Why didn’t the Captain of Cathay Pacific flight 780 shut down engine 1 and land with a more reasonable...












18












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In the approach phase, engine 1 of Cathay Pacific flight 780 got stuck at about 70% N1 and it forced the crew to do an overspeed landing (230knots).



Why didn't they shut it off by turning the fuel pumps off? Is there a backup mechanism if the fuel valve fails like in this scenario?










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    18












    $begingroup$


    In the approach phase, engine 1 of Cathay Pacific flight 780 got stuck at about 70% N1 and it forced the crew to do an overspeed landing (230knots).



    Why didn't they shut it off by turning the fuel pumps off? Is there a backup mechanism if the fuel valve fails like in this scenario?










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    xMooo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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    $endgroup$















      18












      18








      18


      1



      $begingroup$


      In the approach phase, engine 1 of Cathay Pacific flight 780 got stuck at about 70% N1 and it forced the crew to do an overspeed landing (230knots).



      Why didn't they shut it off by turning the fuel pumps off? Is there a backup mechanism if the fuel valve fails like in this scenario?










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      xMooo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.







      $endgroup$




      In the approach phase, engine 1 of Cathay Pacific flight 780 got stuck at about 70% N1 and it forced the crew to do an overspeed landing (230knots).



      Why didn't they shut it off by turning the fuel pumps off? Is there a backup mechanism if the fuel valve fails like in this scenario?







      safety jet-engine accident-investigation fuel-systems airbus-a330






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      share|improve this question









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      edited yesterday









      Notts90

      2,03431638




      2,03431638






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      asked 2 days ago









      xMoooxMooo

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          4 Answers
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          45












          $begingroup$

          You can find the full incident report here and this topic is touched upon briefly, but in short they had little to no time to entertain any other options but a full speed landing.




          It was not until the aircraft [was] on the final descent for landing that
          the Commander realised they could not reduce the thrust on the number
          1 engine. The speed was not controllable and from that point, there
          was no time for the crew to consider other strategy nor procedure to
          cope with such emergency situation.




          and more in the conclusion section...




          t. At that stage, there was no time for the flight crew to consider other
          strategy nor procedure to cope with such emergency situation. The
          flight crew concentrated on flying the aircraft for a safe landing.




          First off, the engine was throwing errors throughout the flight and they were talking to the maintenance team at other points. Ultimately, the proper steps were taken and everything was done by the book. They were prepared for an engine-out landing. When you have a runaway engine malfunction (or throttle stuck at full) shutting down prior to landing may not be the right decision if the running engine provides no immediate safety risk. If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again.



          Considering that most airports have a bit (or a lot) of extra runway, EMAS systems and often land at the end of the runway, coming in overspeed and burning through your tires and brakes may be safer than cutting the engine and potentially falling short of the runway.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 18




            $begingroup$
            Regarding the last paragraph... Any landing you can walk away from, and all that, huh?
            $endgroup$
            – T.J.L.
            2 days ago






          • 6




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua - "If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again." - What if you hit a sudden crosswind and have to abort the landing? I'd assume 'doing it by the book' never shuts down an engine that isn't e.g., on fire.
            $endgroup$
            – Mazura
            2 days ago






          • 8




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua … and if things are really screwed, you can't be 100% sure you are going to shut down either the engine you intended, or the correct one. We only know this was a "stuck valve because of contaminated fuel" with hindsight. The whole thing could have been caused by an electrical or computer problem, in which case the result of any control action is unknown until you try it and see what happens!
            $endgroup$
            – alephzero
            2 days ago








          • 7




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua if you are on a 3 deg glideslope at reference speed with full flaps, if all the thrust is removed you are landing short in the housing development across the highway, unless you are already across the airport boundary, in which case you are landing in the approach lights or maybe if you're lucky you can stretch the glide to the runway and just land really hard.
            $endgroup$
            – John K
            2 days ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua part of the point is that you avoid shutting down an engine unless absolutely necessary - it's safe to do an overspeed landing to a certain point, so why unnecessarily risk? Take British Midland Flight 92 as an example - an engine shed a turbine blade. The crew diverted and shut the engine down. Only they shut the wrong one down, and their actions in doing so just happened to mask the effect (turned off autothrottle, which throttled back the duff engine as well), until they were on approach and throttled back up, which caused a complete failure and a crash just short of the runway.
            $endgroup$
            – Moo
            2 hours ago



















          40












          $begingroup$

          Engine #2 wasn't doing its job either



          Had the situation just been engine #1 stuck at high thrust, with engine 2 normally controllable, than what you describe would be a reasonable response to the situation. However, that was not the case with CX780 -- during approach, Engine #2 was stuck at 17% N1 (or rather below idle) and thus delivering effectively nil thrust.



