Would a flight consisting of solely first-class passengers be cancelled due to center-of-gravity issues?












30












$begingroup$


Consider any modern jetliner (narrow-body and widebody separately) in a standard 2 or 3 class configuration. If somehow only first-class or business-class passengers bought seats, would that plane be impossible to fly because all the weight is focused up front? And since they are premium-class they can't be moved aft for load-balancing.



If this is (practically) impossible, then doesn't that suggest there is a minimum number of economy passengers required as "ballast" for every premium passenger?



I suspect one answer might be that the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled. But let's suppose in that case the aircraft needed to be flown anyway because it was required to be at the destination airport, profitably or not. Doesn't that suggest there is a maximum "premium-only" passenger count that would actually be less than the number of premium seats? I.e they would have to tell some premium passengers "sorry you're bumped, or you can go to economy" despite the plane being 80% empty?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 17




    $begingroup$
    You could always put some heavy cargo in the aft section of the hold...
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    2 days ago






  • 21




    $begingroup$
    RE: "the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled." this is not all that matters, the plane is already scheduled for a next flight leaving from the destination. You still have to fly the plane to the destination so it can makes it's next flight.
    $endgroup$
    – James Jenkins
    2 days ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I was on an IAD to LAX flight where 1st class was filled by bumping passengers up, but all "Economy Plus" passengers were re-seated close to or behind the wing. Every economy passenger still had the entire row to themselves. I learned from the woman at check-in that this was not the emptiest that flight flew, but that it also was not a daily flight, but a flight scheduled as needed to ensure aircraft rotated through a maintenance base.
    $endgroup$
    – Randall
    2 days ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    The BA1 (Club World London City) flight is business class only to begin with, although that's not what you asked for. Back on topic: I've heard from a colleague that on an almost-empty short haul flight in Europe, he was booked in business and asked by very apologetic crew if he and a few other passengers wouldn't mind sitting at the rear to balance the plane out a bit, as the alternative was that the captain would have to order some ballast and that would delay the flight. As far as I know the seats were the same anyway except that you get the middle one left empty up front.
    $endgroup$
    – Bristol
    2 days ago








  • 12




    $begingroup$
    Referring to economy passengers as "ballast" also helps explain a lot about how airlines treat economy passengers...
    $endgroup$
    – bta
    2 days ago
















30












$begingroup$


Consider any modern jetliner (narrow-body and widebody separately) in a standard 2 or 3 class configuration. If somehow only first-class or business-class passengers bought seats, would that plane be impossible to fly because all the weight is focused up front? And since they are premium-class they can't be moved aft for load-balancing.



If this is (practically) impossible, then doesn't that suggest there is a minimum number of economy passengers required as "ballast" for every premium passenger?



I suspect one answer might be that the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled. But let's suppose in that case the aircraft needed to be flown anyway because it was required to be at the destination airport, profitably or not. Doesn't that suggest there is a maximum "premium-only" passenger count that would actually be less than the number of premium seats? I.e they would have to tell some premium passengers "sorry you're bumped, or you can go to economy" despite the plane being 80% empty?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 17




    $begingroup$
    You could always put some heavy cargo in the aft section of the hold...
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    2 days ago






  • 21




    $begingroup$
    RE: "the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled." this is not all that matters, the plane is already scheduled for a next flight leaving from the destination. You still have to fly the plane to the destination so it can makes it's next flight.
    $endgroup$
    – James Jenkins
    2 days ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I was on an IAD to LAX flight where 1st class was filled by bumping passengers up, but all "Economy Plus" passengers were re-seated close to or behind the wing. Every economy passenger still had the entire row to themselves. I learned from the woman at check-in that this was not the emptiest that flight flew, but that it also was not a daily flight, but a flight scheduled as needed to ensure aircraft rotated through a maintenance base.
    $endgroup$
    – Randall
    2 days ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    The BA1 (Club World London City) flight is business class only to begin with, although that's not what you asked for. Back on topic: I've heard from a colleague that on an almost-empty short haul flight in Europe, he was booked in business and asked by very apologetic crew if he and a few other passengers wouldn't mind sitting at the rear to balance the plane out a bit, as the alternative was that the captain would have to order some ballast and that would delay the flight. As far as I know the seats were the same anyway except that you get the middle one left empty up front.
    $endgroup$
    – Bristol
    2 days ago








  • 12




    $begingroup$
    Referring to economy passengers as "ballast" also helps explain a lot about how airlines treat economy passengers...
    $endgroup$
    – bta
    2 days ago














30












30








30


2



$begingroup$


Consider any modern jetliner (narrow-body and widebody separately) in a standard 2 or 3 class configuration. If somehow only first-class or business-class passengers bought seats, would that plane be impossible to fly because all the weight is focused up front? And since they are premium-class they can't be moved aft for load-balancing.



If this is (practically) impossible, then doesn't that suggest there is a minimum number of economy passengers required as "ballast" for every premium passenger?



