Counting the ways to form 4 different teams












6












$begingroup$


We have 40 players and we need to form 4 teams. For each team is necessary to indicate explicitly 6 players and 4 reserves. How many ways can teams be formed?



My attempt: first we can start to calculate in how many ways we can choose 6 players and 4 reserves. Since a distinction is made between players and reserves, I think we should consider it in the calculation (in the sense that, otherwise, it would have been simply 11 players). I think that we can calculate this number by multiplicate $binom{40}{6}$ ways to choose the players and $binom{34}{4}$ ways to choose the reserves. Now, the multiplication produces a very large number and makes me believe that I'm wrong (because then I need to calculate in how many ways we can assign one of the combinations to a team). Am I wrong? Is this a correct reasoning?










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$endgroup$

















    6












    $begingroup$


    We have 40 players and we need to form 4 teams. For each team is necessary to indicate explicitly 6 players and 4 reserves. How many ways can teams be formed?



    My attempt: first we can start to calculate in how many ways we can choose 6 players and 4 reserves. Since a distinction is made between players and reserves, I think we should consider it in the calculation (in the sense that, otherwise, it would have been simply 11 players). I think that we can calculate this number by multiplicate $binom{40}{6}$ ways to choose the players and $binom{34}{4}$ ways to choose the reserves. Now, the multiplication produces a very large number and makes me believe that I'm wrong (because then I need to calculate in how many ways we can assign one of the combinations to a team). Am I wrong? Is this a correct reasoning?










    share|cite|improve this question









    $endgroup$















      6












      6








      6





      $begingroup$


      We have 40 players and we need to form 4 teams. For each team is necessary to indicate explicitly 6 players and 4 reserves. How many ways can teams be formed?



      My attempt: first we can start to calculate in how many ways we can choose 6 players and 4 reserves. Since a distinction is made between players and reserves, I think we should consider it in the calculation (in the sense that, otherwise, it would have been simply 11 players). I think that we can calculate this number by multiplicate $binom{40}{6}$ ways to choose the players and $binom{34}{4}$ ways to choose the reserves. Now, the multiplication produces a very large number and makes me believe that I'm wrong (because then I need to calculate in how many ways we can assign one of the combinations to a team). Am I wrong? Is this a correct reasoning?










      share|cite|improve this question









      $endgroup$




      We have 40 players and we need to form 4 teams. For each team is necessary to indicate explicitly 6 players and 4 reserves. How many ways can teams be formed?



      My attempt: first we can start to calculate in how many ways we can choose 6 players and 4 reserves. Since a distinction is made between players and reserves, I think we should consider it in the calculation (in the sense that, otherwise, it would have been simply 11 players). I think that we can calculate this number by multiplicate $binom{40}{6}$ ways to choose the players and $binom{34}{4}$ ways to choose the reserves. Now, the multiplication produces a very large number and makes me believe that I'm wrong (because then I need to calculate in how many ways we can assign one of the combinations to a team). Am I wrong? Is this a correct reasoning?







      combinatorics






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      asked 2 days ago









      PCNFPCNF

      1027




      1027






















          4 Answers
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          active

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          5












          $begingroup$

          You're on the right track.



          The number of ways to pick Team 1 is equal to $binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4$. After that, the number of ways to pick out Team 2 is $binom{30}6cdot binom{24}4$. And so on.



          Ultimately, the number of ways to pick out the full $4$ teams is
          $$
          binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4cdotbinom{30}6cdotbinom{24}4cdotbinom{20}6cdotbinom{14}4cdotbinom{10}6cdotbinom{4}4\
          = frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^4}
          $$

          (Also known as the multinomial coefficient $binom{40}{6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4}$.)



          However, we don't care which team is Team 1 and which team is Team 4. We just care which four teams are picked. Since the same four teams can be picked out in $4!$ ways, the total number of different team compositions is
          $$
          frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^5}
          $$






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            5












            $begingroup$

            I would do it a little different. First split 40 players in to groups of 10 players, that we can do on $$a= {1over 4!} cdot {40choose 10}cdot {30choose 10}cdot {20choose 10}cdot {10choose 10}$$
            ways.



