Bumble
yesterday
1
1
I reverted the wiki status of the answer since these days, we can simply edit answers and you should not shy from being the author of an answer to your own questions.
– Philip Klöcking♦
16 hours ago
I reverted the wiki status of the answer since these days, we can simply edit answers and you should not shy from being the author of an answer to your own questions.
– Philip Klöcking♦
16 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
All informal fallacies take their force from their similarity to strong arguments. In this case, if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore we have good reason to disbelieve him on Day 20," that is a perfectly good argument (assuming it isn't suppressing other relevant information).
But if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore what he told us on Day 20 must be a lie" then you are overreaching the evidence. The evidence suggests the boy may be lying, it does not entail it, prove it, or establish it. If there is independent support for the Day 20 statement, yet you insist on it being a lie because you heard it from the boy, you are committing the genetic fallacy, also known as the fallacy of origins.
Genetic Fallacy: A genetic fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when a claim is accepted or rejected based on the source of the evidence, rather than on the quality or applicability of the evidence. It is also a line of reasoning in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself. The fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
1
Yes! I think this is it! "based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context."
– Zebrafish
yesterday
2
@Zebrafish Great! :) If you are satisfied that this is the best answer, please accept it with the checkmark.
– Chris Sunami
yesterday
Wow, that Rational Wiki definition is different from Wikipedia's one. The Rational Wiki description talks about accepting an argument based on the its source, whereas Wikipedia describes it as accepting an argument based on "history, origin, or source". The one I'm particularly interested in is history, by that I mean accepting an argument based on what's happened in the past. Now I'm not so sure if this is the best term. Also genetic fallacy seems like a broader category that can include something like the etymological fallacy. I'm just not sure.
– Zebrafish
20 hours ago
@Zebrafish Yes, genetic fallacy is a broader category. Your example is "overreaching the evidence". This answer correctly identified it as such, while also mentioning Genetic Fallacy as being relevant because your example also tangentially implied an instance of it also occurring, alongside the overreach of evidence which forms the central point of your question.
– Matthew Najmon
5 hours ago
add a comment |
All informal fallacies take their force from their similarity to strong arguments. In this case, if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore we have good reason to disbelieve him on Day 20," that is a perfectly good argument (assuming it isn't suppressing other relevant information).
But if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore what he told us on Day 20 must be a lie" then you are overreaching the evidence. The evidence suggests the boy may be lying, it does not entail it, prove it, or establish it. If there is independent support for the Day 20 statement, yet you insist on it being a lie because you heard it from the boy, you are committing the genetic fallacy, also known as the fallacy of origins.
Genetic Fallacy: A genetic fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when a claim is accepted or rejected based on the source of the evidence, rather than on the quality or applicability of the evidence. It is also a line of reasoning in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself. The fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
1
Yes! I think this is it! "based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context."
– Zebrafish
yesterday
2
@Zebrafish Great! :) If you are satisfied that this is the best answer, please accept it with the checkmark.
– Chris Sunami
yesterday
Wow, that Rational Wiki definition is different from Wikipedia's one. The Rational Wiki description talks about accepting an argument based on the its source, whereas Wikipedia describes it as accepting an argument based on "history, origin, or source". The one I'm particularly interested in is history, by that I mean accepting an argument based on what's happened in the past. Now I'm not so sure if this is the best term. Also genetic fallacy seems like a broader category that can include something like the etymological fallacy. I'm just not sure.
– Zebrafish
20 hours ago
@Zebrafish Yes, genetic fallacy is a broader category. Your example is "overreaching the evidence". This answer correctly identified it as such, while also mentioning Genetic Fallacy as being relevant because your example also tangentially implied an instance of it also occurring, alongside the overreach of evidence which forms the central point of your question.
– Matthew Najmon
5 hours ago
add a comment |
All informal fallacies take their force from their similarity to strong arguments. In this case, if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore we have good reason to disbelieve him on Day 20," that is a perfectly good argument (assuming it isn't suppressing other relevant information).
But if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore what he told us on Day 20 must be a lie" then you are overreaching the evidence. The evidence suggests the boy may be lying, it does not entail it, prove it, or establish it. If there is independent support for the Day 20 statement, yet you insist on it being a lie because you heard it from the boy, you are committing the genetic fallacy, also known as the fallacy of origins.
Genetic Fallacy: A genetic fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when a claim is accepted or rejected based on the source of the evidence, rather than on the quality or applicability of the evidence. It is also a line of reasoning in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself. The fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
All informal fallacies take their force from their similarity to strong arguments. In this case, if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore we have good reason to disbelieve him on Day 20," that is a perfectly good argument (assuming it isn't suppressing other relevant information).
