Are “phonics” and “Phoenician” related?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty{ margin-bottom:0;
}
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I was watching a history lecture recently, and the professor stated that after the Greek "dark ages," during which their previously used written language was lost and forgotten, a new written language was developed by essentially stealing the pre-existing Phoenician alphabet and assigning sounds to each of the letters.
This is the earliest documented use of a phonetic alphabet in history (that I know of), and it occurred to me that the words "Phonics" and "Phoenician" might be related; in fact, this relationship makes it seem extremely unlikely that there is no relationship between the terms.
Can anyone explain the similarities between these words, and determine whether my guess is correct?
etymology phonetics phrase-origin
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I was watching a history lecture recently, and the professor stated that after the Greek "dark ages," during which their previously used written language was lost and forgotten, a new written language was developed by essentially stealing the pre-existing Phoenician alphabet and assigning sounds to each of the letters.
This is the earliest documented use of a phonetic alphabet in history (that I know of), and it occurred to me that the words "Phonics" and "Phoenician" might be related; in fact, this relationship makes it seem extremely unlikely that there is no relationship between the terms.
Can anyone explain the similarities between these words, and determine whether my guess is correct?
etymology phonetics phrase-origin
New contributor
Yep, somewhere around the 5th grade I was taught that the Phoneticians invented the concept of an alphabet of sounds, and hence they created "phonetics". Pretty sure you could find this if you looked on some sort of search thingie on some kind of electrical gizmo.
– Hot Licks
Nov 29 at 1:07
Not an answer at all but 'boat' and 'boot' are almost identical but have different sources. Just because two words sound the same doesn't mean they are related (they may be, but there's no guarantee).
– Mitch
Nov 29 at 3:38
@Mitch Right, that's why I'm asking. "Boat" and "boot" sound the same, but they don't have the uncanny historical relationship like that between "phonetic" and "Phoenician" that I described in my question.
– Frpzzd
2 days ago
@Frpzzd I think your suggestion is that the name 'Phoenician' (or really the original Greek) was coined by the Greeks for them (what they called themselves is unknown). And because the Greeks borrowed the Phoenician writing system, and metonymically labeled them after a Greek word associated with an alphabet, namely 'phone-', or sound. The metonym process is not a difficulty, the difficulty is data. The data (currently) supports the Greek word for 'red dye' as the source.
– Mitch
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I was watching a history lecture recently, and the professor stated that after the Greek "dark ages," during which their previously used written language was lost and forgotten, a new written language was developed by essentially stealing the pre-existing Phoenician alphabet and assigning sounds to each of the letters.
This is the earliest documented use of a phonetic alphabet in history (that I know of), and it occurred to me that the words "Phonics" and "Phoenician" might be related; in fact, this relationship makes it seem extremely unlikely that there is no relationship between the terms.
Can anyone explain the similarities between these words, and determine whether my guess is correct?
etymology phonetics phrase-origin
New contributor
I was watching a history lecture recently, and the professor stated that after the Greek "dark ages," during which their previously used written language was lost and forgotten, a new written language was developed by essentially stealing the pre-existing Phoenician alphabet and assigning sounds to each of the letters.
This is the earliest documented use of a phonetic alphabet in history (that I know of), and it occurred to me that the words "Phonics" and "Phoenician" might be related; in fact, this relationship makes it seem extremely unlikely that there is no relationship between the terms.
Can anyone explain the similarities between these words, and determine whether my guess is correct?
etymology phonetics phrase-origin
etymology phonetics phrase-origin
New contributor
New contributor
edited Nov 29 at 3:15
Laurel
29.3k654104
29.3k654104
New contributor
asked Nov 29 at 0:09
Frpzzd
1163
1163
New contributor
New contributor
Yep, somewhere around the 5th grade I was taught that the Phoneticians invented the concept of an alphabet of sounds, and hence they created "phonetics". Pretty sure you could find this if you looked on some sort of search thingie on some kind of electrical gizmo.
– Hot Licks
Nov 29 at 1:07
Not an answer at all but 'boat' and 'boot' are almost identical but have different sources. Just because two words sound the same doesn't mean they are related (they may be, but there's no guarantee).
– Mitch
Nov 29 at 3:38
@Mitch Right, that's why I'm asking. "Boat" and "boot" sound the same, but they don't have the uncanny historical relationship like that between "phonetic" and "Phoenician" that I described in my question.
