Is it appropriate to request that the department hire a female faculty member?
Our department is currently hiring a new faculty member. At the moment, the faculty gender ratio in our department is very skewed, even for our field. I believe that this has a negative impact on the department environment.
There is general consensus among the grad students on which candidate we support. This candidate is highly qualified in terms of their research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into STEM. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
EDIT: Thank you for all of the answers, it certainly gives us a lot to think about. I would like to follow up on a couple things.
- When I say something like "we think the department should hire a woman", I don't strictly mean that the next faculty should be a woman regardless of any other factors. Rather, I mean that the department should hire someone who will be able to relate to the issues women face in academia and STEM, and help champion female students in our department. The average woman will be in a better place to do this than the average man, so perhaps I should have been a bit more precise about what I meant in the original post.
- While "diversity programs" designed to get underrepresented minorities into stem are discriminatory in the strictest sense of the word, they are in place to address systemic injustices which have existed for a very long time. The hypothetical examples of discriminating against men and women don't account for the fact that many gender/race imbalances in academia exist because of previous institutional discrimination.
ethics job-search gender
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add a comment |
Our department is currently hiring a new faculty member. At the moment, the faculty gender ratio in our department is very skewed, even for our field. I believe that this has a negative impact on the department environment.
There is general consensus among the grad students on which candidate we support. This candidate is highly qualified in terms of their research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into STEM. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
EDIT: Thank you for all of the answers, it certainly gives us a lot to think about. I would like to follow up on a couple things.
- When I say something like "we think the department should hire a woman", I don't strictly mean that the next faculty should be a woman regardless of any other factors. Rather, I mean that the department should hire someone who will be able to relate to the issues women face in academia and STEM, and help champion female students in our department. The average woman will be in a better place to do this than the average man, so perhaps I should have been a bit more precise about what I meant in the original post.
- While "diversity programs" designed to get underrepresented minorities into stem are discriminatory in the strictest sense of the word, they are in place to address systemic injustices which have existed for a very long time. The hypothetical examples of discriminating against men and women don't account for the fact that many gender/race imbalances in academia exist because of previous institutional discrimination.
ethics job-search gender
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Controversial Post — You may use comments ONLY to suggest improvements. You may use answers ONLY to provide a solution to the specific question asked above. Moderators will remove debates, arguments or opinions without notice. See: Why do the moderators move comments to chat and how should I behave afterwards?
7
could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?
– aaaaaa
yesterday
1
Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.
– Wrzlprmft♦
20 hours ago
1
You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.
– jpmc26
12 hours ago
+1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.
– Keith
51 mins ago
add a comment |
Our department is currently hiring a new faculty member. At the moment, the faculty gender ratio in our department is very skewed, even for our field. I believe that this has a negative impact on the department environment.
There is general consensus among the grad students on which candidate we support. This candidate is highly qualified in terms of their research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into STEM. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
EDIT: Thank you for all of the answers, it certainly gives us a lot to think about. I would like to follow up on a couple things.
- When I say something like "we think the department should hire a woman", I don't strictly mean that the next faculty should be a woman regardless of any other factors. Rather, I mean that the department should hire someone who will be able to relate to the issues women face in academia and STEM, and help champion female students in our department. The average woman will be in a better place to do this than the average man, so perhaps I should have been a bit more precise about what I meant in the original post.
- While "diversity programs" designed to get underrepresented minorities into stem are discriminatory in the strictest sense of the word, they are in place to address systemic injustices which have existed for a very long time. The hypothetical examples of discriminating against men and women don't account for the fact that many gender/race imbalances in academia exist because of previous institutional discrimination.
ethics job-search gender
New contributor
Our department is currently hiring a new faculty member. At the moment, the faculty gender ratio in our department is very skewed, even for our field. I believe that this has a negative impact on the department environment.
There is general consensus among the grad students on which candidate we support. This candidate is highly qualified in terms of their research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into STEM. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
EDIT: Thank you for all of the answers, it certainly gives us a lot to think about. I would like to follow up on a couple things.
- When I say something like "we think the department should hire a woman", I don't strictly mean that the next faculty should be a woman regardless of any other factors. Rather, I mean that the department should hire someone who will be able to relate to the issues women face in academia and STEM, and help champion female students in our department. The average woman will be in a better place to do this than the average man, so perhaps I should have been a bit more precise about what I meant in the original post.