          As a result, the pilots dared not shut down engine #1 until they were safely stopped on the ground.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 1




            $begingroup$
            All this talk of engine #1 and #2 I assumed that #3 and #4 were functioning normally for quite a while whilst reading here.
            $endgroup$
            – Flexo
            13 hours ago






          • 3




            $begingroup$
            @Flexo -- nope, only two engines to be had here!
            $endgroup$
            – UnrecognizedFallingObject
            7 hours ago



















          16












          $begingroup$

          From the incident report section 1.1.4:




          a. At 0519 hrs during the descent to a cleared level of FL230, ECAM
          messages “ENG 1 CTL SYS FAULT” and “ENG 2 STALL” were annunciated
          within a short period of time. According to the Commander, a light
          “pop” sound was heard and some “ozone” and “burning” smell was
          detected shortly before the ECAM message “ENG 2 STALL”




          Then later:




          e. At 0530 hrs, when the aircraft was approximately 45 nm southeast
          from VHHH and was about to level off at 8,000 ft AMSL, ECAM message
          “ENG 1 STALL” was annunciated.




          So now both engines are out, they started the APU and successfully managed to restart #1:




          h. The crew moved the thrust levers to check the engine control but
          there was no direct response from the engines. The No. 1 engine speed
          eventually increased to about 74% N1 with the No. 1 thrust lever in
          the CLB (climb) detent position. The No. 2 engine speed remained at
          sub-idle about 17% N1, with the No. 2 t hrust lever at the IDLE
          position.




          Engine 2 was out of action, producing no power, engine 1 had failed, but was temporarily working although they couldn't adjust power, if they'd shut that down too they'd have been gliding and probably would have crashed with total loss of life. They didn't have the power to climb and had one shot at landing, so they made damn sure they got it on the runway, not a bad landing considering the circumstances.



          On a humorous note, another example of pilot understatement:




          l. At 0539 hrs, the Commander made another PA advising the passengers
          of having “small problem with the engines” with small vibrations and
          requesting them to remain seated and follow the directions from the
          cabin crew.







          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            It's only a "small problem" unless the engine is completely missing.
            $endgroup$
            – Jacob Krall
            15 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            To be fair, he was technically correct. The actual problem was microscopic...
            $endgroup$
            – TemporalWolf
            10 hours ago



















          3












          $begingroup$

          Aside from what Unrec. and GdD point out, even if the other engine had been running perfectly...



          A frequent problem with twin engine airplanes is shutting down the wrong engine. Nobody ever expects or plans to shut down the wrong engine, but it happens anyway.



          So a crew is very cautious to shutdown an engine that is working.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$













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            4 Answers
            4






            active

            oldest

            votes








            4 Answers
            4






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

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            45












            $begingroup$

            You can find the full incident report here and this topic is touched upon briefly, but in short they had little to no time to entertain any other options but a full speed landing.




            It was not until the aircraft [was] on the final descent for landing that
            the Commander realised they could not reduce the thrust on the number
            1 engine. The speed was not controllable and from that point, there
            was no time for the crew to consider other strategy nor procedure to
            cope with such emergency situation.




            and more in the conclusion section...




            t. At that stage, there was no time for the flight crew to consider other
            strategy nor procedure to cope with such emergency situation. The
            flight crew concentrated on flying the aircraft for a safe landing.




            First off, the engine was throwing errors throughout the flight and they were talking to the maintenance team at other points. Ultimately, the proper steps were taken and everything was done by the book. They were prepared for an engine-out landing. When you have a runaway engine malfunction (or throttle stuck at full) shutting down prior to landing may not be the right decision if the running engine provides no immediate safety risk. If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again.