– Frpzzd
2 days ago
@Frpzzd I think your suggestion is that the name 'Phoenician' (or really the original Greek) was coined by the Greeks for them (what they called themselves is unknown). And because the Greeks borrowed the Phoenician writing system, and metonymically labeled them after a Greek word associated with an alphabet, namely 'phone-', or sound. The metonym process is not a difficulty, the difficulty is data. The data (currently) supports the Greek word for 'red dye' as the source.
– Mitch
2 days ago
add a comment |
Yep, somewhere around the 5th grade I was taught that the Phoneticians invented the concept of an alphabet of sounds, and hence they created "phonetics". Pretty sure you could find this if you looked on some sort of search thingie on some kind of electrical gizmo.
– Hot Licks
Nov 29 at 1:07
Not an answer at all but 'boat' and 'boot' are almost identical but have different sources. Just because two words sound the same doesn't mean they are related (they may be, but there's no guarantee).
– Mitch
Nov 29 at 3:38
@Mitch Right, that's why I'm asking. "Boat" and "boot" sound the same, but they don't have the uncanny historical relationship like that between "phonetic" and "Phoenician" that I described in my question.
– Frpzzd
2 days ago
@Frpzzd I think your suggestion is that the name 'Phoenician' (or really the original Greek) was coined by the Greeks for them (what they called themselves is unknown). And because the Greeks borrowed the Phoenician writing system, and metonymically labeled them after a Greek word associated with an alphabet, namely 'phone-', or sound. The metonym process is not a difficulty, the difficulty is data. The data (currently) supports the Greek word for 'red dye' as the source.
– Mitch
2 days ago
Yep, somewhere around the 5th grade I was taught that the Phoneticians invented the concept of an alphabet of sounds, and hence they created "phonetics". Pretty sure you could find this if you looked on some sort of search thingie on some kind of electrical gizmo.
– Hot Licks
Nov 29 at 1:07
Yep, somewhere around the 5th grade I was taught that the Phoneticians invented the concept of an alphabet of sounds, and hence they created "phonetics". Pretty sure you could find this if you looked on some sort of search thingie on some kind of electrical gizmo.
– Hot Licks
Nov 29 at 1:07
Not an answer at all but 'boat' and 'boot' are almost identical but have different sources. Just because two words sound the same doesn't mean they are related (they may be, but there's no guarantee).
– Mitch
Nov 29 at 3:38
Not an answer at all but 'boat' and 'boot' are almost identical but have different sources. Just because two words sound the same doesn't mean they are related (they may be, but there's no guarantee).
– Mitch
Nov 29 at 3:38
@Mitch Right, that's why I'm asking. "Boat" and "boot" sound the same, but they don't have the uncanny historical relationship like that between "phonetic" and "Phoenician" that I described in my question.
– Frpzzd
2 days ago
@Mitch Right, that's why I'm asking. "Boat" and "boot" sound the same, but they don't have the uncanny historical relationship like that between "phonetic" and "Phoenician" that I described in my question.
– Frpzzd
2 days ago
@Frpzzd I think your suggestion is that the name 'Phoenician' (or really the original Greek) was coined by the Greeks for them (what they called themselves is unknown). And because the Greeks borrowed the Phoenician writing system, and metonymically labeled them after a Greek word associated with an alphabet, namely 'phone-', or sound. The metonym process is not a difficulty, the difficulty is data. The data (currently) supports the Greek word for 'red dye' as the source.
– Mitch
2 days ago
@Frpzzd I think your suggestion is that the name 'Phoenician' (or really the original Greek) was coined by the Greeks for them (what they called themselves is unknown). And because the Greeks borrowed the Phoenician writing system, and metonymically labeled them after a Greek word associated with an alphabet, namely 'phone-', or sound. The metonym process is not a difficulty, the difficulty is data. The data (currently) supports the Greek word for 'red dye' as the source.
– Mitch
2 days ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
5
down vote
This is a very vexed area, in which the chances of certainty are slight for the simple reason that it becomes progressively harder to determine exact pronunciation that far back.
However, I am afraid there is no connection between ‘Phoenician’ and ‘phonic’.
‘φοινοσ’ refers to a deep red luxury dye made from murex shells, in which Phoenician merchants traded most profitably.
The word phonetic is of Greek origin (φωνή {phōni} = voice).
Greek writing probably first emerged in the 8th century BCE. What its predecessors appear to have lacked, namely the Phoenician alphabet, was a comprehensive representation of vowel as well as consonant sounds. We still find this in Hebrew and Arabic scripts, where the diacritical marks to indicate vowel sounds are a relatively modern development.
