Slaves who have slaves who have slaves
$begingroup$
NOTE
It has been suggested that I change the word 'slave' to something
else, perhaps 'servant'? My intention is to describe a person who is
required to work for someone else with no pay. There is no desire for
inhumane behaviour to be endemic - undoubtedly some people will want
to take advantage of the system more than others.
I reserve the right to change the word if necessary. It won't change the nature of the question.
Background
In this medieval society there is a class of slaves. Let's call them S.
The S are servants of the R and the R in turn are servants of the Q.
The S are masters of the T and the T are masters of the U.
Thus every group known about by the S is both enslaved to one group and master to another in a hierarchy.
The catch
What nobody knows about is that this is a ploy by the Grand Wizard. He has created a circular city of huge proportions and the masters/slaves are distributed around it. They are not allowed to travel far and so they don't realise that the system is actually circular. Thus the A are the servants of the Z. This means that every single group is both slave and master.
There are no chairs in the following picture
Each person is supporting the one in front. If you were to put an opaque cylinder in the middle and tell everyone there was a chair supporting 'the last person', they could easily all believe it.
Question
I'm certain that some people would find personal loopholes, e.g. working lazily for a weak master while being simultaneously a tyrant to those below them.
However apart from this unevenness, what, if anything, could stop this circular system of master/slave from working?
Notes
It is not allowed for a servant given a task by a master to pass that task on to one of their own slaves. They must do it themselves and get their own slaves to do their tasks for them so that they can fulfil their masters' wishes.
People must perform their own duties as well as serving others. Thus they can be accountants and gardeners. Some can also be craftspeople or artists in their spare time and make extra money. They pay taxes to the Grand Wizard.
Some people having been objecting in comments that you can't serve someone else and have another occupation. Yes you can!! You have a slave to help you. Look at it this way. In modern society most people who work full time also have to come home and do their own laundry, vacuuming, tidying, paperwork etc. Instead you come home from work but do your master's laundry, vacuuming, tidying, paperwork etc. (or whatever they prefer you to do). Thus no-one necessarily works more in total than an average person would. Of course some people will exploit the system but that's true of any system.
Example
My master tells me to polish his boots. I must do it myself. Therefore I instruct my slave to polish my boots (or iron my shirt or whatever), so that I have time to polish my master's boots. This continues around the circle. Note that each of us also has their day job.
reality-check medieval slavery
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
NOTE
It has been suggested that I change the word 'slave' to something
else, perhaps 'servant'? My intention is to describe a person who is
required to work for someone else with no pay. There is no desire for
inhumane behaviour to be endemic - undoubtedly some people will want
to take advantage of the system more than others.
I reserve the right to change the word if necessary. It won't change the nature of the question.
Background
In this medieval society there is a class of slaves. Let's call them S.
The S are servants of the R and the R in turn are servants of the Q.
The S are masters of the T and the T are masters of the U.
Thus every group known about by the S is both enslaved to one group and master to another in a hierarchy.
The catch
What nobody knows about is that this is a ploy by the Grand Wizard. He has created a circular city of huge proportions and the masters/slaves are distributed around it. They are not allowed to travel far and so they don't realise that the system is actually circular. Thus the A are the servants of the Z. This means that every single group is both slave and master.
There are no chairs in the following picture
Each person is supporting the one in front. If you were to put an opaque cylinder in the middle and tell everyone there was a chair supporting 'the last person', they could easily all believe it.
Question
I'm certain that some people would find personal loopholes, e.g. working lazily for a weak master while being simultaneously a tyrant to those below them.
However apart from this unevenness, what, if anything, could stop this circular system of master/slave from working?
Notes
It is not allowed for a servant given a task by a master to pass that task on to one of their own slaves. They must do it themselves and get their own slaves to do their tasks for them so that they can fulfil their masters' wishes.
People must perform their own duties as well as serving others. Thus they can be accountants and gardeners. Some can also be craftspeople or artists in their spare time and make extra money. They pay taxes to the Grand Wizard.
Some people having been objecting in comments that you can't serve someone else and have another occupation. Yes you can!! You have a slave to help you. Look at it this way. In modern society most people who work full time also have to come home and do their own laundry, vacuuming, tidying, paperwork etc. Instead you come home from work but do your master's laundry, vacuuming, tidying, paperwork etc. (or whatever they prefer you to do). Thus no-one necessarily works more in total than an average person would. Of course some people will exploit the system but that's true of any system.
Example
My master tells me to polish his boots. I must do it myself. Therefore I instruct my slave to polish my boots (or iron my shirt or whatever), so that I have time to polish my master's boots. This continues around the circle. Note that each of us also has their day job.
reality-check medieval slavery
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– James♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
NOTE
It has been suggested that I change the word 'slave' to something
else, perhaps 'servant'? My intention is to describe a person who is
required to work for someone else with no pay. There is no desire for
inhumane behaviour to be endemic - undoubtedly some people will want
to take advantage of the system more than others.
I reserve the right to change the word if necessary. It won't change the nature of the question.
Background
In this medieval society there is a class of slaves. Let's call them S.
The S are servants of the R and the R in turn are servants of the Q.
The S are masters of the T and the T are masters of the U.
Thus every group known about by the S is both enslaved to one group and master to another in a hierarchy.
The catch
What nobody knows about is that this is a ploy by the Grand Wizard. He has created a circular city of huge proportions and the masters/slaves are distributed around it. They are not allowed to travel far and so they don't realise that the system is actually circular. Thus the A are the servants of the Z. This means that every single group is both slave and master.
There are no chairs in the following picture
Each person is supporting the one in front. If you were to put an opaque cylinder in the middle and tell everyone there was a chair supporting 'the last person', they could easily all believe it.
Question
I'm certain that some people would find personal loopholes, e.g. working lazily for a weak master while being simultaneously a tyrant to those below them.
However apart from this unevenness, what, if anything, could stop this circular system of master/slave from working?
Notes
It is not allowed for a servant given a task by a master to pass that task on to one of their own slaves. They must do it themselves and get their own slaves to do their tasks for them so that they can fulfil their masters' wishes.
People must perform their own duties as well as serving others. Thus they can be accountants and gardeners. Some can also be craftspeople or artists in their spare time and make extra money. They pay taxes to the Grand Wizard.
Some people having been objecting in comments that you can't serve someone else and have another occupation. Yes you can!! You have a slave to help you. Look at it this way. In modern society most people who work full time also have to come home and do their own laundry, vacuuming, tidying, paperwork etc. Instead you come home from work but do your master's laundry, vacuuming, tidying, paperwork etc. (or whatever they prefer you to do). Thus no-one necessarily works more in total than an average person would. Of course some people will exploit the system but that's true of any system.
Example
My master tells me to polish his boots. I must do it myself. Therefore I instruct my slave to polish my boots (or iron my shirt or whatever), so that I have time to polish my master's boots. This continues around the circle. Note that each of us also has their day job.
reality-check medieval slavery
$endgroup$
NOTE
It has been suggested that I change the word 'slave' to something
else, perhaps 'servant'? My intention is to describe a person who is
required to work for someone else with no pay. There is no desire for
inhumane behaviour to be endemic - undoubtedly some people will want
to take advantage of the system more than others.
I reserve the right to change the word if necessary. It won't change the nature of the question.
Background
In this medieval society there is a class of slaves. Let's call them S.
The S are servants of the R and the R in turn are servants of the Q.
The S are masters of the T and the T are masters of the U.
Thus every group known about by the S is both enslaved to one group and master to another in a hierarchy.
