What's the point of having a locked door if the players can just destroy it?












41














A lock may be picked or a lock may be broken after a few attempts, but what stops the players from just destroying the locked object? Especially wooden doors, but even iron doors or wooden chests, all have AC and HP according to the rules.



Four or five characters with a crowbar will eventually open any door orchest that's not magically locked. Or should the DM not allow multiple attempts to destroy an object?



I've always read about how DMs should not ask players to roll when there are no consequences to the roll. And there is no consequence unless the door can somehow remain blocked after a few failed attempts.










share|improve this question









New contributor




Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 1




    @corsiKa See this FAQ for why your comment was removed. Thanks!
    – SevenSidedDie
    yesterday
















41














A lock may be picked or a lock may be broken after a few attempts, but what stops the players from just destroying the locked object? Especially wooden doors, but even iron doors or wooden chests, all have AC and HP according to the rules.



Four or five characters with a crowbar will eventually open any door orchest that's not magically locked. Or should the DM not allow multiple attempts to destroy an object?



I've always read about how DMs should not ask players to roll when there are no consequences to the roll. And there is no consequence unless the door can somehow remain blocked after a few failed attempts.










share|improve this question









New contributor




Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 1




    @corsiKa See this FAQ for why your comment was removed. Thanks!
    – SevenSidedDie
    yesterday














41












41








41


5





A lock may be picked or a lock may be broken after a few attempts, but what stops the players from just destroying the locked object? Especially wooden doors, but even iron doors or wooden chests, all have AC and HP according to the rules.



Four or five characters with a crowbar will eventually open any door orchest that's not magically locked. Or should the DM not allow multiple attempts to destroy an object?



I've always read about how DMs should not ask players to roll when there are no consequences to the roll. And there is no consequence unless the door can somehow remain blocked after a few failed attempts.










share|improve this question









New contributor




Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











A lock may be picked or a lock may be broken after a few attempts, but what stops the players from just destroying the locked object? Especially wooden doors, but even iron doors or wooden chests, all have AC and HP according to the rules.



Four or five characters with a crowbar will eventually open any door orchest that's not magically locked. Or should the DM not allow multiple attempts to destroy an object?



I've always read about how DMs should not ask players to roll when there are no consequences to the roll. And there is no consequence unless the door can somehow remain blocked after a few failed attempts.







dnd-5e dungeon-design






share|improve this question









New contributor




Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









SevenSidedDie

205k30657934




205k30657934






New contributor




Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 2 days ago









Alex Parvan

35826




35826




New contributor




Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Alex Parvan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 1




    @corsiKa See this FAQ for why your comment was removed. Thanks!
    – SevenSidedDie
    yesterday














  • 1




    @corsiKa See this FAQ for why your comment was removed. Thanks!
    – SevenSidedDie
    yesterday








1




1




@corsiKa See this FAQ for why your comment was removed. Thanks!
– SevenSidedDie
yesterday




@corsiKa See this FAQ for why your comment was removed. Thanks!
– SevenSidedDie
yesterday










8 Answers
8






active

oldest

votes


















107














When it comes to doors and chests, it really helps to think of them in terms of real objects and interactions.



For example, My house has a front door. It's made of wood and I always lock it when I leave, so people can't get in. Next to my front door, there's a massive 2x2 meter window (AC 10, 1hp) and anyone who wants to get in my house can just chuck a brick through it and go inside.



What stops them from doing this? Certainly not the stats of the window. More likely, the fact that trashing the window alerts the entire neighbourhood, will get the police called and make it very clear to anyone observing that a crime is happening. The exact same thing would happen if they bust down the door with a crowbar. Of course, if they come up with a key, or was good with a lockpick , nobody would bat an eye and they could rob the place with impunity.



If you present your players with the obstacle of a locked door in a vacuum, nothing stops them from tearing it down and rolling probably isn't necessary. At that point, your door is just there for variety and because it makes sense, but it isn't an obstacle.



But probably someone put that door there, for a reason. What happens when others notice that the door is being dismantled, that's the real obstacle. A roll is required when you want to bust the door down and get through before the guards arrive, and a lockpick is preferred when you don't want every casual onlooker to see that you're busting into some place.



Lacking caring onlookers, locked objects are mostly just a short roadblock to a determined attacker. But that's the same in reality. Either you have the tools to dismantle the object, or you don't.






share|improve this answer

















  • 4




    I'd also note that some doors would be much harder or even impossible to break down with simple tools and a lack of magic. This could be steel prison doors or thick 5m high doors outside a palace. The latter would probably be locked with something other than a key, but still...
    – Brian R
    2 days ago






  • 7




    This is a good answer. It might be worth mentioning that doors and other locked objects can be trapped, and it's possible that breaking into it might set a trap off differently than picking the lock.
    – Jack
    2 days ago






  • 3




    Also, some items can be rigged in a way that breaking them open ruins their contents (think of a metal scroll case with a small chamber of alchemist fire or acid inside it - break it open and the scrolls are destroyed...)
    – G0BLiN
    yesterday










  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. (The suggestions have been left for now until they’re taken or rejected.)
    – SevenSidedDie
    yesterday








  • 2




    Another factor: Wrecking a door makes a lot of noise, alerting everybody around that something untoward is going down, even if they can't see it.
    – T.J.L.
    14 hours ago





















37














Breaking down doors is loud, doors have uses, and some doors are much harder to break down than others.



Breaking down doors is loud. Unlike picking a lock, smashing a lock is a loud and attention attracting activity. Monsters can pinpoint your player's location and prepare an ambush, flee with treasure, and generally do a lot of unpleasant things. Enemies can find the broken door and track you down. If there's no monsters close by then, have at it. No consequences, no time pressure, let them succeed.



Doors have uses. They stop people entering places. If you leave a door intact you can use it to bar enemies, you can use it to lock someone in places, you can use it to be more stealthy. There are often good reasons to leave barriers intact. Picking a lock gives you control over that lock, in that there is still a door to be locked or barred. Likewise, chests have uses, they keep items safe- if you smash them, those items are not gonna be happy.



Some doors are much harder to break down than others. Some doors have heavy bars on them, or are made of iron or steel or magical materials. Some are giant stone columns that only open if you say friend in elvish. For these doors the lock picking roll might be much lower than the breaking roll, so it will be much faster and actually feasible to pick the lock than smash it.






share|improve this answer



















  • 12




    I’d object to “Picking a lock gives you control over that lock.” Neither in the rules or in real life does picking a lock give you an easier way to control a lock. To relock it you have to re-pick it, and to unlock it again you have to pick it a third time, etc. You might get some advantage for familiarity (in real life or from a generous DM).
    – SevenSidedDie
    2 days ago








  • 5




    I'd add, breaking down a door leaves evidence behind.
    – Dave Costa
    2 days ago






  • 1




    And it takes time to deal with the door, possibly leading to wandering monsters happening by,
    – LAK
    2 days ago










  • I was more saying that you had more control over the lock than if it was kindling than absolute control, but I will clarify. And I'll add the point about evidence being left behind.
    – Nepene Nep
    yesterday






  • 2




    @SevenSidedDie Real life has many designs of locks that can be locked without a key, whether simply by closing the door, or rotating a little switch, or pressing a button. And yes, all of these can be done with purely mechanical designs. Some of these can even be unlocked without a key or picking them, if you're on the right side. So while picking a lock might not give you complete control over it, it's not an automatic guarantee that you'll have no control at all.
    – 8bittree
    10 hours ago



















13














If there is no downside to breaking down a door compared to unlocking it, there is no point in choosing one over the other (except for ability to do either)



Unlocking a door is quiet, and does not necessarily alert the next room of monsters that the players have arrived. Breaking down a door is a messy and loud affair. If any subterfuge is needed for players (be it in a noble's house or a dungeon) then breaking down the door is obviously not the best idea.



If there are no consequences for actions the players take, then they can do whatever they want with no fear of reprisal.



A possible solution to players breaking down doors willy-nilly is by making such objects have a damage threshold that means below the damage value the door cannot be hurt at all. This is a possibly confusing mechanic to spring on your players, so mentioning it beforehand would likely be a good idea.






share|improve this answer































    12














    We can look to real life to gain some insight:



    Bank vaults in the US are rated to 4 different possibilities against forced entry:





    • M 15 minutes

    • Class I 30 minutes

    • Class II 60 minutes

    • Class III 120 minutes




    Classified storage of national security secrets also have door certifications, the Class 5 vault doors being:





    • 20 man-hours against surreptitious entry.

    • 30 man-minutes against covert entry.

    • 10 man-minutes against forced entry.