            Now in each group choose 4 reserve players, so we can do that on $b={10choose 4}^4$ ways.



            Thus the result is $$ acdot b = {40!over 4!^5cdot 6!^4}$$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              Wow, your method is much quicker than mine! +1
              $endgroup$
              – Zubin Mukerjee
              2 days ago



















            0












            $begingroup$

            The number of ways to choose which players are reserves is $$binom{40}{16} $$



            The remaining $24$ players are starters.





            The number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the first team is $$binom{24}{6} $$



            Given this, the number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the second team from the remaining $18$ choices is $$binom{18}{6}$$



            Similarly, the third team's starters: $$binom{12}{6} $$



            The remaining $6$ must start for the last team.



            The total number of ways to arrange the starters within teams is



            $$ binom{24}{6} binom{18}{6} binom{12}{6}$$





            The same reasoning applies to reserves, and the total number of ways to arrange the reserves within teams is



            $$ binom{16}{4} binom{12}{4} binom{8}{4}$$





            Finally, the teams are not given distinguishing features (such as names) beforehand, so the order in which a set of four rosters is obtained is irrelevant. We've counted every assignment of the players $4!=24$ times instead of just once.



            To compensate for this we can simply divide by $24$.





            The final result is



            $$ displaystylefrac{ displaystylebinom{40}{16} displaystylebinom{24}{6} displaystylebinom{18}{6} displaystylebinom{12}{6} displaystylebinom{16}{4} displaystylebinom{12}{4} displaystylebinom{8}{4}}{24} $$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$





















              0












              $begingroup$

              There are: $$frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ counts.



              Then there are: $$frac1{4!}frac1{4!}frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^66!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ does not count.



              This determines $4$ selections and $4$ reserve-teams.



              There are $4!$ ways to connect each selection with one reserve team.



              That gives a total of: $$4!timesfrac{40!}{4!^66!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^56!^4}$$possibilities.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$













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                4 Answers
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                active

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                4 Answers
                4






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                active

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                active

                oldest

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                5












                $begingroup$

                You're on the right track.



                The number of ways to pick Team 1 is equal to $binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4$. After that, the number of ways to pick out Team 2 is $binom{30}6cdot binom{24}4$. And so on.



                Ultimately, the number of ways to pick out the full $4$ teams is
                $$
                binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4cdotbinom{30}6cdotbinom{24}4cdotbinom{20}6cdotbinom{14}4cdotbinom{10}6cdotbinom{4}4\
                = frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^4}
                $$

                (Also known as the multinomial coefficient $binom{40}{6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4}$.)



                However, we don't care which team is Team 1 and which team is Team 4. We just care which four teams are picked. Since the same four teams can be picked out in $4!$ ways, the total number of different team compositions is
                $$
                frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^5}
                $$






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  5












                  $begingroup$

                  You're on the right track.



                  The number of ways to pick Team 1 is equal to $binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4$. After that, the number of ways to pick out Team 2 is $binom{30}6cdot binom{24}4$. And so on.



                  Ultimately, the number of ways to pick out the full $4$ teams is
                  $$
                  binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4cdotbinom{30}6cdotbinom{24}4cdotbinom{20}6cdotbinom{14}4cdotbinom{10}6cdotbinom{4}4\
                  = frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^4}
                  $$

                  (Also known as the multinomial coefficient $binom{40}{6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4}$.)



                  However, we don't care which team is Team 1 and which team is Team 4. We just care which four teams are picked. Since the same four teams can be picked out in $4!$ ways, the total number of different team compositions is
                  $$
                  frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^5}
                  $$






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    5












                    5








                    5





                    $begingroup$

                    You're on the right track.