The catch
What nobody knows about is that this is a ploy by the Grand Wizard. He has created a circular city of huge proportions and the masters/slaves are distributed around it. They are not allowed to travel far and so they don't realise that the system is actually circular. Thus the A are the servants of the Z. This means that every single group is both slave and master.
There are no chairs in the following picture
Each person is supporting the one in front. If you were to put an opaque cylinder in the middle and tell everyone there was a chair supporting 'the last person', they could easily all believe it.
Question
I'm certain that some people would find personal loopholes, e.g. working lazily for a weak master while being simultaneously a tyrant to those below them.
However apart from this unevenness, what, if anything, could stop this circular system of master/slave from working?
Notes
It is not allowed for a servant given a task by a master to pass that task on to one of their own slaves. They must do it themselves and get their own slaves to do their tasks for them so that they can fulfil their masters' wishes.
People must perform their own duties as well as serving others. Thus they can be accountants and gardeners. Some can also be craftspeople or artists in their spare time and make extra money. They pay taxes to the Grand Wizard.
Some people having been objecting in comments that you can't serve someone else and have another occupation. Yes you can!! You have a slave to help you. Look at it this way. In modern society most people who work full time also have to come home and do their own laundry, vacuuming, tidying, paperwork etc. Instead you come home from work but do your master's laundry, vacuuming, tidying, paperwork etc. (or whatever they prefer you to do). Thus no-one necessarily works more in total than an average person would. Of course some people will exploit the system but that's true of any system.
Example
My master tells me to polish his boots. I must do it myself. Therefore I instruct my slave to polish my boots (or iron my shirt or whatever), so that I have time to polish my master's boots. This continues around the circle. Note that each of us also has their day job.
reality-check medieval slavery
reality-check medieval slavery
edited 5 hours ago
chasly from UK
asked 11 hours ago
chasly from UKchasly from UK
16.5k774147
16.5k774147
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– James♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– James♦
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– James♦
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– James♦
8 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
A picture is beginning to form of this society. It is interesting, and it has a weak spot.
The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. Previously, one was either an independent merchant/businessman or a slave. Most slaves were either apprentices (intending one day to be their own independent merchant/craftsman) or household servants. It was the success of the individual merchant/craftsman that determined the level of 'maintenance' of his servants. The exceptions were people who worked for the court - armies, bureaucrats, pencil pushers - who were necessary for the huge operation of the state. Servants (or 'slaves', same thing) were maintained by their masters, but the numbers of state 'servants' were so vast that they were 'paid' in lieu of being 'maintained' (they could not all be 'fed' by one person). A hierarchy of 'ownership', where the king maintained those in the court, who maintained those bureaucrats below them, who maintained the remote bureaucrats, who maintained the 'go-fors' below them, and so forth. (The beginning of the 'framework' of the modern corporation).
Your system seems to completely eliminate the individual craftsman/merchant. Everything is made or done for the person 'above' you. And they sell it at market for the person above them. (Much like in a huge corporation today - the fruits of your labour are for the benefit of the person above you, and you are simply 'maintained' (paid) by the corporation for doing so, except that there is no one at the top of the food chain, no 'Mr. Big'.) The wealth of the economy just keeps going around in a circle. Indeed, everyone would be maintained, and in turn maintain, someone else.
But no matter how you make it a 'circle', it belies the point that everyone is indeed working for the Grand Wizard, who is the ultimate planner.
EDIT It would seem that, the 'office of the Wizard' would need 'injection points' throughout the circle. That is, agents of the Wizard who would appear to be normally part of the master-slave chain, but who would indeed be under the direction of the Wizard, to inject planning, scheduling, and grand objectives equally around the circle, so that there were no signs of an ultimate 'head office' except some nebulous 'way above my servant-grade level' that remained forever at an unreachable 'corporate' level. This system would work only if the agents of the Wizard Head Office' were completely hidden from the public. END EDIT
In such a scenario, there would not seem to be any room for the independent craftsman/merchant, the person who makes something and then sells it at the market. He neither takes direction from a 'master' nor does he maintain a 'slave'.
So your weakness would be in the rise of this category.
As more and more of this 'special group' arose, they would start to break the chain. Although they would have slaves themselves, they would not have masters. It was, in fact, the rise of the merchant class that caused the demise of the British monarchical system, and the subjugation of the monarch to the whims of the newly wealthy merchantmen.
The continuation of the system would, indeed, seem to depend on the ability of the Grand Wizard to prevent this independence, and to somehow heavily 'consequence' anyone if they became independent of the chain.
EDIT
For insight into the independent merchant/craftsman, it is useful to research the rise and fall of guilds. For instance The Rise, Persistence and Decline of Merchant Guilds. Re-thinking the Comparative Study of Commercial Institutions in Pre-modern Europe to aid in understanding how the rapid adoption of 'paid employment' and 'vertical integration' of production led to the demise of the independent merchant/craftsman as the main driver of production in the 17th century and beyond.
Specifically from the above reference
It seems appropriate to think about commercial institutions as a
continuum along the lines suggested by Williamson. At one end, there
is a perfectly atomised market in which anonymous buyers and sellers
meet in fleeting encounters of voluntary exchange. At the other end,
all risks and decisions are incorporated into one large hierarchically
organised and vertically integrated firm. Human ingenuity has produced
endless permutations along the continuum between those two points,
characterised by more or less anonymity, hierarchy, market control,
political involvement and so forth. Following Williamson’s distinction
between markets and hierarchies, we view social networks, nations,
consulates, guilds, and regulated companies as institutions that
perform the same basic economic function – the governance of
transactions – and differ merely in the degree of control delegated to
fellow merchants. This approach allows us to include merchant
communities operating in different parts of Europe over a very long
time period (1000-1800) in one data panel.17
It seems that the question is proposing a 'hierarchical' system that ultimately wraps around on itself.
EDIT
As a side note, it seems the first use of the word 'employ' was in 1580
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
"The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. " That's about as wrong as you can get. Mercenary soldiers, who are paid for their time and service, are arguably the second-oldest profession. See, for instance, the Anabasis (400 BC).
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
craftsmen it doesn't function if any division of labor exists, which means it can't be a city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast Your 'mercenary soldiers' were agents of the Courts (kings or whatever). I completely covered that.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John Bakers bake, weavers weave, masons build, carpenters make furniture, blacksmiths blacksmith. Still a division of labor, except there is no mass production. No one 'paid' anyone to make something for them, except as the end consumer.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JustinThymetheSecond except they can't because they either have to farm for the next guy in line, and that takes the majority of their time, an means they can't live in the city. or one group is stuck at the bottom as farmers and their "servants" don't have to and can live in the city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
this doesn't work. it breaks down instantly.
Social tiers work because people do different things, there are farmers and people who can tell farmers what to do. Division of labor is inescapable and absolutely essential to the existence of a city. The system breaks down almost instantly as no one wants to farm. So the first group ordered to farm gets stuck with the lard labor and whomever they can order become an aristocracy. Because the farmers can't actually offload any labor. Some jobs are inherently less desirable, with less free time and harder labor, this is especially true prior to industrialization.
Cities are not self sufficient they need a steady influx of food from farms. but a farmer has to produce more food than they can eat otherwise there is not other jobs, everyone is a farmer, no one is backsmith, or a guard. And that means you don't have a city anymore. The backbone of feudalism is the people who farm vs the people who control farmers. This division happens almost immediately in your scenario.