            Considering that most airports have a bit (or a lot) of extra runway, EMAS systems and often land at the end of the runway, coming in overspeed and burning through your tires and brakes may be safer than cutting the engine and potentially falling short of the runway.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$









            • 18




              $begingroup$
              Regarding the last paragraph... Any landing you can walk away from, and all that, huh?
              $endgroup$
              – T.J.L.
              2 days ago






            • 6




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua - "If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again." - What if you hit a sudden crosswind and have to abort the landing? I'd assume 'doing it by the book' never shuts down an engine that isn't e.g., on fire.
              $endgroup$
              – Mazura
              2 days ago






            • 8




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua … and if things are really screwed, you can't be 100% sure you are going to shut down either the engine you intended, or the correct one. We only know this was a "stuck valve because of contaminated fuel" with hindsight. The whole thing could have been caused by an electrical or computer problem, in which case the result of any control action is unknown until you try it and see what happens!
              $endgroup$
              – alephzero
              2 days ago








            • 7




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua if you are on a 3 deg glideslope at reference speed with full flaps, if all the thrust is removed you are landing short in the housing development across the highway, unless you are already across the airport boundary, in which case you are landing in the approach lights or maybe if you're lucky you can stretch the glide to the runway and just land really hard.
              $endgroup$
              – John K
              2 days ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua part of the point is that you avoid shutting down an engine unless absolutely necessary - it's safe to do an overspeed landing to a certain point, so why unnecessarily risk? Take British Midland Flight 92 as an example - an engine shed a turbine blade. The crew diverted and shut the engine down. Only they shut the wrong one down, and their actions in doing so just happened to mask the effect (turned off autothrottle, which throttled back the duff engine as well), until they were on approach and throttled back up, which caused a complete failure and a crash just short of the runway.
              $endgroup$
              – Moo
              2 hours ago
















            45












            $begingroup$

            You can find the full incident report here and this topic is touched upon briefly, but in short they had little to no time to entertain any other options but a full speed landing.




            It was not until the aircraft [was] on the final descent for landing that
            the Commander realised they could not reduce the thrust on the number
            1 engine. The speed was not controllable and from that point, there
            was no time for the crew to consider other strategy nor procedure to
            cope with such emergency situation.




            and more in the conclusion section...




            t. At that stage, there was no time for the flight crew to consider other
            strategy nor procedure to cope with such emergency situation. The
            flight crew concentrated on flying the aircraft for a safe landing.




            First off, the engine was throwing errors throughout the flight and they were talking to the maintenance team at other points. Ultimately, the proper steps were taken and everything was done by the book. They were prepared for an engine-out landing. When you have a runaway engine malfunction (or throttle stuck at full) shutting down prior to landing may not be the right decision if the running engine provides no immediate safety risk. If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again.



            Considering that most airports have a bit (or a lot) of extra runway, EMAS systems and often land at the end of the runway, coming in overspeed and burning through your tires and brakes may be safer than cutting the engine and potentially falling short of the runway.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$









            • 18




              $begingroup$
              Regarding the last paragraph... Any landing you can walk away from, and all that, huh?
              $endgroup$
              – T.J.L.
              2 days ago






            • 6




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua - "If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again." - What if you hit a sudden crosswind and have to abort the landing? I'd assume 'doing it by the book' never shuts down an engine that isn't e.g., on fire.
              $endgroup$
              – Mazura
              2 days ago






            • 8




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua … and if things are really screwed, you can't be 100% sure you are going to shut down either the engine you intended, or the correct one. We only know this was a "stuck valve because of contaminated fuel" with hindsight. The whole thing could have been caused by an electrical or computer problem, in which case the result of any control action is unknown until you try it and see what happens!
              $endgroup$
              – alephzero
              2 days ago








            • 7




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua if you are on a 3 deg glideslope at reference speed with full flaps, if all the thrust is removed you are landing short in the housing development across the highway, unless you are already across the airport boundary, in which case you are landing in the approach lights or maybe if you're lucky you can stretch the glide to the runway and just land really hard.
              $endgroup$
              – John K
              2 days ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua part of the point is that you avoid shutting down an engine unless absolutely necessary - it's safe to do an overspeed landing to a certain point, so why unnecessarily risk? Take British Midland Flight 92 as an example - an engine shed a turbine blade. The crew diverted and shut the engine down. Only they shut the wrong one down, and their actions in doing so just happened to mask the effect (turned off autothrottle, which throttled back the duff engine as well), until they were on approach and throttled back up, which caused a complete failure and a crash just short of the runway.
              $endgroup$
              – Moo
              2 hours ago














            45












            45








            45





            $begingroup$

            You can find the full incident report here and this topic is touched upon briefly, but in short they had little to no time to entertain any other options but a full speed landing.




