Use of “Or”, inclusive or exclusive?
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My wife and I are playing a game where you roll dice and move so many spaces in a grid "vertically or horizontally".
In the use of English it is very common to say, this or the other when it comes to making a choice (exclusive or). Now I know that "or" can also be inclusive, for example "she couldn't read or write", or can be clearly used as an xor "you either come or not" making the statement true for only one of the options but not both.
My issue is where it is not clear whether it is an inclusive/exclusive or, the best example being our game.
I argue that you can move in either direction (inclusive) and the normal use of this conjunction in English should be inclusive unless specified otherwise.
Is this right?
meaning conjunctions ambiguity
edited Dec 27 '12 at 5:57
James Waldby - jwpat7
62.2k1186182
asked Dec 27 '12 at 3:00
Onema
173117
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
My wife and I are playing a game where you roll dice and move so many spaces in a grid "vertically or horizontally".
In the use of English it is very common to say, this or the other when it comes to making a choice (exclusive or). Now I know that "or" can also be inclusive, for example "she couldn't read or write", or can be clearly used as an xor "you either come or not" making the statement true for only one of the options but not both.
My issue is where it is not clear whether it is an inclusive/exclusive or, the best example being our game.
I argue that you can move in either direction (inclusive) and the normal use of this conjunction in English should be inclusive unless specified otherwise.
Is this right?
meaning conjunctions ambiguity
edited Dec 27 '12 at 5:57
James Waldby - jwpat7
62.2k1186182
asked Dec 27 '12 at 3:00
Onema
173117
17
The linguists here may not agree, but, in matters like this, my marriage counselor would advise you to go with whichever interpretation she thinks is correct. :^)
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:07
2
“Roll a dice”? You mean roll a die, right?
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:20
You might look at this question.
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:48
1
For the interpretation of your game rules, I would presume that if you roll a 5, you move 5 spaces in one direction out of the set (up/down/left/right). You don't move 2 up and then 3 left, nor any other combination totaling 5 (and you certainly don't move 5 up AND 5 left).
– Hellion
Dec 27 '12 at 16:17
1
AND is often used in English to mean OR: "A discount is given to people under age 12 AND people over age 65." Obviously, one cannot be both. I warn my programming students about this in terms of gathering specifications. Nail them down.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:10
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
My wife and I are playing a game where you roll dice and move so many spaces in a grid "vertically or horizontally".
In the use of English it is very common to say, this or the other when it comes to making a choice (exclusive or). Now I know that "or" can also be inclusive, for example "she couldn't read or write", or can be clearly used as an xor "you either come or not" making the statement true for only one of the options but not both.
My issue is where it is not clear whether it is an inclusive/exclusive or, the best example being our game.
I argue that you can move in either direction (inclusive) and the normal use of this conjunction in English should be inclusive unless specified otherwise.
Is this right?
meaning conjunctions ambiguity
edited Dec 27 '12 at 5:57
James Waldby - jwpat7
62.2k1186182
asked Dec 27 '12 at 3:00
Onema
173117
My wife and I are playing a game where you roll dice and move so many spaces in a grid "vertically or horizontally".
In the use of English it is very common to say, this or the other when it comes to making a choice (exclusive or). Now I know that "or" can also be inclusive, for example "she couldn't read or write", or can be clearly used as an xor "you either come or not" making the statement true for only one of the options but not both.
My issue is where it is not clear whether it is an inclusive/exclusive or, the best example being our game.
I argue that you can move in either direction (inclusive) and the normal use of this conjunction in English should be inclusive unless specified otherwise.
Is this right?
meaning conjunctions ambiguity
meaning conjunctions ambiguity
edited Dec 27 '12 at 5:57
James Waldby - jwpat7
62.2k1186182
asked Dec 27 '12 at 3:00
Onema
173117
edited Dec 27 '12 at 5:57
James Waldby - jwpat7
62.2k1186182
asked Dec 27 '12 at 3:00
Onema
173117
edited Dec 27 '12 at 5:57
James Waldby - jwpat7
62.2k1186182
edited Dec 27 '12 at 5:57
James Waldby - jwpat7
62.2k1186182
edited Dec 27 '12 at 5:57
James Waldby - jwpat7
62.2k1186182
62.2k1186182
asked Dec 27 '12 at 3:00
Onema
173117
asked Dec 27 '12 at 3:00
Onema
173117
asked Dec 27 '12 at 3:00
Onema
173117
173117
17
The linguists here may not agree, but, in matters like this, my marriage counselor would advise you to go with whichever interpretation she thinks is correct. :^)
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:07
2
“Roll a dice”? You mean roll a die, right?