I suspect one answer might be that the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled. But let's suppose in that case the aircraft needed to be flown anyway because it was required to be at the destination airport, profitably or not. Doesn't that suggest there is a maximum "premium-only" passenger count that would actually be less than the number of premium seats? I.e they would have to tell some premium passengers "sorry you're bumped, or you can go to economy" despite the plane being 80% empty?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




Consider any modern jetliner (narrow-body and widebody separately) in a standard 2 or 3 class configuration. If somehow only first-class or business-class passengers bought seats, would that plane be impossible to fly because all the weight is focused up front? And since they are premium-class they can't be moved aft for load-balancing.



If this is (practically) impossible, then doesn't that suggest there is a minimum number of economy passengers required as "ballast" for every premium passenger?



I suspect one answer might be that the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled. But let's suppose in that case the aircraft needed to be flown anyway because it was required to be at the destination airport, profitably or not. Doesn't that suggest there is a maximum "premium-only" passenger count that would actually be less than the number of premium seats? I.e they would have to tell some premium passengers "sorry you're bumped, or you can go to economy" despite the plane being 80% empty?







commercial-aviation passenger flight-schedules






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 2 days ago









mikemike

171125




171125








  • 17




    $begingroup$
    You could always put some heavy cargo in the aft section of the hold...
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    2 days ago






  • 21




    $begingroup$
    RE: "the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled." this is not all that matters, the plane is already scheduled for a next flight leaving from the destination. You still have to fly the plane to the destination so it can makes it's next flight.
    $endgroup$
    – James Jenkins
    2 days ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I was on an IAD to LAX flight where 1st class was filled by bumping passengers up, but all "Economy Plus" passengers were re-seated close to or behind the wing. Every economy passenger still had the entire row to themselves. I learned from the woman at check-in that this was not the emptiest that flight flew, but that it also was not a daily flight, but a flight scheduled as needed to ensure aircraft rotated through a maintenance base.
    $endgroup$
    – Randall
    2 days ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    The BA1 (Club World London City) flight is business class only to begin with, although that's not what you asked for. Back on topic: I've heard from a colleague that on an almost-empty short haul flight in Europe, he was booked in business and asked by very apologetic crew if he and a few other passengers wouldn't mind sitting at the rear to balance the plane out a bit, as the alternative was that the captain would have to order some ballast and that would delay the flight. As far as I know the seats were the same anyway except that you get the middle one left empty up front.
    $endgroup$
    – Bristol
    2 days ago








  • 12




    $begingroup$
    Referring to economy passengers as "ballast" also helps explain a lot about how airlines treat economy passengers...
    $endgroup$
    – bta
    2 days ago














  • 17




    $begingroup$
    You could always put some heavy cargo in the aft section of the hold...
    $endgroup$
    – Dave
    2 days ago






  • 21




    $begingroup$
    RE: "the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled." this is not all that matters, the plane is already scheduled for a next flight leaving from the destination. You still have to fly the plane to the destination so it can makes it's next flight.
    $endgroup$
    – James Jenkins
    2 days ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I was on an IAD to LAX flight where 1st class was filled by bumping passengers up, but all "Economy Plus" passengers were re-seated close to or behind the wing. Every economy passenger still had the entire row to themselves. I learned from the woman at check-in that this was not the emptiest that flight flew, but that it also was not a daily flight, but a flight scheduled as needed to ensure aircraft rotated through a maintenance base.
    $endgroup$
    – Randall
    2 days ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    The BA1 (Club World London City) flight is business class only to begin with, although that's not what you asked for. Back on topic: I've heard from a colleague that on an almost-empty short haul flight in Europe, he was booked in business and asked by very apologetic crew if he and a few other passengers wouldn't mind sitting at the rear to balance the plane out a bit, as the alternative was that the captain would have to order some ballast and that would delay the flight. As far as I know the seats were the same anyway except that you get the middle one left empty up front.
    $endgroup$
    – Bristol
    2 days ago








  • 12




    $begingroup$
    Referring to economy passengers as "ballast" also helps explain a lot about how airlines treat economy passengers...
    $endgroup$
    – bta
    2 days ago








17




17




$begingroup$
You could always put some heavy cargo in the aft section of the hold...
$endgroup$
– Dave
2 days ago




$begingroup$
You could always put some heavy cargo in the aft section of the hold...
$endgroup$
– Dave
2 days ago




21




21




$begingroup$
RE: "the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled." this is not all that matters, the plane is already scheduled for a next flight leaving from the destination. You still have to fly the plane to the destination so it can makes it's next flight.
$endgroup$
– James Jenkins
2 days ago




$begingroup$
RE: "the flight wouldn't be profitable anyway with few-to-none economy seats sold, so it would be cancelled." this is not all that matters, the plane is already scheduled for a next flight leaving from the destination. You still have to fly the plane to the destination so it can makes it's next flight.
$endgroup$
– James Jenkins
2 days ago




4




4




$begingroup$
I was on an IAD to LAX flight where 1st class was filled by bumping passengers up, but all "Economy Plus" passengers were re-seated close to or behind the wing. Every economy passenger still had the entire row to themselves. I learned from the woman at check-in that this was not the emptiest that flight flew, but that it also was not a daily flight, but a flight scheduled as needed to ensure aircraft rotated through a maintenance base.
$endgroup$
– Randall
2 days ago