- While "diversity programs" designed to get underrepresented minorities into stem are discriminatory in the strictest sense of the word, they are in place to address systemic injustices which have existed for a very long time. The hypothetical examples of discriminating against men and women don't account for the fact that many gender/race imbalances in academia exist because of previous institutional discrimination.
ethics job-search gender
ethics job-search gender
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Controversial Post — You may use comments ONLY to suggest improvements. You may use answers ONLY to provide a solution to the specific question asked above. Moderators will remove debates, arguments or opinions without notice. See: Why do the moderators move comments to chat and how should I behave afterwards?
Controversial Post — You may use comments ONLY to suggest improvements. You may use answers ONLY to provide a solution to the specific question asked above. Moderators will remove debates, arguments or opinions without notice. See: Why do the moderators move comments to chat and how should I behave afterwards?
7
could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?
– aaaaaa
yesterday
1
Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.
– Wrzlprmft♦
20 hours ago
1
You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.
– jpmc26
12 hours ago
+1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.
– Keith
51 mins ago
add a comment |
7
could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?
– aaaaaa
yesterday
1
Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.
– Wrzlprmft♦
20 hours ago
1
You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.
– jpmc26
12 hours ago
+1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.
– Keith
51 mins ago
7
7
could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?
– aaaaaa
yesterday
could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?
– aaaaaa
yesterday
1
1
Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.
– Wrzlprmft♦
20 hours ago
Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.
– Wrzlprmft♦
20 hours ago
1
1
You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.
– jpmc26
12 hours ago
You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.
– jpmc26
12 hours ago
+1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.
– Keith
51 mins ago
+1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.
– Keith
51 mins ago
add a comment |
8 Answers
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the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.
This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.
The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.
I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.
Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.
37
The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.
– Elizabeth Henning
yesterday
11
@ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?
– Run like hell
yesterday
26
-1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.
– Kimball
yesterday
17
Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...
– paul garrett
yesterday
10
@paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.
– Run like hell
20 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.
So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.
11
I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???
– paul garrett
yesterday
7
@paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).
– Tobias Kildetoft
19 hours ago
2
@paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".
– Thomas
19 hours ago
1
There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.
– Debora Weber-Wulff
16 hours ago
6
The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.
– B. Goddard
6 hours ago
add a comment |
(The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)
I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.
Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.
I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.
3
I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
@BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.
– Dan Romik
6 hours ago
Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).
If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.
14
+1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
add a comment |
You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).
You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say
you should hire more women
what they mean (IMHO) is
check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases
For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)
And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"
add a comment |
There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:
- It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).
- The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.
- If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.
- Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)
If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.
If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.
add a comment |
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
underrepresented minorities.
Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.
What is the difference between the following two statements:
Hire him because we want a man in the position.
Hire her because we want a woman in the position.
Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.
Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.
New contributor
5
The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...
– paul garrett
yesterday
3
@paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.
– James Martin
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I can see this from two perspectives:
The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)
The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.
(As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)
New contributor
Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.
This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.
The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.
I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.
Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.
37
The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.
– Elizabeth Henning
yesterday
11
@ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?
– Run like hell
yesterday
26
-1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.
– Kimball
yesterday
17
Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...
– paul garrett
yesterday
10
@paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.
– Run like hell
20 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.
This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.
The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.
I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.
Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.
37
The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.
– Elizabeth Henning
yesterday
11
@ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?
– Run like hell
yesterday
26
-1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.
– Kimball
yesterday
17
Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...
– paul garrett
yesterday
10
@paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.
– Run like hell
20 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.
This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.
The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.
I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.
Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.
the new faculty should be female in order to help address the wildly disproportionate gender ratio in our current faculty.
This is not a good reason. Gender imbalance is fought educating everybody (males, females and any possible group) equally and hiring the best people, regardless of their gender, not choosing people by gender, that's sexism.
The candidate that we support is highly qualified in terms of research and teaching. Moreover, among all the candidates who have visited, they are the only one who have any experience with diversity initiatives and getting underrepresented groups into stem. This is very important to many of us, especially since the department is planning to add an undergraduate program in the near future.