                    The number of ways to pick Team 1 is equal to $binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4$. After that, the number of ways to pick out Team 2 is $binom{30}6cdot binom{24}4$. And so on.



                    Ultimately, the number of ways to pick out the full $4$ teams is
                    $$
                    binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4cdotbinom{30}6cdotbinom{24}4cdotbinom{20}6cdotbinom{14}4cdotbinom{10}6cdotbinom{4}4\
                    = frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^4}
                    $$

                    (Also known as the multinomial coefficient $binom{40}{6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4}$.)



                    However, we don't care which team is Team 1 and which team is Team 4. We just care which four teams are picked. Since the same four teams can be picked out in $4!$ ways, the total number of different team compositions is
                    $$
                    frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^5}
                    $$






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    You're on the right track.



                    The number of ways to pick Team 1 is equal to $binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4$. After that, the number of ways to pick out Team 2 is $binom{30}6cdot binom{24}4$. And so on.



                    Ultimately, the number of ways to pick out the full $4$ teams is
                    $$
                    binom{40}6cdotbinom{34}4cdotbinom{30}6cdotbinom{24}4cdotbinom{20}6cdotbinom{14}4cdotbinom{10}6cdotbinom{4}4\
                    = frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^4}
                    $$

                    (Also known as the multinomial coefficient $binom{40}{6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4, 6, 4}$.)



                    However, we don't care which team is Team 1 and which team is Team 4. We just care which four teams are picked. Since the same four teams can be picked out in $4!$ ways, the total number of different team compositions is
                    $$
                    frac{40!}{(6!)^4cdot (4!)^5}
                    $$







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered 2 days ago









                    ArthurArthur

                    112k7109192




                    112k7109192























                        5












                        $begingroup$

                        I would do it a little different. First split 40 players in to groups of 10 players, that we can do on $$a= {1over 4!} cdot {40choose 10}cdot {30choose 10}cdot {20choose 10}cdot {10choose 10}$$
                        ways.



                        Now in each group choose 4 reserve players, so we can do that on $b={10choose 4}^4$ ways.



                        Thus the result is $$ acdot b = {40!over 4!^5cdot 6!^4}$$






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$













                        • $begingroup$
                          Wow, your method is much quicker than mine! +1
                          $endgroup$
                          – Zubin Mukerjee
                          2 days ago
















                        5












                        $begingroup$

                        I would do it a little different. First split 40 players in to groups of 10 players, that we can do on $$a= {1over 4!} cdot {40choose 10}cdot {30choose 10}cdot {20choose 10}cdot {10choose 10}$$
                        ways.



                        Now in each group choose 4 reserve players, so we can do that on $b={10choose 4}^4$ ways.



                        Thus the result is $$ acdot b = {40!over 4!^5cdot 6!^4}$$






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$













                        • $begingroup$
                          Wow, your method is much quicker than mine! +1
                          $endgroup$
                          – Zubin Mukerjee
                          2 days ago














                        5












                        5








                        5





                        $begingroup$

                        I would do it a little different. First split 40 players in to groups of 10 players, that we can do on $$a= {1over 4!} cdot {40choose 10}cdot {30choose 10}cdot {20choose 10}cdot {10choose 10}$$
                        ways.



                        Now in each group choose 4 reserve players, so we can do that on $b={10choose 4}^4$ ways.



                        Thus the result is $$ acdot b = {40!over 4!^5cdot 6!^4}$$






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$



                        I would do it a little different. First split 40 players in to groups of 10 players, that we can do on $$a= {1over 4!} cdot {40choose 10}cdot {30choose 10}cdot {20choose 10}cdot {10choose 10}$$
                        ways.



                        Now in each group choose 4 reserve players, so we can do that on $b={10choose 4}^4$ ways.