            It was not until the aircraft [was] on the final descent for landing that
            the Commander realised they could not reduce the thrust on the number
            1 engine. The speed was not controllable and from that point, there
            was no time for the crew to consider other strategy nor procedure to
            cope with such emergency situation.




            and more in the conclusion section...




            t. At that stage, there was no time for the flight crew to consider other
            strategy nor procedure to cope with such emergency situation. The
            flight crew concentrated on flying the aircraft for a safe landing.




            First off, the engine was throwing errors throughout the flight and they were talking to the maintenance team at other points. Ultimately, the proper steps were taken and everything was done by the book. They were prepared for an engine-out landing. When you have a runaway engine malfunction (or throttle stuck at full) shutting down prior to landing may not be the right decision if the running engine provides no immediate safety risk. If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again.



            Considering that most airports have a bit (or a lot) of extra runway, EMAS systems and often land at the end of the runway, coming in overspeed and burning through your tires and brakes may be safer than cutting the engine and potentially falling short of the runway.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            You can find the full incident report here and this topic is touched upon briefly, but in short they had little to no time to entertain any other options but a full speed landing.




            It was not until the aircraft [was] on the final descent for landing that
            the Commander realised they could not reduce the thrust on the number
            1 engine. The speed was not controllable and from that point, there
            was no time for the crew to consider other strategy nor procedure to
            cope with such emergency situation.




            and more in the conclusion section...




            t. At that stage, there was no time for the flight crew to consider other
            strategy nor procedure to cope with such emergency situation. The
            flight crew concentrated on flying the aircraft for a safe landing.




            First off, the engine was throwing errors throughout the flight and they were talking to the maintenance team at other points. Ultimately, the proper steps were taken and everything was done by the book. They were prepared for an engine-out landing. When you have a runaway engine malfunction (or throttle stuck at full) shutting down prior to landing may not be the right decision if the running engine provides no immediate safety risk. If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again.



            Considering that most airports have a bit (or a lot) of extra runway, EMAS systems and often land at the end of the runway, coming in overspeed and burning through your tires and brakes may be safer than cutting the engine and potentially falling short of the runway.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 2 days ago









            CJ Dennis

            1073




            1073










            answered 2 days ago









            DaveDave

            63.2k4115230




            63.2k4115230








            • 18




              $begingroup$
              Regarding the last paragraph... Any landing you can walk away from, and all that, huh?
              $endgroup$
              – T.J.L.
              2 days ago






            • 6




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua - "If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again." - What if you hit a sudden crosswind and have to abort the landing? I'd assume 'doing it by the book' never shuts down an engine that isn't e.g., on fire.
              $endgroup$
              – Mazura
              2 days ago






            • 8




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua … and if things are really screwed, you can't be 100% sure you are going to shut down either the engine you intended, or the correct one. We only know this was a "stuck valve because of contaminated fuel" with hindsight. The whole thing could have been caused by an electrical or computer problem, in which case the result of any control action is unknown until you try it and see what happens!
              $endgroup$
              – alephzero
              2 days ago








            • 7




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua if you are on a 3 deg glideslope at reference speed with full flaps, if all the thrust is removed you are landing short in the housing development across the highway, unless you are already across the airport boundary, in which case you are landing in the approach lights or maybe if you're lucky you can stretch the glide to the runway and just land really hard.
              $endgroup$
              – John K
              2 days ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua part of the point is that you avoid shutting down an engine unless absolutely necessary - it's safe to do an overspeed landing to a certain point, so why unnecessarily risk? Take British Midland Flight 92 as an example - an engine shed a turbine blade. The crew diverted and shut the engine down. Only they shut the wrong one down, and their actions in doing so just happened to mask the effect (turned off autothrottle, which throttled back the duff engine as well), until they were on approach and throttled back up, which caused a complete failure and a crash just short of the runway.
              $endgroup$
              – Moo
              2 hours ago














            • 18




              $begingroup$
              Regarding the last paragraph... Any landing you can walk away from, and all that, huh?
              $endgroup$
              – T.J.L.
              2 days ago






            • 6




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua - "If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again." - What if you hit a sudden crosswind and have to abort the landing? I'd assume 'doing it by the book' never shuts down an engine that isn't e.g., on fire.
              $endgroup$
              – Mazura
              2 days ago






            • 8




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua … and if things are really screwed, you can't be 100% sure you are going to shut down either the engine you intended, or the correct one. We only know this was a "stuck valve because of contaminated fuel" with hindsight. The whole thing could have been caused by an electrical or computer problem, in which case the result of any control action is unknown until you try it and see what happens!
              $endgroup$
              – alephzero
              2 days ago