These are very good reasons to hire someone, and reasons to be proud being hired for. If I was her I'd find disrespectful being hired first because I'm a woman and second because of these good reasons.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
Again, these may be good points to write in the open letter, but the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. She's a great candidate no matter what she has between her legs.
I find this logic of hiring women because they are women very sexist, towards both men and women. Towards men because they are at a disadvantage, towards women because you're treating them like kids, giving them a preferential route they don't need. Women can clearly be good enough to be hired just for their skills and not for their gender.
Fight for her to be hired if you think she's the best choice, write the letter and explain why she's the best choice, that she's better than the other candidates because she is better, not because she's a a lady.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Run like hellRun like hell
8011412
8011412
37
The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.
– Elizabeth Henning
yesterday
11
@ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?
– Run like hell
yesterday
26
-1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.
– Kimball
yesterday
17
Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...
– paul garrett
yesterday
10
@paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.
– Run like hell
20 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
37
The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.
– Elizabeth Henning
yesterday
11
@ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?
– Run like hell
yesterday
26
-1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.
– Kimball
yesterday
17
Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...
– paul garrett
yesterday
10
@paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.
– Run like hell
20 hours ago
37
37
The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.
– Elizabeth Henning
yesterday
The current gender imbalance exists because preferential treatment is given to men all along in one way or another. So pushing the question back to "educating the best people" raises the same issues.
– Elizabeth Henning
yesterday
11
11
@ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?
– Run like hell
yesterday
@ElizabethHenning I'm not sure I got what you mean so I won't answer, could you rephrase it please?
– Run like hell
yesterday
26
26
-1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.
– Kimball
yesterday
-1 hiring the best people, regardless of their gender - While I agree with this sentiment, there are many roles of a faculty member, and when there is a large gender imbalance, the gender of one candidate can put them in a better position to do things like serve as a role model and mentor to female students. Who is to say what is best? Gender aside, it's hard to decide who are the "best" candidates.
– Kimball
yesterday
17
17
Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...
– paul garrett
yesterday
Seconding @Kimball: the notion that there are "best" candidates is, at best, naive, and already laden with implicit biases, etc. In particular, it's not just about paper counts or any other easily quantifiable thing...
– paul garrett
yesterday
10
10
@paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.
– Run like hell
20 hours ago
@paulgarrett what if the notion is naive? Then hire randomly? Hire woman cause they are woman? Naive as it may be it's clearly what you should do,, try to understand what's the best choice and do it. Not doing so would be foolish.
– Run like hell
20 hours ago
|
show 14 more comments
If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.
So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.
11
I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???
– paul garrett
yesterday
7
@paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).
– Tobias Kildetoft
19 hours ago
2
@paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".
– Thomas
19 hours ago
1
There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.
– Debora Weber-Wulff
16 hours ago
6
The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.
– B. Goddard
6 hours ago
add a comment |
If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.
So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.
11
I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???
– paul garrett
yesterday
7
@paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).
– Tobias Kildetoft
19 hours ago
2
@paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".
– Thomas
19 hours ago
1
There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.
– Debora Weber-Wulff
16 hours ago
6
The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.
– B. Goddard
6 hours ago
add a comment |
If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.
So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.
If you write such an open letter and she is hired, there is a risk that rumor will spread that she was only hired because she is female and your open letter will help substantiate that rumor. Such rumors are harmful even if she was clearly hired on merit alone.
So consider the possibility that your letter does more harm than good. And, if you do write such a letter, make it clear that you think she is the most qualified candidate for the job, not that you think she should be hired for her gender.
edited 21 hours ago
answered yesterday
ThomasThomas
12.4k53046
12.4k53046
11
I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???
– paul garrett
yesterday
7
@paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).
– Tobias Kildetoft
19 hours ago
2
@paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".
– Thomas
19 hours ago
1
There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.
– Debora Weber-Wulff
16 hours ago
6
The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.
– B. Goddard
6 hours ago
add a comment |
11
I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???
– paul garrett
yesterday
7
@paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).
– Tobias Kildetoft
19 hours ago
2
@paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".
– Thomas
19 hours ago
1
There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.
– Debora Weber-Wulff
16 hours ago
6
The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.
– B. Goddard
6 hours ago
11
11
I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???