    The door will only slow down a determined attacker, which is why there are also provisions for other required security:





    1. For Top Secret information stored outside the United States, one or more of the following supplemental security controls is
      required:

      (a) The area that houses the security container or vault
      will be subject to the continuous protection of guard or duty
      personnel;

      (b) Guard or duty personnel will inspect the security
      container or vault at least once every 2 hours; or

      (c) The security
      container or vault will be controlled by an alarm system to which a
      force will respond in person within 15 minutes.




    Bottom line: if modern national security vaults and banks can be breached in a matter of minutes via force, it's pretty likely dungeon doors and chests can as well. Add other security features if you want to truly secure something... and if they've killed all the guards, it's pretty reasonable to assume they can bang their way into almost anything if they want to take the time to do it.



    The way our DM has protected chests in the past is having a manufacturer's notice in common that reads:




    WARNING: Thank you for buying Thurlin's Secure Storage: this chest contains an anti-tamper acid ampule. Excessive movement or lifting of the lid without disengaging the lock will damage or destroy the contents of the chest.




    and when we got used to breaking into those we ran into a:




    WARNING: this chest contains explosive run... - boom







    share|improve this answer

















    • 1




      I am reminded of the original Castle Wolfenstein game for Apple ][ where you could shoot chests to open them more quickly, unless they contained explosives....
      – Robert Columbia
      2 days ago



















    11














    Everyone is talking about doors, but you also ask about chests. If you break open a chest, in Real Life, there's a fair chance that whatever's inside will get damaged, right? If there's something fragile inside, it might get smashed. If there's liquid inside, (inside a fragile bottle, for instance,) it might stain other items in the chest, for example making a precious scroll unreadable. You could introduce consequences to breaking the chest open instead of unlocking it.






    share|improve this answer





















    • Netback does this well. Kick a door and you attract monsters with noise. Kick a chest to force the lock and there is a good chance of destroying any potion or other fragile item inside. Kick a shopkeeper's door and if you're lucky he will demand you pay for it, or else will just attack.
      – Adam Eberbach
      yesterday










    • This is the exact example I would give: collateral damage. As for instance in an early Glass Cannon Podcast episode where the group comes across a locked chest: As it turns out, attempting to break the lock would result in a 75% risk of breaking each item within.
      – KlaymenDK
      14 hours ago






    • 1




      Sounds like a good place to keep a fragile bottle of Greek fire.
      – GrandmasterB
      7 hours ago



















    5














    Oops, I broke my axe



    Weapons used to destroy a door or chest could be damaged in the process...



    I don't think there's any rules about weapons taking damage normally (except some monsters causing corrosion), but it's reasonable that a nice sharp axe or sword could be damaged smashing up stuff made of wood & metal.



    A "smashing" weapon like a hammer, or a crowbar specifically might have no problems, but anything else could be fair game.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.














    • 1




      This is a very good point. If you are 8 levels down in a dungeon, is it really wise to be bashing things open with the sword you rely on for protection?
      – GrandmasterB
      7 hours ago



















    4














    Summary: A door is a tactical (sometimes, strategic) element with plenty of uses and a cost to manipulating it. Break it if you are in a hurry and enemies know of you, or if there are no enemies, while leave it functional if there is a chance of using it against your enemies.



    Chests are similar but less complicated.



    Breaking doors makes noise



    Noise alerts creatures. The usual rate of wandering monster checks in large dungeons with mobile inhabitants is, for me, once every ten minutes, with 1/6 chance of encounter. I also roll after noise occurances, such as combat or breaking down doors. And, of course, any nearby creatures will often hear the noise automatically or with good chance. If breaking in takes significant time, that also triggers a wandering monster roll or moves the next one closer.



    This is not an issue in places without wandering inhabitants, such as very small dungeons or ancient sealed tombs.



    A broken door is a sign of forced entry



    This is an issue in civilized or organized dungeons, such as cities and fortresses, or when trying to rob the ancient mage's tower without the ancient mage figuring it out.



    Dead enemies everywhere is also a sign of forced entry, so this might not matter too much in many situations.



    Doors control the movement of others, too



    Wolves and unarmed zombies will have very hard time getting through sturdy wooden doors, even given time. Many enemies will spend at least a moment to penetrate a door, and might not be clever enough to open one. Doors can be barred for further security. In a typical dungeon environment with some animals or weaker creatures, doors can be used for good benefit.



    Also, if one wants to rest within a dungeon, closing and barring a door creates a nice alarm system and might prevent some wandering monsters from reaching you at all.



    Doors control vision (and sound a bit)



    Controlling vision allows hiding and resting and makes ranged attacks a lot harder. Hiding behind a door to run away or surprise someone is a classic maneuver.



    Not everything breaks doors



    A rondel or a sword is not the proper tool for breaking a door - you would get a dull edge or a small hole, which is often not very useful. It would be a waste of a battle axe, too - use a woodcutter's axe or something similar. The rules of D&D 5 leave simulating such concerns on the dungeon master, whose duty it is to keep the game world credible. (We prefer to share this duty among the entire gaming group.)



    The matter of chests



    Chests protect things. Breaking a chest might break those things, or you might want to have a nice chest for other purposes, if it can be carried. The concerns of noise are there, as are leaving tracks.






    share|improve this answer





























      3














      The lock may actually defeat them




      4-5 guys with a crowbar will eventually open any door/chest that's not magically locked.




      Maybe.



      I no longer have a reference to the article, but a few years ago there were a couple of thieves that figured out they could steal a freestanding ATM by tying a heavy chain around it and dragging it down the road behind their truck.

      After a certain distance most of the pieces came off, however the steel reinforced part that contained the money was intact. At that point they lifted the remaining piece into the truck and drove off.

      (The extra pieces and the scrape marks gouged in the road were easy to follow to that point.)



      At some point after that, they gave up and tossed it into a creek where it was found by the authorities.

      It was bent out of shape, but it still had all of the money inside it.



      Maybe they were too dumb to steal a blowtorch, or maybe they were smart enough to realize that the blowtorch would burn the paper money inside... I don't know which.






      share|improve this answer























        Your Answer





        StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
        return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
        StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
        StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
        });
        });
        }, "mathjax-editing");

        StackExchange.ready(function() {
        var channelOptions = {
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "122"
        };
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
        createEditor();
        });
        }
        else {
        createEditor();
        }
        });

        function createEditor() {
        StackExchange.prepareEditor({
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: false,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: null,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader: {
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        },
        noCode: true, onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        });


        }
        });






        Alex Parvan is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function () {
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f138193%2fwhats-the-point-of-having-a-locked-door-if-the-players-can-just-destroy-it%23new-answer', 'question_page');
        }
        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        8 Answers
        8






        active

        oldest

        votes








        8 Answers
        8






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        107














        When it comes to doors and chests, it really helps to think of them in terms of real objects and interactions.



        For example, My house has a front door. It's made of wood and I always lock it when I leave, so people can't get in. Next to my front door, there's a massive 2x2 meter window (AC 10, 1hp) and anyone who wants to get in my house can just chuck a brick through it and go inside.



        What stops them from doing this? Certainly not the stats of the window. More likely, the fact that trashing the window alerts the entire neighbourhood, will get the police called and make it very clear to anyone observing that a crime is happening. The exact same thing would happen if they bust down the door with a crowbar. Of course, if they come up with a key, or was good with a lockpick , nobody would bat an eye and they could rob the place with impunity.



        If you present your players with the obstacle of a locked door in a vacuum, nothing stops them from tearing it down and rolling probably isn't necessary. At that point, your door is just there for variety and because it makes sense, but it isn't an obstacle.



        But probably someone put that door there, for a reason. What happens when others notice that the door is being dismantled, that's the real obstacle. A roll is required when you want to bust the door down and get through before the guards arrive, and a lockpick is preferred when you don't want every casual onlooker to see that you're busting into some place.



        Lacking caring onlookers, locked objects are mostly just a short roadblock to a determined attacker. But that's the same in reality. Either you have the tools to dismantle the object, or you don't.






        share|improve this answer

















        • 4




          I'd also note that some doors would be much harder or even impossible to break down with simple tools and a lack of magic. This could be steel prison doors or thick 5m high doors outside a palace. The latter would probably be locked with something other than a key, but still...
          – Brian R
          2 days ago






        • 7




          This is a good answer. It might be worth mentioning that doors and other locked objects can be trapped, and it's possible that breaking into it might set a trap off differently than picking the lock.
          – Jack
          2 days ago






        • 3




          Also, some items can be rigged in a way that breaking them open ruins their contents (think of a metal scroll case with a small chamber of alchemist fire or acid inside it - break it open and the scrolls are destroyed...)
          – G0BLiN
          yesterday










        • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. (The suggestions have been left for now until they’re taken or rejected.)
          – SevenSidedDie
          yesterday








        • 2




          Another factor: Wrecking a door makes a lot of noise, alerting everybody around that something untoward is going down, even if they can't see it.
          – T.J.L.
          14 hours ago


















        107














        When it comes to doors and chests, it really helps to think of them in terms of real objects and interactions.