            • 7




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua if you are on a 3 deg glideslope at reference speed with full flaps, if all the thrust is removed you are landing short in the housing development across the highway, unless you are already across the airport boundary, in which case you are landing in the approach lights or maybe if you're lucky you can stretch the glide to the runway and just land really hard.
              $endgroup$
              – John K
              2 days ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              @Joshua part of the point is that you avoid shutting down an engine unless absolutely necessary - it's safe to do an overspeed landing to a certain point, so why unnecessarily risk? Take British Midland Flight 92 as an example - an engine shed a turbine blade. The crew diverted and shut the engine down. Only they shut the wrong one down, and their actions in doing so just happened to mask the effect (turned off autothrottle, which throttled back the duff engine as well), until they were on approach and throttled back up, which caused a complete failure and a crash just short of the runway.
              $endgroup$
              – Moo
              2 hours ago








            18




            18




            $begingroup$
            Regarding the last paragraph... Any landing you can walk away from, and all that, huh?
            $endgroup$
            – T.J.L.
            2 days ago




            $begingroup$
            Regarding the last paragraph... Any landing you can walk away from, and all that, huh?
            $endgroup$
            – T.J.L.
            2 days ago




            6




            6




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua - "If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again." - What if you hit a sudden crosswind and have to abort the landing? I'd assume 'doing it by the book' never shuts down an engine that isn't e.g., on fire.
            $endgroup$
            – Mazura
            2 days ago




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua - "If you shut down a problematic engine in flight you run the serious risk of not being able to get it started again." - What if you hit a sudden crosswind and have to abort the landing? I'd assume 'doing it by the book' never shuts down an engine that isn't e.g., on fire.
            $endgroup$
            – Mazura
            2 days ago




            8




            8




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua … and if things are really screwed, you can't be 100% sure you are going to shut down either the engine you intended, or the correct one. We only know this was a "stuck valve because of contaminated fuel" with hindsight. The whole thing could have been caused by an electrical or computer problem, in which case the result of any control action is unknown until you try it and see what happens!
            $endgroup$
            – alephzero
            2 days ago






            $begingroup$
            @Joshua … and if things are really screwed, you can't be 100% sure you are going to shut down either the engine you intended, or the correct one. We only know this was a "stuck valve because of contaminated fuel" with hindsight. The whole thing could have been caused by an electrical or computer problem, in which case the result of any control action is unknown until you try it and see what happens!
            $endgroup$
            – alephzero
            2 days ago






            7




            7




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua if you are on a 3 deg glideslope at reference speed with full flaps, if all the thrust is removed you are landing short in the housing development across the highway, unless you are already across the airport boundary, in which case you are landing in the approach lights or maybe if you're lucky you can stretch the glide to the runway and just land really hard.
            $endgroup$
            – John K
            2 days ago




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua if you are on a 3 deg glideslope at reference speed with full flaps, if all the thrust is removed you are landing short in the housing development across the highway, unless you are already across the airport boundary, in which case you are landing in the approach lights or maybe if you're lucky you can stretch the glide to the runway and just land really hard.
            $endgroup$
            – John K
            2 days ago




            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua part of the point is that you avoid shutting down an engine unless absolutely necessary - it's safe to do an overspeed landing to a certain point, so why unnecessarily risk? Take British Midland Flight 92 as an example - an engine shed a turbine blade. The crew diverted and shut the engine down. Only they shut the wrong one down, and their actions in doing so just happened to mask the effect (turned off autothrottle, which throttled back the duff engine as well), until they were on approach and throttled back up, which caused a complete failure and a crash just short of the runway.
            $endgroup$
            – Moo
            2 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            @Joshua part of the point is that you avoid shutting down an engine unless absolutely necessary - it's safe to do an overspeed landing to a certain point, so why unnecessarily risk? Take British Midland Flight 92 as an example - an engine shed a turbine blade. The crew diverted and shut the engine down. Only they shut the wrong one down, and their actions in doing so just happened to mask the effect (turned off autothrottle, which throttled back the duff engine as well), until they were on approach and throttled back up, which caused a complete failure and a crash just short of the runway.
            $endgroup$
            – Moo
            2 hours ago











            40












            $begingroup$

            Engine #2 wasn't doing its job either



            Had the situation just been engine #1 stuck at high thrust, with engine 2 normally controllable, than what you describe would be a reasonable response to the situation. However, that was not the case with CX780 -- during approach, Engine #2 was stuck at 17% N1 (or rather below idle) and thus delivering effectively nil thrust.