$begingroup$
I was on an IAD to LAX flight where 1st class was filled by bumping passengers up, but all "Economy Plus" passengers were re-seated close to or behind the wing. Every economy passenger still had the entire row to themselves. I learned from the woman at check-in that this was not the emptiest that flight flew, but that it also was not a daily flight, but a flight scheduled as needed to ensure aircraft rotated through a maintenance base.
$endgroup$
– Randall
2 days ago




5




5




$begingroup$
The BA1 (Club World London City) flight is business class only to begin with, although that's not what you asked for. Back on topic: I've heard from a colleague that on an almost-empty short haul flight in Europe, he was booked in business and asked by very apologetic crew if he and a few other passengers wouldn't mind sitting at the rear to balance the plane out a bit, as the alternative was that the captain would have to order some ballast and that would delay the flight. As far as I know the seats were the same anyway except that you get the middle one left empty up front.
$endgroup$
– Bristol
2 days ago






$begingroup$
The BA1 (Club World London City) flight is business class only to begin with, although that's not what you asked for. Back on topic: I've heard from a colleague that on an almost-empty short haul flight in Europe, he was booked in business and asked by very apologetic crew if he and a few other passengers wouldn't mind sitting at the rear to balance the plane out a bit, as the alternative was that the captain would have to order some ballast and that would delay the flight. As far as I know the seats were the same anyway except that you get the middle one left empty up front.
$endgroup$
– Bristol
2 days ago






12




12




$begingroup$
Referring to economy passengers as "ballast" also helps explain a lot about how airlines treat economy passengers...
$endgroup$
– bta
2 days ago




$begingroup$
Referring to economy passengers as "ballast" also helps explain a lot about how airlines treat economy passengers...
$endgroup$
– bta
2 days ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















35












$begingroup$

It is much more difficult to load a plane so that the center of gravity ends up being too far forward than too far aft.
Excessive weight forward can almost always be counteracted by increased trim on the stabilizer.



When small GA planes crash due to Balance, its almost always too much rear-weight, not too much forward-weight.



Especially in the case you describe, the pax probably have luggage, and the luggage can be loaded in the rear of the plane for balance.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 25




    $begingroup$
    reminds me of the anecdote "Nose heavy planes fly poorly, tail heavy planes don't fly at all"
    $endgroup$
    – Jayson
    2 days ago






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    As an example of one effect of forward (but not out of limits) CG: My instructor and I could never get a proper spin in a 2-32. He was a big guy, and having him in the rear seat moved the CG well forward.. With the forward CG, there wasn't enough aft stick to keep the wing stalled. The plane would break the stall all by itself. Flying solo, I had to add ballast to get the CG forward enough to be in limits, so I'm sure I could have done a spin solo. But of course I never tried it solo.
    $endgroup$
    – Wayne Conrad
    2 days ago








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    I re-read my first sentence and stand by it. It is very hard to load a plane too far forward. You could literally pack the cockpit with dumbbells, and still manage to fly properly. You can easily and accidentally load a plane too far aft.
    $endgroup$
    – abelenky
    2 days ago








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Would the location of 1000kg (ten 100kg passengers) even be noticeable on a 60,000kg plane (737)? Say if they all walked from the first 4 to the last 4 rows? I remember flying in a C130 and many of us were up walking around during a lot of the flight - until we corkscrewed into BGW.
    $endgroup$
    – CramerTV
    2 days ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    @abelenky: If a plane's center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift and its airspeed is insufficient to control pitch, it will nose down until airspeed has increases enough to gain pitch control. Moving the COG forward will increase the minimum airspeed needed for pitch control, but pitch control will be stable. If COG is behind COL and airspeed gets too low, the plain will nose up, reducing airspeed further, causing the plane to nose up further, until the airspeed drops so low the plane falls out of the sky without ever regaining useful forward airspeed.
    $endgroup$
    – supercat
    2 days ago



















27












$begingroup$

As has been noted in the previous answer and comments to date, you can compensate (if you need to) for a first class loaded with pax but with the rest of the cabin empty by putting the pax bags in the rear.



Generalized statements like the above sometimes have exceptions, but I'd be surprised if that one did.



I worked a weight and balance for a 747-400F putting the equivalent of 72 pax at 200 lb each in the forward quarter of the airplane. That moved the c.g. %mac from 30.8 to 22.4, still well aft of the zero fuel weight forward c.g. limit of 16.0.



Then I put in 200000 lb of fuel, 2000 for taxi, 170000 burn. The forward c.g. limits for the taxi envelope, takeoff envelope, and landing envelope were still not exceeded.



The moral of the story thus far is that passengers take up a lot of room, but they don't weigh much relatively speaking.



However, when I loaded 350000 lb of fuel, it put the taxi c.g. at 10.9, just forward of its limit of 11.0, and the takeoff c.g. at 10.8, just forward of its limit of 11.0. I fixed the out of limits condition by putting in 50 lbs of baggage for each pax, splitting the weight between K48L and K48R, the two aftmost lower cargo ULD positions.