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:20
You might look at this question.
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:48
1
For the interpretation of your game rules, I would presume that if you roll a 5, you move 5 spaces in one direction out of the set (up/down/left/right). You don't move 2 up and then 3 left, nor any other combination totaling 5 (and you certainly don't move 5 up AND 5 left).
– Hellion
Dec 27 '12 at 16:17
1
AND is often used in English to mean OR: "A discount is given to people under age 12 AND people over age 65." Obviously, one cannot be both. I warn my programming students about this in terms of gathering specifications. Nail them down.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:10
|
show 7 more comments
17
The linguists here may not agree, but, in matters like this, my marriage counselor would advise you to go with whichever interpretation she thinks is correct. :^)
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:07
2
“Roll a dice”? You mean roll a die, right?
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:20
You might look at this question.
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:48
1
For the interpretation of your game rules, I would presume that if you roll a 5, you move 5 spaces in one direction out of the set (up/down/left/right). You don't move 2 up and then 3 left, nor any other combination totaling 5 (and you certainly don't move 5 up AND 5 left).
– Hellion
Dec 27 '12 at 16:17
1
AND is often used in English to mean OR: "A discount is given to people under age 12 AND people over age 65." Obviously, one cannot be both. I warn my programming students about this in terms of gathering specifications. Nail them down.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:10
17
17
The linguists here may not agree, but, in matters like this, my marriage counselor would advise you to go with whichever interpretation she thinks is correct. :^)
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:07
The linguists here may not agree, but, in matters like this, my marriage counselor would advise you to go with whichever interpretation she thinks is correct. :^)
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:07
2
2
“Roll a dice”? You mean roll a die, right?
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:20
“Roll a dice”? You mean roll a die, right?
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:20
You might look at this question.
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:48
You might look at this question.
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:48
1
1
For the interpretation of your game rules, I would presume that if you roll a 5, you move 5 spaces in one direction out of the set (up/down/left/right). You don't move 2 up and then 3 left, nor any other combination totaling 5 (and you certainly don't move 5 up AND 5 left).
– Hellion
Dec 27 '12 at 16:17
For the interpretation of your game rules, I would presume that if you roll a 5, you move 5 spaces in one direction out of the set (up/down/left/right). You don't move 2 up and then 3 left, nor any other combination totaling 5 (and you certainly don't move 5 up AND 5 left).
– Hellion
Dec 27 '12 at 16:17
1
1
AND is often used in English to mean OR: "A discount is given to people under age 12 AND people over age 65." Obviously, one cannot be both. I warn my programming students about this in terms of gathering specifications. Nail them down.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:10
AND is often used in English to mean OR: "A discount is given to people under age 12 AND people over age 65." Obviously, one cannot be both. I warn my programming students about this in terms of gathering specifications. Nail them down.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:10
|
show 7 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
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up vote
12
down vote
accepted
I agree with you (and have written to this effect here) that English or is ambiguous.
Alongside your “she couldn’t read or write” and Andrew Lazarus’ “You must be crazy or stupid” there are ordinary constructions like “Help yourself to chicken or ribs or chili or whatever strikes your fancy” and “I like Dickens better than Trollope or Scott or Thackeray” in which or is clearly not exclusive. If it were not so, lawyers and technical writers would never trouble to insert “but not both” to specifically exclude an inclusive reading, just as they insert “or both” to specifically exclude an exclusive reading.
Under ordinary circumstances, the context makes clear which meaning is intended. If a waiter tells you you may have mashed potatoes or fries with your steak, both of you know perfectly well he means one or the other but not both. On the other hand, if he asks if you would like coffee or dessert you do not understand him to forbid your ordering both coffee and a slice of pie.
But when there is no such context I would follow tchrist this far: the default reading is exclusive.
edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38
Community♦
1
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
StoneyB
64.1k3110210
1
Yes, I always insert that "or both" to ensure that the conjunctive possibility exists whenever it does. So I'd agree that it's inherently ambiguous except in restaurants where only one cup of tea or coffee and one piece of pie or cake comes with the meal: you don't get both and you know it. In Chinese restaurants, of course, it's always "one from column A and one from column B".
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:27
This is a great answer, just so you know I took my examples from the iPhone dictionary, they all could be used as inclusive unless noted otherwise. As an English learner I have heard many times phrases like "she couldn't read or write" (also taken from the iphone example) which sounds dumb yet are commonly used... Very confusing, this brings some clarity, thanks.