Greek had 7 vowels: Α (A), Ε (E), Η (pronounced ‘air’ in ancient times but ‘ee’ now), Ι, Ο, Υ (pronounced more like the French ‘u’), Ω (pronounced like ‘awe’).
In addition there were various diphthongs: AI (as in ‘eye’), AU (as in ‘how’), EI (as in ‘eight’), OI (as in ‘joy’), OU (as in shoe’).
These vowels, in turn, made it easy to record the different dialects of the language, which were driven as much as by anything by local differences of pronunciation.
Much, possibly too much, has been made of the Greek ‘invention’ of a phonetic alphabet, when the predecessors did have sounds associated with their letters. Still, it is true that the voiced vowels were a significant development.
1
Eta was perhaps pronounced as ‘air’ in some specific dialects, but to most English-speakers, the two will sound fairly different. Similarly, ypsilon was pronounced like French <u>, not like French <i>.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
2 days ago
@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, I’m sorry about missing the ‘u’ and hitting the ‘i’ . I shall edit accordingly. ‘air’ (British English with non-rhotic ‘r’ was the nearest I could get. I am sorry. not to have though of US pronunciation.
– Tuffy
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Etymology is much, much more complicated than most people think! Just because words sound similar, that doesn't mean they are related. In this case, chances are negligible that they should be.
Greek φωνή "voice" is spelled with an omega, whereas φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is spelled with an omicron and an iota. Those letters represent very different vowels in Greek, and there are no phonological rules that I know of by which one could shift into the other. So that alone makes it very unlikely.
Further, the conexion between the Phoenician people, with whom the Greeks were in frequent and extensive contact, and the origin of the alphabet was not that important to the Greeks; they borrowed so many other things from the Phoenicians, of which the alphabet was only one. It would be like saying that the English word language must be related to the word Latin, because that is where English borrowed its alphabet from and the two words sound somewhat similar. Or that Dutch talen "languages" must be from Latijn "Latin", because they sound similar and the Dutch borrowed their alphabet from Latin. None of those things are true, and the similar sound is coincidental.
Lastly, the well respected etymological dictionary of Greek by Chantraine says that φωνή is probably from a Proto-Indo-European root *bho- meaning something like "sound"; but that φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is probably either from φοινός "(blood) red", because the skin tone of the Phoenicians was perceived to be "dark red", or from an unknown (and unattested) Phoenician word, or yet from an unknown word in an older substrate language. Note that φοινός "blood red" is probably not from φόνος "murder", still according to Chantraine, despite the apparent semantic similarity.
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
5
down vote
This is a very vexed area, in which the chances of certainty are slight for the simple reason that it becomes progressively harder to determine exact pronunciation that far back.
However, I am afraid there is no connection between ‘Phoenician’ and ‘phonic’.
‘φοινοσ’ refers to a deep red luxury dye made from murex shells, in which Phoenician merchants traded most profitably.
The word phonetic is of Greek origin (φωνή {phōni} = voice).
Greek writing probably first emerged in the 8th century BCE. What its predecessors appear to have lacked, namely the Phoenician alphabet, was a comprehensive representation of vowel as well as consonant sounds. We still find this in Hebrew and Arabic scripts, where the diacritical marks to indicate vowel sounds are a relatively modern development.
Greek had 7 vowels: Α (A), Ε (E), Η (pronounced ‘air’ in ancient times but ‘ee’ now), Ι, Ο, Υ (pronounced more like the French ‘u’), Ω (pronounced like ‘awe’).
In addition there were various diphthongs: AI (as in ‘eye’), AU (as in ‘how’), EI (as in ‘eight’), OI (as in ‘joy’), OU (as in shoe’).
These vowels, in turn, made it easy to record the different dialects of the language, which were driven as much as by anything by local differences of pronunciation.
Much, possibly too much, has been made of the Greek ‘invention’ of a phonetic alphabet, when the predecessors did have sounds associated with their letters. Still, it is true that the voiced vowels were a significant development.
1
Eta was perhaps pronounced as ‘air’ in some specific dialects, but to most English-speakers, the two will sound fairly different. Similarly, ypsilon was pronounced like French <u>, not like French <i>.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
2 days ago
@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, I’m sorry about missing the ‘u’ and hitting the ‘i’ . I shall edit accordingly. ‘air’ (British English with non-rhotic ‘r’ was the nearest I could get. I am sorry. not to have though of US pronunciation.
– Tuffy
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
This is a very vexed area, in which the chances of certainty are slight for the simple reason that it becomes progressively harder to determine exact pronunciation that far back.