If you give up on the idea of a city they everyone farms just enough to feed the next person in line, but that means that is all they do, they are all subsistence farmers with a weird sharing mechanism. Farming efficiency scales drastically, that is growing half a acre of crops does not take half the labor, in fact it takes substantially more than half. If everyone farms just enough to feed the next guy in line, there ARE no other jobs, and there is no city just circular ring of farms, up until the first shortage, then there is just a war.
As Alex points out, the only way you can have both is if the "slave" part of your daily activities are some minor they don't really impact your job, AKA you can't order someone to farm or anything specialized only things everyone does. In which case your back to not having a system supporting specialized labor. You then need real slaves and serfs to do the undesirable jobs.
Labor in a medieval society require specialization, but different "jobs" have different desirabilities and labor requirements. If people can be ordered to do undesirable jobs then people are getting stuck at the bottom and you have real stratification, If they can't be ordered to do such things then this has no impact on division of labor, and little impact on task period, so you need a different system for division of labor.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
(a) I have clarified this in Note 3. (b) Example: If I did my neighbour's laundry and my neighbour did my laundry then both of us would have done some laundry. That's no different form each of us doing our own laundry so no-one has worked any harder. That is a circle of two. I have simply made it a circle of 26. A circle of one is of course doing your own laundry.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
This does not actually address the problem. city societies are not held up by people doing laundry, it is supported by people farming, mining, lumberjacking, labor intensive jobs, jobs with little free time. jobs that can't be evenly divided and allow for other jobs due to scaling.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John People STILL do all of these things. What differs is how they are DIRECTED to do all of these things - by the state, by their master, by themselves, or by an 'employer'.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chasly from UK this is Ok if "slaves" need to contribute only a fraction of their time to serve their masters. If slaving becomes a full-time employment, system breaks in the way John has described.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Alexanders explanation is it in a nut shell, it only works if a majority of the labor does not involve slave tasks. but then you are right back to feudalism with a weird extra thing tacked on that has little impact on daily life.
$endgroup$
– John
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to other objections, I'd add hierarchy. Not in the sense of who owns who, but of how many slaves an individual master owns. It's clear that, in order to fulfill the OP, on average each person can only own one slave. And it's not at all clear that this is going to make a whole lot of sense.
Somehow, the entire system needs to act like
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes. On average each person has one slave. Maybe servant would be a better term. It gives everyone the sense that they are in the middle of the hierarchy (a hierarchy that doesn't exist) and thus keeps them under control for fear of being demoted. There are terrible rumours about what happens if you get to be in the lowest class.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - "Yes. On average each person has one slave." The problem is, while hierachies imply subordination, I can't think of one (of more than two levels) which has equal populations in each layer. If, for instance, a level-one slave raises enough food for himself, and the master takes it all, if he then orders the level-2 slave to give him all of his food, the master can then take that as well. If the master orders the level-one to work all day in the field, the level-one cannot oversee the level-2 - he's too busy.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The Escher waterfall is great but it's not relevant. My system is just an extension of 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' It is simply a circle of people all scratching each other's backs. I think a more correct picture would be this one. media.gettyimages.com/photos/…
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - Slavery is not mutual backscratching. And I can't find a more appropriate version of your image (which involves unnatural sexual acts by all of those smiling back-scratchers), but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to post it if I did.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you think people sitting on each others' knee is automatically sexual then you've been watching the wrong videos ;-)
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
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$begingroup$
A picture is beginning to form of this society. It is interesting, and it has a weak spot.
The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. Previously, one was either an independent merchant/businessman or a slave. Most slaves were either apprentices (intending one day to be their own independent merchant/craftsman) or household servants. It was the success of the individual merchant/craftsman that determined the level of 'maintenance' of his servants. The exceptions were people who worked for the court - armies, bureaucrats, pencil pushers - who were necessary for the huge operation of the state. Servants (or 'slaves', same thing) were maintained by their masters, but the numbers of state 'servants' were so vast that they were 'paid' in lieu of being 'maintained' (they could not all be 'fed' by one person). A hierarchy of 'ownership', where the king maintained those in the court, who maintained those bureaucrats below them, who maintained the remote bureaucrats, who maintained the 'go-fors' below them, and so forth. (The beginning of the 'framework' of the modern corporation).
Your system seems to completely eliminate the individual craftsman/merchant. Everything is made or done for the person 'above' you. And they sell it at market for the person above them. (Much like in a huge corporation today - the fruits of your labour are for the benefit of the person above you, and you are simply 'maintained' (paid) by the corporation for doing so, except that there is no one at the top of the food chain, no 'Mr. Big'.) The wealth of the economy just keeps going around in a circle. Indeed, everyone would be maintained, and in turn maintain, someone else.
But no matter how you make it a 'circle', it belies the point that everyone is indeed working for the Grand Wizard, who is the ultimate planner.
EDIT It would seem that, the 'office of the Wizard' would need 'injection points' throughout the circle. That is, agents of the Wizard who would appear to be normally part of the master-slave chain, but who would indeed be under the direction of the Wizard, to inject planning, scheduling, and grand objectives equally around the circle, so that there were no signs of an ultimate 'head office' except some nebulous 'way above my servant-grade level' that remained forever at an unreachable 'corporate' level. This system would work only if the agents of the Wizard Head Office' were completely hidden from the public. END EDIT
In such a scenario, there would not seem to be any room for the independent craftsman/merchant, the person who makes something and then sells it at the market. He neither takes direction from a 'master' nor does he maintain a 'slave'.
So your weakness would be in the rise of this category.
As more and more of this 'special group' arose, they would start to break the chain. Although they would have slaves themselves, they would not have masters. It was, in fact, the rise of the merchant class that caused the demise of the British monarchical system, and the subjugation of the monarch to the whims of the newly wealthy merchantmen.
The continuation of the system would, indeed, seem to depend on the ability of the Grand Wizard to prevent this independence, and to somehow heavily 'consequence' anyone if they became independent of the chain.
EDIT
For insight into the independent merchant/craftsman, it is useful to research the rise and fall of guilds. For instance The Rise, Persistence and Decline of Merchant Guilds. Re-thinking the Comparative Study of Commercial Institutions in Pre-modern Europe to aid in understanding how the rapid adoption of 'paid employment' and 'vertical integration' of production led to the demise of the independent merchant/craftsman as the main driver of production in the 17th century and beyond.
Specifically from the above reference
It seems appropriate to think about commercial institutions as a
continuum along the lines suggested by Williamson. At one end, there
is a perfectly atomised market in which anonymous buyers and sellers
meet in fleeting encounters of voluntary exchange. At the other end,
all risks and decisions are incorporated into one large hierarchically
organised and vertically integrated firm. Human ingenuity has produced
endless permutations along the continuum between those two points,
characterised by more or less anonymity, hierarchy, market control,
political involvement and so forth. Following Williamson’s distinction
between markets and hierarchies, we view social networks, nations,
consulates, guilds, and regulated companies as institutions that
perform the same basic economic function – the governance of
transactions – and differ merely in the degree of control delegated to
fellow merchants. This approach allows us to include merchant
communities operating in different parts of Europe over a very long
time period (1000-1800) in one data panel.17
It seems that the question is proposing a 'hierarchical' system that ultimately wraps around on itself.
EDIT
As a side note, it seems the first use of the word 'employ' was in 1580
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
"The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. " That's about as wrong as you can get. Mercenary soldiers, who are paid for their time and service, are arguably the second-oldest profession. See, for instance, the Anabasis (400 BC).