But if you say "This boy lied 19 days in a row, therefore what he told us on Day 20 must be a lie" then you are overreaching the evidence. The evidence suggests the boy may be lying, it does not entail it, prove it, or establish it. If there is independent support for the Day 20 statement, yet you insist on it being a lie because you heard it from the boy, you are committing the genetic fallacy, also known as the fallacy of origins.
Genetic Fallacy: A genetic fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when a claim is accepted or rejected based on the source of the evidence, rather than on the quality or applicability of the evidence. It is also a line of reasoning in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself. The fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Chris SunamiChris Sunami
20.3k12863
20.3k12863
1
Yes! I think this is it! "based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context."
– Zebrafish
yesterday
2
@Zebrafish Great! :) If you are satisfied that this is the best answer, please accept it with the checkmark.
– Chris Sunami
yesterday
Wow, that Rational Wiki definition is different from Wikipedia's one. The Rational Wiki description talks about accepting an argument based on the its source, whereas Wikipedia describes it as accepting an argument based on "history, origin, or source". The one I'm particularly interested in is history, by that I mean accepting an argument based on what's happened in the past. Now I'm not so sure if this is the best term. Also genetic fallacy seems like a broader category that can include something like the etymological fallacy. I'm just not sure.
– Zebrafish
20 hours ago
@Zebrafish Yes, genetic fallacy is a broader category. Your example is "overreaching the evidence". This answer correctly identified it as such, while also mentioning Genetic Fallacy as being relevant because your example also tangentially implied an instance of it also occurring, alongside the overreach of evidence which forms the central point of your question.
– Matthew Najmon
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Yes! I think this is it! "based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context."
– Zebrafish
yesterday
2
@Zebrafish Great! :) If you are satisfied that this is the best answer, please accept it with the checkmark.
– Chris Sunami
yesterday
Wow, that Rational Wiki definition is different from Wikipedia's one. The Rational Wiki description talks about accepting an argument based on the its source, whereas Wikipedia describes it as accepting an argument based on "history, origin, or source". The one I'm particularly interested in is history, by that I mean accepting an argument based on what's happened in the past. Now I'm not so sure if this is the best term. Also genetic fallacy seems like a broader category that can include something like the etymological fallacy. I'm just not sure.
– Zebrafish
20 hours ago
@Zebrafish Yes, genetic fallacy is a broader category. Your example is "overreaching the evidence". This answer correctly identified it as such, while also mentioning Genetic Fallacy as being relevant because your example also tangentially implied an instance of it also occurring, alongside the overreach of evidence which forms the central point of your question.
– Matthew Najmon
5 hours ago
1
1
Yes! I think this is it! "based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context."
– Zebrafish
yesterday
Yes! I think this is it! "based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context."
– Zebrafish
yesterday
2
2
@Zebrafish Great! :) If you are satisfied that this is the best answer, please accept it with the checkmark.
– Chris Sunami
yesterday
@Zebrafish Great! :) If you are satisfied that this is the best answer, please accept it with the checkmark.
– Chris Sunami
yesterday
Wow, that Rational Wiki definition is different from Wikipedia's one. The Rational Wiki description talks about accepting an argument based on the its source, whereas Wikipedia describes it as accepting an argument based on "history, origin, or source". The one I'm particularly interested in is history, by that I mean accepting an argument based on what's happened in the past. Now I'm not so sure if this is the best term. Also genetic fallacy seems like a broader category that can include something like the etymological fallacy. I'm just not sure.
– Zebrafish
20 hours ago
Wow, that Rational Wiki definition is different from Wikipedia's one. The Rational Wiki description talks about accepting an argument based on the its source, whereas Wikipedia describes it as accepting an argument based on "history, origin, or source". The one I'm particularly interested in is history, by that I mean accepting an argument based on what's happened in the past. Now I'm not so sure if this is the best term. Also genetic fallacy seems like a broader category that can include something like the etymological fallacy. I'm just not sure.
– Zebrafish
20 hours ago
@Zebrafish Yes, genetic fallacy is a broader category. Your example is "overreaching the evidence". This answer correctly identified it as such, while also mentioning Genetic Fallacy as being relevant because your example also tangentially implied an instance of it also occurring, alongside the overreach of evidence which forms the central point of your question.