However, I am afraid there is no connection between ‘Phoenician’ and ‘phonic’.
‘φοινοσ’ refers to a deep red luxury dye made from murex shells, in which Phoenician merchants traded most profitably.
The word phonetic is of Greek origin (φωνή {phōni} = voice).
Greek writing probably first emerged in the 8th century BCE. What its predecessors appear to have lacked, namely the Phoenician alphabet, was a comprehensive representation of vowel as well as consonant sounds. We still find this in Hebrew and Arabic scripts, where the diacritical marks to indicate vowel sounds are a relatively modern development.
Greek had 7 vowels: Α (A), Ε (E), Η (pronounced ‘air’ in ancient times but ‘ee’ now), Ι, Ο, Υ (pronounced more like the French ‘u’), Ω (pronounced like ‘awe’).
In addition there were various diphthongs: AI (as in ‘eye’), AU (as in ‘how’), EI (as in ‘eight’), OI (as in ‘joy’), OU (as in shoe’).
These vowels, in turn, made it easy to record the different dialects of the language, which were driven as much as by anything by local differences of pronunciation.
Much, possibly too much, has been made of the Greek ‘invention’ of a phonetic alphabet, when the predecessors did have sounds associated with their letters. Still, it is true that the voiced vowels were a significant development.
1
Eta was perhaps pronounced as ‘air’ in some specific dialects, but to most English-speakers, the two will sound fairly different. Similarly, ypsilon was pronounced like French <u>, not like French <i>.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
2 days ago
@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, I’m sorry about missing the ‘u’ and hitting the ‘i’ . I shall edit accordingly. ‘air’ (British English with non-rhotic ‘r’ was the nearest I could get. I am sorry. not to have though of US pronunciation.
– Tuffy
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
This is a very vexed area, in which the chances of certainty are slight for the simple reason that it becomes progressively harder to determine exact pronunciation that far back.
However, I am afraid there is no connection between ‘Phoenician’ and ‘phonic’.
‘φοινοσ’ refers to a deep red luxury dye made from murex shells, in which Phoenician merchants traded most profitably.
The word phonetic is of Greek origin (φωνή {phōni} = voice).
Greek writing probably first emerged in the 8th century BCE. What its predecessors appear to have lacked, namely the Phoenician alphabet, was a comprehensive representation of vowel as well as consonant sounds. We still find this in Hebrew and Arabic scripts, where the diacritical marks to indicate vowel sounds are a relatively modern development.
Greek had 7 vowels: Α (A), Ε (E), Η (pronounced ‘air’ in ancient times but ‘ee’ now), Ι, Ο, Υ (pronounced more like the French ‘u’), Ω (pronounced like ‘awe’).
In addition there were various diphthongs: AI (as in ‘eye’), AU (as in ‘how’), EI (as in ‘eight’), OI (as in ‘joy’), OU (as in shoe’).
These vowels, in turn, made it easy to record the different dialects of the language, which were driven as much as by anything by local differences of pronunciation.
Much, possibly too much, has been made of the Greek ‘invention’ of a phonetic alphabet, when the predecessors did have sounds associated with their letters. Still, it is true that the voiced vowels were a significant development.
This is a very vexed area, in which the chances of certainty are slight for the simple reason that it becomes progressively harder to determine exact pronunciation that far back.
However, I am afraid there is no connection between ‘Phoenician’ and ‘phonic’.
‘φοινοσ’ refers to a deep red luxury dye made from murex shells, in which Phoenician merchants traded most profitably.
The word phonetic is of Greek origin (φωνή {phōni} = voice).
Greek writing probably first emerged in the 8th century BCE. What its predecessors appear to have lacked, namely the Phoenician alphabet, was a comprehensive representation of vowel as well as consonant sounds. We still find this in Hebrew and Arabic scripts, where the diacritical marks to indicate vowel sounds are a relatively modern development.
Greek had 7 vowels: Α (A), Ε (E), Η (pronounced ‘air’ in ancient times but ‘ee’ now), Ι, Ο, Υ (pronounced more like the French ‘u’), Ω (pronounced like ‘awe’).
In addition there were various diphthongs: AI (as in ‘eye’), AU (as in ‘how’), EI (as in ‘eight’), OI (as in ‘joy’), OU (as in shoe’).
These vowels, in turn, made it easy to record the different dialects of the language, which were driven as much as by anything by local differences of pronunciation.
