The meaning of causative 'have'












0
















(1) He had a specialist examine his son.



(2) He had his son examined by a specialist.




About this pair, The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 1236) says:




we have equivalence between (1) and (2)




This I think means that we have equivalence in meaning between them.



But as for an apparently similar pair, Paul M. Postal says in his paper "On Raising" (page 320):




Thus, on one reading at least, the following are not semantically equivalent:



(86) a. Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness.



b. Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin.




I don't see any reason for treating the examples in CGEL and 'On Raising' differently, so why is it that CGEL says the passivation doesn't change the meaning whereas Postal says it does change the meaning "on one reading at least"?



EDIT



In order to make it clear what Postal means by "on one reading", here's a summary of what Postal says in pages 318-320:




Right before the cited portion, Postal mentions "a dualistic analysis" found with "allow, permit, and order". By the "dualistic analysis" I think he means that these verbs of permission can have two different meanings, depending on whether to consider them to be 'raising verbs' or not.




So, I think Postal's "on one reading" refers to reading (86) as not having a 'raising' construction, because passivation wouldn't change the meaning in a 'raising' construction.



Apparently, Postal thinks that Postal's (86) can be construed as not involving a 'raising' construction, whereas CGEL thinks that CGEL's (1)/(2) can only be construed as involving a 'raising' construction.



Having said that, I think a more specific question is this:



Is there any reason for this different treatment?
Or is either Postal or CGEL mistaken?










share|improve this question

























  • I'm pretty sure he meant that there was one possible sense of (86b) that was not causative, but rather interpretable like Tom had his tires slashed last night. That sense is all but impossible with (a), so they would be different. But there is also the more usual causative sense of (b), and on that interpretation they're identical. OK?

    – John Lawler
    Mar 20 at 3:07











  • @JohnLawler If you read pages 318-320 of Postal, I think you'd agree that Postal meant something other than what you're "pretty sure that he meant". Please see my edit.

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 3:45











  • Unless the alternate reading is "Tom had the witness [that was] interrogated by Melvin", I don't see any difference.

    – AmI
    Mar 20 at 5:13











  • @AmI I doubt (86b) could ever mean your alternative reading. I think that the alternative reading intended by Postal might be "Tom got the witness to be interrogated by Melvin".

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 5:24











  • but that means the same as "Tom got Melvin to interrogate the witness."

    – AmI
    Mar 20 at 5:31
















0
















(1) He had a specialist examine his son.



(2) He had his son examined by a specialist.




About this pair, The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 1236) says:




we have equivalence between (1) and (2)




This I think means that we have equivalence in meaning between them.



But as for an apparently similar pair, Paul M. Postal says in his paper "On Raising" (page 320):




Thus, on one reading at least, the following are not semantically equivalent:



(86) a. Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness.



b. Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin.




I don't see any reason for treating the examples in CGEL and 'On Raising' differently, so why is it that CGEL says the passivation doesn't change the meaning whereas Postal says it does change the meaning "on one reading at least"?



EDIT



In order to make it clear what Postal means by "on one reading", here's a summary of what Postal says in pages 318-320:




Right before the cited portion, Postal mentions "a dualistic analysis" found with "allow, permit, and order". By the "dualistic analysis" I think he means that these verbs of permission can have two different meanings, depending on whether to consider them to be 'raising verbs' or not.




So, I think Postal's "on one reading" refers to reading (86) as not having a 'raising' construction, because passivation wouldn't change the meaning in a 'raising' construction.



Apparently, Postal thinks that Postal's (86) can be construed as not involving a 'raising' construction, whereas CGEL thinks that CGEL's (1)/(2) can only be construed as involving a 'raising' construction.



Having said that, I think a more specific question is this:



Is there any reason for this different treatment?
Or is either Postal or CGEL mistaken?










share|improve this question

























  • I'm pretty sure he meant that there was one possible sense of (86b) that was not causative, but rather interpretable like Tom had his tires slashed last night. That sense is all but impossible with (a), so they would be different. But there is also the more usual causative sense of (b), and on that interpretation they're identical. OK?

    – John Lawler
    Mar 20 at 3:07











  • @JohnLawler If you read pages 318-320 of Postal, I think you'd agree that Postal meant something other than what you're "pretty sure that he meant". Please see my edit.

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 3:45











  • Unless the alternate reading is "Tom had the witness [that was] interrogated by Melvin", I don't see any difference.