– Matthew Najmon
5 hours ago
@Zebrafish Yes, genetic fallacy is a broader category. Your example is "overreaching the evidence". This answer correctly identified it as such, while also mentioning Genetic Fallacy as being relevant because your example also tangentially implied an instance of it also occurring, alongside the overreach of evidence which forms the central point of your question.
– Matthew Najmon
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In your analysis, there must be some intellectual problem with "disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20." I could split this into these parts:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2) Donald said something to me today, and wants me to believe it in spite of the past 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3) The thing Donald said to me is false because all the other things Donald said were false.
Clearly, 3) is an incorrect conclusion: the thing Donald told me today is either true or false quite independently of the history for the past 19 days. In fact, Donald's intention to deceive me could have switched and he may intend to tell the truth to me today, while he intended to lie before. In addition, Donald may well be mistaken: he may be wrong about whatever it is today, thus rendering the truth/falsity of his words today in opposition to his intention today to deceive or to tell the truth.
But let's suppose that someone has thought this instead:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2') Donald said something to me today, and wants me to take some action upon it in spite of the 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3') I don't feel safe taking any action upon Donald's words today unless another independent person tells me something about the issue, positive or negative.
Corollary to 3'): I am willing to investigate the thing Donald was telling me today, because it shouldn't be too hard to figure out independently if it's true or not.
There is no fallacy with this reasoning, since it is completely reasonable to take action or not, and to assume the risks of action or inaction, based on your best guess of the trustworthiness of Donald's words. On the chance that "there really is a wolf this time", you can protect yourself by spending the extra effort to validate Donald's claim.
If I already spent the effort to investigate Donald's claims on days 1 through 19 and found them to be false, then the action Donald wants me to take today amounts to "see for yourself", and I don't even have to do that. In old-fashioned legal terms the appropriate action is to "censure" Donald, meaning that as far as I'm concerned, his words no longer cause anything.
Seemingly, 19 out of 20 was chosen to match the 95% confidence interval we use in science. But I think that's beside the point: the decision to censure is not scientific at all; it's a human judgment.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
Yes, I'm sorry, another user has made me realize my question isn't clear, because in the first two examples I gave I spoke about not believing the person, not making an argument. Saying you've lied in the past so therefore you are lying now is a fallacy because it's an argument, whereas saying you've lied in the past and so therefore I don't believe you this time isn't a fallacy because it's not an argument, just a belief. Still, I wonder if the disbelief is fallacious thinking in some way. Or an argument made to yourself. Anyway, that's another topic I guess.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
@Zebrafish: I think we can bring both ways together: they correspond to the a) and b) versions of my comment above.
– cbeleites
yesterday
add a comment |
In your analysis, there must be some intellectual problem with "disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20." I could split this into these parts:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2) Donald said something to me today, and wants me to believe it in spite of the past 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3) The thing Donald said to me is false because all the other things Donald said were false.
Clearly, 3) is an incorrect conclusion: the thing Donald told me today is either true or false quite independently of the history for the past 19 days. In fact, Donald's intention to deceive me could have switched and he may intend to tell the truth to me today, while he intended to lie before. In addition, Donald may well be mistaken: he may be wrong about whatever it is today, thus rendering the truth/falsity of his words today in opposition to his intention today to deceive or to tell the truth.
But let's suppose that someone has thought this instead:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2') Donald said something to me today, and wants me to take some action upon it in spite of the 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3') I don't feel safe taking any action upon Donald's words today unless another independent person tells me something about the issue, positive or negative.
Corollary to 3'): I am willing to investigate the thing Donald was telling me today, because it shouldn't be too hard to figure out independently if it's true or not.
There is no fallacy with this reasoning, since it is completely reasonable to take action or not, and to assume the risks of action or inaction, based on your best guess of the trustworthiness of Donald's words. On the chance that "there really is a wolf this time", you can protect yourself by spending the extra effort to validate Donald's claim.
If I already spent the effort to investigate Donald's claims on days 1 through 19 and found them to be false, then the action Donald wants me to take today amounts to "see for yourself", and I don't even have to do that. In old-fashioned legal terms the appropriate action is to "censure" Donald, meaning that as far as I'm concerned, his words no longer cause anything.
