$f : mathbb{R}^+ → mathbb{R}$ with $f(0) = f'(0) = 0$ and $f(x) 0$?
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I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.
Here is the statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.
I appreciate any help!
real-analysis functions derivatives
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.
Here is the statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.
I appreciate any help!
real-analysis functions derivatives
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1
$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
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– Eelvex
2 days ago
16
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@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.
Here is the statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.
I appreciate any help!
real-analysis functions derivatives
$endgroup$
I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.
Here is the statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.
I appreciate any help!
real-analysis functions derivatives
real-analysis functions derivatives
edited 16 hours ago
user21820
38.8k543153
38.8k543153
asked 2 days ago
Math-funMath-fun
7,0931527
7,0931527
1
$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
2 days ago
16
$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
2 days ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
2 days ago
16
$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
2 days ago
1
1
$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
2 days ago
$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
2 days ago
16
16
$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
2 days ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
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I do not think it is true. Take for example
- $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$
- $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$
- $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$
- $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$
Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
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– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago
1
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@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
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– Henry
2 days ago
2
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Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
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– Math-fun
2 days ago
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How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
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– D777
17 hours ago
1
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@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
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– Henry
14 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.
The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$
Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$ $$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$
for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.
Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.
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You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
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– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
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As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$
$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$
As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$
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I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
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– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
Your Answer
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
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votes
$begingroup$
I do not think it is true. Take for example
- $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$
- $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$
- $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$
- $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$
Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
$endgroup$
– D777
17 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
$endgroup$
– Henry
14 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I do not think it is true. Take for example
- $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$
- $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$
- $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$
- $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$
Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
$endgroup$
– D777
17 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
$endgroup$
– Henry
14 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I do not think it is true. Take for example
- $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$
- $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$
- $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$
- $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$
Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases
$endgroup$
I do not think it is true. Take for example
- $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$
- $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$
- $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$
- $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$
Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
HenryHenry
99.3k479165
99.3k479165
3
$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
$endgroup$
– D777
17 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
$endgroup$
– Henry
14 hours ago
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
$endgroup$
– D777
17 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
$endgroup$
– Henry
14 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
2 days ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
$endgroup$
– D777
17 hours ago
$begingroup$
How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
$endgroup$
– D777
17 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
$endgroup$
– Henry
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
$endgroup$
– Henry
14 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.
The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$
Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$ $$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$
for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.
Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.
The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$
Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$ $$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$
for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.
Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.
The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$
Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$ $$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$
for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.
Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.
$endgroup$
Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:
There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.
The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$
Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$ $$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$
for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$
for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.
Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.
answered 2 days ago
Michael SeifertMichael Seifert
4,887625
4,887625
$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$
$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$
As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$
$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$
As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$
$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$
As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$
$endgroup$
As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$
$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$
As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$
answered 2 days ago
Will JagyWill Jagy
102k5101199
102k5101199
$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago
add a comment |
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$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
2 days ago
16
$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
2 days ago