    – AmI
    Mar 20 at 5:13











  • @AmI I doubt (86b) could ever mean your alternative reading. I think that the alternative reading intended by Postal might be "Tom got the witness to be interrogated by Melvin".

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 5:24











  • but that means the same as "Tom got Melvin to interrogate the witness."

    – AmI
    Mar 20 at 5:31














0












0








0









(1) He had a specialist examine his son.



(2) He had his son examined by a specialist.




About this pair, The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 1236) says:




we have equivalence between (1) and (2)




This I think means that we have equivalence in meaning between them.



But as for an apparently similar pair, Paul M. Postal says in his paper "On Raising" (page 320):




Thus, on one reading at least, the following are not semantically equivalent:



(86) a. Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness.



b. Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin.




I don't see any reason for treating the examples in CGEL and 'On Raising' differently, so why is it that CGEL says the passivation doesn't change the meaning whereas Postal says it does change the meaning "on one reading at least"?



EDIT



In order to make it clear what Postal means by "on one reading", here's a summary of what Postal says in pages 318-320:




Right before the cited portion, Postal mentions "a dualistic analysis" found with "allow, permit, and order". By the "dualistic analysis" I think he means that these verbs of permission can have two different meanings, depending on whether to consider them to be 'raising verbs' or not.




So, I think Postal's "on one reading" refers to reading (86) as not having a 'raising' construction, because passivation wouldn't change the meaning in a 'raising' construction.



Apparently, Postal thinks that Postal's (86) can be construed as not involving a 'raising' construction, whereas CGEL thinks that CGEL's (1)/(2) can only be construed as involving a 'raising' construction.



Having said that, I think a more specific question is this:



Is there any reason for this different treatment?
Or is either Postal or CGEL mistaken?










share|improve this question

















(1) He had a specialist examine his son.



(2) He had his son examined by a specialist.




About this pair, The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (Page 1236) says:




we have equivalence between (1) and (2)




This I think means that we have equivalence in meaning between them.



But as for an apparently similar pair, Paul M. Postal says in his paper "On Raising" (page 320):




Thus, on one reading at least, the following are not semantically equivalent:



(86) a. Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness.



b. Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin.




I don't see any reason for treating the examples in CGEL and 'On Raising' differently, so why is it that CGEL says the passivation doesn't change the meaning whereas Postal says it does change the meaning "on one reading at least"?



EDIT



In order to make it clear what Postal means by "on one reading", here's a summary of what Postal says in pages 318-320:




Right before the cited portion, Postal mentions "a dualistic analysis" found with "allow, permit, and order". By the "dualistic analysis" I think he means that these verbs of permission can have two different meanings, depending on whether to consider them to be 'raising verbs' or not.




So, I think Postal's "on one reading" refers to reading (86) as not having a 'raising' construction, because passivation wouldn't change the meaning in a 'raising' construction.



Apparently, Postal thinks that Postal's (86) can be construed as not involving a 'raising' construction, whereas CGEL thinks that CGEL's (1)/(2) can only be construed as involving a 'raising' construction.



Having said that, I think a more specific question is this:



Is there any reason for this different treatment?
Or is either Postal or CGEL mistaken?







passive-voice causative-verbs






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Mar 20 at 3:51







JK2

















asked Mar 20 at 2:19









JK2JK2

39311752




39311752













  • I'm pretty sure he meant that there was one possible sense of (86b) that was not causative, but rather interpretable like Tom had his tires slashed last night. That sense is all but impossible with (a), so they would be different. But there is also the more usual causative sense of (b), and on that interpretation they're identical. OK?

    – John Lawler
    Mar 20 at 3:07











  • @JohnLawler If you read pages 318-320 of Postal, I think you'd agree that Postal meant something other than what you're "pretty sure that he meant". Please see my edit.

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 3:45











  • Unless the alternate reading is "Tom had the witness [that was] interrogated by Melvin", I don't see any difference.

    – AmI
    Mar 20 at 5:13











  • @AmI I doubt (86b) could ever mean your alternative reading. I think that the alternative reading intended by Postal might be "Tom got the witness to be interrogated by Melvin".

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 5:24











  • but that means the same as "Tom got Melvin to interrogate the witness."

    – AmI
    Mar 20 at 5:31



















  • I'm pretty sure he meant that there was one possible sense of (86b) that was not causative, but rather interpretable like Tom had his tires slashed last night. That sense is all but impossible with (a), so they would be different. But there is also the more usual causative sense of (b), and on that interpretation they're identical. OK?