Seemingly, 19 out of 20 was chosen to match the 95% confidence interval we use in science. But I think that's beside the point: the decision to censure is not scientific at all; it's a human judgment.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
Yes, I'm sorry, another user has made me realize my question isn't clear, because in the first two examples I gave I spoke about not believing the person, not making an argument. Saying you've lied in the past so therefore you are lying now is a fallacy because it's an argument, whereas saying you've lied in the past and so therefore I don't believe you this time isn't a fallacy because it's not an argument, just a belief. Still, I wonder if the disbelief is fallacious thinking in some way. Or an argument made to yourself. Anyway, that's another topic I guess.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
@Zebrafish: I think we can bring both ways together: they correspond to the a) and b) versions of my comment above.
– cbeleites
yesterday
add a comment |
In your analysis, there must be some intellectual problem with "disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20." I could split this into these parts:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2) Donald said something to me today, and wants me to believe it in spite of the past 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3) The thing Donald said to me is false because all the other things Donald said were false.
Clearly, 3) is an incorrect conclusion: the thing Donald told me today is either true or false quite independently of the history for the past 19 days. In fact, Donald's intention to deceive me could have switched and he may intend to tell the truth to me today, while he intended to lie before. In addition, Donald may well be mistaken: he may be wrong about whatever it is today, thus rendering the truth/falsity of his words today in opposition to his intention today to deceive or to tell the truth.
But let's suppose that someone has thought this instead:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2') Donald said something to me today, and wants me to take some action upon it in spite of the 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3') I don't feel safe taking any action upon Donald's words today unless another independent person tells me something about the issue, positive or negative.
Corollary to 3'): I am willing to investigate the thing Donald was telling me today, because it shouldn't be too hard to figure out independently if it's true or not.
There is no fallacy with this reasoning, since it is completely reasonable to take action or not, and to assume the risks of action or inaction, based on your best guess of the trustworthiness of Donald's words. On the chance that "there really is a wolf this time", you can protect yourself by spending the extra effort to validate Donald's claim.
If I already spent the effort to investigate Donald's claims on days 1 through 19 and found them to be false, then the action Donald wants me to take today amounts to "see for yourself", and I don't even have to do that. In old-fashioned legal terms the appropriate action is to "censure" Donald, meaning that as far as I'm concerned, his words no longer cause anything.
In your analysis, there must be some intellectual problem with "disbelieving someone on Day 20 because they have lied every day previous to Day 20." I could split this into these parts:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2) Donald said something to me today, and wants me to believe it in spite of the past 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3) The thing Donald said to me is false because all the other things Donald said were false.
Clearly, 3) is an incorrect conclusion: the thing Donald told me today is either true or false quite independently of the history for the past 19 days. In fact, Donald's intention to deceive me could have switched and he may intend to tell the truth to me today, while he intended to lie before. In addition, Donald may well be mistaken: he may be wrong about whatever it is today, thus rendering the truth/falsity of his words today in opposition to his intention today to deceive or to tell the truth.
But let's suppose that someone has thought this instead:
1) Donald lied to me each day for 19 days straight up to yesterday.
2') Donald said something to me today, and wants me to take some action upon it in spite of the 19 days of lies (which he acknowledges).
3') I don't feel safe taking any action upon Donald's words today unless another independent person tells me something about the issue, positive or negative.
Corollary to 3'): I am willing to investigate the thing Donald was telling me today, because it shouldn't be too hard to figure out independently if it's true or not.
There is no fallacy with this reasoning, since it is completely reasonable to take action or not, and to assume the risks of action or inaction, based on your best guess of the trustworthiness of Donald's words. On the chance that "there really is a wolf this time", you can protect yourself by spending the extra effort to validate Donald's claim.
If I already spent the effort to investigate Donald's claims on days 1 through 19 and found them to be false, then the action Donald wants me to take today amounts to "see for yourself", and I don't even have to do that. In old-fashioned legal terms the appropriate action is to "censure" Donald, meaning that as far as I'm concerned, his words no longer cause anything.
answered yesterday
elliot svenssonelliot svensson
3,664124
3,664124
Seemingly, 19 out of 20 was chosen to match the 95% confidence interval we use in science. But I think that's beside the point: the decision to censure is not scientific at all; it's a human judgment.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
Yes, I'm sorry, another user has made me realize my question isn't clear, because in the first two examples I gave I spoke about not believing the person, not making an argument. Saying you've lied in the past so therefore you are lying now is a fallacy because it's an argument, whereas saying you've lied in the past and so therefore I don't believe you this time isn't a fallacy because it's not an argument, just a belief. Still, I wonder if the disbelief is fallacious thinking in some way. Or an argument made to yourself. Anyway, that's another topic I guess.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
@Zebrafish: I think we can bring both ways together: they correspond to the a) and b) versions of my comment above.