– Onema
Dec 27 '12 at 4:50
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It seems to me that how a person uses 'or' is very much defined by their perception of what they mean, rather than by any formal rules of the English language. And this can usually be interpreted from the context, particularly in speech, by a person with English as a first language.
And this gives rise to another problem - the difference between written and spoken language, and the problem of writing language as it is spoken, rather than having an awareness of the difference between the two (with spoken language usually having much more nuance, through changes of vocalisation, tone, etc., than written language, and a hearer usually more able to quickly discern a meaning).
Be that as it may, English is my only language and I have always regarded 'or' as exclusive, although I know that others do not do so. So when I mean one or the other or both I usually insert an 'and/or', particularly in written text.
Also, someone mentioned the use of 'either... or' somewhere, on this or another page. It seems to me that as soon as we use 'either' we are automatically exclusivising the 'or'. However, I don't think it's really the 'or' that's exclusive in this case, but rather the combination of the two words that gives rise to the exclusivity.
answered Feb 24 '15 at 0:22
RJB
11
add a comment |
up vote
-1
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In English, or is always disjunctive. There is no ambiguity.
It is either one or else it is the other. It is not both. That is why when it could be both, one always says “one or the other or both”. The or does not admit the possibility that both may apply. So you have to add or both if you want both to be a possibility.
In other words, it corresponds to the computer’s xor operation, not to the computer’s or operation. The English or is really an xor.
As Bill notes in a comment, it is always grammatically disjunctive. So “Either Peter or Paul is coming to dinner with Mary” demands a singular verb, and you should set two places at the table, not three.
If you said that in chess, the queen can move any number of unblocked spaces either vertically or horizontally, you know that she cannot do both at the same time. However, with your own game, I cannot say, because I do not know its rules. The question comes down to whether you have to move in a straight line in the game you are playing, and I do not know your game.
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:02
tchrist♦
108k28290462
4
I don't think the or in "You must be stupid or crazy to believe that!" is strictly exclusive.
– Andrew Lazarus
Dec 27 '12 at 3:19
5
Along with what @Andrew said, I can think of other examples where or would function more like anorthan anxor, like when a pro scout says, "We should try to get a quarterback who is strong or mobile," or when a woman says, "I'd like to marry a man who is handsome or rich." I'm not sure it's "always" disjunctive; there are times when "both would be acceptable, if not even better" can be inferred from the context.
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
7
"Or" is always disjunctive grammatically, which means that if the two NPs it disjoins are singular, the verb that follows is also singular: "George or Martha was murdered in Miami", but conjunctive grammatically gives "George and Martha were murdered in Miami". "My late mother-in-law couldn't read or write" (= could neither read nor write) (true fact) is similarly grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive because it means that she was unable to do both. More proof that terminology explains nothing unless it's precisely & clearly defined.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:19
I think the negation ("couldn't read or write") makes or semantically conjunctive in this phrase. Neither writing nor reading was {her métier / one of her skills} is grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:53
1
The Queen in chess can move diagonally as well. And a diagonal line is a "straight" line. So your last paragraph is uninformed or incorrect.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:04
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3 Answers
3
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oldest
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
I agree with you (and have written to this effect here) that English or is ambiguous.
Alongside your “she couldn’t read or write” and Andrew Lazarus’ “You must be crazy or stupid” there are ordinary constructions like “Help yourself to chicken or ribs or chili or whatever strikes your fancy” and “I like Dickens better than Trollope or Scott or Thackeray” in which or is clearly not exclusive. If it were not so, lawyers and technical writers would never trouble to insert “but not both” to specifically exclude an inclusive reading, just as they insert “or both” to specifically exclude an exclusive reading.
Under ordinary circumstances, the context makes clear which meaning is intended. If a waiter tells you you may have mashed potatoes or fries with your steak, both of you know perfectly well he means one or the other but not both. On the other hand, if he asks if you would like coffee or dessert you do not understand him to forbid your ordering both coffee and a slice of pie.
But when there is no such context I would follow tchrist this far: the default reading is exclusive.
edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38
Community♦
1
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
StoneyB
64.1k3110210
1
Yes, I always insert that "or both" to ensure that the conjunctive possibility exists whenever it does. So I'd agree that it's inherently ambiguous except in restaurants where only one cup of tea or coffee and one piece of pie or cake comes with the meal: you don't get both and you know it. In Chinese restaurants, of course, it's always "one from column A and one from column B".