If you want to take a look at the test load with the 350000 lb of fuel but before adding in the bags, go to https://terryliittschwager.com/WB/index.php. Once there and after dismissing the initial message window, select the SERVER Load at the top of the list. It has a false date of 2222-01-08 to keep it at the top.



You can fix the out of limits condition by scrolling down to K48L and K48R and putting 1800 lb in each.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is only anecdotal evidence, as it was 20 years ago and I don't remember or have access to any specific numbers, but when I was testing load&balance program we have developed for 747-300, when it was almost fully loaded (with fuel etc) and perfectly balanced (middle of envelope), moving 20 pax from one very end of the plane to another end was causing it to exceed allowed envelope.
    $endgroup$
    – Artur Biesiadowski
    yesterday






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is an incredible real-world answer! Thanks man!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ArturBiesiadowski Do you happen to recall which of the envelopes it was in the middle of and which envelope was exceeded by moving the 20 pax? The only way I can think of that the movement of 20 pax would move one envelope out of limits when before the movement one envelope was in the middle would be that the zfw c.g. was next to a limit while the takeoff c.g. was in the middle.
    $endgroup$
    – Terry
    yesterday



















7












$begingroup$

The passengers don't weigh enough to seriously affect the weight & balance, especially since there are usually less than 20 people in first class. I was on a Pan Am flight soon before its demise, and there were maybe 10 people on the plane. They invited everyone up to first class, after all the baggage had been loaded, so there was no compensating for the shifted passenger load.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting. My mom took Flight 800 two days after the infamous explosion and she told me the same story. The flight was almost empty and the crew was in shock and mourning the loss of coworkers. They invited everybody to first class as a result. That flight did not crash either.
    $endgroup$
    – NicVerAZ
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For smaller aircraft (at least, for an A321), it would seem that they do. In that incident, they re-balanced the airplane by moving six passengers to the back.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    A fascinating anecdote! Good one!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday











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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









35












$begingroup$

It is much more difficult to load a plane so that the center of gravity ends up being too far forward than too far aft.
Excessive weight forward can almost always be counteracted by increased trim on the stabilizer.



When small GA planes crash due to Balance, its almost always too much rear-weight, not too much forward-weight.



Especially in the case you describe, the pax probably have luggage, and the luggage can be loaded in the rear of the plane for balance.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 25




    $begingroup$
    reminds me of the anecdote "Nose heavy planes fly poorly, tail heavy planes don't fly at all"
    $endgroup$
    – Jayson
    2 days ago






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    As an example of one effect of forward (but not out of limits) CG: My instructor and I could never get a proper spin in a 2-32. He was a big guy, and having him in the rear seat moved the CG well forward.. With the forward CG, there wasn't enough aft stick to keep the wing stalled. The plane would break the stall all by itself. Flying solo, I had to add ballast to get the CG forward enough to be in limits, so I'm sure I could have done a spin solo. But of course I never tried it solo.
    $endgroup$
    – Wayne Conrad
    2 days ago








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    I re-read my first sentence and stand by it. It is very hard to load a plane too far forward. You could literally pack the cockpit with dumbbells, and still manage to fly properly. You can easily and accidentally load a plane too far aft.
    $endgroup$
    – abelenky
    2 days ago








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Would the location of 1000kg (ten 100kg passengers) even be noticeable on a 60,000kg plane (737)? Say if they all walked from the first 4 to the last 4 rows? I remember flying in a C130 and many of us were up walking around during a lot of the flight - until we corkscrewed into BGW.
    $endgroup$
    – CramerTV
    2 days ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    @abelenky: If a plane's center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift and its airspeed is insufficient to control pitch, it will nose down until airspeed has increases enough to gain pitch control. Moving the COG forward will increase the minimum airspeed needed for pitch control, but pitch control will be stable. If COG is behind COL and airspeed gets too low, the plain will nose up, reducing airspeed further, causing the plane to nose up further, until the airspeed drops so low the plane falls out of the sky without ever regaining useful forward airspeed.
    $endgroup$
    – supercat
    2 days ago
















35












$begingroup$

It is much more difficult to load a plane so that the center of gravity ends up being too far forward than too far aft.
Excessive weight forward can almost always be counteracted by increased trim on the stabilizer.



When small GA planes crash due to Balance, its almost always too much rear-weight, not too much forward-weight.