– cbeleites
yesterday
add a comment |
Seemingly, 19 out of 20 was chosen to match the 95% confidence interval we use in science. But I think that's beside the point: the decision to censure is not scientific at all; it's a human judgment.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
Yes, I'm sorry, another user has made me realize my question isn't clear, because in the first two examples I gave I spoke about not believing the person, not making an argument. Saying you've lied in the past so therefore you are lying now is a fallacy because it's an argument, whereas saying you've lied in the past and so therefore I don't believe you this time isn't a fallacy because it's not an argument, just a belief. Still, I wonder if the disbelief is fallacious thinking in some way. Or an argument made to yourself. Anyway, that's another topic I guess.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
@Zebrafish: I think we can bring both ways together: they correspond to the a) and b) versions of my comment above.
– cbeleites
yesterday
Seemingly, 19 out of 20 was chosen to match the 95% confidence interval we use in science. But I think that's beside the point: the decision to censure is not scientific at all; it's a human judgment.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
Seemingly, 19 out of 20 was chosen to match the 95% confidence interval we use in science. But I think that's beside the point: the decision to censure is not scientific at all; it's a human judgment.
– elliot svensson
yesterday
Yes, I'm sorry, another user has made me realize my question isn't clear, because in the first two examples I gave I spoke about not believing the person, not making an argument. Saying you've lied in the past so therefore you are lying now is a fallacy because it's an argument, whereas saying you've lied in the past and so therefore I don't believe you this time isn't a fallacy because it's not an argument, just a belief. Still, I wonder if the disbelief is fallacious thinking in some way. Or an argument made to yourself. Anyway, that's another topic I guess.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
Yes, I'm sorry, another user has made me realize my question isn't clear, because in the first two examples I gave I spoke about not believing the person, not making an argument. Saying you've lied in the past so therefore you are lying now is a fallacy because it's an argument, whereas saying you've lied in the past and so therefore I don't believe you this time isn't a fallacy because it's not an argument, just a belief. Still, I wonder if the disbelief is fallacious thinking in some way. Or an argument made to yourself. Anyway, that's another topic I guess.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
@Zebrafish: I think we can bring both ways together: they correspond to the a) and b) versions of my comment above.
– cbeleites
yesterday
@Zebrafish: I think we can bring both ways together: they correspond to the a) and b) versions of my comment above.
– cbeleites
yesterday
add a comment |
This isn’t an exact fit, but the logic here is similar to the Hot Hand Fallacy. Because something has occurred frequently in the past, it in some way informs likely future events, with the assumption events will continue to transpire in the same way.
It’s not a perfect fit, as the Hot Hand Fallacy specifically concerns streaks of successes making people believe success (specifically) is more likely.
Some times also called the Hot Streak Fallacy.
New contributor
add a comment |
This isn’t an exact fit, but the logic here is similar to the Hot Hand Fallacy. Because something has occurred frequently in the past, it in some way informs likely future events, with the assumption events will continue to transpire in the same way.
It’s not a perfect fit, as the Hot Hand Fallacy specifically concerns streaks of successes making people believe success (specifically) is more likely.
Some times also called the Hot Streak Fallacy.
New contributor
add a comment |
This isn’t an exact fit, but the logic here is similar to the Hot Hand Fallacy. Because something has occurred frequently in the past, it in some way informs likely future events, with the assumption events will continue to transpire in the same way.
It’s not a perfect fit, as the Hot Hand Fallacy specifically concerns streaks of successes making people believe success (specifically) is more likely.
Some times also called the Hot Streak Fallacy.
New contributor
This isn’t an exact fit, but the logic here is similar to the Hot Hand Fallacy. Because something has occurred frequently in the past, it in some way informs likely future events, with the assumption events will continue to transpire in the same way.
It’s not a perfect fit, as the Hot Hand Fallacy specifically concerns streaks of successes making people believe success (specifically) is more likely.
Some times also called the Hot Streak Fallacy.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
Joe HealeyJoe Healey
1212
1212
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
This isn't quite a fallacy, but what you're talking about is likely caused by Apophenia. From the Wikipedia page:
Apophenia (/æpoʊˈfiːniə/) is the tendency to mistakenly perceive connections and meaning between unrelated things. [...]
Apophenia has come to imply a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. [...]
In statistics, apophenia is an example of a Type I error – the identification of false patterns in data. It may be compared with a so-called false positive in other test situations.
In more casual terms, its the human ability to seek out patterns where there may or may not be any. If a man lies to you three days in a row, you may see a pattern and not trust him on the fourth day when he cries wolf again. This is apohpenia at work.