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
craftsmen it doesn't function if any division of labor exists, which means it can't be a city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast Your 'mercenary soldiers' were agents of the Courts (kings or whatever). I completely covered that.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John Bakers bake, weavers weave, masons build, carpenters make furniture, blacksmiths blacksmith. Still a division of labor, except there is no mass production. No one 'paid' anyone to make something for them, except as the end consumer.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JustinThymetheSecond except they can't because they either have to farm for the next guy in line, and that takes the majority of their time, an means they can't live in the city. or one group is stuck at the bottom as farmers and their "servants" don't have to and can live in the city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
A picture is beginning to form of this society. It is interesting, and it has a weak spot.
The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. Previously, one was either an independent merchant/businessman or a slave. Most slaves were either apprentices (intending one day to be their own independent merchant/craftsman) or household servants. It was the success of the individual merchant/craftsman that determined the level of 'maintenance' of his servants. The exceptions were people who worked for the court - armies, bureaucrats, pencil pushers - who were necessary for the huge operation of the state. Servants (or 'slaves', same thing) were maintained by their masters, but the numbers of state 'servants' were so vast that they were 'paid' in lieu of being 'maintained' (they could not all be 'fed' by one person). A hierarchy of 'ownership', where the king maintained those in the court, who maintained those bureaucrats below them, who maintained the remote bureaucrats, who maintained the 'go-fors' below them, and so forth. (The beginning of the 'framework' of the modern corporation).
Your system seems to completely eliminate the individual craftsman/merchant. Everything is made or done for the person 'above' you. And they sell it at market for the person above them. (Much like in a huge corporation today - the fruits of your labour are for the benefit of the person above you, and you are simply 'maintained' (paid) by the corporation for doing so, except that there is no one at the top of the food chain, no 'Mr. Big'.) The wealth of the economy just keeps going around in a circle. Indeed, everyone would be maintained, and in turn maintain, someone else.
But no matter how you make it a 'circle', it belies the point that everyone is indeed working for the Grand Wizard, who is the ultimate planner.
EDIT It would seem that, the 'office of the Wizard' would need 'injection points' throughout the circle. That is, agents of the Wizard who would appear to be normally part of the master-slave chain, but who would indeed be under the direction of the Wizard, to inject planning, scheduling, and grand objectives equally around the circle, so that there were no signs of an ultimate 'head office' except some nebulous 'way above my servant-grade level' that remained forever at an unreachable 'corporate' level. This system would work only if the agents of the Wizard Head Office' were completely hidden from the public. END EDIT
In such a scenario, there would not seem to be any room for the independent craftsman/merchant, the person who makes something and then sells it at the market. He neither takes direction from a 'master' nor does he maintain a 'slave'.
So your weakness would be in the rise of this category.
As more and more of this 'special group' arose, they would start to break the chain. Although they would have slaves themselves, they would not have masters. It was, in fact, the rise of the merchant class that caused the demise of the British monarchical system, and the subjugation of the monarch to the whims of the newly wealthy merchantmen.
The continuation of the system would, indeed, seem to depend on the ability of the Grand Wizard to prevent this independence, and to somehow heavily 'consequence' anyone if they became independent of the chain.
EDIT
For insight into the independent merchant/craftsman, it is useful to research the rise and fall of guilds. For instance The Rise, Persistence and Decline of Merchant Guilds. Re-thinking the Comparative Study of Commercial Institutions in Pre-modern Europe to aid in understanding how the rapid adoption of 'paid employment' and 'vertical integration' of production led to the demise of the independent merchant/craftsman as the main driver of production in the 17th century and beyond.
Specifically from the above reference
It seems appropriate to think about commercial institutions as a
continuum along the lines suggested by Williamson. At one end, there
is a perfectly atomised market in which anonymous buyers and sellers
meet in fleeting encounters of voluntary exchange. At the other end,
all risks and decisions are incorporated into one large hierarchically
organised and vertically integrated firm. Human ingenuity has produced
endless permutations along the continuum between those two points,
characterised by more or less anonymity, hierarchy, market control,
political involvement and so forth. Following Williamson’s distinction
between markets and hierarchies, we view social networks, nations,
consulates, guilds, and regulated companies as institutions that
perform the same basic economic function – the governance of
transactions – and differ merely in the degree of control delegated to
fellow merchants. This approach allows us to include merchant
communities operating in different parts of Europe over a very long
time period (1000-1800) in one data panel.17
It seems that the question is proposing a 'hierarchical' system that ultimately wraps around on itself.
EDIT
As a side note, it seems the first use of the word 'employ' was in 1580
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
"The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. " That's about as wrong as you can get. Mercenary soldiers, who are paid for their time and service, are arguably the second-oldest profession. See, for instance, the Anabasis (400 BC).
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
craftsmen it doesn't function if any division of labor exists, which means it can't be a city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast Your 'mercenary soldiers' were agents of the Courts (kings or whatever). I completely covered that.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John Bakers bake, weavers weave, masons build, carpenters make furniture, blacksmiths blacksmith. Still a division of labor, except there is no mass production. No one 'paid' anyone to make something for them, except as the end consumer.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JustinThymetheSecond except they can't because they either have to farm for the next guy in line, and that takes the majority of their time, an means they can't live in the city. or one group is stuck at the bottom as farmers and their "servants" don't have to and can live in the city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
A picture is beginning to form of this society. It is interesting, and it has a weak spot.
The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. Previously, one was either an independent merchant/businessman or a slave. Most slaves were either apprentices (intending one day to be their own independent merchant/craftsman) or household servants. It was the success of the individual merchant/craftsman that determined the level of 'maintenance' of his servants. The exceptions were people who worked for the court - armies, bureaucrats, pencil pushers - who were necessary for the huge operation of the state. Servants (or 'slaves', same thing) were maintained by their masters, but the numbers of state 'servants' were so vast that they were 'paid' in lieu of being 'maintained' (they could not all be 'fed' by one person). A hierarchy of 'ownership', where the king maintained those in the court, who maintained those bureaucrats below them, who maintained the remote bureaucrats, who maintained the 'go-fors' below them, and so forth. (The beginning of the 'framework' of the modern corporation).
Your system seems to completely eliminate the individual craftsman/merchant. Everything is made or done for the person 'above' you. And they sell it at market for the person above them. (Much like in a huge corporation today - the fruits of your labour are for the benefit of the person above you, and you are simply 'maintained' (paid) by the corporation for doing so, except that there is no one at the top of the food chain, no 'Mr. Big'.) The wealth of the economy just keeps going around in a circle. Indeed, everyone would be maintained, and in turn maintain, someone else.
But no matter how you make it a 'circle', it belies the point that everyone is indeed working for the Grand Wizard, who is the ultimate planner.
EDIT It would seem that, the 'office of the Wizard' would need 'injection points' throughout the circle. That is, agents of the Wizard who would appear to be normally part of the master-slave chain, but who would indeed be under the direction of the Wizard, to inject planning, scheduling, and grand objectives equally around the circle, so that there were no signs of an ultimate 'head office' except some nebulous 'way above my servant-grade level' that remained forever at an unreachable 'corporate' level. This system would work only if the agents of the Wizard Head Office' were completely hidden from the public. END EDIT
In such a scenario, there would not seem to be any room for the independent craftsman/merchant, the person who makes something and then sells it at the market. He neither takes direction from a 'master' nor does he maintain a 'slave'.
So your weakness would be in the rise of this category.
As more and more of this 'special group' arose, they would start to break the chain. Although they would have slaves themselves, they would not have masters. It was, in fact, the rise of the merchant class that caused the demise of the British monarchical system, and the subjugation of the monarch to the whims of the newly wealthy merchantmen.