– paul garrett
yesterday
I'm not voting on this, but the point should be made that traditionally marginalized people will be suspect for being hired because ... they belong to a traditionally marginalized group, as an "affirmative action" candidate ... whether or not that plays a decisive role. So, then, ... ???
– paul garrett
yesterday
7
7
@paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).
– Tobias Kildetoft
19 hours ago
@paulgarrett That is true, but such suspicions tend to get magnified by the existence of anything like a letter of support as proposed in the question (people who want to point to a hire as having been biased love to have something concrete to point to...).
– Tobias Kildetoft
19 hours ago
2
2
@paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".
– Thomas
19 hours ago
@paulgarrett Yes, it's pretty hard to escape being labelled a diversity hire, but I imagine that the existence of such an open letter would make it much harder, especially if "open" means "easily googleable".
– Thomas
19 hours ago
1
1
There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.
– Debora Weber-Wulff
16 hours ago
There will be talk of this sort no matter what by jealous males. I would vote for writing the letter, but in a sober, rational manner.
– Debora Weber-Wulff
16 hours ago
6
6
The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.
– B. Goddard
6 hours ago
The risk is greater and a bit different. Without the letter, there is a risk of a rumor that she is a diversity hire. With the letter, the rumor will be true.
– B. Goddard
6 hours ago
add a comment |
(The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)
I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.
Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.
I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.
3
I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
@BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.
– Dan Romik
6 hours ago
Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
(The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)
I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.
Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.
I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.
3
I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
@BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.
– Dan Romik
6 hours ago
Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
(The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)
I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.
Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.
I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.
(The answer is written from a US perspective but may apply in certain other countries as well - hopefully this is of some relevance for OP.)
I am not a lawyer, but I’m pretty sure that what you are proposing (taking gender into account in hiring of faculty) would be illegal in any public university in my state, and I suspect it may run afoul of other US states’ and perhaps US federal legislation. See here and here for more information. I advise you to inform yourself of the laws and policies where you are before writing any letters.
Asking your department to do something that breaks the law is not only completely inappropriate, but it even risks leading a risk-averse administrator to choose (consciously or subconsciously) to take the opposite course of action from what you are proposing, just out of fear that they might later be accused of illegal discrimination, with your letter being used as evidence that they acted out of impure motives.
I do think it’s probably appropriate (under reasonable assumptions about your institution’s culture being a relatively normal and healthy one) for you and other graduate students to express your opinions to the department about which candidate is most qualified for the position, based on objective criteria that are unrelated to gender.
edited 6 hours ago
answered yesterday
Dan RomikDan Romik
85.4k21184283
85.4k21184283
3
I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
@BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.
– Dan Romik
6 hours ago
Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
3
I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
@BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.
– Dan Romik
6 hours ago
Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
3
3
I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
I think the legal prohibition also exists at the federal level. E.g., this EEOC page eeoc.gov/laws/practices says, "It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against a job applicant because of his or her race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity, sexual orientation, and pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." Basically the way these state and federal laws work is that they give a list of protected characteristics. Sex is always one of them, and the sexes are treated symmetrically.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
@BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.
– Dan Romik
6 hours ago
@BenCrowell thanks, that’s helpful.
– Dan Romik
6 hours ago
Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
Not sure why this got down votes - in the US this is an extremely big deal and you cannot advocate that someone be hired solely on the basis of a protected category.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).
If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.
14
+1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
add a comment |
It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).
If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.
14
+1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
add a comment |
It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).
If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.
It is certainly appropriate for you to express your desire for a particular candidate. In addition to writing to the chair of the department, it would also be helpful to contact the chair of the hiring committee (in case that individual is not the chair of the department).
If you are concerned about blowback for some reason, it would also be possible to write and submit the letter anonymously.
answered yesterday
aeismail♦aeismail
160k31374699
160k31374699
14
+1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
add a comment |
14
+1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
14
14
+1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.
– Buffy
yesterday
+1. You might want to suggest that the female students would be greatly aided by having one or more female mentors available in the faculty. I've known such appeals to be very effective, though it depends a lot on personalities, as you might expect.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
4
The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
The question doesn't ask whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate, it asks whether it's appropriate to support a certain candidate because she's female. This doesn't address the question.
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
add a comment |
You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).