New contributor
Correlation is not causation. I knew a guy who played the Lotto using a list of numbers that hadn't come up recently - which has nothing to do with anything. +1
– Mazura
yesterday
The behavior of humans is not usually random.
– Barmar
yesterday
@Barmar I'm not sure where I said that it was, but if you're referring to the second line in the Wikipedia quote--I don't think the authors of the article are using "Random" to mean the same thing you would over on StackOverflow :)
– scohe001
yesterday
1
Apophenia is things like the Man on the Moon (seeing a face in the random pattern of craters), constellations (seeing animals and objects in the patterns of stars), and the faces of Jesus and Mary in all sorts of objects.
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Also, Wikipedia says "unmotivated seeing of connections [accompanied by] a specific feeling of abnormal meaningfulness". Seeing patterns in human behavior is hardly unmotivated, most people behave pretty consistently.
– Barmar
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
This isn't quite a fallacy, but what you're talking about is likely caused by Apophenia. From the Wikipedia page:
Apophenia (/æpoʊˈfiːniə/) is the tendency to mistakenly perceive connections and meaning between unrelated things. [...]
Apophenia has come to imply a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. [...]
In statistics, apophenia is an example of a Type I error – the identification of false patterns in data. It may be compared with a so-called false positive in other test situations.
In more casual terms, its the human ability to seek out patterns where there may or may not be any. If a man lies to you three days in a row, you may see a pattern and not trust him on the fourth day when he cries wolf again. This is apohpenia at work.
New contributor
Correlation is not causation. I knew a guy who played the Lotto using a list of numbers that hadn't come up recently - which has nothing to do with anything. +1
– Mazura
yesterday
The behavior of humans is not usually random.
– Barmar
yesterday
@Barmar I'm not sure where I said that it was, but if you're referring to the second line in the Wikipedia quote--I don't think the authors of the article are using "Random" to mean the same thing you would over on StackOverflow :)
– scohe001
yesterday
1
Apophenia is things like the Man on the Moon (seeing a face in the random pattern of craters), constellations (seeing animals and objects in the patterns of stars), and the faces of Jesus and Mary in all sorts of objects.
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Also, Wikipedia says "unmotivated seeing of connections [accompanied by] a specific feeling of abnormal meaningfulness". Seeing patterns in human behavior is hardly unmotivated, most people behave pretty consistently.
– Barmar
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
This isn't quite a fallacy, but what you're talking about is likely caused by Apophenia. From the Wikipedia page:
Apophenia (/æpoʊˈfiːniə/) is the tendency to mistakenly perceive connections and meaning between unrelated things. [...]
Apophenia has come to imply a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. [...]
In statistics, apophenia is an example of a Type I error – the identification of false patterns in data. It may be compared with a so-called false positive in other test situations.
In more casual terms, its the human ability to seek out patterns where there may or may not be any. If a man lies to you three days in a row, you may see a pattern and not trust him on the fourth day when he cries wolf again. This is apohpenia at work.
New contributor
This isn't quite a fallacy, but what you're talking about is likely caused by Apophenia. From the Wikipedia page:
Apophenia (/æpoʊˈfiːniə/) is the tendency to mistakenly perceive connections and meaning between unrelated things. [...]
Apophenia has come to imply a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. [...]
In statistics, apophenia is an example of a Type I error – the identification of false patterns in data. It may be compared with a so-called false positive in other test situations.
In more casual terms, its the human ability to seek out patterns where there may or may not be any. If a man lies to you three days in a row, you may see a pattern and not trust him on the fourth day when he cries wolf again. This is apohpenia at work.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
scohe001scohe001
1192
1192
New contributor
New contributor
Correlation is not causation. I knew a guy who played the Lotto using a list of numbers that hadn't come up recently - which has nothing to do with anything. +1
– Mazura
yesterday
The behavior of humans is not usually random.
– Barmar
yesterday
@Barmar I'm not sure where I said that it was, but if you're referring to the second line in the Wikipedia quote--I don't think the authors of the article are using "Random" to mean the same thing you would over on StackOverflow :)
– scohe001
yesterday
1
Apophenia is things like the Man on the Moon (seeing a face in the random pattern of craters), constellations (seeing animals and objects in the patterns of stars), and the faces of Jesus and Mary in all sorts of objects.
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Also, Wikipedia says "unmotivated seeing of connections [accompanied by] a specific feeling of abnormal meaningfulness". Seeing patterns in human behavior is hardly unmotivated, most people behave pretty consistently.