The continuation of the system would, indeed, seem to depend on the ability of the Grand Wizard to prevent this independence, and to somehow heavily 'consequence' anyone if they became independent of the chain.
EDIT
For insight into the independent merchant/craftsman, it is useful to research the rise and fall of guilds. For instance The Rise, Persistence and Decline of Merchant Guilds. Re-thinking the Comparative Study of Commercial Institutions in Pre-modern Europe to aid in understanding how the rapid adoption of 'paid employment' and 'vertical integration' of production led to the demise of the independent merchant/craftsman as the main driver of production in the 17th century and beyond.
Specifically from the above reference
It seems appropriate to think about commercial institutions as a
continuum along the lines suggested by Williamson. At one end, there
is a perfectly atomised market in which anonymous buyers and sellers
meet in fleeting encounters of voluntary exchange. At the other end,
all risks and decisions are incorporated into one large hierarchically
organised and vertically integrated firm. Human ingenuity has produced
endless permutations along the continuum between those two points,
characterised by more or less anonymity, hierarchy, market control,
political involvement and so forth. Following Williamson’s distinction
between markets and hierarchies, we view social networks, nations,
consulates, guilds, and regulated companies as institutions that
perform the same basic economic function – the governance of
transactions – and differ merely in the degree of control delegated to
fellow merchants. This approach allows us to include merchant
communities operating in different parts of Europe over a very long
time period (1000-1800) in one data panel.17
It seems that the question is proposing a 'hierarchical' system that ultimately wraps around on itself.
EDIT
As a side note, it seems the first use of the word 'employ' was in 1580
$endgroup$
A picture is beginning to form of this society. It is interesting, and it has a weak spot.
The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. Previously, one was either an independent merchant/businessman or a slave. Most slaves were either apprentices (intending one day to be their own independent merchant/craftsman) or household servants. It was the success of the individual merchant/craftsman that determined the level of 'maintenance' of his servants. The exceptions were people who worked for the court - armies, bureaucrats, pencil pushers - who were necessary for the huge operation of the state. Servants (or 'slaves', same thing) were maintained by their masters, but the numbers of state 'servants' were so vast that they were 'paid' in lieu of being 'maintained' (they could not all be 'fed' by one person). A hierarchy of 'ownership', where the king maintained those in the court, who maintained those bureaucrats below them, who maintained the remote bureaucrats, who maintained the 'go-fors' below them, and so forth. (The beginning of the 'framework' of the modern corporation).
Your system seems to completely eliminate the individual craftsman/merchant. Everything is made or done for the person 'above' you. And they sell it at market for the person above them. (Much like in a huge corporation today - the fruits of your labour are for the benefit of the person above you, and you are simply 'maintained' (paid) by the corporation for doing so, except that there is no one at the top of the food chain, no 'Mr. Big'.) The wealth of the economy just keeps going around in a circle. Indeed, everyone would be maintained, and in turn maintain, someone else.
But no matter how you make it a 'circle', it belies the point that everyone is indeed working for the Grand Wizard, who is the ultimate planner.
EDIT It would seem that, the 'office of the Wizard' would need 'injection points' throughout the circle. That is, agents of the Wizard who would appear to be normally part of the master-slave chain, but who would indeed be under the direction of the Wizard, to inject planning, scheduling, and grand objectives equally around the circle, so that there were no signs of an ultimate 'head office' except some nebulous 'way above my servant-grade level' that remained forever at an unreachable 'corporate' level. This system would work only if the agents of the Wizard Head Office' were completely hidden from the public. END EDIT
In such a scenario, there would not seem to be any room for the independent craftsman/merchant, the person who makes something and then sells it at the market. He neither takes direction from a 'master' nor does he maintain a 'slave'.
So your weakness would be in the rise of this category.
As more and more of this 'special group' arose, they would start to break the chain. Although they would have slaves themselves, they would not have masters. It was, in fact, the rise of the merchant class that caused the demise of the British monarchical system, and the subjugation of the monarch to the whims of the newly wealthy merchantmen.
The continuation of the system would, indeed, seem to depend on the ability of the Grand Wizard to prevent this independence, and to somehow heavily 'consequence' anyone if they became independent of the chain.
EDIT
For insight into the independent merchant/craftsman, it is useful to research the rise and fall of guilds. For instance The Rise, Persistence and Decline of Merchant Guilds. Re-thinking the Comparative Study of Commercial Institutions in Pre-modern Europe to aid in understanding how the rapid adoption of 'paid employment' and 'vertical integration' of production led to the demise of the independent merchant/craftsman as the main driver of production in the 17th century and beyond.
Specifically from the above reference
It seems appropriate to think about commercial institutions as a
continuum along the lines suggested by Williamson. At one end, there
is a perfectly atomised market in which anonymous buyers and sellers
meet in fleeting encounters of voluntary exchange. At the other end,
all risks and decisions are incorporated into one large hierarchically
organised and vertically integrated firm. Human ingenuity has produced
endless permutations along the continuum between those two points,
characterised by more or less anonymity, hierarchy, market control,
political involvement and so forth. Following Williamson’s distinction
between markets and hierarchies, we view social networks, nations,
consulates, guilds, and regulated companies as institutions that
perform the same basic economic function – the governance of
transactions – and differ merely in the degree of control delegated to
fellow merchants. This approach allows us to include merchant
communities operating in different parts of Europe over a very long
time period (1000-1800) in one data panel.17
It seems that the question is proposing a 'hierarchical' system that ultimately wraps around on itself.
EDIT
As a side note, it seems the first use of the word 'employ' was in 1580
edited 8 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
Justin Thyme the SecondJustin Thyme the Second
3125
3125
2
$begingroup$
"The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. " That's about as wrong as you can get. Mercenary soldiers, who are paid for their time and service, are arguably the second-oldest profession. See, for instance, the Anabasis (400 BC).
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
craftsmen it doesn't function if any division of labor exists, which means it can't be a city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast Your 'mercenary soldiers' were agents of the Courts (kings or whatever). I completely covered that.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John Bakers bake, weavers weave, masons build, carpenters make furniture, blacksmiths blacksmith. Still a division of labor, except there is no mass production. No one 'paid' anyone to make something for them, except as the end consumer.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JustinThymetheSecond except they can't because they either have to farm for the next guy in line, and that takes the majority of their time, an means they can't live in the city. or one group is stuck at the bottom as farmers and their "servants" don't have to and can live in the city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
2
$begingroup$
"The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. " That's about as wrong as you can get. Mercenary soldiers, who are paid for their time and service, are arguably the second-oldest profession. See, for instance, the Anabasis (400 BC).
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
craftsmen it doesn't function if any division of labor exists, which means it can't be a city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast Your 'mercenary soldiers' were agents of the Courts (kings or whatever). I completely covered that.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John Bakers bake, weavers weave, masons build, carpenters make furniture, blacksmiths blacksmith. Still a division of labor, except there is no mass production. No one 'paid' anyone to make something for them, except as the end consumer.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JustinThymetheSecond except they can't because they either have to farm for the next guy in line, and that takes the majority of their time, an means they can't live in the city. or one group is stuck at the bottom as farmers and their "servants" don't have to and can live in the city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
"The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. " That's about as wrong as you can get. Mercenary soldiers, who are paid for their time and service, are arguably the second-oldest profession. See, for instance, the Anabasis (400 BC).