You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say
you should hire more women
what they mean (IMHO) is
check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases
For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)
And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"
add a comment |
You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).
You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say
you should hire more women
what they mean (IMHO) is
check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases
For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)
And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"
add a comment |
You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).
You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say
you should hire more women
what they mean (IMHO) is
check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases
For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)
And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"
You can request that the process is thorough and, for example, short list is open. That is to prevent situation where candidates are all college buddies of some dude (because they went to all-male college or whatever).
You can influence the search processes, but hiring should be merit-based, and gender-neutral. However, in my opinion, "manels" appear because of lack of outreach and openness rather than "we couldn't find female candidates". So when people say
you should hire more women
what they mean (IMHO) is
check your process so that you don't follow implicit and explicit biases
For example, does your college provide day care? Or parental leave? Is there some controversial situation that is unresolved? (see what's up with my school)
And of course, you as students have (limited) power to nominate more candidates you deem high-quality. Nobody can stop you from telling your deans or professors "you should also consider X, Y, and Z because we love their work"
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
aaaaaaaaaaaa
1,000513
1,000513
add a comment |
add a comment |
There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:
- It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).
- The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.
- If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.
- Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)
If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.
If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.
add a comment |
There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:
- It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).
- The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.
- If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.
- Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)
If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.
If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.
add a comment |
There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:
- It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).
- The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.
- If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.
- Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)
If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.
If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.
There is general agreement that more women in STEM would be a good thing. There appears to be considerable disagreement about how to achieve this. However, I would like to address the idea of the open letter specifically.
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other underrepresented minorities.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
I may be slightly too risk averse, but I believe writing an open letter in support of a particular applicant (regardless of race, gender, etc) is ill advised for the following reasons:
- It is not clear if this candidate wants/needs your support. I presume the fact you are aware of her candidacy implies she has made the short list for the post on her own merits (if gender was a factor in this decision is unknown).
- The existence of such a letter and a (relatively) wide potential readership could be interpreted negatively by some groups. In my university it is not unusual for even trivial matters, such as the name of a student event, to make national news if it can be construed to be controversial. She may not want to have her name associated with such a potential controversy.
- If she is hired your letter may be pointed to as evidence of bias in the hiring process even if there was none. In an extreme case it could even lead to a lawsuit. The university would have to be very careful about how to respond to the letter and may decide it is safer to avoid the candidate.
- Your motivations for writing the letter may be questioned by some groups. Did you write it out of a genuine desire for more female faculty members or was she a friend/connection of yours and you're trying to manipulate the hiring process? (I think your intentions are genuine but others may see things differently)
If you would like to write an open letter advocating for more women academics in your department and highlighting the importance of making STEM more inclusive I think this could be a positive thing. But I don't think you should identify a particular candidate in the letter.
If you want to advocate for a particular candidate you should do so privately to the hiring committee. You could write a letter directly to the chair or discuss it with them in person. I also think this would be more effective.
edited 18 hours ago
answered 19 hours ago
mg4wmg4w
639310
639310
add a comment |
add a comment |
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
underrepresented minorities.
Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.
What is the difference between the following two statements:
Hire him because we want a man in the position.
Hire her because we want a woman in the position.
Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.
Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.
New contributor
5
The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...
– paul garrett
yesterday
3
@paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.
– James Martin
10 hours ago
add a comment |
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
underrepresented minorities.
Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.
What is the difference between the following two statements:
Hire him because we want a man in the position.
Hire her because we want a woman in the position.
Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.
Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.
New contributor
5
The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...
– paul garrett
yesterday
3
@paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.
– James Martin
10 hours ago
add a comment |
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
underrepresented minorities.
Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.
What is the difference between the following two statements:
Hire him because we want a man in the position.
Hire her because we want a woman in the position.
Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.
Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.
New contributor
We are planning to write an open letter to the department in support
of this candidate, citing her qualifications as someone who has worked
to make science a more inclusive place for women and other
underrepresented minorities.
Assuming that you value inclusivity (and most do, although some don't), then supporting her candidacy for her abilities and experience is entirely appropriate.
My main question is is whether it is appropriate for us to
additionally express our desire for a woman faculty member.
Well, that does depend on how willing you are to be called out for sexism.
What is the difference between the following two statements:
Hire him because we want a man in the position.
Hire her because we want a woman in the position.