– Barmar
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
Correlation is not causation. I knew a guy who played the Lotto using a list of numbers that hadn't come up recently - which has nothing to do with anything. +1
– Mazura
yesterday
The behavior of humans is not usually random.
– Barmar
yesterday
@Barmar I'm not sure where I said that it was, but if you're referring to the second line in the Wikipedia quote--I don't think the authors of the article are using "Random" to mean the same thing you would over on StackOverflow :)
– scohe001
yesterday
1
Apophenia is things like the Man on the Moon (seeing a face in the random pattern of craters), constellations (seeing animals and objects in the patterns of stars), and the faces of Jesus and Mary in all sorts of objects.
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Also, Wikipedia says "unmotivated seeing of connections [accompanied by] a specific feeling of abnormal meaningfulness". Seeing patterns in human behavior is hardly unmotivated, most people behave pretty consistently.
– Barmar
yesterday
Correlation is not causation. I knew a guy who played the Lotto using a list of numbers that hadn't come up recently - which has nothing to do with anything. +1
– Mazura
yesterday
Correlation is not causation. I knew a guy who played the Lotto using a list of numbers that hadn't come up recently - which has nothing to do with anything. +1
– Mazura
yesterday
The behavior of humans is not usually random.
– Barmar
yesterday
The behavior of humans is not usually random.
– Barmar
yesterday
@Barmar I'm not sure where I said that it was, but if you're referring to the second line in the Wikipedia quote--I don't think the authors of the article are using "Random" to mean the same thing you would over on StackOverflow :)
– scohe001
yesterday
@Barmar I'm not sure where I said that it was, but if you're referring to the second line in the Wikipedia quote--I don't think the authors of the article are using "Random" to mean the same thing you would over on StackOverflow :)
– scohe001
yesterday
1
1
Apophenia is things like the Man on the Moon (seeing a face in the random pattern of craters), constellations (seeing animals and objects in the patterns of stars), and the faces of Jesus and Mary in all sorts of objects.
– Barmar
yesterday
Apophenia is things like the Man on the Moon (seeing a face in the random pattern of craters), constellations (seeing animals and objects in the patterns of stars), and the faces of Jesus and Mary in all sorts of objects.
– Barmar
yesterday
1
1
Also, Wikipedia says "unmotivated seeing of connections [accompanied by] a specific feeling of abnormal meaningfulness". Seeing patterns in human behavior is hardly unmotivated, most people behave pretty consistently.
– Barmar
yesterday
Also, Wikipedia says "unmotivated seeing of connections [accompanied by] a specific feeling of abnormal meaningfulness". Seeing patterns in human behavior is hardly unmotivated, most people behave pretty consistently.
– Barmar
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
I'll give it a try with probabilities. Most of them guessed out of the blue, so please feel free to correct me if you have data.
I'll tackle the 10 lies out of 13 answers scenario.
I'll assume for now that we know for sure that these 10 are lies (which sounds not that plausible to me - I don't think it's so easy to actually prove a lie and considering that, this sounds extraordinarily patient... But what I'm going to do will mostly hold also with honest mistakes on the side of the witness).
I'll assume a mistakenly false witness statement to happen in roughly 1 % of answers.
This number is somewhat arbitrarily pulled from the range of innocent suspects wrongly identified by eyewitnesses in Mickes, Flowe, Wixted: Receiver Operating Characteristic Analysis of Eyewitness Memory:
Comparing the Diagnostic Accuracy of Simultaneous Versus
Sequential Lineup, Journal of Experimental Psychology: Applied, 361 – 376, 2012 and the corresponding probability to correctly identify the guilty party around 1 in 5 times.We'll also assume that all those answers and questions are independent of each other, and
- that the witness behaviour can be summarized by a single "probability to lie"
This is obviously a vast oversimplification of what happens in real life. However, I think the scenario is still useful to show how much evidence we have and how much we do not have.
To be continued, have to leave for today
add a comment |
I'll give it a try with probabilities. Most of them guessed out of the blue, so please feel free to correct me if you have data.
I'll tackle the 10 lies out of 13 answers scenario.
I'll assume for now that we know for sure that these 10 are lies (which sounds not that plausible to me - I don't think it's so easy to actually prove a lie and considering that, this sounds extraordinarily patient... But what I'm going to do will mostly hold also with honest mistakes on the side of the witness).
I'll assume a mistakenly false witness statement to happen in roughly 1 % of answers.