    – John Lawler
    Mar 20 at 3:07











  • @JohnLawler If you read pages 318-320 of Postal, I think you'd agree that Postal meant something other than what you're "pretty sure that he meant". Please see my edit.

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 3:45











  • Unless the alternate reading is "Tom had the witness [that was] interrogated by Melvin", I don't see any difference.

    – AmI
    Mar 20 at 5:13











  • @AmI I doubt (86b) could ever mean your alternative reading. I think that the alternative reading intended by Postal might be "Tom got the witness to be interrogated by Melvin".

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 5:24











  • but that means the same as "Tom got Melvin to interrogate the witness."

    – AmI
    Mar 20 at 5:31

















I'm pretty sure he meant that there was one possible sense of (86b) that was not causative, but rather interpretable like Tom had his tires slashed last night. That sense is all but impossible with (a), so they would be different. But there is also the more usual causative sense of (b), and on that interpretation they're identical. OK?

– John Lawler
Mar 20 at 3:07





I'm pretty sure he meant that there was one possible sense of (86b) that was not causative, but rather interpretable like Tom had his tires slashed last night. That sense is all but impossible with (a), so they would be different. But there is also the more usual causative sense of (b), and on that interpretation they're identical. OK?

– John Lawler
Mar 20 at 3:07













@JohnLawler If you read pages 318-320 of Postal, I think you'd agree that Postal meant something other than what you're "pretty sure that he meant". Please see my edit.

– JK2
Mar 20 at 3:45





@JohnLawler If you read pages 318-320 of Postal, I think you'd agree that Postal meant something other than what you're "pretty sure that he meant". Please see my edit.

– JK2
Mar 20 at 3:45













Unless the alternate reading is "Tom had the witness [that was] interrogated by Melvin", I don't see any difference.

– AmI
Mar 20 at 5:13





Unless the alternate reading is "Tom had the witness [that was] interrogated by Melvin", I don't see any difference.

– AmI
Mar 20 at 5:13













@AmI I doubt (86b) could ever mean your alternative reading. I think that the alternative reading intended by Postal might be "Tom got the witness to be interrogated by Melvin".

– JK2
Mar 20 at 5:24





@AmI I doubt (86b) could ever mean your alternative reading. I think that the alternative reading intended by Postal might be "Tom got the witness to be interrogated by Melvin".

– JK2
Mar 20 at 5:24













but that means the same as "Tom got Melvin to interrogate the witness."

– AmI
Mar 20 at 5:31





but that means the same as "Tom got Melvin to interrogate the witness."

– AmI
Mar 20 at 5:31










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















0














I’m a bit loath to offer an answer when there are so many erudite comments, but I’m interested in the topic and can’t comment yet, so here goes.



I think the explanation is semantic - besides the non-causative sense illustrated by Bill had his tires slashed last night, there seem to be two causative senses of had, roughly (1) to exercise authority over someone such that they use their agency in a particular way (2) to bring about some situation through your own agency. I think Post’s first example invites sense (1), while his second invites sense (2), as do both of Huddleston & Palmer’s – so naturally Post judges his sentences to be different, while Huddleston & Palmer judge theirs to be the same.



The scenario Post’s first sentence conjures up for me is that Tom is some sort of lead investigator and has authority over Melvin, which he exercises by getting Melvin – as opposed to someone else on the team – to conduct the interrogation. That’s sense (1).



Huddleston & Palmer’s first sentence is different in that we have no reason to suppose the father has any authority over the specialist. For one thing, that’s not how the world works – while investigators generally have superiors who get to tell them what to do, there isn’t usually a comparable relationship between specialists and the fathers of their patients. For another thing, we are invited to relate the father to the son rather than the specialist, both for the obvious reason and because the reference is to a specialist and not a specific person. All of that points to sense (2).



I think Post’s second sentence is also an example of sense (2). An interrogation is not normally something we undergo voluntarily, so if Tom has power to force the witness into it, it’s a coercive power. At the point where you are coercing someone into something, their agency is no longer in play, which means it can only be sense (2). In any case, I read H&P as saying that had never has sense (1) in the passive construction, and as I say below I think they're right.



On that basis, Post’s two examples are using had in two different senses (of course, all that is necessary to explain his statement is that they can plausibly be read as using it in two different senses).