        For example, My house has a front door. It's made of wood and I always lock it when I leave, so people can't get in. Next to my front door, there's a massive 2x2 meter window (AC 10, 1hp) and anyone who wants to get in my house can just chuck a brick through it and go inside.



        What stops them from doing this? Certainly not the stats of the window. More likely, the fact that trashing the window alerts the entire neighbourhood, will get the police called and make it very clear to anyone observing that a crime is happening. The exact same thing would happen if they bust down the door with a crowbar. Of course, if they come up with a key, or was good with a lockpick , nobody would bat an eye and they could rob the place with impunity.



        If you present your players with the obstacle of a locked door in a vacuum, nothing stops them from tearing it down and rolling probably isn't necessary. At that point, your door is just there for variety and because it makes sense, but it isn't an obstacle.



        But probably someone put that door there, for a reason. What happens when others notice that the door is being dismantled, that's the real obstacle. A roll is required when you want to bust the door down and get through before the guards arrive, and a lockpick is preferred when you don't want every casual onlooker to see that you're busting into some place.



        Lacking caring onlookers, locked objects are mostly just a short roadblock to a determined attacker. But that's the same in reality. Either you have the tools to dismantle the object, or you don't.






        share|improve this answer

















        • 4




          I'd also note that some doors would be much harder or even impossible to break down with simple tools and a lack of magic. This could be steel prison doors or thick 5m high doors outside a palace. The latter would probably be locked with something other than a key, but still...
          – Brian R
          2 days ago






        • 7




          This is a good answer. It might be worth mentioning that doors and other locked objects can be trapped, and it's possible that breaking into it might set a trap off differently than picking the lock.
          – Jack
          2 days ago






        • 3




          Also, some items can be rigged in a way that breaking them open ruins their contents (think of a metal scroll case with a small chamber of alchemist fire or acid inside it - break it open and the scrolls are destroyed...)
          – G0BLiN
          yesterday










        • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. (The suggestions have been left for now until they’re taken or rejected.)
          – SevenSidedDie
          yesterday








        • 2




          Another factor: Wrecking a door makes a lot of noise, alerting everybody around that something untoward is going down, even if they can't see it.
          – T.J.L.
          14 hours ago
















        107












        107








        107






        When it comes to doors and chests, it really helps to think of them in terms of real objects and interactions.



        For example, My house has a front door. It's made of wood and I always lock it when I leave, so people can't get in. Next to my front door, there's a massive 2x2 meter window (AC 10, 1hp) and anyone who wants to get in my house can just chuck a brick through it and go inside.



        What stops them from doing this? Certainly not the stats of the window. More likely, the fact that trashing the window alerts the entire neighbourhood, will get the police called and make it very clear to anyone observing that a crime is happening. The exact same thing would happen if they bust down the door with a crowbar. Of course, if they come up with a key, or was good with a lockpick , nobody would bat an eye and they could rob the place with impunity.



        If you present your players with the obstacle of a locked door in a vacuum, nothing stops them from tearing it down and rolling probably isn't necessary. At that point, your door is just there for variety and because it makes sense, but it isn't an obstacle.



        But probably someone put that door there, for a reason. What happens when others notice that the door is being dismantled, that's the real obstacle. A roll is required when you want to bust the door down and get through before the guards arrive, and a lockpick is preferred when you don't want every casual onlooker to see that you're busting into some place.



        Lacking caring onlookers, locked objects are mostly just a short roadblock to a determined attacker. But that's the same in reality. Either you have the tools to dismantle the object, or you don't.






        share|improve this answer












        When it comes to doors and chests, it really helps to think of them in terms of real objects and interactions.



        For example, My house has a front door. It's made of wood and I always lock it when I leave, so people can't get in. Next to my front door, there's a massive 2x2 meter window (AC 10, 1hp) and anyone who wants to get in my house can just chuck a brick through it and go inside.



        What stops them from doing this? Certainly not the stats of the window. More likely, the fact that trashing the window alerts the entire neighbourhood, will get the police called and make it very clear to anyone observing that a crime is happening. The exact same thing would happen if they bust down the door with a crowbar. Of course, if they come up with a key, or was good with a lockpick , nobody would bat an eye and they could rob the place with impunity.



        If you present your players with the obstacle of a locked door in a vacuum, nothing stops them from tearing it down and rolling probably isn't necessary. At that point, your door is just there for variety and because it makes sense, but it isn't an obstacle.



        But probably someone put that door there, for a reason. What happens when others notice that the door is being dismantled, that's the real obstacle. A roll is required when you want to bust the door down and get through before the guards arrive, and a lockpick is preferred when you don't want every casual onlooker to see that you're busting into some place.



        Lacking caring onlookers, locked objects are mostly just a short roadblock to a determined attacker. But that's the same in reality. Either you have the tools to dismantle the object, or you don't.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 2 days ago









        Erik

        44.3k12158227




        44.3k12158227








        • 4




          I'd also note that some doors would be much harder or even impossible to break down with simple tools and a lack of magic. This could be steel prison doors or thick 5m high doors outside a palace. The latter would probably be locked with something other than a key, but still...
          – Brian R
          2 days ago






        • 7




          This is a good answer. It might be worth mentioning that doors and other locked objects can be trapped, and it's possible that breaking into it might set a trap off differently than picking the lock.
          – Jack
          2 days ago






        • 3




          Also, some items can be rigged in a way that breaking them open ruins their contents (think of a metal scroll case with a small chamber of alchemist fire or acid inside it - break it open and the scrolls are destroyed...)
          – G0BLiN
          yesterday










        • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. (The suggestions have been left for now until they’re taken or rejected.)
          – SevenSidedDie
          yesterday








        • 2




          Another factor: Wrecking a door makes a lot of noise, alerting everybody around that something untoward is going down, even if they can't see it.
          – T.J.L.
          14 hours ago
















        • 4




          I'd also note that some doors would be much harder or even impossible to break down with simple tools and a lack of magic. This could be steel prison doors or thick 5m high doors outside a palace. The latter would probably be locked with something other than a key, but still...
          – Brian R
          2 days ago






        • 7




          This is a good answer. It might be worth mentioning that doors and other locked objects can be trapped, and it's possible that breaking into it might set a trap off differently than picking the lock.
          – Jack
          2 days ago






        • 3




          Also, some items can be rigged in a way that breaking them open ruins their contents (think of a metal scroll case with a small chamber of alchemist fire or acid inside it - break it open and the scrolls are destroyed...)
          – G0BLiN
          yesterday










        • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. (The suggestions have been left for now until they’re taken or rejected.)
          – SevenSidedDie
          yesterday








        • 2




          Another factor: Wrecking a door makes a lot of noise, alerting everybody around that something untoward is going down, even if they can't see it.
          – T.J.L.
          14 hours ago










        4




        4




        I'd also note that some doors would be much harder or even impossible to break down with simple tools and a lack of magic. This could be steel prison doors or thick 5m high doors outside a palace. The latter would probably be locked with something other than a key, but still...
        – Brian R
        2 days ago




        I'd also note that some doors would be much harder or even impossible to break down with simple tools and a lack of magic. This could be steel prison doors or thick 5m high doors outside a palace. The latter would probably be locked with something other than a key, but still...
        – Brian R
        2 days ago




        7




        7




        This is a good answer. It might be worth mentioning that doors and other locked objects can be trapped, and it's possible that breaking into it might set a trap off differently than picking the lock.
        – Jack
        2 days ago




        This is a good answer. It might be worth mentioning that doors and other locked objects can be trapped, and it's possible that breaking into it might set a trap off differently than picking the lock.
        – Jack
        2 days ago




        3




        3




        Also, some items can be rigged in a way that breaking them open ruins their contents (think of a metal scroll case with a small chamber of alchemist fire or acid inside it - break it open and the scrolls are destroyed...)
        – G0BLiN
        yesterday




        Also, some items can be rigged in a way that breaking them open ruins their contents (think of a metal scroll case with a small chamber of alchemist fire or acid inside it - break it open and the scrolls are destroyed...)
        – G0BLiN
        yesterday












        Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. (The suggestions have been left for now until they’re taken or rejected.)
        – SevenSidedDie
        yesterday






        Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. (The suggestions have been left for now until they’re taken or rejected.)
        – SevenSidedDie
        yesterday






        2




        2




        Another factor: Wrecking a door makes a lot of noise, alerting everybody around that something untoward is going down, even if they can't see it.
        – T.J.L.
        14 hours ago






        Another factor: Wrecking a door makes a lot of noise, alerting everybody around that something untoward is going down, even if they can't see it.
        – T.J.L.
        14 hours ago















        37














        Breaking down doors is loud, doors have uses, and some doors are much harder to break down than others.