Much, possibly too much, has been made of the Greek ‘invention’ of a phonetic alphabet, when the predecessors did have sounds associated with their letters. Still, it is true that the voiced vowels were a significant development.
edited 2 days ago
answered Nov 29 at 1:11
Tuffy
3,1621617
3,1621617
1
Eta was perhaps pronounced as ‘air’ in some specific dialects, but to most English-speakers, the two will sound fairly different. Similarly, ypsilon was pronounced like French <u>, not like French <i>.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
2 days ago
@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, I’m sorry about missing the ‘u’ and hitting the ‘i’ . I shall edit accordingly. ‘air’ (British English with non-rhotic ‘r’ was the nearest I could get. I am sorry. not to have though of US pronunciation.
– Tuffy
2 days ago
add a comment |
1
Eta was perhaps pronounced as ‘air’ in some specific dialects, but to most English-speakers, the two will sound fairly different. Similarly, ypsilon was pronounced like French <u>, not like French <i>.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
2 days ago
@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, I’m sorry about missing the ‘u’ and hitting the ‘i’ . I shall edit accordingly. ‘air’ (British English with non-rhotic ‘r’ was the nearest I could get. I am sorry. not to have though of US pronunciation.
– Tuffy
2 days ago
1
1
Eta was perhaps pronounced as ‘air’ in some specific dialects, but to most English-speakers, the two will sound fairly different. Similarly, ypsilon was pronounced like French <u>, not like French <i>.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
2 days ago
Eta was perhaps pronounced as ‘air’ in some specific dialects, but to most English-speakers, the two will sound fairly different. Similarly, ypsilon was pronounced like French <u>, not like French <i>.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
2 days ago
@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, I’m sorry about missing the ‘u’ and hitting the ‘i’ . I shall edit accordingly. ‘air’ (British English with non-rhotic ‘r’ was the nearest I could get. I am sorry. not to have though of US pronunciation.
– Tuffy
2 days ago
@JanusBahsJacquet Yes, I’m sorry about missing the ‘u’ and hitting the ‘i’ . I shall edit accordingly. ‘air’ (British English with non-rhotic ‘r’ was the nearest I could get. I am sorry. not to have though of US pronunciation.
– Tuffy
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Etymology is much, much more complicated than most people think! Just because words sound similar, that doesn't mean they are related. In this case, chances are negligible that they should be.
Greek φωνή "voice" is spelled with an omega, whereas φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is spelled with an omicron and an iota. Those letters represent very different vowels in Greek, and there are no phonological rules that I know of by which one could shift into the other. So that alone makes it very unlikely.
Further, the conexion between the Phoenician people, with whom the Greeks were in frequent and extensive contact, and the origin of the alphabet was not that important to the Greeks; they borrowed so many other things from the Phoenicians, of which the alphabet was only one. It would be like saying that the English word language must be related to the word Latin, because that is where English borrowed its alphabet from and the two words sound somewhat similar. Or that Dutch talen "languages" must be from Latijn "Latin", because they sound similar and the Dutch borrowed their alphabet from Latin. None of those things are true, and the similar sound is coincidental.
Lastly, the well respected etymological dictionary of Greek by Chantraine says that φωνή is probably from a Proto-Indo-European root *bho- meaning something like "sound"; but that φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is probably either from φοινός "(blood) red", because the skin tone of the Phoenicians was perceived to be "dark red", or from an unknown (and unattested) Phoenician word, or yet from an unknown word in an older substrate language. Note that φοινός "blood red" is probably not from φόνος "murder", still according to Chantraine, despite the apparent semantic similarity.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Etymology is much, much more complicated than most people think! Just because words sound similar, that doesn't mean they are related. In this case, chances are negligible that they should be.
Greek φωνή "voice" is spelled with an omega, whereas φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is spelled with an omicron and an iota. Those letters represent very different vowels in Greek, and there are no phonological rules that I know of by which one could shift into the other. So that alone makes it very unlikely.
Further, the conexion between the Phoenician people, with whom the Greeks were in frequent and extensive contact, and the origin of the alphabet was not that important to the Greeks; they borrowed so many other things from the Phoenicians, of which the alphabet was only one. It would be like saying that the English word language must be related to the word Latin, because that is where English borrowed its alphabet from and the two words sound somewhat similar. Or that Dutch talen "languages" must be from Latijn "Latin", because they sound similar and the Dutch borrowed their alphabet from Latin. None of those things are true, and the similar sound is coincidental.