As for Huddleston & Palmer’s second example, it’s quite plausible that the father would have authority over the son, so either sense could be in play, and maybe it comes down to whether you think that the passive construction is compatible with sense (1) – or maybe it’s enough to point out that H&P don’t. At least, that’s how I read p. 1236, where they say he got his son to be examined by a specialist is not an alternant of he got his son examined by a specialist, and has no equivalent using have. As far as I can see, the first of those sentences expresses the same thing as my sense (1), and what H&P are saying is that there is no passive sentence with have that does the same job. If that’s how they see it, they’re bound to read both of their sentences in sense (2), and judge them to be the same.



For what it’s worth, I think H&P are right – you can come up with active sentences with have and got that are equivalent and express sense (1) – e.g. he had his son tail the specialist / he got his son to tail the specialist - but I’ve drawn a blank as far as passive sentences are concerned. Is it possible that the raising construction requires more arguments than are licensed by this use of have?






share|improve this answer
























  • If a son was examined by a specialist, who do you think normally would have paid the specialist? Maybe his father? I don't know about the father having any authority over the specialist, but he can easily be the one who asked the specialist to examine his son. And I think that's enough to convey sense (1).

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 16:08











  • Well if you redefine sense (1) in that way, I think it's better to look at it syntactically. I'm not totally clear whether you're saying both sentences mean he got a specialist to examine his son, or only the first one. I can't read the second one in that sense, and the idea that the whole event constitutes a single argument seems to explain this very neatly - we then end up with the to bring about a situation directly meaning by virtue of the syntax.

    – Minty
    Mar 21 at 7:56











  • How would you explain the meaning of 'on one reading at least' in Postal's book? I think this wording suggests that Postal's (86a) and (86b) are "semantically equivalent" on another reading. And in all likelihood on this "another reading" CGEL seems to be basing its analysis that (1) and (2) are semantically equivalent.

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • More importantly, if you take time to read through pages 318-320 of Postal, you will realize that your answer is not in line with what Postal is trying to say regarding the "one reading" of (86).

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • @JK2 Well, the two basic readings of Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness are a) [Tom caused Melvin (Melvin interrogates witness)] and b) [Tom caused (Melvin interrogates witness)] - that’s clear from 318. Without delving further into the book it’s not clear to me whether Postal thinks Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin can be read in sense a), but clearly it can be read in sense b).

    – Minty
    yesterday











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "97"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fenglish.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f490491%2fthe-meaning-of-causative-have%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









0














I’m a bit loath to offer an answer when there are so many erudite comments, but I’m interested in the topic and can’t comment yet, so here goes.



I think the explanation is semantic - besides the non-causative sense illustrated by Bill had his tires slashed last night, there seem to be two causative senses of had, roughly (1) to exercise authority over someone such that they use their agency in a particular way (2) to bring about some situation through your own agency. I think Post’s first example invites sense (1), while his second invites sense (2), as do both of Huddleston & Palmer’s – so naturally Post judges his sentences to be different, while Huddleston & Palmer judge theirs to be the same.



The scenario Post’s first sentence conjures up for me is that Tom is some sort of lead investigator and has authority over Melvin, which he exercises by getting Melvin – as opposed to someone else on the team – to conduct the interrogation. That’s sense (1).



Huddleston & Palmer’s first sentence is different in that we have no reason to suppose the father has any authority over the specialist. For one thing, that’s not how the world works – while investigators generally have superiors who get to tell them what to do, there isn’t usually a comparable relationship between specialists and the fathers of their patients. For another thing, we are invited to relate the father to the son rather than the specialist, both for the obvious reason and because the reference is to a specialist and not a specific person. All of that points to sense (2).



I think Post’s second sentence is also an example of sense (2). An interrogation is not normally something we undergo voluntarily, so if Tom has power to force the witness into it, it’s a coercive power. At the point where you are coercing someone into something, their agency is no longer in play, which means it can only be sense (2). In any case, I read H&P as saying that had never has sense (1) in the passive construction, and as I say below I think they're right.



On that basis, Post’s two examples are using had in two different senses (of course, all that is necessary to explain his statement is that they can plausibly be read as using it in two different senses).



As for Huddleston & Palmer’s second example, it’s quite plausible that the father would have authority over the son, so either sense could be in play, and maybe it comes down to whether you think that the passive construction is compatible with sense (1) – or maybe it’s enough to point out that H&P don’t. At least, that’s how I read p. 1236, where they say he got his son to be examined by a specialist is not an alternant of he got his son examined by a specialist, and has no equivalent using have. As far as I can see, the first of those sentences expresses the same thing as my sense (1), and what H&P are saying is that there is no passive sentence with have that does the same job. If that’s how they see it, they’re bound to read both of their sentences in sense (2), and judge them to be the same.