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
"The idea of paying money for the time of another person (employee-employer relationship) is just a recent (17th century) phenomena. " That's about as wrong as you can get. Mercenary soldiers, who are paid for their time and service, are arguably the second-oldest profession. See, for instance, the Anabasis (400 BC).
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
craftsmen it doesn't function if any division of labor exists, which means it can't be a city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
craftsmen it doesn't function if any division of labor exists, which means it can't be a city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast Your 'mercenary soldiers' were agents of the Courts (kings or whatever). I completely covered that.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast Your 'mercenary soldiers' were agents of the Courts (kings or whatever). I completely covered that.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John Bakers bake, weavers weave, masons build, carpenters make furniture, blacksmiths blacksmith. Still a division of labor, except there is no mass production. No one 'paid' anyone to make something for them, except as the end consumer.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John Bakers bake, weavers weave, masons build, carpenters make furniture, blacksmiths blacksmith. Still a division of labor, except there is no mass production. No one 'paid' anyone to make something for them, except as the end consumer.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JustinThymetheSecond except they can't because they either have to farm for the next guy in line, and that takes the majority of their time, an means they can't live in the city. or one group is stuck at the bottom as farmers and their "servants" don't have to and can live in the city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JustinThymetheSecond except they can't because they either have to farm for the next guy in line, and that takes the majority of their time, an means they can't live in the city. or one group is stuck at the bottom as farmers and their "servants" don't have to and can live in the city.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
this doesn't work. it breaks down instantly.
Social tiers work because people do different things, there are farmers and people who can tell farmers what to do. Division of labor is inescapable and absolutely essential to the existence of a city. The system breaks down almost instantly as no one wants to farm. So the first group ordered to farm gets stuck with the lard labor and whomever they can order become an aristocracy. Because the farmers can't actually offload any labor. Some jobs are inherently less desirable, with less free time and harder labor, this is especially true prior to industrialization.
Cities are not self sufficient they need a steady influx of food from farms. but a farmer has to produce more food than they can eat otherwise there is not other jobs, everyone is a farmer, no one is backsmith, or a guard. And that means you don't have a city anymore. The backbone of feudalism is the people who farm vs the people who control farmers. This division happens almost immediately in your scenario.
If you give up on the idea of a city they everyone farms just enough to feed the next person in line, but that means that is all they do, they are all subsistence farmers with a weird sharing mechanism. Farming efficiency scales drastically, that is growing half a acre of crops does not take half the labor, in fact it takes substantially more than half. If everyone farms just enough to feed the next guy in line, there ARE no other jobs, and there is no city just circular ring of farms, up until the first shortage, then there is just a war.
As Alex points out, the only way you can have both is if the "slave" part of your daily activities are some minor they don't really impact your job, AKA you can't order someone to farm or anything specialized only things everyone does. In which case your back to not having a system supporting specialized labor. You then need real slaves and serfs to do the undesirable jobs.
Labor in a medieval society require specialization, but different "jobs" have different desirabilities and labor requirements. If people can be ordered to do undesirable jobs then people are getting stuck at the bottom and you have real stratification, If they can't be ordered to do such things then this has no impact on division of labor, and little impact on task period, so you need a different system for division of labor.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
(a) I have clarified this in Note 3. (b) Example: If I did my neighbour's laundry and my neighbour did my laundry then both of us would have done some laundry. That's no different form each of us doing our own laundry so no-one has worked any harder. That is a circle of two. I have simply made it a circle of 26. A circle of one is of course doing your own laundry.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
This does not actually address the problem. city societies are not held up by people doing laundry, it is supported by people farming, mining, lumberjacking, labor intensive jobs, jobs with little free time. jobs that can't be evenly divided and allow for other jobs due to scaling.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John People STILL do all of these things. What differs is how they are DIRECTED to do all of these things - by the state, by their master, by themselves, or by an 'employer'.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chasly from UK this is Ok if "slaves" need to contribute only a fraction of their time to serve their masters. If slaving becomes a full-time employment, system breaks in the way John has described.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Alexanders explanation is it in a nut shell, it only works if a majority of the labor does not involve slave tasks. but then you are right back to feudalism with a weird extra thing tacked on that has little impact on daily life.
$endgroup$
– John
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
this doesn't work. it breaks down instantly.
Social tiers work because people do different things, there are farmers and people who can tell farmers what to do. Division of labor is inescapable and absolutely essential to the existence of a city. The system breaks down almost instantly as no one wants to farm. So the first group ordered to farm gets stuck with the lard labor and whomever they can order become an aristocracy. Because the farmers can't actually offload any labor. Some jobs are inherently less desirable, with less free time and harder labor, this is especially true prior to industrialization.
Cities are not self sufficient they need a steady influx of food from farms. but a farmer has to produce more food than they can eat otherwise there is not other jobs, everyone is a farmer, no one is backsmith, or a guard. And that means you don't have a city anymore. The backbone of feudalism is the people who farm vs the people who control farmers. This division happens almost immediately in your scenario.
If you give up on the idea of a city they everyone farms just enough to feed the next person in line, but that means that is all they do, they are all subsistence farmers with a weird sharing mechanism. Farming efficiency scales drastically, that is growing half a acre of crops does not take half the labor, in fact it takes substantially more than half. If everyone farms just enough to feed the next guy in line, there ARE no other jobs, and there is no city just circular ring of farms, up until the first shortage, then there is just a war.
As Alex points out, the only way you can have both is if the "slave" part of your daily activities are some minor they don't really impact your job, AKA you can't order someone to farm or anything specialized only things everyone does. In which case your back to not having a system supporting specialized labor. You then need real slaves and serfs to do the undesirable jobs.
Labor in a medieval society require specialization, but different "jobs" have different desirabilities and labor requirements. If people can be ordered to do undesirable jobs then people are getting stuck at the bottom and you have real stratification, If they can't be ordered to do such things then this has no impact on division of labor, and little impact on task period, so you need a different system for division of labor.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
(a) I have clarified this in Note 3. (b) Example: If I did my neighbour's laundry and my neighbour did my laundry then both of us would have done some laundry. That's no different form each of us doing our own laundry so no-one has worked any harder. That is a circle of two. I have simply made it a circle of 26. A circle of one is of course doing your own laundry.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
This does not actually address the problem. city societies are not held up by people doing laundry, it is supported by people farming, mining, lumberjacking, labor intensive jobs, jobs with little free time. jobs that can't be evenly divided and allow for other jobs due to scaling.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John People STILL do all of these things. What differs is how they are DIRECTED to do all of these things - by the state, by their master, by themselves, or by an 'employer'.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chasly from UK this is Ok if "slaves" need to contribute only a fraction of their time to serve their masters. If slaving becomes a full-time employment, system breaks in the way John has described.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Alexanders explanation is it in a nut shell, it only works if a majority of the labor does not involve slave tasks. but then you are right back to feudalism with a weird extra thing tacked on that has little impact on daily life.
$endgroup$
– John
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
this doesn't work. it breaks down instantly.
Social tiers work because people do different things, there are farmers and people who can tell farmers what to do. Division of labor is inescapable and absolutely essential to the existence of a city. The system breaks down almost instantly as no one wants to farm. So the first group ordered to farm gets stuck with the lard labor and whomever they can order become an aristocracy. Because the farmers can't actually offload any labor. Some jobs are inherently less desirable, with less free time and harder labor, this is especially true prior to industrialization.