Lastly, the well respected etymological dictionary of Greek by Chantraine says that φωνή is probably from a Proto-Indo-European root *bho- meaning something like "sound"; but that φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is probably either from φοινός "(blood) red", because the skin tone of the Phoenicians was perceived to be "dark red", or from an unknown (and unattested) Phoenician word, or yet from an unknown word in an older substrate language. Note that φοινός "blood red" is probably not from φόνος "murder", still according to Chantraine, despite the apparent semantic similarity.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Etymology is much, much more complicated than most people think! Just because words sound similar, that doesn't mean they are related. In this case, chances are negligible that they should be.
Greek φωνή "voice" is spelled with an omega, whereas φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is spelled with an omicron and an iota. Those letters represent very different vowels in Greek, and there are no phonological rules that I know of by which one could shift into the other. So that alone makes it very unlikely.
Further, the conexion between the Phoenician people, with whom the Greeks were in frequent and extensive contact, and the origin of the alphabet was not that important to the Greeks; they borrowed so many other things from the Phoenicians, of which the alphabet was only one. It would be like saying that the English word language must be related to the word Latin, because that is where English borrowed its alphabet from and the two words sound somewhat similar. Or that Dutch talen "languages" must be from Latijn "Latin", because they sound similar and the Dutch borrowed their alphabet from Latin. None of those things are true, and the similar sound is coincidental.
Lastly, the well respected etymological dictionary of Greek by Chantraine says that φωνή is probably from a Proto-Indo-European root *bho- meaning something like "sound"; but that φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is probably either from φοινός "(blood) red", because the skin tone of the Phoenicians was perceived to be "dark red", or from an unknown (and unattested) Phoenician word, or yet from an unknown word in an older substrate language. Note that φοινός "blood red" is probably not from φόνος "murder", still according to Chantraine, despite the apparent semantic similarity.
Etymology is much, much more complicated than most people think! Just because words sound similar, that doesn't mean they are related. In this case, chances are negligible that they should be.
Greek φωνή "voice" is spelled with an omega, whereas φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is spelled with an omicron and an iota. Those letters represent very different vowels in Greek, and there are no phonological rules that I know of by which one could shift into the other. So that alone makes it very unlikely.
Further, the conexion between the Phoenician people, with whom the Greeks were in frequent and extensive contact, and the origin of the alphabet was not that important to the Greeks; they borrowed so many other things from the Phoenicians, of which the alphabet was only one. It would be like saying that the English word language must be related to the word Latin, because that is where English borrowed its alphabet from and the two words sound somewhat similar. Or that Dutch talen "languages" must be from Latijn "Latin", because they sound similar and the Dutch borrowed their alphabet from Latin. None of those things are true, and the similar sound is coincidental.
Lastly, the well respected etymological dictionary of Greek by Chantraine says that φωνή is probably from a Proto-Indo-European root *bho- meaning something like "sound"; but that φοῖνιξ "Phoenician" is probably either from φοινός "(blood) red", because the skin tone of the Phoenicians was perceived to be "dark red", or from an unknown (and unattested) Phoenician word, or yet from an unknown word in an older substrate language. Note that φοινός "blood red" is probably not from φόνος "murder", still according to Chantraine, despite the apparent semantic similarity.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
Cerberus
53.7k2118205
53.7k2118205
add a comment |
add a comment |
Frpzzd is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Frpzzd is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Frpzzd is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Frpzzd is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to English Language & Usage Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fenglish.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f474896%2fare-phonics-and-phoenician-related%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Yep, somewhere around the 5th grade I was taught that the Phoneticians invented the concept of an alphabet of sounds, and hence they created "phonetics". Pretty sure you could find this if you looked on some sort of search thingie on some kind of electrical gizmo.
– Hot Licks
Nov 29 at 1:07
Not an answer at all but 'boat' and 'boot' are almost identical but have different sources. Just because two words sound the same doesn't mean they are related (they may be, but there's no guarantee).
– Mitch
Nov 29 at 3:38
@Mitch Right, that's why I'm asking. "Boat" and "boot" sound the same, but they don't have the uncanny historical relationship like that between "phonetic" and "Phoenician" that I described in my question.
– Frpzzd
2 days ago
@Frpzzd I think your suggestion is that the name 'Phoenician' (or really the original Greek) was coined by the Greeks for them (what they called themselves is unknown). And because the Greeks borrowed the Phoenician writing system, and metonymically labeled them after a Greek word associated with an alphabet, namely 'phone-', or sound. The metonym process is not a difficulty, the difficulty is data. The data (currently) supports the Greek word for 'red dye' as the source.
– Mitch
2 days ago