For what it’s worth, I think H&P are right – you can come up with active sentences with have and got that are equivalent and express sense (1) – e.g. he had his son tail the specialist / he got his son to tail the specialist - but I’ve drawn a blank as far as passive sentences are concerned. Is it possible that the raising construction requires more arguments than are licensed by this use of have?






share|improve this answer
























  • If a son was examined by a specialist, who do you think normally would have paid the specialist? Maybe his father? I don't know about the father having any authority over the specialist, but he can easily be the one who asked the specialist to examine his son. And I think that's enough to convey sense (1).

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 16:08











  • Well if you redefine sense (1) in that way, I think it's better to look at it syntactically. I'm not totally clear whether you're saying both sentences mean he got a specialist to examine his son, or only the first one. I can't read the second one in that sense, and the idea that the whole event constitutes a single argument seems to explain this very neatly - we then end up with the to bring about a situation directly meaning by virtue of the syntax.

    – Minty
    Mar 21 at 7:56











  • How would you explain the meaning of 'on one reading at least' in Postal's book? I think this wording suggests that Postal's (86a) and (86b) are "semantically equivalent" on another reading. And in all likelihood on this "another reading" CGEL seems to be basing its analysis that (1) and (2) are semantically equivalent.

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • More importantly, if you take time to read through pages 318-320 of Postal, you will realize that your answer is not in line with what Postal is trying to say regarding the "one reading" of (86).

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • @JK2 Well, the two basic readings of Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness are a) [Tom caused Melvin (Melvin interrogates witness)] and b) [Tom caused (Melvin interrogates witness)] - that’s clear from 318. Without delving further into the book it’s not clear to me whether Postal thinks Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin can be read in sense a), but clearly it can be read in sense b).

    – Minty
    yesterday
















0














I’m a bit loath to offer an answer when there are so many erudite comments, but I’m interested in the topic and can’t comment yet, so here goes.



I think the explanation is semantic - besides the non-causative sense illustrated by Bill had his tires slashed last night, there seem to be two causative senses of had, roughly (1) to exercise authority over someone such that they use their agency in a particular way (2) to bring about some situation through your own agency. I think Post’s first example invites sense (1), while his second invites sense (2), as do both of Huddleston & Palmer’s – so naturally Post judges his sentences to be different, while Huddleston & Palmer judge theirs to be the same.



The scenario Post’s first sentence conjures up for me is that Tom is some sort of lead investigator and has authority over Melvin, which he exercises by getting Melvin – as opposed to someone else on the team – to conduct the interrogation. That’s sense (1).



Huddleston & Palmer’s first sentence is different in that we have no reason to suppose the father has any authority over the specialist. For one thing, that’s not how the world works – while investigators generally have superiors who get to tell them what to do, there isn’t usually a comparable relationship between specialists and the fathers of their patients. For another thing, we are invited to relate the father to the son rather than the specialist, both for the obvious reason and because the reference is to a specialist and not a specific person. All of that points to sense (2).



I think Post’s second sentence is also an example of sense (2). An interrogation is not normally something we undergo voluntarily, so if Tom has power to force the witness into it, it’s a coercive power. At the point where you are coercing someone into something, their agency is no longer in play, which means it can only be sense (2). In any case, I read H&P as saying that had never has sense (1) in the passive construction, and as I say below I think they're right.



On that basis, Post’s two examples are using had in two different senses (of course, all that is necessary to explain his statement is that they can plausibly be read as using it in two different senses).



As for Huddleston & Palmer’s second example, it’s quite plausible that the father would have authority over the son, so either sense could be in play, and maybe it comes down to whether you think that the passive construction is compatible with sense (1) – or maybe it’s enough to point out that H&P don’t. At least, that’s how I read p. 1236, where they say he got his son to be examined by a specialist is not an alternant of he got his son examined by a specialist, and has no equivalent using have. As far as I can see, the first of those sentences expresses the same thing as my sense (1), and what H&P are saying is that there is no passive sentence with have that does the same job. If that’s how they see it, they’re bound to read both of their sentences in sense (2), and judge them to be the same.