This number is somewhat arbitrarily pulled from the range of innocent suspects wrongly identified by eyewitnesses in Mickes, Flowe, Wixted: Receiver Operating Characteristic Analysis of Eyewitness Memory:
Comparing the Diagnostic Accuracy of Simultaneous Versus
Sequential Lineup, Journal of Experimental Psychology: Applied, 361 – 376, 2012 and the corresponding probability to correctly identify the guilty party around 1 in 5 times.We'll also assume that all those answers and questions are independent of each other, and
- that the witness behaviour can be summarized by a single "probability to lie"
This is obviously a vast oversimplification of what happens in real life. However, I think the scenario is still useful to show how much evidence we have and how much we do not have.
To be continued, have to leave for today
add a comment |
I'll give it a try with probabilities. Most of them guessed out of the blue, so please feel free to correct me if you have data.
I'll tackle the 10 lies out of 13 answers scenario.
I'll assume for now that we know for sure that these 10 are lies (which sounds not that plausible to me - I don't think it's so easy to actually prove a lie and considering that, this sounds extraordinarily patient... But what I'm going to do will mostly hold also with honest mistakes on the side of the witness).
I'll assume a mistakenly false witness statement to happen in roughly 1 % of answers.
This number is somewhat arbitrarily pulled from the range of innocent suspects wrongly identified by eyewitnesses in Mickes, Flowe, Wixted: Receiver Operating Characteristic Analysis of Eyewitness Memory:
Comparing the Diagnostic Accuracy of Simultaneous Versus
Sequential Lineup, Journal of Experimental Psychology: Applied, 361 – 376, 2012 and the corresponding probability to correctly identify the guilty party around 1 in 5 times.We'll also assume that all those answers and questions are independent of each other, and
- that the witness behaviour can be summarized by a single "probability to lie"
This is obviously a vast oversimplification of what happens in real life. However, I think the scenario is still useful to show how much evidence we have and how much we do not have.
To be continued, have to leave for today
I'll give it a try with probabilities. Most of them guessed out of the blue, so please feel free to correct me if you have data.
I'll tackle the 10 lies out of 13 answers scenario.
I'll assume for now that we know for sure that these 10 are lies (which sounds not that plausible to me - I don't think it's so easy to actually prove a lie and considering that, this sounds extraordinarily patient... But what I'm going to do will mostly hold also with honest mistakes on the side of the witness).
I'll assume a mistakenly false witness statement to happen in roughly 1 % of answers.
This number is somewhat arbitrarily pulled from the range of innocent suspects wrongly identified by eyewitnesses in Mickes, Flowe, Wixted: Receiver Operating Characteristic Analysis of Eyewitness Memory:
Comparing the Diagnostic Accuracy of Simultaneous Versus
Sequential Lineup, Journal of Experimental Psychology: Applied, 361 – 376, 2012 and the corresponding probability to correctly identify the guilty party around 1 in 5 times.We'll also assume that all those answers and questions are independent of each other, and
- that the witness behaviour can be summarized by a single "probability to lie"
This is obviously a vast oversimplification of what happens in real life. However, I think the scenario is still useful to show how much evidence we have and how much we do not have.
To be continued, have to leave for today
answered yesterday
cbeleitescbeleites
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If you decide to accept your community answer, you might want to edit your question to take into account the comment I left on the answer, about how the question here, as worded, does not necessarily present any fallacy.
– Aaron
yesterday
@Aaron I'm sorry, I don't understand. If I say he's lying about that wolf because the past 19 times he's lied about it, isn't that a clear fallacy? Same as the witness has lied 10 times to 13 questions, the witness must be lying now.
– Zebrafish
yesterday
10
No, that is not necessarily a fallacy. If there is the assumption (even if unspoken) that "He lied 100% of the last 19 times" means that it is impossible for the 20th statement to be true, then there is a fallacy. But it is common for "he's lying" to imply an "(I believe based on the probability that) he's lying", rather than "he's lying (because it is impossible for him to tell the truth)", which is not a fallacy. Belief does not necessarily imply an assertion that the belief is infallible, and with reasonable people the assumption is that beliefs are fallible.
– Aaron
yesterday
Are you only asking about patterns of human behavior, or any pattern? Like the fallacy of assuming that the Sun will rise tomorrow, simply because it has only happened every day for the past 5 billion years?
– Barmar
yesterday
1
Tongue-in-cheek, I call this "the principle of complete intimidation". (Basically it is mathematical induction gone wrong. Or perhaps better, gone less mathematical.)
– Marnix Klooster
yesterday