            As a result, the pilots dared not shut down engine #1 until they were safely stopped on the ground.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$









            • 1




              $begingroup$
              All this talk of engine #1 and #2 I assumed that #3 and #4 were functioning normally for quite a while whilst reading here.
              $endgroup$
              – Flexo
              13 hours ago






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Flexo -- nope, only two engines to be had here!
              $endgroup$
              – UnrecognizedFallingObject
              7 hours ago
















            40












            $begingroup$

            Engine #2 wasn't doing its job either



            Had the situation just been engine #1 stuck at high thrust, with engine 2 normally controllable, than what you describe would be a reasonable response to the situation. However, that was not the case with CX780 -- during approach, Engine #2 was stuck at 17% N1 (or rather below idle) and thus delivering effectively nil thrust.



            As a result, the pilots dared not shut down engine #1 until they were safely stopped on the ground.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$









            • 1




              $begingroup$
              All this talk of engine #1 and #2 I assumed that #3 and #4 were functioning normally for quite a while whilst reading here.
              $endgroup$
              – Flexo
              13 hours ago






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Flexo -- nope, only two engines to be had here!
              $endgroup$
              – UnrecognizedFallingObject
              7 hours ago














            40












            40








            40





            $begingroup$

            Engine #2 wasn't doing its job either



            Had the situation just been engine #1 stuck at high thrust, with engine 2 normally controllable, than what you describe would be a reasonable response to the situation. However, that was not the case with CX780 -- during approach, Engine #2 was stuck at 17% N1 (or rather below idle) and thus delivering effectively nil thrust.



            As a result, the pilots dared not shut down engine #1 until they were safely stopped on the ground.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Engine #2 wasn't doing its job either



            Had the situation just been engine #1 stuck at high thrust, with engine 2 normally controllable, than what you describe would be a reasonable response to the situation. However, that was not the case with CX780 -- during approach, Engine #2 was stuck at 17% N1 (or rather below idle) and thus delivering effectively nil thrust.



            As a result, the pilots dared not shut down engine #1 until they were safely stopped on the ground.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited yesterday









            Federico

            25.3k16101152




            25.3k16101152










            answered 2 days ago









            UnrecognizedFallingObjectUnrecognizedFallingObject

            8,52732379




            8,52732379








            • 1




              $begingroup$
              All this talk of engine #1 and #2 I assumed that #3 and #4 were functioning normally for quite a while whilst reading here.
              $endgroup$
              – Flexo
              13 hours ago






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Flexo -- nope, only two engines to be had here!
              $endgroup$
              – UnrecognizedFallingObject
              7 hours ago














            • 1




              $begingroup$
              All this talk of engine #1 and #2 I assumed that #3 and #4 were functioning normally for quite a while whilst reading here.
              $endgroup$
              – Flexo
              13 hours ago






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Flexo -- nope, only two engines to be had here!
              $endgroup$
              – UnrecognizedFallingObject
              7 hours ago








            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            All this talk of engine #1 and #2 I assumed that #3 and #4 were functioning normally for quite a while whilst reading here.
            $endgroup$
            – Flexo
            13 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            All this talk of engine #1 and #2 I assumed that #3 and #4 were functioning normally for quite a while whilst reading here.
            $endgroup$
            – Flexo
            13 hours ago




            3




            3




            $begingroup$
            @Flexo -- nope, only two engines to be had here!
            $endgroup$
            – UnrecognizedFallingObject
            7 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            @Flexo -- nope, only two engines to be had here!
            $endgroup$
            – UnrecognizedFallingObject
            7 hours ago











            16












            $begingroup$

            From the incident report section 1.1.4:




            a. At 0519 hrs during the descent to a cleared level of FL230, ECAM
            messages “ENG 1 CTL SYS FAULT” and “ENG 2 STALL” were annunciated
            within a short period of time. According to the Commander, a light
            “pop” sound was heard and some “ozone” and “burning” smell was
            detected shortly before the ECAM message “ENG 2 STALL”




            Then later:




            e. At 0530 hrs, when the aircraft was approximately 45 nm southeast
            from VHHH and was about to level off at 8,000 ft AMSL, ECAM message
            “ENG 1 STALL” was annunciated.