Especially in the case you describe, the pax probably have luggage, and the luggage can be loaded in the rear of the plane for balance.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 25




    $begingroup$
    reminds me of the anecdote "Nose heavy planes fly poorly, tail heavy planes don't fly at all"
    $endgroup$
    – Jayson
    2 days ago






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    As an example of one effect of forward (but not out of limits) CG: My instructor and I could never get a proper spin in a 2-32. He was a big guy, and having him in the rear seat moved the CG well forward.. With the forward CG, there wasn't enough aft stick to keep the wing stalled. The plane would break the stall all by itself. Flying solo, I had to add ballast to get the CG forward enough to be in limits, so I'm sure I could have done a spin solo. But of course I never tried it solo.
    $endgroup$
    – Wayne Conrad
    2 days ago








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    I re-read my first sentence and stand by it. It is very hard to load a plane too far forward. You could literally pack the cockpit with dumbbells, and still manage to fly properly. You can easily and accidentally load a plane too far aft.
    $endgroup$
    – abelenky
    2 days ago








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Would the location of 1000kg (ten 100kg passengers) even be noticeable on a 60,000kg plane (737)? Say if they all walked from the first 4 to the last 4 rows? I remember flying in a C130 and many of us were up walking around during a lot of the flight - until we corkscrewed into BGW.
    $endgroup$
    – CramerTV
    2 days ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    @abelenky: If a plane's center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift and its airspeed is insufficient to control pitch, it will nose down until airspeed has increases enough to gain pitch control. Moving the COG forward will increase the minimum airspeed needed for pitch control, but pitch control will be stable. If COG is behind COL and airspeed gets too low, the plain will nose up, reducing airspeed further, causing the plane to nose up further, until the airspeed drops so low the plane falls out of the sky without ever regaining useful forward airspeed.
    $endgroup$
    – supercat
    2 days ago














35












35








35





$begingroup$

It is much more difficult to load a plane so that the center of gravity ends up being too far forward than too far aft.
Excessive weight forward can almost always be counteracted by increased trim on the stabilizer.



When small GA planes crash due to Balance, its almost always too much rear-weight, not too much forward-weight.



Especially in the case you describe, the pax probably have luggage, and the luggage can be loaded in the rear of the plane for balance.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



It is much more difficult to load a plane so that the center of gravity ends up being too far forward than too far aft.
Excessive weight forward can almost always be counteracted by increased trim on the stabilizer.



When small GA planes crash due to Balance, its almost always too much rear-weight, not too much forward-weight.



Especially in the case you describe, the pax probably have luggage, and the luggage can be loaded in the rear of the plane for balance.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago

























answered 2 days ago









abelenkyabelenky

21.7k963108




21.7k963108








  • 25




    $begingroup$
    reminds me of the anecdote "Nose heavy planes fly poorly, tail heavy planes don't fly at all"
    $endgroup$
    – Jayson
    2 days ago






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    As an example of one effect of forward (but not out of limits) CG: My instructor and I could never get a proper spin in a 2-32. He was a big guy, and having him in the rear seat moved the CG well forward.. With the forward CG, there wasn't enough aft stick to keep the wing stalled. The plane would break the stall all by itself. Flying solo, I had to add ballast to get the CG forward enough to be in limits, so I'm sure I could have done a spin solo. But of course I never tried it solo.
    $endgroup$
    – Wayne Conrad
    2 days ago








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    I re-read my first sentence and stand by it. It is very hard to load a plane too far forward. You could literally pack the cockpit with dumbbells, and still manage to fly properly. You can easily and accidentally load a plane too far aft.
    $endgroup$
    – abelenky
    2 days ago








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Would the location of 1000kg (ten 100kg passengers) even be noticeable on a 60,000kg plane (737)? Say if they all walked from the first 4 to the last 4 rows? I remember flying in a C130 and many of us were up walking around during a lot of the flight - until we corkscrewed into BGW.
    $endgroup$
    – CramerTV
    2 days ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    @abelenky: If a plane's center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift and its airspeed is insufficient to control pitch, it will nose down until airspeed has increases enough to gain pitch control. Moving the COG forward will increase the minimum airspeed needed for pitch control, but pitch control will be stable. If COG is behind COL and airspeed gets too low, the plain will nose up, reducing airspeed further, causing the plane to nose up further, until the airspeed drops so low the plane falls out of the sky without ever regaining useful forward airspeed.
    $endgroup$
    – supercat
    2 days ago














  • 25




    $begingroup$
    reminds me of the anecdote "Nose heavy planes fly poorly, tail heavy planes don't fly at all"
    $endgroup$
    – Jayson
    2 days ago






  • 7




    $begingroup$
    As an example of one effect of forward (but not out of limits) CG: My instructor and I could never get a proper spin in a 2-32. He was a big guy, and having him in the rear seat moved the CG well forward.. With the forward CG, there wasn't enough aft stick to keep the wing stalled. The plane would break the stall all by itself. Flying solo, I had to add ballast to get the CG forward enough to be in limits, so I'm sure I could have done a spin solo. But of course I never tried it solo.
    $endgroup$
    – Wayne Conrad
    2 days ago








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    I re-read my first sentence and stand by it. It is very hard to load a plane too far forward. You could literally pack the cockpit with dumbbells, and still manage to fly properly. You can easily and accidentally load a plane too far aft.
    $endgroup$
    – abelenky
    2 days ago








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Would the location of 1000kg (ten 100kg passengers) even be noticeable on a 60,000kg plane (737)? Say if they all walked from the first 4 to the last 4 rows? I remember flying in a C130 and many of us were up walking around during a lot of the flight - until we corkscrewed into BGW.
    $endgroup$
    – CramerTV
    2 days ago