Cities are not self sufficient they need a steady influx of food from farms. but a farmer has to produce more food than they can eat otherwise there is not other jobs, everyone is a farmer, no one is backsmith, or a guard. And that means you don't have a city anymore. The backbone of feudalism is the people who farm vs the people who control farmers. This division happens almost immediately in your scenario.
If you give up on the idea of a city they everyone farms just enough to feed the next person in line, but that means that is all they do, they are all subsistence farmers with a weird sharing mechanism. Farming efficiency scales drastically, that is growing half a acre of crops does not take half the labor, in fact it takes substantially more than half. If everyone farms just enough to feed the next guy in line, there ARE no other jobs, and there is no city just circular ring of farms, up until the first shortage, then there is just a war.
As Alex points out, the only way you can have both is if the "slave" part of your daily activities are some minor they don't really impact your job, AKA you can't order someone to farm or anything specialized only things everyone does. In which case your back to not having a system supporting specialized labor. You then need real slaves and serfs to do the undesirable jobs.
Labor in a medieval society require specialization, but different "jobs" have different desirabilities and labor requirements. If people can be ordered to do undesirable jobs then people are getting stuck at the bottom and you have real stratification, If they can't be ordered to do such things then this has no impact on division of labor, and little impact on task period, so you need a different system for division of labor.
$endgroup$
this doesn't work. it breaks down instantly.
Social tiers work because people do different things, there are farmers and people who can tell farmers what to do. Division of labor is inescapable and absolutely essential to the existence of a city. The system breaks down almost instantly as no one wants to farm. So the first group ordered to farm gets stuck with the lard labor and whomever they can order become an aristocracy. Because the farmers can't actually offload any labor. Some jobs are inherently less desirable, with less free time and harder labor, this is especially true prior to industrialization.
Cities are not self sufficient they need a steady influx of food from farms. but a farmer has to produce more food than they can eat otherwise there is not other jobs, everyone is a farmer, no one is backsmith, or a guard. And that means you don't have a city anymore. The backbone of feudalism is the people who farm vs the people who control farmers. This division happens almost immediately in your scenario.
If you give up on the idea of a city they everyone farms just enough to feed the next person in line, but that means that is all they do, they are all subsistence farmers with a weird sharing mechanism. Farming efficiency scales drastically, that is growing half a acre of crops does not take half the labor, in fact it takes substantially more than half. If everyone farms just enough to feed the next guy in line, there ARE no other jobs, and there is no city just circular ring of farms, up until the first shortage, then there is just a war.
As Alex points out, the only way you can have both is if the "slave" part of your daily activities are some minor they don't really impact your job, AKA you can't order someone to farm or anything specialized only things everyone does. In which case your back to not having a system supporting specialized labor. You then need real slaves and serfs to do the undesirable jobs.
Labor in a medieval society require specialization, but different "jobs" have different desirabilities and labor requirements. If people can be ordered to do undesirable jobs then people are getting stuck at the bottom and you have real stratification, If they can't be ordered to do such things then this has no impact on division of labor, and little impact on task period, so you need a different system for division of labor.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
JohnJohn
33.9k1045120
33.9k1045120
1
$begingroup$
(a) I have clarified this in Note 3. (b) Example: If I did my neighbour's laundry and my neighbour did my laundry then both of us would have done some laundry. That's no different form each of us doing our own laundry so no-one has worked any harder. That is a circle of two. I have simply made it a circle of 26. A circle of one is of course doing your own laundry.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
This does not actually address the problem. city societies are not held up by people doing laundry, it is supported by people farming, mining, lumberjacking, labor intensive jobs, jobs with little free time. jobs that can't be evenly divided and allow for other jobs due to scaling.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John People STILL do all of these things. What differs is how they are DIRECTED to do all of these things - by the state, by their master, by themselves, or by an 'employer'.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chasly from UK this is Ok if "slaves" need to contribute only a fraction of their time to serve their masters. If slaving becomes a full-time employment, system breaks in the way John has described.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Alexanders explanation is it in a nut shell, it only works if a majority of the labor does not involve slave tasks. but then you are right back to feudalism with a weird extra thing tacked on that has little impact on daily life.
$endgroup$
– John
8 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
(a) I have clarified this in Note 3. (b) Example: If I did my neighbour's laundry and my neighbour did my laundry then both of us would have done some laundry. That's no different form each of us doing our own laundry so no-one has worked any harder. That is a circle of two. I have simply made it a circle of 26. A circle of one is of course doing your own laundry.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
This does not actually address the problem. city societies are not held up by people doing laundry, it is supported by people farming, mining, lumberjacking, labor intensive jobs, jobs with little free time. jobs that can't be evenly divided and allow for other jobs due to scaling.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John People STILL do all of these things. What differs is how they are DIRECTED to do all of these things - by the state, by their master, by themselves, or by an 'employer'.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chasly from UK this is Ok if "slaves" need to contribute only a fraction of their time to serve their masters. If slaving becomes a full-time employment, system breaks in the way John has described.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Alexanders explanation is it in a nut shell, it only works if a majority of the labor does not involve slave tasks. but then you are right back to feudalism with a weird extra thing tacked on that has little impact on daily life.
$endgroup$
– John
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
(a) I have clarified this in Note 3. (b) Example: If I did my neighbour's laundry and my neighbour did my laundry then both of us would have done some laundry. That's no different form each of us doing our own laundry so no-one has worked any harder. That is a circle of two. I have simply made it a circle of 26. A circle of one is of course doing your own laundry.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
(a) I have clarified this in Note 3. (b) Example: If I did my neighbour's laundry and my neighbour did my laundry then both of us would have done some laundry. That's no different form each of us doing our own laundry so no-one has worked any harder. That is a circle of two. I have simply made it a circle of 26. A circle of one is of course doing your own laundry.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
This does not actually address the problem. city societies are not held up by people doing laundry, it is supported by people farming, mining, lumberjacking, labor intensive jobs, jobs with little free time. jobs that can't be evenly divided and allow for other jobs due to scaling.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
This does not actually address the problem. city societies are not held up by people doing laundry, it is supported by people farming, mining, lumberjacking, labor intensive jobs, jobs with little free time. jobs that can't be evenly divided and allow for other jobs due to scaling.
$endgroup$
– John
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John People STILL do all of these things. What differs is how they are DIRECTED to do all of these things - by the state, by their master, by themselves, or by an 'employer'.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@John People STILL do all of these things. What differs is how they are DIRECTED to do all of these things - by the state, by their master, by themselves, or by an 'employer'.
$endgroup$
– Justin Thyme the Second
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chasly from UK this is Ok if "slaves" need to contribute only a fraction of their time to serve their masters. If slaving becomes a full-time employment, system breaks in the way John has described.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chasly from UK this is Ok if "slaves" need to contribute only a fraction of their time to serve their masters. If slaving becomes a full-time employment, system breaks in the way John has described.
$endgroup$
– Alexander
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Alexanders explanation is it in a nut shell, it only works if a majority of the labor does not involve slave tasks. but then you are right back to feudalism with a weird extra thing tacked on that has little impact on daily life.
$endgroup$
– John
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Alexanders explanation is it in a nut shell, it only works if a majority of the labor does not involve slave tasks. but then you are right back to feudalism with a weird extra thing tacked on that has little impact on daily life.
$endgroup$
– John
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to other objections, I'd add hierarchy. Not in the sense of who owns who, but of how many slaves an individual master owns. It's clear that, in order to fulfill the OP, on average each person can only own one slave. And it's not at all clear that this is going to make a whole lot of sense.