For what it’s worth, I think H&P are right – you can come up with active sentences with have and got that are equivalent and express sense (1) – e.g. he had his son tail the specialist / he got his son to tail the specialist - but I’ve drawn a blank as far as passive sentences are concerned. Is it possible that the raising construction requires more arguments than are licensed by this use of have?






share|improve this answer
























  • If a son was examined by a specialist, who do you think normally would have paid the specialist? Maybe his father? I don't know about the father having any authority over the specialist, but he can easily be the one who asked the specialist to examine his son. And I think that's enough to convey sense (1).

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 16:08











  • Well if you redefine sense (1) in that way, I think it's better to look at it syntactically. I'm not totally clear whether you're saying both sentences mean he got a specialist to examine his son, or only the first one. I can't read the second one in that sense, and the idea that the whole event constitutes a single argument seems to explain this very neatly - we then end up with the to bring about a situation directly meaning by virtue of the syntax.

    – Minty
    Mar 21 at 7:56











  • How would you explain the meaning of 'on one reading at least' in Postal's book? I think this wording suggests that Postal's (86a) and (86b) are "semantically equivalent" on another reading. And in all likelihood on this "another reading" CGEL seems to be basing its analysis that (1) and (2) are semantically equivalent.

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • More importantly, if you take time to read through pages 318-320 of Postal, you will realize that your answer is not in line with what Postal is trying to say regarding the "one reading" of (86).

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • @JK2 Well, the two basic readings of Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness are a) [Tom caused Melvin (Melvin interrogates witness)] and b) [Tom caused (Melvin interrogates witness)] - that’s clear from 318. Without delving further into the book it’s not clear to me whether Postal thinks Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin can be read in sense a), but clearly it can be read in sense b).

    – Minty
    yesterday














0












0








0







I’m a bit loath to offer an answer when there are so many erudite comments, but I’m interested in the topic and can’t comment yet, so here goes.



I think the explanation is semantic - besides the non-causative sense illustrated by Bill had his tires slashed last night, there seem to be two causative senses of had, roughly (1) to exercise authority over someone such that they use their agency in a particular way (2) to bring about some situation through your own agency. I think Post’s first example invites sense (1), while his second invites sense (2), as do both of Huddleston & Palmer’s – so naturally Post judges his sentences to be different, while Huddleston & Palmer judge theirs to be the same.



The scenario Post’s first sentence conjures up for me is that Tom is some sort of lead investigator and has authority over Melvin, which he exercises by getting Melvin – as opposed to someone else on the team – to conduct the interrogation. That’s sense (1).



Huddleston & Palmer’s first sentence is different in that we have no reason to suppose the father has any authority over the specialist. For one thing, that’s not how the world works – while investigators generally have superiors who get to tell them what to do, there isn’t usually a comparable relationship between specialists and the fathers of their patients. For another thing, we are invited to relate the father to the son rather than the specialist, both for the obvious reason and because the reference is to a specialist and not a specific person. All of that points to sense (2).



I think Post’s second sentence is also an example of sense (2). An interrogation is not normally something we undergo voluntarily, so if Tom has power to force the witness into it, it’s a coercive power. At the point where you are coercing someone into something, their agency is no longer in play, which means it can only be sense (2). In any case, I read H&P as saying that had never has sense (1) in the passive construction, and as I say below I think they're right.



On that basis, Post’s two examples are using had in two different senses (of course, all that is necessary to explain his statement is that they can plausibly be read as using it in two different senses).



As for Huddleston & Palmer’s second example, it’s quite plausible that the father would have authority over the son, so either sense could be in play, and maybe it comes down to whether you think that the passive construction is compatible with sense (1) – or maybe it’s enough to point out that H&P don’t. At least, that’s how I read p. 1236, where they say he got his son to be examined by a specialist is not an alternant of he got his son examined by a specialist, and has no equivalent using have. As far as I can see, the first of those sentences expresses the same thing as my sense (1), and what H&P are saying is that there is no passive sentence with have that does the same job. If that’s how they see it, they’re bound to read both of their sentences in sense (2), and judge them to be the same.



For what it’s worth, I think H&P are right – you can come up with active sentences with have and got that are equivalent and express sense (1) – e.g. he had his son tail the specialist / he got his son to tail the specialist - but I’ve drawn a blank as far as passive sentences are concerned. Is it possible that the raising construction requires more arguments than are licensed by this use of have?






share|improve this answer













I’m a bit loath to offer an answer when there are so many erudite comments, but I’m interested in the topic and can’t comment yet, so here goes.