        Breaking down doors is loud. Unlike picking a lock, smashing a lock is a loud and attention attracting activity. Monsters can pinpoint your player's location and prepare an ambush, flee with treasure, and generally do a lot of unpleasant things. Enemies can find the broken door and track you down. If there's no monsters close by then, have at it. No consequences, no time pressure, let them succeed.



        Doors have uses. They stop people entering places. If you leave a door intact you can use it to bar enemies, you can use it to lock someone in places, you can use it to be more stealthy. There are often good reasons to leave barriers intact. Picking a lock gives you control over that lock, in that there is still a door to be locked or barred. Likewise, chests have uses, they keep items safe- if you smash them, those items are not gonna be happy.



        Some doors are much harder to break down than others. Some doors have heavy bars on them, or are made of iron or steel or magical materials. Some are giant stone columns that only open if you say friend in elvish. For these doors the lock picking roll might be much lower than the breaking roll, so it will be much faster and actually feasible to pick the lock than smash it.






        share|improve this answer



















        • 12




          I’d object to “Picking a lock gives you control over that lock.” Neither in the rules or in real life does picking a lock give you an easier way to control a lock. To relock it you have to re-pick it, and to unlock it again you have to pick it a third time, etc. You might get some advantage for familiarity (in real life or from a generous DM).
          – SevenSidedDie
          2 days ago








        • 5




          I'd add, breaking down a door leaves evidence behind.
          – Dave Costa
          2 days ago






        • 1




          And it takes time to deal with the door, possibly leading to wandering monsters happening by,
          – LAK
          2 days ago










        • I was more saying that you had more control over the lock than if it was kindling than absolute control, but I will clarify. And I'll add the point about evidence being left behind.
          – Nepene Nep
          yesterday






        • 2




          @SevenSidedDie Real life has many designs of locks that can be locked without a key, whether simply by closing the door, or rotating a little switch, or pressing a button. And yes, all of these can be done with purely mechanical designs. Some of these can even be unlocked without a key or picking them, if you're on the right side. So while picking a lock might not give you complete control over it, it's not an automatic guarantee that you'll have no control at all.
          – 8bittree
          10 hours ago
















        37














        Breaking down doors is loud, doors have uses, and some doors are much harder to break down than others.



        Breaking down doors is loud. Unlike picking a lock, smashing a lock is a loud and attention attracting activity. Monsters can pinpoint your player's location and prepare an ambush, flee with treasure, and generally do a lot of unpleasant things. Enemies can find the broken door and track you down. If there's no monsters close by then, have at it. No consequences, no time pressure, let them succeed.



        Doors have uses. They stop people entering places. If you leave a door intact you can use it to bar enemies, you can use it to lock someone in places, you can use it to be more stealthy. There are often good reasons to leave barriers intact. Picking a lock gives you control over that lock, in that there is still a door to be locked or barred. Likewise, chests have uses, they keep items safe- if you smash them, those items are not gonna be happy.



        Some doors are much harder to break down than others. Some doors have heavy bars on them, or are made of iron or steel or magical materials. Some are giant stone columns that only open if you say friend in elvish. For these doors the lock picking roll might be much lower than the breaking roll, so it will be much faster and actually feasible to pick the lock than smash it.






        share|improve this answer



















        • 12




          I’d object to “Picking a lock gives you control over that lock.” Neither in the rules or in real life does picking a lock give you an easier way to control a lock. To relock it you have to re-pick it, and to unlock it again you have to pick it a third time, etc. You might get some advantage for familiarity (in real life or from a generous DM).
          – SevenSidedDie
          2 days ago








        • 5




          I'd add, breaking down a door leaves evidence behind.
          – Dave Costa
          2 days ago






        • 1




          And it takes time to deal with the door, possibly leading to wandering monsters happening by,
          – LAK
          2 days ago










        • I was more saying that you had more control over the lock than if it was kindling than absolute control, but I will clarify. And I'll add the point about evidence being left behind.
          – Nepene Nep
          yesterday






        • 2




          @SevenSidedDie Real life has many designs of locks that can be locked without a key, whether simply by closing the door, or rotating a little switch, or pressing a button. And yes, all of these can be done with purely mechanical designs. Some of these can even be unlocked without a key or picking them, if you're on the right side. So while picking a lock might not give you complete control over it, it's not an automatic guarantee that you'll have no control at all.
          – 8bittree
          10 hours ago














        37












        37








        37






        Breaking down doors is loud, doors have uses, and some doors are much harder to break down than others.



        Breaking down doors is loud. Unlike picking a lock, smashing a lock is a loud and attention attracting activity. Monsters can pinpoint your player's location and prepare an ambush, flee with treasure, and generally do a lot of unpleasant things. Enemies can find the broken door and track you down. If there's no monsters close by then, have at it. No consequences, no time pressure, let them succeed.



        Doors have uses. They stop people entering places. If you leave a door intact you can use it to bar enemies, you can use it to lock someone in places, you can use it to be more stealthy. There are often good reasons to leave barriers intact. Picking a lock gives you control over that lock, in that there is still a door to be locked or barred. Likewise, chests have uses, they keep items safe- if you smash them, those items are not gonna be happy.



        Some doors are much harder to break down than others. Some doors have heavy bars on them, or are made of iron or steel or magical materials. Some are giant stone columns that only open if you say friend in elvish. For these doors the lock picking roll might be much lower than the breaking roll, so it will be much faster and actually feasible to pick the lock than smash it.






        share|improve this answer














        Breaking down doors is loud, doors have uses, and some doors are much harder to break down than others.



        Breaking down doors is loud. Unlike picking a lock, smashing a lock is a loud and attention attracting activity. Monsters can pinpoint your player's location and prepare an ambush, flee with treasure, and generally do a lot of unpleasant things. Enemies can find the broken door and track you down. If there's no monsters close by then, have at it. No consequences, no time pressure, let them succeed.



        Doors have uses. They stop people entering places. If you leave a door intact you can use it to bar enemies, you can use it to lock someone in places, you can use it to be more stealthy. There are often good reasons to leave barriers intact. Picking a lock gives you control over that lock, in that there is still a door to be locked or barred. Likewise, chests have uses, they keep items safe- if you smash them, those items are not gonna be happy.



        Some doors are much harder to break down than others. Some doors have heavy bars on them, or are made of iron or steel or magical materials. Some are giant stone columns that only open if you say friend in elvish. For these doors the lock picking roll might be much lower than the breaking roll, so it will be much faster and actually feasible to pick the lock than smash it.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered 2 days ago









        Nepene Nep

        3,102525




        3,102525








        • 12




          I’d object to “Picking a lock gives you control over that lock.” Neither in the rules or in real life does picking a lock give you an easier way to control a lock. To relock it you have to re-pick it, and to unlock it again you have to pick it a third time, etc. You might get some advantage for familiarity (in real life or from a generous DM).
          – SevenSidedDie
          2 days ago








        • 5




          I'd add, breaking down a door leaves evidence behind.
          – Dave Costa
          2 days ago






        • 1




          And it takes time to deal with the door, possibly leading to wandering monsters happening by,
          – LAK
          2 days ago










        • I was more saying that you had more control over the lock than if it was kindling than absolute control, but I will clarify. And I'll add the point about evidence being left behind.
          – Nepene Nep
          yesterday






        • 2




          @SevenSidedDie Real life has many designs of locks that can be locked without a key, whether simply by closing the door, or rotating a little switch, or pressing a button. And yes, all of these can be done with purely mechanical designs. Some of these can even be unlocked without a key or picking them, if you're on the right side. So while picking a lock might not give you complete control over it, it's not an automatic guarantee that you'll have no control at all.
          – 8bittree
          10 hours ago














        • 12




          I’d object to “Picking a lock gives you control over that lock.” Neither in the rules or in real life does picking a lock give you an easier way to control a lock. To relock it you have to re-pick it, and to unlock it again you have to pick it a third time, etc. You might get some advantage for familiarity (in real life or from a generous DM).
          – SevenSidedDie
          2 days ago








        • 5




          I'd add, breaking down a door leaves evidence behind.
          – Dave Costa
          2 days ago






        • 1




          And it takes time to deal with the door, possibly leading to wandering monsters happening by,
          – LAK
          2 days ago










        • I was more saying that you had more control over the lock than if it was kindling than absolute control, but I will clarify. And I'll add the point about evidence being left behind.
          – Nepene Nep
          yesterday