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:27
This is a great answer, just so you know I took my examples from the iPhone dictionary, they all could be used as inclusive unless noted otherwise. As an English learner I have heard many times phrases like "she couldn't read or write" (also taken from the iphone example) which sounds dumb yet are commonly used... Very confusing, this brings some clarity, thanks.
– Onema
Dec 27 '12 at 4:50
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
I agree with you (and have written to this effect here) that English or is ambiguous.
Alongside your “she couldn’t read or write” and Andrew Lazarus’ “You must be crazy or stupid” there are ordinary constructions like “Help yourself to chicken or ribs or chili or whatever strikes your fancy” and “I like Dickens better than Trollope or Scott or Thackeray” in which or is clearly not exclusive. If it were not so, lawyers and technical writers would never trouble to insert “but not both” to specifically exclude an inclusive reading, just as they insert “or both” to specifically exclude an exclusive reading.
Under ordinary circumstances, the context makes clear which meaning is intended. If a waiter tells you you may have mashed potatoes or fries with your steak, both of you know perfectly well he means one or the other but not both. On the other hand, if he asks if you would like coffee or dessert you do not understand him to forbid your ordering both coffee and a slice of pie.
But when there is no such context I would follow tchrist this far: the default reading is exclusive.
edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38
Community♦
1
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
StoneyB
64.1k3110210
1
Yes, I always insert that "or both" to ensure that the conjunctive possibility exists whenever it does. So I'd agree that it's inherently ambiguous except in restaurants where only one cup of tea or coffee and one piece of pie or cake comes with the meal: you don't get both and you know it. In Chinese restaurants, of course, it's always "one from column A and one from column B".
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:27
This is a great answer, just so you know I took my examples from the iPhone dictionary, they all could be used as inclusive unless noted otherwise. As an English learner I have heard many times phrases like "she couldn't read or write" (also taken from the iphone example) which sounds dumb yet are commonly used... Very confusing, this brings some clarity, thanks.
– Onema
Dec 27 '12 at 4:50
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
up vote
12
down vote
accepted
I agree with you (and have written to this effect here) that English or is ambiguous.
Alongside your “she couldn’t read or write” and Andrew Lazarus’ “You must be crazy or stupid” there are ordinary constructions like “Help yourself to chicken or ribs or chili or whatever strikes your fancy” and “I like Dickens better than Trollope or Scott or Thackeray” in which or is clearly not exclusive. If it were not so, lawyers and technical writers would never trouble to insert “but not both” to specifically exclude an inclusive reading, just as they insert “or both” to specifically exclude an exclusive reading.
Under ordinary circumstances, the context makes clear which meaning is intended. If a waiter tells you you may have mashed potatoes or fries with your steak, both of you know perfectly well he means one or the other but not both. On the other hand, if he asks if you would like coffee or dessert you do not understand him to forbid your ordering both coffee and a slice of pie.
But when there is no such context I would follow tchrist this far: the default reading is exclusive.
edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38
Community♦
1
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
StoneyB
64.1k3110210
I agree with you (and have written to this effect here) that English or is ambiguous.
Alongside your “she couldn’t read or write” and Andrew Lazarus’ “You must be crazy or stupid” there are ordinary constructions like “Help yourself to chicken or ribs or chili or whatever strikes your fancy” and “I like Dickens better than Trollope or Scott or Thackeray” in which or is clearly not exclusive. If it were not so, lawyers and technical writers would never trouble to insert “but not both” to specifically exclude an inclusive reading, just as they insert “or both” to specifically exclude an exclusive reading.
Under ordinary circumstances, the context makes clear which meaning is intended. If a waiter tells you you may have mashed potatoes or fries with your steak, both of you know perfectly well he means one or the other but not both. On the other hand, if he asks if you would like coffee or dessert you do not understand him to forbid your ordering both coffee and a slice of pie.
But when there is no such context I would follow tchrist this far: the default reading is exclusive.
edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38
Community♦
1
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
StoneyB
64.1k3110210
edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38
Community♦
1
edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38
Community♦
1
edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:38
Community♦
1
1
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
StoneyB
64.1k3110210
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
StoneyB
64.1k3110210
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
StoneyB
64.1k3110210
64.1k3110210
1
Yes, I always insert that "or both" to ensure that the conjunctive possibility exists whenever it does. So I'd agree that it's inherently ambiguous except in restaurants where only one cup of tea or coffee and one piece of pie or cake comes with the meal: you don't get both and you know it. In Chinese restaurants, of course, it's always "one from column A and one from column B".
