$f : mathbb{R}^+ → mathbb{R}$ with $f(0) = f'(0) = 0$ and $f(x) 0$?












17












$begingroup$


I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.



Here is the statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.




I appreciate any help!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    2 days ago






  • 16




    $begingroup$
    @Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – SvanN
    2 days ago
















17












$begingroup$


I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.



Here is the statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.




I appreciate any help!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    2 days ago






  • 16




    $begingroup$
    @Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – SvanN
    2 days ago














17












17








17


2



$begingroup$


I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.



Here is the statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.




I appreciate any help!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I want to intuitively argue that there is no function with some properties, and find it tricky to explain it to someone who just understands that derivatives are representative of increase rates of a function.



Here is the statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the first, second and third derivative of $f(x)$ are strictly positive on $x>0$.




I appreciate any help!







real-analysis functions derivatives






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share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 16 hours ago









user21820

38.8k543153




38.8k543153










asked 2 days ago









Math-funMath-fun

7,0931527




7,0931527








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    2 days ago






  • 16




    $begingroup$
    @Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – SvanN
    2 days ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    $f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
    $endgroup$
    – Eelvex
    2 days ago






  • 16




    $begingroup$
    @Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – SvanN
    2 days ago








1




1




$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
2 days ago




$begingroup$
$f''' > 0$ means that it grows at least as fast as $x^3$ but then it will be $f > x^2$ in either $[0,1]$ or $[1,infty]$.
$endgroup$
– Eelvex
2 days ago




16




16




$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
2 days ago




$begingroup$
@Eelvex I would be careful with that: $f''' > 0$ need not imply that $f''' > varepsilon$ for some constant $varepsilon > 0$.
$endgroup$
– SvanN
2 days ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















40












$begingroup$

I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
    $endgroup$
    – D777
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    14 hours ago





















13












$begingroup$

Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.






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$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago



















8












$begingroup$

As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago











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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









40












$begingroup$

I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
    $endgroup$
    – D777
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    14 hours ago


















40












$begingroup$

I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
    $endgroup$
    – D777
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    14 hours ago
















40












40








40





$begingroup$

I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



I do not think it is true. Take for example




  • $f(x) = 1 - x + frac12x^2 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'(x) = - 1 + x + e^{-x}$

  • $f''(x) = 1 - e^{-x}$

  • $f'''(x) = e^{-x}$


Here is a graph: note that the black line for $x^2$ is above the dark blue line for $f(x)$, while the green line for $f''(x)$ stays below $1$ while the second derivative of $x^2$ is $2$, and the red line for $f'''(x)$ tends towards $0$ from above as $x$ increases



enter image description here







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago

























answered 2 days ago









HenryHenry

99.3k479165




99.3k479165








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
    $endgroup$
    – D777
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    14 hours ago
















  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
    $endgroup$
    – Daniel Schepler
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
    $endgroup$
    – D777
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Henry
    14 hours ago










3




3




$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago




$begingroup$
Analytically, once you verify $f(0) = f'(0) = f''(0) = 0$ then $f'''(x) > 0$ for $x>0$ implies $f''(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f'(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$, which implies $f(x) > 0$ for $x > 0$. Whereas $f''(x) < 1$ for $x > 0$ along with the initial conditions implies $f'(x) < x$ for $x > 0$, implying $f(x) < frac{1}{2} x^2$ for $x > 0$.
$endgroup$
– Daniel Schepler
2 days ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
2 days ago




$begingroup$
@DanielSchepler - yes indeed. Choosing $f''(x)=1-e^{-x}$ was the key to the counterexample, though there will be others with $f''(0)=0$ then increasing to less than $2$
$endgroup$
– Henry
2 days ago




2




2




$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago




$begingroup$
Many thanks for this counter example which together with other very nice hints makes the issue clear to me!
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago












$begingroup$
How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
$endgroup$
– D777
17 hours ago






$begingroup$
How did you conclude that the second derivative of $f$ at $0$ is $0$, and at $x>0$ is $1$?
$endgroup$
– D777
17 hours ago






1




1




$begingroup$
@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
$endgroup$
– Henry
14 hours ago






$begingroup$
@D777 - You do not need the second derivative to be $0$ at $0$, but you do need it to be less than $2$ everywhere and to be positive and increasing for $x gt 0$ so at least $0$ at $0$, and an easy counterexample comes from having it go from $0$ towards $1$.
$endgroup$
– Henry
14 hours ago













13












$begingroup$

Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago
















13












$begingroup$

Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago














13












13








13





$begingroup$

Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Your intuition is correct for a slightly different statement:




There is no function $f(x)$ on $x ge 0$ such that $f(0)=0$, $f'(0)=0$, $f(x)<x^2$ for $x>0$ and that the third derivative of $f(x)$ is bounded below by some $epsilon > 0$ on $x>0$.




The argument is as follows: Suppose that such a function exists. Then we have $f'''(x) geq epsilon$, which means that (integrating both sides)
$$
f''(x) - f''(0) geq epsilon x.
$$

Denote $f''(0) = a$, so that $f''(x) geq epsilon x + a$. Integrating two more times, we have
$$
f'(x) geq frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x + f'(0) = frac{1}{2} epsilon x^2 + a x
$$
$$
f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + a x^2 + f(0) = frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

But if $f(x) < x^2$, we have
$$
x^2 > f(x) geq frac{1}{6} epsilon x^3 + frac{1}{2} a x^2
$$

for all $x > 0$, which reduces to
$$
frac{6(1 - a/2)}{epsilon} > x.
$$

for all $x > 0$. For any value of $epsilon > 0$ and $a in mathbb{R}$, this will be violated by some $x > 0$, and we have a contradiction.



Intuitionally: if the third derivative is always at least some value, then we know that the function has to grow at least as fast as $frac{1}{6} x^3$ times that value. But any function that grows as fast as $x^3$ (times any positive number) must have a greater value than $x^2$ at some point.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 2 days ago









Michael SeifertMichael Seifert

4,887625




4,887625












  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago


















  • $begingroup$
    You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago
















$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago




$begingroup$
You are indeed right. Given the other counter example and the comments I guess I understood this issue :-) +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago











8












$begingroup$

As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago
















8












$begingroup$

As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago














8












8








8





$begingroup$

As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



As in the first answer and comment by Daniel, we can choose any $f'''$ that is positive as long as its definite integral out to infinity is finite and smaller than 2. then we back up, each function is the definite integral from $0.$



$$ f'''(x) = frac{1}{1+x^2} $$
$$ f''(x) = arctan x $$
$$ f'(x) = x arctan x - frac{1}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) $$
$$ f(x) = left( frac{x^2 -1}{2} right) arctan x - frac{x}{2} log left(1+x^2 right) + frac{x}{2}$$



As $f'' < frac{pi}{2},$ we get $$f'(x) = int_0^x f''(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi }{2} dt = frac{pi x}{2}$$
$$f(x) = int_0^x f'(t) dt < int_0^x frac{pi t}{2} dt = frac{pi x^2}{4}$$







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered 2 days ago









Will JagyWill Jagy

102k5101199




102k5101199












  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago


















  • $begingroup$
    I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
    $endgroup$
    – Math-fun
    2 days ago
















$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago




$begingroup$
I will check the functional forms soon, this looks quite interesting! +1
$endgroup$
– Math-fun
2 days ago


















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