        • 2




          @SevenSidedDie Real life has many designs of locks that can be locked without a key, whether simply by closing the door, or rotating a little switch, or pressing a button. And yes, all of these can be done with purely mechanical designs. Some of these can even be unlocked without a key or picking them, if you're on the right side. So while picking a lock might not give you complete control over it, it's not an automatic guarantee that you'll have no control at all.
          – 8bittree
          10 hours ago








        12




        12




        I’d object to “Picking a lock gives you control over that lock.” Neither in the rules or in real life does picking a lock give you an easier way to control a lock. To relock it you have to re-pick it, and to unlock it again you have to pick it a third time, etc. You might get some advantage for familiarity (in real life or from a generous DM).
        – SevenSidedDie
        2 days ago






        I’d object to “Picking a lock gives you control over that lock.” Neither in the rules or in real life does picking a lock give you an easier way to control a lock. To relock it you have to re-pick it, and to unlock it again you have to pick it a third time, etc. You might get some advantage for familiarity (in real life or from a generous DM).
        – SevenSidedDie
        2 days ago






        5




        5




        I'd add, breaking down a door leaves evidence behind.
        – Dave Costa
        2 days ago




        I'd add, breaking down a door leaves evidence behind.
        – Dave Costa
        2 days ago




        1




        1




        And it takes time to deal with the door, possibly leading to wandering monsters happening by,
        – LAK
        2 days ago




        And it takes time to deal with the door, possibly leading to wandering monsters happening by,
        – LAK
        2 days ago












        I was more saying that you had more control over the lock than if it was kindling than absolute control, but I will clarify. And I'll add the point about evidence being left behind.
        – Nepene Nep
        yesterday




        I was more saying that you had more control over the lock than if it was kindling than absolute control, but I will clarify. And I'll add the point about evidence being left behind.
        – Nepene Nep
        yesterday




        2




        2




        @SevenSidedDie Real life has many designs of locks that can be locked without a key, whether simply by closing the door, or rotating a little switch, or pressing a button. And yes, all of these can be done with purely mechanical designs. Some of these can even be unlocked without a key or picking them, if you're on the right side. So while picking a lock might not give you complete control over it, it's not an automatic guarantee that you'll have no control at all.
        – 8bittree
        10 hours ago




        @SevenSidedDie Real life has many designs of locks that can be locked without a key, whether simply by closing the door, or rotating a little switch, or pressing a button. And yes, all of these can be done with purely mechanical designs. Some of these can even be unlocked without a key or picking them, if you're on the right side. So while picking a lock might not give you complete control over it, it's not an automatic guarantee that you'll have no control at all.
        – 8bittree
        10 hours ago











        13














        If there is no downside to breaking down a door compared to unlocking it, there is no point in choosing one over the other (except for ability to do either)



        Unlocking a door is quiet, and does not necessarily alert the next room of monsters that the players have arrived. Breaking down a door is a messy and loud affair. If any subterfuge is needed for players (be it in a noble's house or a dungeon) then breaking down the door is obviously not the best idea.



        If there are no consequences for actions the players take, then they can do whatever they want with no fear of reprisal.



        A possible solution to players breaking down doors willy-nilly is by making such objects have a damage threshold that means below the damage value the door cannot be hurt at all. This is a possibly confusing mechanic to spring on your players, so mentioning it beforehand would likely be a good idea.






        share|improve this answer




























          13














          If there is no downside to breaking down a door compared to unlocking it, there is no point in choosing one over the other (except for ability to do either)



          Unlocking a door is quiet, and does not necessarily alert the next room of monsters that the players have arrived. Breaking down a door is a messy and loud affair. If any subterfuge is needed for players (be it in a noble's house or a dungeon) then breaking down the door is obviously not the best idea.



          If there are no consequences for actions the players take, then they can do whatever they want with no fear of reprisal.



          A possible solution to players breaking down doors willy-nilly is by making such objects have a damage threshold that means below the damage value the door cannot be hurt at all. This is a possibly confusing mechanic to spring on your players, so mentioning it beforehand would likely be a good idea.






          share|improve this answer


























            13












            13








            13






            If there is no downside to breaking down a door compared to unlocking it, there is no point in choosing one over the other (except for ability to do either)



            Unlocking a door is quiet, and does not necessarily alert the next room of monsters that the players have arrived. Breaking down a door is a messy and loud affair. If any subterfuge is needed for players (be it in a noble's house or a dungeon) then breaking down the door is obviously not the best idea.



            If there are no consequences for actions the players take, then they can do whatever they want with no fear of reprisal.



            A possible solution to players breaking down doors willy-nilly is by making such objects have a damage threshold that means below the damage value the door cannot be hurt at all. This is a possibly confusing mechanic to spring on your players, so mentioning it beforehand would likely be a good idea.






            share|improve this answer














            If there is no downside to breaking down a door compared to unlocking it, there is no point in choosing one over the other (except for ability to do either)



            Unlocking a door is quiet, and does not necessarily alert the next room of monsters that the players have arrived. Breaking down a door is a messy and loud affair. If any subterfuge is needed for players (be it in a noble's house or a dungeon) then breaking down the door is obviously not the best idea.



            If there are no consequences for actions the players take, then they can do whatever they want with no fear of reprisal.



            A possible solution to players breaking down doors willy-nilly is by making such objects have a damage threshold that means below the damage value the door cannot be hurt at all. This is a possibly confusing mechanic to spring on your players, so mentioning it beforehand would likely be a good idea.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 2 days ago

























            answered 2 days ago









            L0neGamer

            1,181216




            1,181216























                12














                We can look to real life to gain some insight:



                Bank vaults in the US are rated to 4 different possibilities against forced entry:





                • M 15 minutes

                • Class I 30 minutes

                • Class II 60 minutes

                • Class III 120 minutes




                Classified storage of national security secrets also have door certifications, the Class 5 vault doors being:





                • 20 man-hours against surreptitious entry.

                • 30 man-minutes against covert entry.

                • 10 man-minutes against forced entry.




                The door will only slow down a determined attacker, which is why there are also provisions for other required security:





                1. For Top Secret information stored outside the United States, one or more of the following supplemental security controls is
                  required:

                  (a) The area that houses the security container or vault
                  will be subject to the continuous protection of guard or duty
                  personnel;

                  (b) Guard or duty personnel will inspect the security
                  container or vault at least once every 2 hours; or

                  (c) The security
                  container or vault will be controlled by an alarm system to which a
                  force will respond in person within 15 minutes.




                Bottom line: if modern national security vaults and banks can be breached in a matter of minutes via force, it's pretty likely dungeon doors and chests can as well. Add other security features if you want to truly secure something... and if they've killed all the guards, it's pretty reasonable to assume they can bang their way into almost anything if they want to take the time to do it.



                The way our DM has protected chests in the past is having a manufacturer's notice in common that reads:




                WARNING: Thank you for buying Thurlin's Secure Storage: this chest contains an anti-tamper acid ampule. Excessive movement or lifting of the lid without disengaging the lock will damage or destroy the contents of the chest.




                and when we got used to breaking into those we ran into a:




                WARNING: this chest contains explosive run... - boom







                share|improve this answer

















                • 1




                  I am reminded of the original Castle Wolfenstein game for Apple ][ where you could shoot chests to open them more quickly, unless they contained explosives....
                  – Robert Columbia
                  2 days ago
















                12














                We can look to real life to gain some insight:



                Bank vaults in the US are rated to 4 different possibilities against forced entry:





                • M 15 minutes

                • Class I 30 minutes

                • Class II 60 minutes

                • Class III 120 minutes




                Classified storage of national security secrets also have door certifications, the Class 5 vault doors being:





                • 20 man-hours against surreptitious entry.

                • 30 man-minutes against covert entry.

                • 10 man-minutes against forced entry.




                The door will only slow down a determined attacker, which is why there are also provisions for other required security:





                1. For Top Secret information stored outside the United States, one or more of the following supplemental security controls is
                  required:

                  (a) The area that houses the security container or vault
                  will be subject to the continuous protection of guard or duty
                  personnel;

                  (b) Guard or duty personnel will inspect the security
                  container or vault at least once every 2 hours; or

                  (c) The security
                  container or vault will be controlled by an alarm system to which a
                  force will respond in person within 15 minutes.




                Bottom line: if modern national security vaults and banks can be breached in a matter of minutes via force, it's pretty likely dungeon doors and chests can as well. Add other security features if you want to truly secure something... and if they've killed all the guards, it's pretty reasonable to assume they can bang their way into almost anything if they want to take the time to do it.