Oh, you can get all sorts of justifications, but the heart of it is that specifying the sex of a new hire as a job qualification is sexist. By definition.
Stick with the inclusivity argument. Everybody knows what you mean.
New contributor
edited yesterday
V2Blast
16218
16218
New contributor
answered yesterday
James MartinJames Martin
1673
1673
New contributor
New contributor
5
The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...
– paul garrett
yesterday
3
@paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.
– James Martin
10 hours ago
add a comment |
5
The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...
– paul garrett
yesterday
3
@paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.
– James Martin
10 hours ago
5
5
The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...
– paul garrett
yesterday
The consideration of every hire separately, without looking at the aggregate effect, often leads to the obvious problems. E.g., it's probably not exactly "we want a woman in the position", but, more like "we'd like at least one woman faculty member in the department, as opposed to all men"... I'd claim that it is very naive to pretend that people can look around themselves and ignore the fact that they are very unlike most of the other people in the room, and that the look of the other people is normative, etc...
– paul garrett
yesterday
3
3
@paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.
– James Martin
10 hours ago
@paulgarrett - Well, yes. It's the great paradox of affirmative action. If you want the larger group to express the ideals, it is necessary to ignore those ideals when dealing with individuals, and vice-versa. Your comment is exactly correct, but it ignores the fact that selection is done on individuals, not a group, and selecting any individual based on sex is (again, by definition) sexist. The pattern goes way back. And if the sentiment being satisfied is, "we'd like at least one woman", well, congratulations - you've just established a quota. There are no good answers here.
– James Martin
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I can see this from two perspectives:
The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)
The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.
(As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)
New contributor
Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I can see this from two perspectives:
The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)
The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.
(As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)
New contributor
Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I can see this from two perspectives:
The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)
The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.
(As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)
New contributor
I can see this from two perspectives:
The college benefits from recruiting. If the female candidate in question can help with STEM recruiting of females, it will bring more applicants (and money) to the college. The college could also then (later on) boast to be "in top-5 colleges for graduating female STEM grads" or what-not. (E.g., the college I go to boasts about being in the top-5 most diversified colleges in the US due to all the exchange students it brings in.)
The college is about cranking out research, not balancing gender gaps. As such, they won't care about what gender someone is, or what value they bring to gender diversification initiatives. They're just looking at everything from a research puppy mill perspective, and will hire whatever workhorse they think can crank out the research.
(As a side note, while researchers get stuck teaching, teaching is not their main job. So, a researcher that can teach well is probably a secondary attribute the college considers, but not as highly as, say, students would prefer. Some colleges don't care about a researcher's teaching ability or past experience. It's all about research with them. All of this really hinges on what the college values: research vs. bragging about what they provide for the students.)
New contributor
edited 20 hours ago
Wrzlprmft♦
32.9k9106181
32.9k9106181
New contributor
answered 22 hours ago
blahblahblahblah
91
91
New contributor
New contributor
Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
Unless you are a research professor, teaching is part of the job description of a processor, so even universities that value research expect their professors to be competent in front of a classroom.
– anonymous
2 hours ago
add a comment |
protected by Wrzlprmft♦ 21 hours ago
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could you add statistics? How many women, how many male faculty you have? what is ratio in student population?
– aaaaaa
yesterday
1
Moderator’s notice: Answers in comments and extended discussions have been moved to chat. Please use comments only to suggest improvements to the question and mention related material. Read this FAQ before posting another comment. — Also, please refrain from using sarcasm and similar in answers and comments. It will be misunderstood. Finally, please remember to be nice.
– Wrzlprmft♦
20 hours ago
1
You might find this talk interesting. It's a discussion about gender disparity in academia from Jonathan Haidt (a social psychology researcher). It's a bit politicized, but it's worth thinking about.
– jpmc26
12 hours ago
+1, especially for the update "as someone who has worked to make science a more inclusive place for women and other under represented minorities". The key point here is that where the argument is put forth that the "best" candidate should be hired that it takes a values based judgement to define "best". Identify what it is that makes candidates such as your favoured one valuable and demand that the hiring criteria identify those. E.g. the institution or faculty may have specific goals about diversity and argue for candidate's ability to lead meeting those goals, not just to be a box tick.
– Keith
51 mins ago