            So now both engines are out, they started the APU and successfully managed to restart #1:




            h. The crew moved the thrust levers to check the engine control but
            there was no direct response from the engines. The No. 1 engine speed
            eventually increased to about 74% N1 with the No. 1 thrust lever in
            the CLB (climb) detent position. The No. 2 engine speed remained at
            sub-idle about 17% N1, with the No. 2 t hrust lever at the IDLE
            position.




            Engine 2 was out of action, producing no power, engine 1 had failed, but was temporarily working although they couldn't adjust power, if they'd shut that down too they'd have been gliding and probably would have crashed with total loss of life. They didn't have the power to climb and had one shot at landing, so they made damn sure they got it on the runway, not a bad landing considering the circumstances.



            On a humorous note, another example of pilot understatement:




            l. At 0539 hrs, the Commander made another PA advising the passengers
            of having “small problem with the engines” with small vibrations and
            requesting them to remain seated and follow the directions from the
            cabin crew.







            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              It's only a "small problem" unless the engine is completely missing.
              $endgroup$
              – Jacob Krall
              15 hours ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              To be fair, he was technically correct. The actual problem was microscopic...
              $endgroup$
              – TemporalWolf
              10 hours ago
















            16












            $begingroup$

            From the incident report section 1.1.4:




            a. At 0519 hrs during the descent to a cleared level of FL230, ECAM
            messages “ENG 1 CTL SYS FAULT” and “ENG 2 STALL” were annunciated
            within a short period of time. According to the Commander, a light
            “pop” sound was heard and some “ozone” and “burning” smell was
            detected shortly before the ECAM message “ENG 2 STALL”




            Then later:




            e. At 0530 hrs, when the aircraft was approximately 45 nm southeast
            from VHHH and was about to level off at 8,000 ft AMSL, ECAM message
            “ENG 1 STALL” was annunciated.




            So now both engines are out, they started the APU and successfully managed to restart #1:




            h. The crew moved the thrust levers to check the engine control but
            there was no direct response from the engines. The No. 1 engine speed
            eventually increased to about 74% N1 with the No. 1 thrust lever in
            the CLB (climb) detent position. The No. 2 engine speed remained at
            sub-idle about 17% N1, with the No. 2 t hrust lever at the IDLE
            position.




            Engine 2 was out of action, producing no power, engine 1 had failed, but was temporarily working although they couldn't adjust power, if they'd shut that down too they'd have been gliding and probably would have crashed with total loss of life. They didn't have the power to climb and had one shot at landing, so they made damn sure they got it on the runway, not a bad landing considering the circumstances.



            On a humorous note, another example of pilot understatement:




            l. At 0539 hrs, the Commander made another PA advising the passengers
            of having “small problem with the engines” with small vibrations and
            requesting them to remain seated and follow the directions from the
            cabin crew.







            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$













            • $begingroup$
              It's only a "small problem" unless the engine is completely missing.
              $endgroup$
              – Jacob Krall
              15 hours ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              To be fair, he was technically correct. The actual problem was microscopic...
              $endgroup$
              – TemporalWolf
              10 hours ago














            16












            16








            16





            $begingroup$

            From the incident report section 1.1.4:




            a. At 0519 hrs during the descent to a cleared level of FL230, ECAM
            messages “ENG 1 CTL SYS FAULT” and “ENG 2 STALL” were annunciated
            within a short period of time. According to the Commander, a light
            “pop” sound was heard and some “ozone” and “burning” smell was
            detected shortly before the ECAM message “ENG 2 STALL”




            Then later:




            e. At 0530 hrs, when the aircraft was approximately 45 nm southeast
            from VHHH and was about to level off at 8,000 ft AMSL, ECAM message
            “ENG 1 STALL” was annunciated.




            So now both engines are out, they started the APU and successfully managed to restart #1:




            h. The crew moved the thrust levers to check the engine control but
            there was no direct response from the engines. The No. 1 engine speed
            eventually increased to about 74% N1 with the No. 1 thrust lever in
            the CLB (climb) detent position. The No. 2 engine speed remained at
            sub-idle about 17% N1, with the No. 2 t hrust lever at the IDLE
            position.




            Engine 2 was out of action, producing no power, engine 1 had failed, but was temporarily working although they couldn't adjust power, if they'd shut that down too they'd have been gliding and probably would have crashed with total loss of life. They didn't have the power to climb and had one shot at landing, so they made damn sure they got it on the runway, not a bad landing considering the circumstances.