                The way our DM has protected chests in the past is having a manufacturer's notice in common that reads:




                WARNING: Thank you for buying Thurlin's Secure Storage: this chest contains an anti-tamper acid ampule. Excessive movement or lifting of the lid without disengaging the lock will damage or destroy the contents of the chest.




                and when we got used to breaking into those we ran into a:




                WARNING: this chest contains explosive run... - boom







                share|improve this answer

















                • 1




                  I am reminded of the original Castle Wolfenstein game for Apple ][ where you could shoot chests to open them more quickly, unless they contained explosives....
                  – Robert Columbia
                  2 days ago














                12












                12








                12






                We can look to real life to gain some insight:



                Bank vaults in the US are rated to 4 different possibilities against forced entry:





                • M 15 minutes

                • Class I 30 minutes

                • Class II 60 minutes

                • Class III 120 minutes




                Classified storage of national security secrets also have door certifications, the Class 5 vault doors being:





                • 20 man-hours against surreptitious entry.

                • 30 man-minutes against covert entry.

                • 10 man-minutes against forced entry.




                The door will only slow down a determined attacker, which is why there are also provisions for other required security:





                1. For Top Secret information stored outside the United States, one or more of the following supplemental security controls is
                  required:

                  (a) The area that houses the security container or vault
                  will be subject to the continuous protection of guard or duty
                  personnel;

                  (b) Guard or duty personnel will inspect the security
                  container or vault at least once every 2 hours; or

                  (c) The security
                  container or vault will be controlled by an alarm system to which a
                  force will respond in person within 15 minutes.




                Bottom line: if modern national security vaults and banks can be breached in a matter of minutes via force, it's pretty likely dungeon doors and chests can as well. Add other security features if you want to truly secure something... and if they've killed all the guards, it's pretty reasonable to assume they can bang their way into almost anything if they want to take the time to do it.



                The way our DM has protected chests in the past is having a manufacturer's notice in common that reads:




                WARNING: Thank you for buying Thurlin's Secure Storage: this chest contains an anti-tamper acid ampule. Excessive movement or lifting of the lid without disengaging the lock will damage or destroy the contents of the chest.




                and when we got used to breaking into those we ran into a:




                WARNING: this chest contains explosive run... - boom







                share|improve this answer












                We can look to real life to gain some insight:



                Bank vaults in the US are rated to 4 different possibilities against forced entry:





                • M 15 minutes

                • Class I 30 minutes

                • Class II 60 minutes

                • Class III 120 minutes




                Classified storage of national security secrets also have door certifications, the Class 5 vault doors being:





                • 20 man-hours against surreptitious entry.

                • 30 man-minutes against covert entry.

                • 10 man-minutes against forced entry.




                The door will only slow down a determined attacker, which is why there are also provisions for other required security:





                1. For Top Secret information stored outside the United States, one or more of the following supplemental security controls is
                  required:

                  (a) The area that houses the security container or vault
                  will be subject to the continuous protection of guard or duty
                  personnel;

                  (b) Guard or duty personnel will inspect the security
                  container or vault at least once every 2 hours; or

                  (c) The security
                  container or vault will be controlled by an alarm system to which a
                  force will respond in person within 15 minutes.




                Bottom line: if modern national security vaults and banks can be breached in a matter of minutes via force, it's pretty likely dungeon doors and chests can as well. Add other security features if you want to truly secure something... and if they've killed all the guards, it's pretty reasonable to assume they can bang their way into almost anything if they want to take the time to do it.



                The way our DM has protected chests in the past is having a manufacturer's notice in common that reads:




                WARNING: Thank you for buying Thurlin's Secure Storage: this chest contains an anti-tamper acid ampule. Excessive movement or lifting of the lid without disengaging the lock will damage or destroy the contents of the chest.




                and when we got used to breaking into those we ran into a:




                WARNING: this chest contains explosive run... - boom








                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 2 days ago









                TemporalWolf

                64728




                64728








                • 1




                  I am reminded of the original Castle Wolfenstein game for Apple ][ where you could shoot chests to open them more quickly, unless they contained explosives....
                  – Robert Columbia
                  2 days ago














                • 1




                  I am reminded of the original Castle Wolfenstein game for Apple ][ where you could shoot chests to open them more quickly, unless they contained explosives....
                  – Robert Columbia
                  2 days ago








                1




                1




                I am reminded of the original Castle Wolfenstein game for Apple ][ where you could shoot chests to open them more quickly, unless they contained explosives....
                – Robert Columbia
                2 days ago




                I am reminded of the original Castle Wolfenstein game for Apple ][ where you could shoot chests to open them more quickly, unless they contained explosives....
                – Robert Columbia
                2 days ago











                11














                Everyone is talking about doors, but you also ask about chests. If you break open a chest, in Real Life, there's a fair chance that whatever's inside will get damaged, right? If there's something fragile inside, it might get smashed. If there's liquid inside, (inside a fragile bottle, for instance,) it might stain other items in the chest, for example making a precious scroll unreadable. You could introduce consequences to breaking the chest open instead of unlocking it.






                share|improve this answer





















                • Netback does this well. Kick a door and you attract monsters with noise. Kick a chest to force the lock and there is a good chance of destroying any potion or other fragile item inside. Kick a shopkeeper's door and if you're lucky he will demand you pay for it, or else will just attack.
                  – Adam Eberbach
                  yesterday










                • This is the exact example I would give: collateral damage. As for instance in an early Glass Cannon Podcast episode where the group comes across a locked chest: As it turns out, attempting to break the lock would result in a 75% risk of breaking each item within.
                  – KlaymenDK
                  14 hours ago






                • 1




                  Sounds like a good place to keep a fragile bottle of Greek fire.
                  – GrandmasterB
                  7 hours ago
















                11














                Everyone is talking about doors, but you also ask about chests. If you break open a chest, in Real Life, there's a fair chance that whatever's inside will get damaged, right? If there's something fragile inside, it might get smashed. If there's liquid inside, (inside a fragile bottle, for instance,) it might stain other items in the chest, for example making a precious scroll unreadable. You could introduce consequences to breaking the chest open instead of unlocking it.






                share|improve this answer





















                • Netback does this well. Kick a door and you attract monsters with noise. Kick a chest to force the lock and there is a good chance of destroying any potion or other fragile item inside. Kick a shopkeeper's door and if you're lucky he will demand you pay for it, or else will just attack.
                  – Adam Eberbach
                  yesterday










                • This is the exact example I would give: collateral damage. As for instance in an early Glass Cannon Podcast episode where the group comes across a locked chest: As it turns out, attempting to break the lock would result in a 75% risk of breaking each item within.
                  – KlaymenDK
                  14 hours ago






                • 1




                  Sounds like a good place to keep a fragile bottle of Greek fire.
                  – GrandmasterB
                  7 hours ago














                11












                11








                11






                Everyone is talking about doors, but you also ask about chests. If you break open a chest, in Real Life, there's a fair chance that whatever's inside will get damaged, right? If there's something fragile inside, it might get smashed. If there's liquid inside, (inside a fragile bottle, for instance,) it might stain other items in the chest, for example making a precious scroll unreadable. You could introduce consequences to breaking the chest open instead of unlocking it.






                share|improve this answer












                Everyone is talking about doors, but you also ask about chests. If you break open a chest, in Real Life, there's a fair chance that whatever's inside will get damaged, right? If there's something fragile inside, it might get smashed. If there's liquid inside, (inside a fragile bottle, for instance,) it might stain other items in the chest, for example making a precious scroll unreadable. You could introduce consequences to breaking the chest open instead of unlocking it.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 2 days ago









                Galastel

                3388




                3388












                • Netback does this well. Kick a door and you attract monsters with noise. Kick a chest to force the lock and there is a good chance of destroying any potion or other fragile item inside. Kick a shopkeeper's door and if you're lucky he will demand you pay for it, or else will just attack.
                  – Adam Eberbach
                  yesterday










                • This is the exact example I would give: collateral damage. As for instance in an early Glass Cannon Podcast episode where the group comes across a locked chest: As it turns out, attempting to break the lock would result in a 75% risk of breaking each item within.
                  – KlaymenDK
                  14 hours ago






                • 1




                  Sounds like a good place to keep a fragile bottle of Greek fire.
                  – GrandmasterB
                  7 hours ago


















                • Netback does this well. Kick a door and you attract monsters with noise. Kick a chest to force the lock and there is a good chance of destroying any potion or other fragile item inside. Kick a shopkeeper's door and if you're lucky he will demand you pay for it, or else will just attack.
                  – Adam Eberbach
                  yesterday










                • This is the exact example I would give: collateral damage. As for instance in an early Glass Cannon Podcast episode where the group comes across a locked chest: As it turns out, attempting to break the lock would result in a 75% risk of breaking each item within.
                  – KlaymenDK
                  14 hours ago






                • 1




                  Sounds like a good place to keep a fragile bottle of Greek fire.
                  – GrandmasterB
                  7 hours ago
