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    @abelenky: If a plane's center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift and its airspeed is insufficient to control pitch, it will nose down until airspeed has increases enough to gain pitch control. Moving the COG forward will increase the minimum airspeed needed for pitch control, but pitch control will be stable. If COG is behind COL and airspeed gets too low, the plain will nose up, reducing airspeed further, causing the plane to nose up further, until the airspeed drops so low the plane falls out of the sky without ever regaining useful forward airspeed.
    $endgroup$
    – supercat
    2 days ago








25




25




$begingroup$
reminds me of the anecdote "Nose heavy planes fly poorly, tail heavy planes don't fly at all"
$endgroup$
– Jayson
2 days ago




$begingroup$
reminds me of the anecdote "Nose heavy planes fly poorly, tail heavy planes don't fly at all"
$endgroup$
– Jayson
2 days ago




7




7




$begingroup$
As an example of one effect of forward (but not out of limits) CG: My instructor and I could never get a proper spin in a 2-32. He was a big guy, and having him in the rear seat moved the CG well forward.. With the forward CG, there wasn't enough aft stick to keep the wing stalled. The plane would break the stall all by itself. Flying solo, I had to add ballast to get the CG forward enough to be in limits, so I'm sure I could have done a spin solo. But of course I never tried it solo.
$endgroup$
– Wayne Conrad
2 days ago






$begingroup$
As an example of one effect of forward (but not out of limits) CG: My instructor and I could never get a proper spin in a 2-32. He was a big guy, and having him in the rear seat moved the CG well forward.. With the forward CG, there wasn't enough aft stick to keep the wing stalled. The plane would break the stall all by itself. Flying solo, I had to add ballast to get the CG forward enough to be in limits, so I'm sure I could have done a spin solo. But of course I never tried it solo.
$endgroup$
– Wayne Conrad
2 days ago






5




5




$begingroup$
I re-read my first sentence and stand by it. It is very hard to load a plane too far forward. You could literally pack the cockpit with dumbbells, and still manage to fly properly. You can easily and accidentally load a plane too far aft.
$endgroup$
– abelenky
2 days ago






$begingroup$
I re-read my first sentence and stand by it. It is very hard to load a plane too far forward. You could literally pack the cockpit with dumbbells, and still manage to fly properly. You can easily and accidentally load a plane too far aft.
$endgroup$
– abelenky
2 days ago






4




4




$begingroup$
Would the location of 1000kg (ten 100kg passengers) even be noticeable on a 60,000kg plane (737)? Say if they all walked from the first 4 to the last 4 rows? I remember flying in a C130 and many of us were up walking around during a lot of the flight - until we corkscrewed into BGW.
$endgroup$
– CramerTV
2 days ago




$begingroup$
Would the location of 1000kg (ten 100kg passengers) even be noticeable on a 60,000kg plane (737)? Say if they all walked from the first 4 to the last 4 rows? I remember flying in a C130 and many of us were up walking around during a lot of the flight - until we corkscrewed into BGW.
$endgroup$
– CramerTV
2 days ago




13




13




$begingroup$
@abelenky: If a plane's center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift and its airspeed is insufficient to control pitch, it will nose down until airspeed has increases enough to gain pitch control. Moving the COG forward will increase the minimum airspeed needed for pitch control, but pitch control will be stable. If COG is behind COL and airspeed gets too low, the plain will nose up, reducing airspeed further, causing the plane to nose up further, until the airspeed drops so low the plane falls out of the sky without ever regaining useful forward airspeed.
$endgroup$
– supercat
2 days ago




$begingroup$
@abelenky: If a plane's center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift and its airspeed is insufficient to control pitch, it will nose down until airspeed has increases enough to gain pitch control. Moving the COG forward will increase the minimum airspeed needed for pitch control, but pitch control will be stable. If COG is behind COL and airspeed gets too low, the plain will nose up, reducing airspeed further, causing the plane to nose up further, until the airspeed drops so low the plane falls out of the sky without ever regaining useful forward airspeed.
$endgroup$
– supercat
2 days ago











27












$begingroup$

As has been noted in the previous answer and comments to date, you can compensate (if you need to) for a first class loaded with pax but with the rest of the cabin empty by putting the pax bags in the rear.



Generalized statements like the above sometimes have exceptions, but I'd be surprised if that one did.



I worked a weight and balance for a 747-400F putting the equivalent of 72 pax at 200 lb each in the forward quarter of the airplane. That moved the c.g. %mac from 30.8 to 22.4, still well aft of the zero fuel weight forward c.g. limit of 16.0.



Then I put in 200000 lb of fuel, 2000 for taxi, 170000 burn. The forward c.g. limits for the taxi envelope, takeoff envelope, and landing envelope were still not exceeded.



The moral of the story thus far is that passengers take up a lot of room, but they don't weigh much relatively speaking.



However, when I loaded 350000 lb of fuel, it put the taxi c.g. at 10.9, just forward of its limit of 11.0, and the takeoff c.g. at 10.8, just forward of its limit of 11.0. I fixed the out of limits condition by putting in 50 lbs of baggage for each pax, splitting the weight between K48L and K48R, the two aftmost lower cargo ULD positions.