                        Thus the result is $$ acdot b = {40!over 4!^5cdot 6!^4}$$







                        share|cite|improve this answer












                        share|cite|improve this answer



                        share|cite|improve this answer










                        answered 2 days ago









                        greedoidgreedoid

                        39k114797




                        39k114797












                        • $begingroup$
                          Wow, your method is much quicker than mine! +1
                          $endgroup$
                          – Zubin Mukerjee
                          2 days ago


















                        • $begingroup$
                          Wow, your method is much quicker than mine! +1
                          $endgroup$
                          – Zubin Mukerjee
                          2 days ago
















                        $begingroup$
                        Wow, your method is much quicker than mine! +1
                        $endgroup$
                        – Zubin Mukerjee
                        2 days ago




                        $begingroup$
                        Wow, your method is much quicker than mine! +1
                        $endgroup$
                        – Zubin Mukerjee
                        2 days ago











                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        The number of ways to choose which players are reserves is $$binom{40}{16} $$



                        The remaining $24$ players are starters.





                        The number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the first team is $$binom{24}{6} $$



                        Given this, the number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the second team from the remaining $18$ choices is $$binom{18}{6}$$



                        Similarly, the third team's starters: $$binom{12}{6} $$



                        The remaining $6$ must start for the last team.



                        The total number of ways to arrange the starters within teams is



                        $$ binom{24}{6} binom{18}{6} binom{12}{6}$$





                        The same reasoning applies to reserves, and the total number of ways to arrange the reserves within teams is



                        $$ binom{16}{4} binom{12}{4} binom{8}{4}$$





                        Finally, the teams are not given distinguishing features (such as names) beforehand, so the order in which a set of four rosters is obtained is irrelevant. We've counted every assignment of the players $4!=24$ times instead of just once.



                        To compensate for this we can simply divide by $24$.





                        The final result is



                        $$ displaystylefrac{ displaystylebinom{40}{16} displaystylebinom{24}{6} displaystylebinom{18}{6} displaystylebinom{12}{6} displaystylebinom{16}{4} displaystylebinom{12}{4} displaystylebinom{8}{4}}{24} $$






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$


















                          0












                          $begingroup$

                          The number of ways to choose which players are reserves is $$binom{40}{16} $$



                          The remaining $24$ players are starters.





                          The number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the first team is $$binom{24}{6} $$



                          Given this, the number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the second team from the remaining $18$ choices is $$binom{18}{6}$$



                          Similarly, the third team's starters: $$binom{12}{6} $$



                          The remaining $6$ must start for the last team.



                          The total number of ways to arrange the starters within teams is



                          $$ binom{24}{6} binom{18}{6} binom{12}{6}$$





                          The same reasoning applies to reserves, and the total number of ways to arrange the reserves within teams is



                          $$ binom{16}{4} binom{12}{4} binom{8}{4}$$





                          Finally, the teams are not given distinguishing features (such as names) beforehand, so the order in which a set of four rosters is obtained is irrelevant. We've counted every assignment of the players $4!=24$ times instead of just once.



                          To compensate for this we can simply divide by $24$.





                          The final result is



                          $$ displaystylefrac{ displaystylebinom{40}{16} displaystylebinom{24}{6} displaystylebinom{18}{6} displaystylebinom{12}{6} displaystylebinom{16}{4} displaystylebinom{12}{4} displaystylebinom{8}{4}}{24} $$






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$
















                            0












                            0








                            0





                            $begingroup$

                            The number of ways to choose which players are reserves is $$binom{40}{16} $$



                            The remaining $24$ players are starters.





                            The number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the first team is $$binom{24}{6} $$



                            Given this, the number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the second team from the remaining $18$ choices is $$binom{18}{6}$$



                            Similarly, the third team's starters: $$binom{12}{6} $$



                            The remaining $6$ must start for the last team.



                            The total number of ways to arrange the starters within teams is



                            $$ binom{24}{6} binom{18}{6} binom{12}{6}$$





                            The same reasoning applies to reserves, and the total number of ways to arrange the reserves within teams is



                            $$ binom{16}{4} binom{12}{4} binom{8}{4}$$





                            Finally, the teams are not given distinguishing features (such as names) beforehand, so the order in which a set of four rosters is obtained is irrelevant. We've counted every assignment of the players $4!=24$ times instead of just once.