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:27
This is a great answer, just so you know I took my examples from the iPhone dictionary, they all could be used as inclusive unless noted otherwise. As an English learner I have heard many times phrases like "she couldn't read or write" (also taken from the iphone example) which sounds dumb yet are commonly used... Very confusing, this brings some clarity, thanks.
– Onema
Dec 27 '12 at 4:50
add a comment |
1
Yes, I always insert that "or both" to ensure that the conjunctive possibility exists whenever it does. So I'd agree that it's inherently ambiguous except in restaurants where only one cup of tea or coffee and one piece of pie or cake comes with the meal: you don't get both and you know it. In Chinese restaurants, of course, it's always "one from column A and one from column B".
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:27
This is a great answer, just so you know I took my examples from the iPhone dictionary, they all could be used as inclusive unless noted otherwise. As an English learner I have heard many times phrases like "she couldn't read or write" (also taken from the iphone example) which sounds dumb yet are commonly used... Very confusing, this brings some clarity, thanks.
– Onema
Dec 27 '12 at 4:50
1
1
Yes, I always insert that "or both" to ensure that the conjunctive possibility exists whenever it does. So I'd agree that it's inherently ambiguous except in restaurants where only one cup of tea or coffee and one piece of pie or cake comes with the meal: you don't get both and you know it. In Chinese restaurants, of course, it's always "one from column A and one from column B".
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:27
Yes, I always insert that "or both" to ensure that the conjunctive possibility exists whenever it does. So I'd agree that it's inherently ambiguous except in restaurants where only one cup of tea or coffee and one piece of pie or cake comes with the meal: you don't get both and you know it. In Chinese restaurants, of course, it's always "one from column A and one from column B".
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:27
This is a great answer, just so you know I took my examples from the iPhone dictionary, they all could be used as inclusive unless noted otherwise. As an English learner I have heard many times phrases like "she couldn't read or write" (also taken from the iphone example) which sounds dumb yet are commonly used... Very confusing, this brings some clarity, thanks.
– Onema
Dec 27 '12 at 4:50
This is a great answer, just so you know I took my examples from the iPhone dictionary, they all could be used as inclusive unless noted otherwise. As an English learner I have heard many times phrases like "she couldn't read or write" (also taken from the iphone example) which sounds dumb yet are commonly used... Very confusing, this brings some clarity, thanks.
– Onema
Dec 27 '12 at 4:50
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It seems to me that how a person uses 'or' is very much defined by their perception of what they mean, rather than by any formal rules of the English language. And this can usually be interpreted from the context, particularly in speech, by a person with English as a first language.
And this gives rise to another problem - the difference between written and spoken language, and the problem of writing language as it is spoken, rather than having an awareness of the difference between the two (with spoken language usually having much more nuance, through changes of vocalisation, tone, etc., than written language, and a hearer usually more able to quickly discern a meaning).
Be that as it may, English is my only language and I have always regarded 'or' as exclusive, although I know that others do not do so. So when I mean one or the other or both I usually insert an 'and/or', particularly in written text.
Also, someone mentioned the use of 'either... or' somewhere, on this or another page. It seems to me that as soon as we use 'either' we are automatically exclusivising the 'or'. However, I don't think it's really the 'or' that's exclusive in this case, but rather the combination of the two words that gives rise to the exclusivity.
answered Feb 24 '15 at 0:22
RJB
11
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It seems to me that how a person uses 'or' is very much defined by their perception of what they mean, rather than by any formal rules of the English language. And this can usually be interpreted from the context, particularly in speech, by a person with English as a first language.
And this gives rise to another problem - the difference between written and spoken language, and the problem of writing language as it is spoken, rather than having an awareness of the difference between the two (with spoken language usually having much more nuance, through changes of vocalisation, tone, etc., than written language, and a hearer usually more able to quickly discern a meaning).
Be that as it may, English is my only language and I have always regarded 'or' as exclusive, although I know that others do not do so. So when I mean one or the other or both I usually insert an 'and/or', particularly in written text.
Also, someone mentioned the use of 'either... or' somewhere, on this or another page. It seems to me that as soon as we use 'either' we are automatically exclusivising the 'or'. However, I don't think it's really the 'or' that's exclusive in this case, but rather the combination of the two words that gives rise to the exclusivity.
answered Feb 24 '15 at 0:22
RJB
11
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
It seems to me that how a person uses 'or' is very much defined by their perception of what they mean, rather than by any formal rules of the English language. And this can usually be interpreted from the context, particularly in speech, by a person with English as a first language.
And this gives rise to another problem - the difference between written and spoken language, and the problem of writing language as it is spoken, rather than having an awareness of the difference between the two (with spoken language usually having much more nuance, through changes of vocalisation, tone, etc., than written language, and a hearer usually more able to quickly discern a meaning).