If you want to take a look at the test load with the 350000 lb of fuel but before adding in the bags, go to https://terryliittschwager.com/WB/index.php. Once there and after dismissing the initial message window, select the SERVER Load at the top of the list. It has a false date of 2222-01-08 to keep it at the top.



You can fix the out of limits condition by scrolling down to K48L and K48R and putting 1800 lb in each.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is only anecdotal evidence, as it was 20 years ago and I don't remember or have access to any specific numbers, but when I was testing load&balance program we have developed for 747-300, when it was almost fully loaded (with fuel etc) and perfectly balanced (middle of envelope), moving 20 pax from one very end of the plane to another end was causing it to exceed allowed envelope.
    $endgroup$
    – Artur Biesiadowski
    yesterday






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is an incredible real-world answer! Thanks man!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ArturBiesiadowski Do you happen to recall which of the envelopes it was in the middle of and which envelope was exceeded by moving the 20 pax? The only way I can think of that the movement of 20 pax would move one envelope out of limits when before the movement one envelope was in the middle would be that the zfw c.g. was next to a limit while the takeoff c.g. was in the middle.
    $endgroup$
    – Terry
    yesterday
















27












$begingroup$

As has been noted in the previous answer and comments to date, you can compensate (if you need to) for a first class loaded with pax but with the rest of the cabin empty by putting the pax bags in the rear.



Generalized statements like the above sometimes have exceptions, but I'd be surprised if that one did.



I worked a weight and balance for a 747-400F putting the equivalent of 72 pax at 200 lb each in the forward quarter of the airplane. That moved the c.g. %mac from 30.8 to 22.4, still well aft of the zero fuel weight forward c.g. limit of 16.0.



Then I put in 200000 lb of fuel, 2000 for taxi, 170000 burn. The forward c.g. limits for the taxi envelope, takeoff envelope, and landing envelope were still not exceeded.



The moral of the story thus far is that passengers take up a lot of room, but they don't weigh much relatively speaking.



However, when I loaded 350000 lb of fuel, it put the taxi c.g. at 10.9, just forward of its limit of 11.0, and the takeoff c.g. at 10.8, just forward of its limit of 11.0. I fixed the out of limits condition by putting in 50 lbs of baggage for each pax, splitting the weight between K48L and K48R, the two aftmost lower cargo ULD positions.



If you want to take a look at the test load with the 350000 lb of fuel but before adding in the bags, go to https://terryliittschwager.com/WB/index.php. Once there and after dismissing the initial message window, select the SERVER Load at the top of the list. It has a false date of 2222-01-08 to keep it at the top.



You can fix the out of limits condition by scrolling down to K48L and K48R and putting 1800 lb in each.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is only anecdotal evidence, as it was 20 years ago and I don't remember or have access to any specific numbers, but when I was testing load&balance program we have developed for 747-300, when it was almost fully loaded (with fuel etc) and perfectly balanced (middle of envelope), moving 20 pax from one very end of the plane to another end was causing it to exceed allowed envelope.
    $endgroup$
    – Artur Biesiadowski
    yesterday






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is an incredible real-world answer! Thanks man!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ArturBiesiadowski Do you happen to recall which of the envelopes it was in the middle of and which envelope was exceeded by moving the 20 pax? The only way I can think of that the movement of 20 pax would move one envelope out of limits when before the movement one envelope was in the middle would be that the zfw c.g. was next to a limit while the takeoff c.g. was in the middle.
    $endgroup$
    – Terry
    yesterday














27












27








27





$begingroup$

As has been noted in the previous answer and comments to date, you can compensate (if you need to) for a first class loaded with pax but with the rest of the cabin empty by putting the pax bags in the rear.



Generalized statements like the above sometimes have exceptions, but I'd be surprised if that one did.



I worked a weight and balance for a 747-400F putting the equivalent of 72 pax at 200 lb each in the forward quarter of the airplane. That moved the c.g. %mac from 30.8 to 22.4, still well aft of the zero fuel weight forward c.g. limit of 16.0.



Then I put in 200000 lb of fuel, 2000 for taxi, 170000 burn. The forward c.g. limits for the taxi envelope, takeoff envelope, and landing envelope were still not exceeded.



The moral of the story thus far is that passengers take up a lot of room, but they don't weigh much relatively speaking.



However, when I loaded 350000 lb of fuel, it put the taxi c.g. at 10.9, just forward of its limit of 11.0, and the takeoff c.g. at 10.8, just forward of its limit of 11.0. I fixed the out of limits condition by putting in 50 lbs of baggage for each pax, splitting the weight between K48L and K48R, the two aftmost lower cargo ULD positions.



If you want to take a look at the test load with the 350000 lb of fuel but before adding in the bags, go to https://terryliittschwager.com/WB/index.php. Once there and after dismissing the initial message window, select the SERVER Load at the top of the list. It has a false date of 2222-01-08 to keep it at the top.