I think the explanation is semantic - besides the non-causative sense illustrated by Bill had his tires slashed last night, there seem to be two causative senses of had, roughly (1) to exercise authority over someone such that they use their agency in a particular way (2) to bring about some situation through your own agency. I think Post’s first example invites sense (1), while his second invites sense (2), as do both of Huddleston & Palmer’s – so naturally Post judges his sentences to be different, while Huddleston & Palmer judge theirs to be the same.



The scenario Post’s first sentence conjures up for me is that Tom is some sort of lead investigator and has authority over Melvin, which he exercises by getting Melvin – as opposed to someone else on the team – to conduct the interrogation. That’s sense (1).



Huddleston & Palmer’s first sentence is different in that we have no reason to suppose the father has any authority over the specialist. For one thing, that’s not how the world works – while investigators generally have superiors who get to tell them what to do, there isn’t usually a comparable relationship between specialists and the fathers of their patients. For another thing, we are invited to relate the father to the son rather than the specialist, both for the obvious reason and because the reference is to a specialist and not a specific person. All of that points to sense (2).



I think Post’s second sentence is also an example of sense (2). An interrogation is not normally something we undergo voluntarily, so if Tom has power to force the witness into it, it’s a coercive power. At the point where you are coercing someone into something, their agency is no longer in play, which means it can only be sense (2). In any case, I read H&P as saying that had never has sense (1) in the passive construction, and as I say below I think they're right.



On that basis, Post’s two examples are using had in two different senses (of course, all that is necessary to explain his statement is that they can plausibly be read as using it in two different senses).



As for Huddleston & Palmer’s second example, it’s quite plausible that the father would have authority over the son, so either sense could be in play, and maybe it comes down to whether you think that the passive construction is compatible with sense (1) – or maybe it’s enough to point out that H&P don’t. At least, that’s how I read p. 1236, where they say he got his son to be examined by a specialist is not an alternant of he got his son examined by a specialist, and has no equivalent using have. As far as I can see, the first of those sentences expresses the same thing as my sense (1), and what H&P are saying is that there is no passive sentence with have that does the same job. If that’s how they see it, they’re bound to read both of their sentences in sense (2), and judge them to be the same.



For what it’s worth, I think H&P are right – you can come up with active sentences with have and got that are equivalent and express sense (1) – e.g. he had his son tail the specialist / he got his son to tail the specialist - but I’ve drawn a blank as far as passive sentences are concerned. Is it possible that the raising construction requires more arguments than are licensed by this use of have?







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Mar 20 at 15:28









MintyMinty

3716




3716













  • If a son was examined by a specialist, who do you think normally would have paid the specialist? Maybe his father? I don't know about the father having any authority over the specialist, but he can easily be the one who asked the specialist to examine his son. And I think that's enough to convey sense (1).

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 16:08











  • Well if you redefine sense (1) in that way, I think it's better to look at it syntactically. I'm not totally clear whether you're saying both sentences mean he got a specialist to examine his son, or only the first one. I can't read the second one in that sense, and the idea that the whole event constitutes a single argument seems to explain this very neatly - we then end up with the to bring about a situation directly meaning by virtue of the syntax.

    – Minty
    Mar 21 at 7:56











  • How would you explain the meaning of 'on one reading at least' in Postal's book? I think this wording suggests that Postal's (86a) and (86b) are "semantically equivalent" on another reading. And in all likelihood on this "another reading" CGEL seems to be basing its analysis that (1) and (2) are semantically equivalent.

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • More importantly, if you take time to read through pages 318-320 of Postal, you will realize that your answer is not in line with what Postal is trying to say regarding the "one reading" of (86).

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • @JK2 Well, the two basic readings of Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness are a) [Tom caused Melvin (Melvin interrogates witness)] and b) [Tom caused (Melvin interrogates witness)] - that’s clear from 318. Without delving further into the book it’s not clear to me whether Postal thinks Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin can be read in sense a), but clearly it can be read in sense b).

    – Minty
    yesterday



















  • If a son was examined by a specialist, who do you think normally would have paid the specialist? Maybe his father? I don't know about the father having any authority over the specialist, but he can easily be the one who asked the specialist to examine his son. And I think that's enough to convey sense (1).