            On a humorous note, another example of pilot understatement:




            l. At 0539 hrs, the Commander made another PA advising the passengers
            of having “small problem with the engines” with small vibrations and
            requesting them to remain seated and follow the directions from the
            cabin crew.







            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            From the incident report section 1.1.4:




            a. At 0519 hrs during the descent to a cleared level of FL230, ECAM
            messages “ENG 1 CTL SYS FAULT” and “ENG 2 STALL” were annunciated
            within a short period of time. According to the Commander, a light
            “pop” sound was heard and some “ozone” and “burning” smell was
            detected shortly before the ECAM message “ENG 2 STALL”




            Then later:




            e. At 0530 hrs, when the aircraft was approximately 45 nm southeast
            from VHHH and was about to level off at 8,000 ft AMSL, ECAM message
            “ENG 1 STALL” was annunciated.




            So now both engines are out, they started the APU and successfully managed to restart #1:




            h. The crew moved the thrust levers to check the engine control but
            there was no direct response from the engines. The No. 1 engine speed
            eventually increased to about 74% N1 with the No. 1 thrust lever in
            the CLB (climb) detent position. The No. 2 engine speed remained at
            sub-idle about 17% N1, with the No. 2 t hrust lever at the IDLE
            position.




            Engine 2 was out of action, producing no power, engine 1 had failed, but was temporarily working although they couldn't adjust power, if they'd shut that down too they'd have been gliding and probably would have crashed with total loss of life. They didn't have the power to climb and had one shot at landing, so they made damn sure they got it on the runway, not a bad landing considering the circumstances.



            On a humorous note, another example of pilot understatement:




            l. At 0539 hrs, the Commander made another PA advising the passengers
            of having “small problem with the engines” with small vibrations and
            requesting them to remain seated and follow the directions from the
            cabin crew.








            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited yesterday

























            answered yesterday









            GdDGdD

            31.2k382130




            31.2k382130












            • $begingroup$
              It's only a "small problem" unless the engine is completely missing.
              $endgroup$
              – Jacob Krall
              15 hours ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              To be fair, he was technically correct. The actual problem was microscopic...
              $endgroup$
              – TemporalWolf
              10 hours ago


















            • $begingroup$
              It's only a "small problem" unless the engine is completely missing.
              $endgroup$
              – Jacob Krall
              15 hours ago






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              To be fair, he was technically correct. The actual problem was microscopic...
              $endgroup$
              – TemporalWolf
              10 hours ago
















            $begingroup$
            It's only a "small problem" unless the engine is completely missing.
            $endgroup$
            – Jacob Krall
            15 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            It's only a "small problem" unless the engine is completely missing.
            $endgroup$
            – Jacob Krall
            15 hours ago




            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            To be fair, he was technically correct. The actual problem was microscopic...
            $endgroup$
            – TemporalWolf
            10 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            To be fair, he was technically correct. The actual problem was microscopic...
            $endgroup$
            – TemporalWolf
            10 hours ago











            3












            $begingroup$

            Aside from what Unrec. and GdD point out, even if the other engine had been running perfectly...



            A frequent problem with twin engine airplanes is shutting down the wrong engine. Nobody ever expects or plans to shut down the wrong engine, but it happens anyway.



            So a crew is very cautious to shutdown an engine that is working.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$


















              3












              $begingroup$

              Aside from what Unrec. and GdD point out, even if the other engine had been running perfectly...



              A frequent problem with twin engine airplanes is shutting down the wrong engine. Nobody ever expects or plans to shut down the wrong engine, but it happens anyway.



              So a crew is very cautious to shutdown an engine that is working.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$
















                3












                3








                3





                $begingroup$

                Aside from what Unrec. and GdD point out, even if the other engine had been running perfectly...



                A frequent problem with twin engine airplanes is shutting down the wrong engine. Nobody ever expects or plans to shut down the wrong engine, but it happens anyway.



                So a crew is very cautious to shutdown an engine that is working.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                Aside from what Unrec. and GdD point out, even if the other engine had been running perfectly...



                A frequent problem with twin engine airplanes is shutting down the wrong engine. Nobody ever expects or plans to shut down the wrong engine, but it happens anyway.



                So a crew is very cautious to shutdown an engine that is working.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered yesterday









                HarperHarper

                2,820619




                2,820619






















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