                Netback does this well. Kick a door and you attract monsters with noise. Kick a chest to force the lock and there is a good chance of destroying any potion or other fragile item inside. Kick a shopkeeper's door and if you're lucky he will demand you pay for it, or else will just attack.
                – Adam Eberbach
                yesterday




                Netback does this well. Kick a door and you attract monsters with noise. Kick a chest to force the lock and there is a good chance of destroying any potion or other fragile item inside. Kick a shopkeeper's door and if you're lucky he will demand you pay for it, or else will just attack.
                – Adam Eberbach
                yesterday












                This is the exact example I would give: collateral damage. As for instance in an early Glass Cannon Podcast episode where the group comes across a locked chest: As it turns out, attempting to break the lock would result in a 75% risk of breaking each item within.
                – KlaymenDK
                14 hours ago




                This is the exact example I would give: collateral damage. As for instance in an early Glass Cannon Podcast episode where the group comes across a locked chest: As it turns out, attempting to break the lock would result in a 75% risk of breaking each item within.
                – KlaymenDK
                14 hours ago




                1




                1




                Sounds like a good place to keep a fragile bottle of Greek fire.
                – GrandmasterB
                7 hours ago




                Sounds like a good place to keep a fragile bottle of Greek fire.
                – GrandmasterB
                7 hours ago











                5














                Oops, I broke my axe



                Weapons used to destroy a door or chest could be damaged in the process...



                I don't think there's any rules about weapons taking damage normally (except some monsters causing corrosion), but it's reasonable that a nice sharp axe or sword could be damaged smashing up stuff made of wood & metal.



                A "smashing" weapon like a hammer, or a crowbar specifically might have no problems, but anything else could be fair game.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.














                • 1




                  This is a very good point. If you are 8 levels down in a dungeon, is it really wise to be bashing things open with the sword you rely on for protection?
                  – GrandmasterB
                  7 hours ago
















                5














                Oops, I broke my axe



                Weapons used to destroy a door or chest could be damaged in the process...



                I don't think there's any rules about weapons taking damage normally (except some monsters causing corrosion), but it's reasonable that a nice sharp axe or sword could be damaged smashing up stuff made of wood & metal.



                A "smashing" weapon like a hammer, or a crowbar specifically might have no problems, but anything else could be fair game.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.














                • 1




                  This is a very good point. If you are 8 levels down in a dungeon, is it really wise to be bashing things open with the sword you rely on for protection?
                  – GrandmasterB
                  7 hours ago














                5












                5








                5






                Oops, I broke my axe



                Weapons used to destroy a door or chest could be damaged in the process...



                I don't think there's any rules about weapons taking damage normally (except some monsters causing corrosion), but it's reasonable that a nice sharp axe or sword could be damaged smashing up stuff made of wood & metal.



                A "smashing" weapon like a hammer, or a crowbar specifically might have no problems, but anything else could be fair game.






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                Oops, I broke my axe



                Weapons used to destroy a door or chest could be damaged in the process...



                I don't think there's any rules about weapons taking damage normally (except some monsters causing corrosion), but it's reasonable that a nice sharp axe or sword could be damaged smashing up stuff made of wood & metal.



                A "smashing" weapon like a hammer, or a crowbar specifically might have no problems, but anything else could be fair game.







                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer






                New contributor




                Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                answered 2 days ago









                Xen2050

                1513




                1513




                New contributor




                Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                New contributor





                Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                Xen2050 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.








                • 1




                  This is a very good point. If you are 8 levels down in a dungeon, is it really wise to be bashing things open with the sword you rely on for protection?
                  – GrandmasterB
                  7 hours ago














                • 1




                  This is a very good point. If you are 8 levels down in a dungeon, is it really wise to be bashing things open with the sword you rely on for protection?
                  – GrandmasterB
                  7 hours ago








                1




                1




                This is a very good point. If you are 8 levels down in a dungeon, is it really wise to be bashing things open with the sword you rely on for protection?
                – GrandmasterB
                7 hours ago




                This is a very good point. If you are 8 levels down in a dungeon, is it really wise to be bashing things open with the sword you rely on for protection?
                – GrandmasterB
                7 hours ago











                4














                Summary: A door is a tactical (sometimes, strategic) element with plenty of uses and a cost to manipulating it. Break it if you are in a hurry and enemies know of you, or if there are no enemies, while leave it functional if there is a chance of using it against your enemies.



                Chests are similar but less complicated.



                Breaking doors makes noise



                Noise alerts creatures. The usual rate of wandering monster checks in large dungeons with mobile inhabitants is, for me, once every ten minutes, with 1/6 chance of encounter. I also roll after noise occurances, such as combat or breaking down doors. And, of course, any nearby creatures will often hear the noise automatically or with good chance. If breaking in takes significant time, that also triggers a wandering monster roll or moves the next one closer.



                This is not an issue in places without wandering inhabitants, such as very small dungeons or ancient sealed tombs.



                A broken door is a sign of forced entry



                This is an issue in civilized or organized dungeons, such as cities and fortresses, or when trying to rob the ancient mage's tower without the ancient mage figuring it out.



                Dead enemies everywhere is also a sign of forced entry, so this might not matter too much in many situations.



                Doors control the movement of others, too



                Wolves and unarmed zombies will have very hard time getting through sturdy wooden doors, even given time. Many enemies will spend at least a moment to penetrate a door, and might not be clever enough to open one. Doors can be barred for further security. In a typical dungeon environment with some animals or weaker creatures, doors can be used for good benefit.



                Also, if one wants to rest within a dungeon, closing and barring a door creates a nice alarm system and might prevent some wandering monsters from reaching you at all.



                Doors control vision (and sound a bit)



                Controlling vision allows hiding and resting and makes ranged attacks a lot harder. Hiding behind a door to run away or surprise someone is a classic maneuver.



                Not everything breaks doors



                A rondel or a sword is not the proper tool for breaking a door - you would get a dull edge or a small hole, which is often not very useful. It would be a waste of a battle axe, too - use a woodcutter's axe or something similar. The rules of D&D 5 leave simulating such concerns on the dungeon master, whose duty it is to keep the game world credible. (We prefer to share this duty among the entire gaming group.)



                The matter of chests



                Chests protect things. Breaking a chest might break those things, or you might want to have a nice chest for other purposes, if it can be carried. The concerns of noise are there, as are leaving tracks.






                share|improve this answer


























                  4














                  Summary: A door is a tactical (sometimes, strategic) element with plenty of uses and a cost to manipulating it. Break it if you are in a hurry and enemies know of you, or if there are no enemies, while leave it functional if there is a chance of using it against your enemies.



                  Chests are similar but less complicated.



                  Breaking doors makes noise



                  Noise alerts creatures. The usual rate of wandering monster checks in large dungeons with mobile inhabitants is, for me, once every ten minutes, with 1/6 chance of encounter. I also roll after noise occurances, such as combat or breaking down doors. And, of course, any nearby creatures will often hear the noise automatically or with good chance. If breaking in takes significant time, that also triggers a wandering monster roll or moves the next one closer.



                  This is not an issue in places without wandering inhabitants, such as very small dungeons or ancient sealed tombs.



                  A broken door is a sign of forced entry



                  This is an issue in civilized or organized dungeons, such as cities and fortresses, or when trying to rob the ancient mage's tower without the ancient mage figuring it out.



                  Dead enemies everywhere is also a sign of forced entry, so this might not matter too much in many situations.



                  Doors control the movement of others, too



                  Wolves and unarmed zombies will have very hard time getting through sturdy wooden doors, even given time. Many enemies will spend at least a moment to penetrate a door, and might not be clever enough to open one. Doors can be barred for further security. In a typical dungeon environment with some animals or weaker creatures, doors can be used for good benefit.



                  Also, if one wants to rest within a dungeon, closing and barring a door creates a nice alarm system and might prevent some wandering monsters from reaching you at all.



                  Doors control vision (and sound a bit)



                  Controlling vision allows hiding and resting and makes ranged attacks a lot harder. Hiding behind a door to run away or surprise someone is a classic maneuver.



                  Not everything breaks doors



                  A rondel or a sword is not the proper tool for breaking a door - you would get a dull edge or a small hole, which is often not very useful. It would be a waste of a battle axe, too - use a woodcutter's axe or something similar. The rules of D&D 5 leave simulating such concerns on the dungeon master, whose duty it is to keep the game world credible. (We prefer to share this duty among the entire gaming group.)



                  The matter of chests



                  Chests protect things. Breaking a chest might break those things, or you might want to have a nice chest for other purposes, if it can be carried. The concerns of noise are there, as are leaving tracks.






                  share|improve this answer
























                    4












                    4








                    4






                    Summary: A door is a tactical (sometimes, strategic) element with plenty of uses and a cost to manipulating it. Break it if you are in a hurry and enemies know of you, or if there are no enemies, while leave it functional if there is a chance of using it against your enemies.