    – JK2
    Mar 20 at 16:08











  • Well if you redefine sense (1) in that way, I think it's better to look at it syntactically. I'm not totally clear whether you're saying both sentences mean he got a specialist to examine his son, or only the first one. I can't read the second one in that sense, and the idea that the whole event constitutes a single argument seems to explain this very neatly - we then end up with the to bring about a situation directly meaning by virtue of the syntax.

    – Minty
    Mar 21 at 7:56











  • How would you explain the meaning of 'on one reading at least' in Postal's book? I think this wording suggests that Postal's (86a) and (86b) are "semantically equivalent" on another reading. And in all likelihood on this "another reading" CGEL seems to be basing its analysis that (1) and (2) are semantically equivalent.

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • More importantly, if you take time to read through pages 318-320 of Postal, you will realize that your answer is not in line with what Postal is trying to say regarding the "one reading" of (86).

    – JK2
    2 days ago











  • @JK2 Well, the two basic readings of Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness are a) [Tom caused Melvin (Melvin interrogates witness)] and b) [Tom caused (Melvin interrogates witness)] - that’s clear from 318. Without delving further into the book it’s not clear to me whether Postal thinks Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin can be read in sense a), but clearly it can be read in sense b).

    – Minty
    yesterday

















If a son was examined by a specialist, who do you think normally would have paid the specialist? Maybe his father? I don't know about the father having any authority over the specialist, but he can easily be the one who asked the specialist to examine his son. And I think that's enough to convey sense (1).

– JK2
Mar 20 at 16:08





If a son was examined by a specialist, who do you think normally would have paid the specialist? Maybe his father? I don't know about the father having any authority over the specialist, but he can easily be the one who asked the specialist to examine his son. And I think that's enough to convey sense (1).

– JK2
Mar 20 at 16:08













Well if you redefine sense (1) in that way, I think it's better to look at it syntactically. I'm not totally clear whether you're saying both sentences mean he got a specialist to examine his son, or only the first one. I can't read the second one in that sense, and the idea that the whole event constitutes a single argument seems to explain this very neatly - we then end up with the to bring about a situation directly meaning by virtue of the syntax.

– Minty
Mar 21 at 7:56





Well if you redefine sense (1) in that way, I think it's better to look at it syntactically. I'm not totally clear whether you're saying both sentences mean he got a specialist to examine his son, or only the first one. I can't read the second one in that sense, and the idea that the whole event constitutes a single argument seems to explain this very neatly - we then end up with the to bring about a situation directly meaning by virtue of the syntax.

– Minty
Mar 21 at 7:56













How would you explain the meaning of 'on one reading at least' in Postal's book? I think this wording suggests that Postal's (86a) and (86b) are "semantically equivalent" on another reading. And in all likelihood on this "another reading" CGEL seems to be basing its analysis that (1) and (2) are semantically equivalent.

– JK2
2 days ago





How would you explain the meaning of 'on one reading at least' in Postal's book? I think this wording suggests that Postal's (86a) and (86b) are "semantically equivalent" on another reading. And in all likelihood on this "another reading" CGEL seems to be basing its analysis that (1) and (2) are semantically equivalent.

– JK2
2 days ago













More importantly, if you take time to read through pages 318-320 of Postal, you will realize that your answer is not in line with what Postal is trying to say regarding the "one reading" of (86).

– JK2
2 days ago





More importantly, if you take time to read through pages 318-320 of Postal, you will realize that your answer is not in line with what Postal is trying to say regarding the "one reading" of (86).

– JK2
2 days ago













@JK2 Well, the two basic readings of Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness are a) [Tom caused Melvin (Melvin interrogates witness)] and b) [Tom caused (Melvin interrogates witness)] - that’s clear from 318. Without delving further into the book it’s not clear to me whether Postal thinks Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin can be read in sense a), but clearly it can be read in sense b).

– Minty
yesterday





@JK2 Well, the two basic readings of Tom had Melvin interrogate the witness are a) [Tom caused Melvin (Melvin interrogates witness)] and b) [Tom caused (Melvin interrogates witness)] - that’s clear from 318. Without delving further into the book it’s not clear to me whether Postal thinks Tom had the witness interrogated by Melvin can be read in sense a), but clearly it can be read in sense b).

– Minty
yesterday


















draft saved

draft discarded




















































Thanks for contributing an answer to English Language & Usage Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fenglish.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f490491%2fthe-meaning-of-causative-have%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

If I really need a card on my start hand, how many mulligans make sense? [duplicate]

Alcedinidae

Can an atomic nucleus contain both particles and antiparticles? [duplicate]