Be that as it may, English is my only language and I have always regarded 'or' as exclusive, although I know that others do not do so. So when I mean one or the other or both I usually insert an 'and/or', particularly in written text.
Also, someone mentioned the use of 'either... or' somewhere, on this or another page. It seems to me that as soon as we use 'either' we are automatically exclusivising the 'or'. However, I don't think it's really the 'or' that's exclusive in this case, but rather the combination of the two words that gives rise to the exclusivity.
answered Feb 24 '15 at 0:22
RJB
11
It seems to me that how a person uses 'or' is very much defined by their perception of what they mean, rather than by any formal rules of the English language. And this can usually be interpreted from the context, particularly in speech, by a person with English as a first language.
And this gives rise to another problem - the difference between written and spoken language, and the problem of writing language as it is spoken, rather than having an awareness of the difference between the two (with spoken language usually having much more nuance, through changes of vocalisation, tone, etc., than written language, and a hearer usually more able to quickly discern a meaning).
Be that as it may, English is my only language and I have always regarded 'or' as exclusive, although I know that others do not do so. So when I mean one or the other or both I usually insert an 'and/or', particularly in written text.
Also, someone mentioned the use of 'either... or' somewhere, on this or another page. It seems to me that as soon as we use 'either' we are automatically exclusivising the 'or'. However, I don't think it's really the 'or' that's exclusive in this case, but rather the combination of the two words that gives rise to the exclusivity.
answered Feb 24 '15 at 0:22
RJB
11
answered Feb 24 '15 at 0:22
RJB
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answered Feb 24 '15 at 0:22
RJB
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answered Feb 24 '15 at 0:22
RJB
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11
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In English, or is always disjunctive. There is no ambiguity.
It is either one or else it is the other. It is not both. That is why when it could be both, one always says “one or the other or both”. The or does not admit the possibility that both may apply. So you have to add or both if you want both to be a possibility.
In other words, it corresponds to the computer’s xor operation, not to the computer’s or operation. The English or is really an xor.
As Bill notes in a comment, it is always grammatically disjunctive. So “Either Peter or Paul is coming to dinner with Mary” demands a singular verb, and you should set two places at the table, not three.
If you said that in chess, the queen can move any number of unblocked spaces either vertically or horizontally, you know that she cannot do both at the same time. However, with your own game, I cannot say, because I do not know its rules. The question comes down to whether you have to move in a straight line in the game you are playing, and I do not know your game.
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:02
tchrist♦
108k28290462
4
I don't think the or in "You must be stupid or crazy to believe that!" is strictly exclusive.
– Andrew Lazarus
Dec 27 '12 at 3:19
5
Along with what @Andrew said, I can think of other examples where or would function more like anorthan anxor, like when a pro scout says, "We should try to get a quarterback who is strong or mobile," or when a woman says, "I'd like to marry a man who is handsome or rich." I'm not sure it's "always" disjunctive; there are times when "both would be acceptable, if not even better" can be inferred from the context.
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
7
"Or" is always disjunctive grammatically, which means that if the two NPs it disjoins are singular, the verb that follows is also singular: "George or Martha was murdered in Miami", but conjunctive grammatically gives "George and Martha were murdered in Miami". "My late mother-in-law couldn't read or write" (= could neither read nor write) (true fact) is similarly grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive because it means that she was unable to do both. More proof that terminology explains nothing unless it's precisely & clearly defined.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:19
I think the negation ("couldn't read or write") makes or semantically conjunctive in this phrase. Neither writing nor reading was {her métier / one of her skills} is grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:53
1
The Queen in chess can move diagonally as well. And a diagonal line is a "straight" line. So your last paragraph is uninformed or incorrect.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:04
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
In English, or is always disjunctive. There is no ambiguity.
It is either one or else it is the other. It is not both. That is why when it could be both, one always says “one or the other or both”. The or does not admit the possibility that both may apply. So you have to add or both if you want both to be a possibility.
In other words, it corresponds to the computer’s xor operation, not to the computer’s or operation. The English or is really an xor.
As Bill notes in a comment, it is always grammatically disjunctive. So “Either Peter or Paul is coming to dinner with Mary” demands a singular verb, and you should set two places at the table, not three.
If you said that in chess, the queen can move any number of unblocked spaces either vertically or horizontally, you know that she cannot do both at the same time. However, with your own game, I cannot say, because I do not know its rules. The question comes down to whether you have to move in a straight line in the game you are playing, and I do not know your game.