                            To compensate for this we can simply divide by $24$.





                            The final result is



                            $$ displaystylefrac{ displaystylebinom{40}{16} displaystylebinom{24}{6} displaystylebinom{18}{6} displaystylebinom{12}{6} displaystylebinom{16}{4} displaystylebinom{12}{4} displaystylebinom{8}{4}}{24} $$






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            The number of ways to choose which players are reserves is $$binom{40}{16} $$



                            The remaining $24$ players are starters.





                            The number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the first team is $$binom{24}{6} $$



                            Given this, the number of ways to choose the $6$ starters on the second team from the remaining $18$ choices is $$binom{18}{6}$$



                            Similarly, the third team's starters: $$binom{12}{6} $$



                            The remaining $6$ must start for the last team.



                            The total number of ways to arrange the starters within teams is



                            $$ binom{24}{6} binom{18}{6} binom{12}{6}$$





                            The same reasoning applies to reserves, and the total number of ways to arrange the reserves within teams is



                            $$ binom{16}{4} binom{12}{4} binom{8}{4}$$





                            Finally, the teams are not given distinguishing features (such as names) beforehand, so the order in which a set of four rosters is obtained is irrelevant. We've counted every assignment of the players $4!=24$ times instead of just once.



                            To compensate for this we can simply divide by $24$.





                            The final result is



                            $$ displaystylefrac{ displaystylebinom{40}{16} displaystylebinom{24}{6} displaystylebinom{18}{6} displaystylebinom{12}{6} displaystylebinom{16}{4} displaystylebinom{12}{4} displaystylebinom{8}{4}}{24} $$







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered 2 days ago









                            Zubin MukerjeeZubin Mukerjee

                            14.9k32658




                            14.9k32658























                                0












                                $begingroup$

                                There are: $$frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ counts.



                                Then there are: $$frac1{4!}frac1{4!}frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^66!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ does not count.



                                This determines $4$ selections and $4$ reserve-teams.



                                There are $4!$ ways to connect each selection with one reserve team.



                                That gives a total of: $$4!timesfrac{40!}{4!^66!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^56!^4}$$possibilities.






                                share|cite|improve this answer











                                $endgroup$


















                                  0












                                  $begingroup$

                                  There are: $$frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ counts.



                                  Then there are: $$frac1{4!}frac1{4!}frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^66!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ does not count.



                                  This determines $4$ selections and $4$ reserve-teams.



                                  There are $4!$ ways to connect each selection with one reserve team.



                                  That gives a total of: $$4!timesfrac{40!}{4!^66!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^56!^4}$$possibilities.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                  $endgroup$
















                                    0












                                    0








                                    0





                                    $begingroup$

                                    There are: $$frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ counts.



                                    Then there are: $$frac1{4!}frac1{4!}frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^66!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ does not count.



                                    This determines $4$ selections and $4$ reserve-teams.



                                    There are $4!$ ways to connect each selection with one reserve team.



                                    That gives a total of: $$4!timesfrac{40!}{4!^66!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^56!^4}$$possibilities.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                    $endgroup$



                                    There are: $$frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ counts.



                                    Then there are: $$frac1{4!}frac1{4!}frac{40!}{4!^46!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^66!^4}$$ways to split up the $40$ players in $4$ groups of $4$ and $4$ groups of $6$ in such a way that every player is member of exactly one group, and ordering of the groups of $4$ as well as ordering of the groups of $6$ does not count.



                                    This determines $4$ selections and $4$ reserve-teams.



                                    There are $4!$ ways to connect each selection with one reserve team.



                                    That gives a total of: $$4!timesfrac{40!}{4!^66!^4}=frac{40!}{4!^56!^4}$$possibilities.







                                    share|cite|improve this answer














                                    share|cite|improve this answer



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                                    edited 2 days ago

























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                                    drhabdrhab

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