                    Chests are similar but less complicated.



                    Breaking doors makes noise



                    Noise alerts creatures. The usual rate of wandering monster checks in large dungeons with mobile inhabitants is, for me, once every ten minutes, with 1/6 chance of encounter. I also roll after noise occurances, such as combat or breaking down doors. And, of course, any nearby creatures will often hear the noise automatically or with good chance. If breaking in takes significant time, that also triggers a wandering monster roll or moves the next one closer.



                    This is not an issue in places without wandering inhabitants, such as very small dungeons or ancient sealed tombs.



                    A broken door is a sign of forced entry



                    This is an issue in civilized or organized dungeons, such as cities and fortresses, or when trying to rob the ancient mage's tower without the ancient mage figuring it out.



                    Dead enemies everywhere is also a sign of forced entry, so this might not matter too much in many situations.



                    Doors control the movement of others, too



                    Wolves and unarmed zombies will have very hard time getting through sturdy wooden doors, even given time. Many enemies will spend at least a moment to penetrate a door, and might not be clever enough to open one. Doors can be barred for further security. In a typical dungeon environment with some animals or weaker creatures, doors can be used for good benefit.



                    Also, if one wants to rest within a dungeon, closing and barring a door creates a nice alarm system and might prevent some wandering monsters from reaching you at all.



                    Doors control vision (and sound a bit)



                    Controlling vision allows hiding and resting and makes ranged attacks a lot harder. Hiding behind a door to run away or surprise someone is a classic maneuver.



                    Not everything breaks doors



                    A rondel or a sword is not the proper tool for breaking a door - you would get a dull edge or a small hole, which is often not very useful. It would be a waste of a battle axe, too - use a woodcutter's axe or something similar. The rules of D&D 5 leave simulating such concerns on the dungeon master, whose duty it is to keep the game world credible. (We prefer to share this duty among the entire gaming group.)



                    The matter of chests



                    Chests protect things. Breaking a chest might break those things, or you might want to have a nice chest for other purposes, if it can be carried. The concerns of noise are there, as are leaving tracks.






                    share|improve this answer












                    Summary: A door is a tactical (sometimes, strategic) element with plenty of uses and a cost to manipulating it. Break it if you are in a hurry and enemies know of you, or if there are no enemies, while leave it functional if there is a chance of using it against your enemies.



                    Chests are similar but less complicated.



                    Breaking doors makes noise



                    Noise alerts creatures. The usual rate of wandering monster checks in large dungeons with mobile inhabitants is, for me, once every ten minutes, with 1/6 chance of encounter. I also roll after noise occurances, such as combat or breaking down doors. And, of course, any nearby creatures will often hear the noise automatically or with good chance. If breaking in takes significant time, that also triggers a wandering monster roll or moves the next one closer.



                    This is not an issue in places without wandering inhabitants, such as very small dungeons or ancient sealed tombs.



                    A broken door is a sign of forced entry



                    This is an issue in civilized or organized dungeons, such as cities and fortresses, or when trying to rob the ancient mage's tower without the ancient mage figuring it out.



                    Dead enemies everywhere is also a sign of forced entry, so this might not matter too much in many situations.



                    Doors control the movement of others, too



                    Wolves and unarmed zombies will have very hard time getting through sturdy wooden doors, even given time. Many enemies will spend at least a moment to penetrate a door, and might not be clever enough to open one. Doors can be barred for further security. In a typical dungeon environment with some animals or weaker creatures, doors can be used for good benefit.



                    Also, if one wants to rest within a dungeon, closing and barring a door creates a nice alarm system and might prevent some wandering monsters from reaching you at all.



                    Doors control vision (and sound a bit)



                    Controlling vision allows hiding and resting and makes ranged attacks a lot harder. Hiding behind a door to run away or surprise someone is a classic maneuver.



                    Not everything breaks doors



                    A rondel or a sword is not the proper tool for breaking a door - you would get a dull edge or a small hole, which is often not very useful. It would be a waste of a battle axe, too - use a woodcutter's axe or something similar. The rules of D&D 5 leave simulating such concerns on the dungeon master, whose duty it is to keep the game world credible. (We prefer to share this duty among the entire gaming group.)



                    The matter of chests



                    Chests protect things. Breaking a chest might break those things, or you might want to have a nice chest for other purposes, if it can be carried. The concerns of noise are there, as are leaving tracks.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered yesterday









                    Thanuir

                    4,78232357




                    4,78232357























                        3














                        The lock may actually defeat them




                        4-5 guys with a crowbar will eventually open any door/chest that's not magically locked.




                        Maybe.



                        I no longer have a reference to the article, but a few years ago there were a couple of thieves that figured out they could steal a freestanding ATM by tying a heavy chain around it and dragging it down the road behind their truck.

                        After a certain distance most of the pieces came off, however the steel reinforced part that contained the money was intact. At that point they lifted the remaining piece into the truck and drove off.

                        (The extra pieces and the scrape marks gouged in the road were easy to follow to that point.)



                        At some point after that, they gave up and tossed it into a creek where it was found by the authorities.

                        It was bent out of shape, but it still had all of the money inside it.



                        Maybe they were too dumb to steal a blowtorch, or maybe they were smart enough to realize that the blowtorch would burn the paper money inside... I don't know which.






                        share|improve this answer




























                          3














                          The lock may actually defeat them




                          4-5 guys with a crowbar will eventually open any door/chest that's not magically locked.




                          Maybe.



                          I no longer have a reference to the article, but a few years ago there were a couple of thieves that figured out they could steal a freestanding ATM by tying a heavy chain around it and dragging it down the road behind their truck.

                          After a certain distance most of the pieces came off, however the steel reinforced part that contained the money was intact. At that point they lifted the remaining piece into the truck and drove off.

                          (The extra pieces and the scrape marks gouged in the road were easy to follow to that point.)



                          At some point after that, they gave up and tossed it into a creek where it was found by the authorities.

                          It was bent out of shape, but it still had all of the money inside it.



                          Maybe they were too dumb to steal a blowtorch, or maybe they were smart enough to realize that the blowtorch would burn the paper money inside... I don't know which.






                          share|improve this answer


























                            3












                            3








                            3






                            The lock may actually defeat them




                            4-5 guys with a crowbar will eventually open any door/chest that's not magically locked.




                            Maybe.



                            I no longer have a reference to the article, but a few years ago there were a couple of thieves that figured out they could steal a freestanding ATM by tying a heavy chain around it and dragging it down the road behind their truck.

                            After a certain distance most of the pieces came off, however the steel reinforced part that contained the money was intact. At that point they lifted the remaining piece into the truck and drove off.

                            (The extra pieces and the scrape marks gouged in the road were easy to follow to that point.)



                            At some point after that, they gave up and tossed it into a creek where it was found by the authorities.

                            It was bent out of shape, but it still had all of the money inside it.



                            Maybe they were too dumb to steal a blowtorch, or maybe they were smart enough to realize that the blowtorch would burn the paper money inside... I don't know which.






                            share|improve this answer














                            The lock may actually defeat them




                            4-5 guys with a crowbar will eventually open any door/chest that's not magically locked.




                            Maybe.



                            I no longer have a reference to the article, but a few years ago there were a couple of thieves that figured out they could steal a freestanding ATM by tying a heavy chain around it and dragging it down the road behind their truck.

                            After a certain distance most of the pieces came off, however the steel reinforced part that contained the money was intact. At that point they lifted the remaining piece into the truck and drove off.

                            (The extra pieces and the scrape marks gouged in the road were easy to follow to that point.)



                            At some point after that, they gave up and tossed it into a creek where it was found by the authorities.

                            It was bent out of shape, but it still had all of the money inside it.



                            Maybe they were too dumb to steal a blowtorch, or maybe they were smart enough to realize that the blowtorch would burn the paper money inside... I don't know which.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 2 days ago









                            SevenSidedDie

                            205k30657934




                            205k30657934










                            answered 2 days ago









                            J. Chris Compton

                            1834




                            1834






















                                Alex Parvan is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










                                draft saved

                                draft discarded


















                                Alex Parvan is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













                                Alex Parvan is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                                Alex Parvan is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





                                Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


                                Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function () {
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f138193%2fwhats-the-point-of-having-a-locked-door-if-the-players-can-just-destroy-it%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                                }
                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                Popular posts from this blog

                                "Incorrect syntax near the keyword 'ON'. (on update cascade, on delete cascade,)

                                If I really need a card on my start hand, how many mulligans make sense? [duplicate]

                                Alcedinidae