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:02
tchrist♦
108k28290462
4
I don't think the or in "You must be stupid or crazy to believe that!" is strictly exclusive.
– Andrew Lazarus
Dec 27 '12 at 3:19
5
Along with what @Andrew said, I can think of other examples where or would function more like anorthan anxor, like when a pro scout says, "We should try to get a quarterback who is strong or mobile," or when a woman says, "I'd like to marry a man who is handsome or rich." I'm not sure it's "always" disjunctive; there are times when "both would be acceptable, if not even better" can be inferred from the context.
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
7
"Or" is always disjunctive grammatically, which means that if the two NPs it disjoins are singular, the verb that follows is also singular: "George or Martha was murdered in Miami", but conjunctive grammatically gives "George and Martha were murdered in Miami". "My late mother-in-law couldn't read or write" (= could neither read nor write) (true fact) is similarly grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive because it means that she was unable to do both. More proof that terminology explains nothing unless it's precisely & clearly defined.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:19
I think the negation ("couldn't read or write") makes or semantically conjunctive in this phrase. Neither writing nor reading was {her métier / one of her skills} is grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:53
1
The Queen in chess can move diagonally as well. And a diagonal line is a "straight" line. So your last paragraph is uninformed or incorrect.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:04
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
In English, or is always disjunctive. There is no ambiguity.
It is either one or else it is the other. It is not both. That is why when it could be both, one always says “one or the other or both”. The or does not admit the possibility that both may apply. So you have to add or both if you want both to be a possibility.
In other words, it corresponds to the computer’s xor operation, not to the computer’s or operation. The English or is really an xor.
As Bill notes in a comment, it is always grammatically disjunctive. So “Either Peter or Paul is coming to dinner with Mary” demands a singular verb, and you should set two places at the table, not three.
If you said that in chess, the queen can move any number of unblocked spaces either vertically or horizontally, you know that she cannot do both at the same time. However, with your own game, I cannot say, because I do not know its rules. The question comes down to whether you have to move in a straight line in the game you are playing, and I do not know your game.
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:02
tchrist♦
108k28290462
In English, or is always disjunctive. There is no ambiguity.
It is either one or else it is the other. It is not both. That is why when it could be both, one always says “one or the other or both”. The or does not admit the possibility that both may apply. So you have to add or both if you want both to be a possibility.
In other words, it corresponds to the computer’s xor operation, not to the computer’s or operation. The English or is really an xor.
As Bill notes in a comment, it is always grammatically disjunctive. So “Either Peter or Paul is coming to dinner with Mary” demands a singular verb, and you should set two places at the table, not three.
If you said that in chess, the queen can move any number of unblocked spaces either vertically or horizontally, you know that she cannot do both at the same time. However, with your own game, I cannot say, because I do not know its rules. The question comes down to whether you have to move in a straight line in the game you are playing, and I do not know your game.
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:02
tchrist♦
108k28290462
edited Dec 27 '12 at 4:55
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:02
tchrist♦
108k28290462
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:02
tchrist♦
108k28290462
answered Dec 27 '12 at 3:02
tchrist♦
108k28290462
108k28290462
4
I don't think the or in "You must be stupid or crazy to believe that!" is strictly exclusive.
– Andrew Lazarus
Dec 27 '12 at 3:19
5
Along with what @Andrew said, I can think of other examples where or would function more like anorthan anxor, like when a pro scout says, "We should try to get a quarterback who is strong or mobile," or when a woman says, "I'd like to marry a man who is handsome or rich." I'm not sure it's "always" disjunctive; there are times when "both would be acceptable, if not even better" can be inferred from the context.
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
7
"Or" is always disjunctive grammatically, which means that if the two NPs it disjoins are singular, the verb that follows is also singular: "George or Martha was murdered in Miami", but conjunctive grammatically gives "George and Martha were murdered in Miami". "My late mother-in-law couldn't read or write" (= could neither read nor write) (true fact) is similarly grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive because it means that she was unable to do both. More proof that terminology explains nothing unless it's precisely & clearly defined.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:19
I think the negation ("couldn't read or write") makes or semantically conjunctive in this phrase. Neither writing nor reading was {her métier / one of her skills} is grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:53
1
The Queen in chess can move diagonally as well. And a diagonal line is a "straight" line. So your last paragraph is uninformed or incorrect.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:04
|
show 2 more comments
4
I don't think the or in "You must be stupid or crazy to believe that!" is strictly exclusive.