Somehow, the entire system needs to act like
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes. On average each person has one slave. Maybe servant would be a better term. It gives everyone the sense that they are in the middle of the hierarchy (a hierarchy that doesn't exist) and thus keeps them under control for fear of being demoted. There are terrible rumours about what happens if you get to be in the lowest class.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - "Yes. On average each person has one slave." The problem is, while hierachies imply subordination, I can't think of one (of more than two levels) which has equal populations in each layer. If, for instance, a level-one slave raises enough food for himself, and the master takes it all, if he then orders the level-2 slave to give him all of his food, the master can then take that as well. If the master orders the level-one to work all day in the field, the level-one cannot oversee the level-2 - he's too busy.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The Escher waterfall is great but it's not relevant. My system is just an extension of 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' It is simply a circle of people all scratching each other's backs. I think a more correct picture would be this one. media.gettyimages.com/photos/…
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - Slavery is not mutual backscratching. And I can't find a more appropriate version of your image (which involves unnatural sexual acts by all of those smiling back-scratchers), but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to post it if I did.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you think people sitting on each others' knee is automatically sexual then you've been watching the wrong videos ;-)
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
In addition to other objections, I'd add hierarchy. Not in the sense of who owns who, but of how many slaves an individual master owns. It's clear that, in order to fulfill the OP, on average each person can only own one slave. And it's not at all clear that this is going to make a whole lot of sense.
Somehow, the entire system needs to act like
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes. On average each person has one slave. Maybe servant would be a better term. It gives everyone the sense that they are in the middle of the hierarchy (a hierarchy that doesn't exist) and thus keeps them under control for fear of being demoted. There are terrible rumours about what happens if you get to be in the lowest class.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - "Yes. On average each person has one slave." The problem is, while hierachies imply subordination, I can't think of one (of more than two levels) which has equal populations in each layer. If, for instance, a level-one slave raises enough food for himself, and the master takes it all, if he then orders the level-2 slave to give him all of his food, the master can then take that as well. If the master orders the level-one to work all day in the field, the level-one cannot oversee the level-2 - he's too busy.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The Escher waterfall is great but it's not relevant. My system is just an extension of 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' It is simply a circle of people all scratching each other's backs. I think a more correct picture would be this one. media.gettyimages.com/photos/…
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - Slavery is not mutual backscratching. And I can't find a more appropriate version of your image (which involves unnatural sexual acts by all of those smiling back-scratchers), but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to post it if I did.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you think people sitting on each others' knee is automatically sexual then you've been watching the wrong videos ;-)
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
In addition to other objections, I'd add hierarchy. Not in the sense of who owns who, but of how many slaves an individual master owns. It's clear that, in order to fulfill the OP, on average each person can only own one slave. And it's not at all clear that this is going to make a whole lot of sense.
Somehow, the entire system needs to act like
$endgroup$
In addition to other objections, I'd add hierarchy. Not in the sense of who owns who, but of how many slaves an individual master owns. It's clear that, in order to fulfill the OP, on average each person can only own one slave. And it's not at all clear that this is going to make a whole lot of sense.
Somehow, the entire system needs to act like
answered 5 hours ago
WhatRoughBeastWhatRoughBeast
23k23280
23k23280
$begingroup$
Yes. On average each person has one slave. Maybe servant would be a better term. It gives everyone the sense that they are in the middle of the hierarchy (a hierarchy that doesn't exist) and thus keeps them under control for fear of being demoted. There are terrible rumours about what happens if you get to be in the lowest class.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - "Yes. On average each person has one slave." The problem is, while hierachies imply subordination, I can't think of one (of more than two levels) which has equal populations in each layer. If, for instance, a level-one slave raises enough food for himself, and the master takes it all, if he then orders the level-2 slave to give him all of his food, the master can then take that as well. If the master orders the level-one to work all day in the field, the level-one cannot oversee the level-2 - he's too busy.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The Escher waterfall is great but it's not relevant. My system is just an extension of 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' It is simply a circle of people all scratching each other's backs. I think a more correct picture would be this one. media.gettyimages.com/photos/…
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - Slavery is not mutual backscratching. And I can't find a more appropriate version of your image (which involves unnatural sexual acts by all of those smiling back-scratchers), but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to post it if I did.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you think people sitting on each others' knee is automatically sexual then you've been watching the wrong videos ;-)
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Yes. On average each person has one slave. Maybe servant would be a better term. It gives everyone the sense that they are in the middle of the hierarchy (a hierarchy that doesn't exist) and thus keeps them under control for fear of being demoted. There are terrible rumours about what happens if you get to be in the lowest class.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - "Yes. On average each person has one slave." The problem is, while hierachies imply subordination, I can't think of one (of more than two levels) which has equal populations in each layer. If, for instance, a level-one slave raises enough food for himself, and the master takes it all, if he then orders the level-2 slave to give him all of his food, the master can then take that as well. If the master orders the level-one to work all day in the field, the level-one cannot oversee the level-2 - he's too busy.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The Escher waterfall is great but it's not relevant. My system is just an extension of 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' It is simply a circle of people all scratching each other's backs. I think a more correct picture would be this one. media.gettyimages.com/photos/…
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - Slavery is not mutual backscratching. And I can't find a more appropriate version of your image (which involves unnatural sexual acts by all of those smiling back-scratchers), but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to post it if I did.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you think people sitting on each others' knee is automatically sexual then you've been watching the wrong videos ;-)
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes. On average each person has one slave. Maybe servant would be a better term. It gives everyone the sense that they are in the middle of the hierarchy (a hierarchy that doesn't exist) and thus keeps them under control for fear of being demoted. There are terrible rumours about what happens if you get to be in the lowest class.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes. On average each person has one slave. Maybe servant would be a better term. It gives everyone the sense that they are in the middle of the hierarchy (a hierarchy that doesn't exist) and thus keeps them under control for fear of being demoted. There are terrible rumours about what happens if you get to be in the lowest class.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - "Yes. On average each person has one slave." The problem is, while hierachies imply subordination, I can't think of one (of more than two levels) which has equal populations in each layer. If, for instance, a level-one slave raises enough food for himself, and the master takes it all, if he then orders the level-2 slave to give him all of his food, the master can then take that as well. If the master orders the level-one to work all day in the field, the level-one cannot oversee the level-2 - he's too busy.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - "Yes. On average each person has one slave." The problem is, while hierachies imply subordination, I can't think of one (of more than two levels) which has equal populations in each layer. If, for instance, a level-one slave raises enough food for himself, and the master takes it all, if he then orders the level-2 slave to give him all of his food, the master can then take that as well. If the master orders the level-one to work all day in the field, the level-one cannot oversee the level-2 - he's too busy.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The Escher waterfall is great but it's not relevant. My system is just an extension of 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' It is simply a circle of people all scratching each other's backs. I think a more correct picture would be this one. media.gettyimages.com/photos/…
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
The Escher waterfall is great but it's not relevant. My system is just an extension of 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' It is simply a circle of people all scratching each other's backs. I think a more correct picture would be this one. media.gettyimages.com/photos/…
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - Slavery is not mutual backscratching. And I can't find a more appropriate version of your image (which involves unnatural sexual acts by all of those smiling back-scratchers), but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to post it if I did.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK - Slavery is not mutual backscratching. And I can't find a more appropriate version of your image (which involves unnatural sexual acts by all of those smiling back-scratchers), but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to post it if I did.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you think people sitting on each others' knee is automatically sexual then you've been watching the wrong videos ;-)
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you think people sitting on each others' knee is automatically sexual then you've been watching the wrong videos ;-)
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
5 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
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