– Andrew Lazarus
Dec 27 '12 at 3:19
5
Along with what @Andrew said, I can think of other examples where or would function more like anorthan anxor, like when a pro scout says, "We should try to get a quarterback who is strong or mobile," or when a woman says, "I'd like to marry a man who is handsome or rich." I'm not sure it's "always" disjunctive; there are times when "both would be acceptable, if not even better" can be inferred from the context.
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
7
"Or" is always disjunctive grammatically, which means that if the two NPs it disjoins are singular, the verb that follows is also singular: "George or Martha was murdered in Miami", but conjunctive grammatically gives "George and Martha were murdered in Miami". "My late mother-in-law couldn't read or write" (= could neither read nor write) (true fact) is similarly grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive because it means that she was unable to do both. More proof that terminology explains nothing unless it's precisely & clearly defined.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:19
I think the negation ("couldn't read or write") makes or semantically conjunctive in this phrase. Neither writing nor reading was {her métier / one of her skills} is grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:53
1
The Queen in chess can move diagonally as well. And a diagonal line is a "straight" line. So your last paragraph is uninformed or incorrect.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:04
4
4
I don't think the or in "You must be stupid or crazy to believe that!" is strictly exclusive.
– Andrew Lazarus
Dec 27 '12 at 3:19
I don't think the or in "You must be stupid or crazy to believe that!" is strictly exclusive.
– Andrew Lazarus
Dec 27 '12 at 3:19
5
5
Along with what @Andrew said, I can think of other examples where or would function more like an
or than an xor, like when a pro scout says, "We should try to get a quarterback who is strong or mobile," or when a woman says, "I'd like to marry a man who is handsome or rich." I'm not sure it's "always" disjunctive; there are times when "both would be acceptable, if not even better" can be inferred from the context.– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
Along with what @Andrew said, I can think of other examples where or would function more like an
or than an xor, like when a pro scout says, "We should try to get a quarterback who is strong or mobile," or when a woman says, "I'd like to marry a man who is handsome or rich." I'm not sure it's "always" disjunctive; there are times when "both would be acceptable, if not even better" can be inferred from the context.– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:50
7
7
"Or" is always disjunctive grammatically, which means that if the two NPs it disjoins are singular, the verb that follows is also singular: "George or Martha was murdered in Miami", but conjunctive grammatically gives "George and Martha were murdered in Miami". "My late mother-in-law couldn't read or write" (= could neither read nor write) (true fact) is similarly grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive because it means that she was unable to do both. More proof that terminology explains nothing unless it's precisely & clearly defined.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:19
"Or" is always disjunctive grammatically, which means that if the two NPs it disjoins are singular, the verb that follows is also singular: "George or Martha was murdered in Miami", but conjunctive grammatically gives "George and Martha were murdered in Miami". "My late mother-in-law couldn't read or write" (= could neither read nor write) (true fact) is similarly grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive because it means that she was unable to do both. More proof that terminology explains nothing unless it's precisely & clearly defined.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:19
I think the negation ("couldn't read or write") makes or semantically conjunctive in this phrase. Neither writing nor reading was {her métier / one of her skills} is grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:53
I think the negation ("couldn't read or write") makes or semantically conjunctive in this phrase. Neither writing nor reading was {her métier / one of her skills} is grammatically disjunctive but semantically conjunctive.
– user21497
Dec 27 '12 at 4:53
1
1
The Queen in chess can move diagonally as well. And a diagonal line is a "straight" line. So your last paragraph is uninformed or incorrect.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:04
The Queen in chess can move diagonally as well. And a diagonal line is a "straight" line. So your last paragraph is uninformed or incorrect.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:04
|
show 2 more comments
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17
The linguists here may not agree, but, in matters like this, my marriage counselor would advise you to go with whichever interpretation she thinks is correct. :^)
– J.R.
Dec 27 '12 at 3:07
2
“Roll a dice”? You mean roll a die, right?
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:20
You might look at this question.
– tchrist♦
Dec 27 '12 at 3:48
1
For the interpretation of your game rules, I would presume that if you roll a 5, you move 5 spaces in one direction out of the set (up/down/left/right). You don't move 2 up and then 3 left, nor any other combination totaling 5 (and you certainly don't move 5 up AND 5 left).
– Hellion
Dec 27 '12 at 16:17
1
AND is often used in English to mean OR: "A discount is given to people under age 12 AND people over age 65." Obviously, one cannot be both. I warn my programming students about this in terms of gathering specifications. Nail them down.
– user126158
Mar 23 '16 at 2:10