You can fix the out of limits condition by scrolling down to K48L and K48R and putting 1800 lb in each.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



As has been noted in the previous answer and comments to date, you can compensate (if you need to) for a first class loaded with pax but with the rest of the cabin empty by putting the pax bags in the rear.



Generalized statements like the above sometimes have exceptions, but I'd be surprised if that one did.



I worked a weight and balance for a 747-400F putting the equivalent of 72 pax at 200 lb each in the forward quarter of the airplane. That moved the c.g. %mac from 30.8 to 22.4, still well aft of the zero fuel weight forward c.g. limit of 16.0.



Then I put in 200000 lb of fuel, 2000 for taxi, 170000 burn. The forward c.g. limits for the taxi envelope, takeoff envelope, and landing envelope were still not exceeded.



The moral of the story thus far is that passengers take up a lot of room, but they don't weigh much relatively speaking.



However, when I loaded 350000 lb of fuel, it put the taxi c.g. at 10.9, just forward of its limit of 11.0, and the takeoff c.g. at 10.8, just forward of its limit of 11.0. I fixed the out of limits condition by putting in 50 lbs of baggage for each pax, splitting the weight between K48L and K48R, the two aftmost lower cargo ULD positions.



If you want to take a look at the test load with the 350000 lb of fuel but before adding in the bags, go to https://terryliittschwager.com/WB/index.php. Once there and after dismissing the initial message window, select the SERVER Load at the top of the list. It has a false date of 2222-01-08 to keep it at the top.



You can fix the out of limits condition by scrolling down to K48L and K48R and putting 1800 lb in each.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 2 days ago









TerryTerry

33.9k590166




33.9k590166








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is only anecdotal evidence, as it was 20 years ago and I don't remember or have access to any specific numbers, but when I was testing load&balance program we have developed for 747-300, when it was almost fully loaded (with fuel etc) and perfectly balanced (middle of envelope), moving 20 pax from one very end of the plane to another end was causing it to exceed allowed envelope.
    $endgroup$
    – Artur Biesiadowski
    yesterday






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is an incredible real-world answer! Thanks man!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ArturBiesiadowski Do you happen to recall which of the envelopes it was in the middle of and which envelope was exceeded by moving the 20 pax? The only way I can think of that the movement of 20 pax would move one envelope out of limits when before the movement one envelope was in the middle would be that the zfw c.g. was next to a limit while the takeoff c.g. was in the middle.
    $endgroup$
    – Terry
    yesterday














  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is only anecdotal evidence, as it was 20 years ago and I don't remember or have access to any specific numbers, but when I was testing load&balance program we have developed for 747-300, when it was almost fully loaded (with fuel etc) and perfectly balanced (middle of envelope), moving 20 pax from one very end of the plane to another end was causing it to exceed allowed envelope.
    $endgroup$
    – Artur Biesiadowski
    yesterday






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This is an incredible real-world answer! Thanks man!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ArturBiesiadowski Do you happen to recall which of the envelopes it was in the middle of and which envelope was exceeded by moving the 20 pax? The only way I can think of that the movement of 20 pax would move one envelope out of limits when before the movement one envelope was in the middle would be that the zfw c.g. was next to a limit while the takeoff c.g. was in the middle.
    $endgroup$
    – Terry
    yesterday








3




3




$begingroup$
This is only anecdotal evidence, as it was 20 years ago and I don't remember or have access to any specific numbers, but when I was testing load&balance program we have developed for 747-300, when it was almost fully loaded (with fuel etc) and perfectly balanced (middle of envelope), moving 20 pax from one very end of the plane to another end was causing it to exceed allowed envelope.
$endgroup$
– Artur Biesiadowski
yesterday




$begingroup$
This is only anecdotal evidence, as it was 20 years ago and I don't remember or have access to any specific numbers, but when I was testing load&balance program we have developed for 747-300, when it was almost fully loaded (with fuel etc) and perfectly balanced (middle of envelope), moving 20 pax from one very end of the plane to another end was causing it to exceed allowed envelope.
$endgroup$
– Artur Biesiadowski
yesterday




3




3




$begingroup$
This is an incredible real-world answer! Thanks man!
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday




$begingroup$
This is an incredible real-world answer! Thanks man!
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday




1




1




$begingroup$
@ArturBiesiadowski Do you happen to recall which of the envelopes it was in the middle of and which envelope was exceeded by moving the 20 pax? The only way I can think of that the movement of 20 pax would move one envelope out of limits when before the movement one envelope was in the middle would be that the zfw c.g. was next to a limit while the takeoff c.g. was in the middle.
$endgroup$
– Terry
yesterday




$begingroup$
@ArturBiesiadowski Do you happen to recall which of the envelopes it was in the middle of and which envelope was exceeded by moving the 20 pax? The only way I can think of that the movement of 20 pax would move one envelope out of limits when before the movement one envelope was in the middle would be that the zfw c.g. was next to a limit while the takeoff c.g. was in the middle.
$endgroup$
– Terry
yesterday











7












$begingroup$

The passengers don't weigh enough to seriously affect the weight & balance, especially since there are usually less than 20 people in first class. I was on a Pan Am flight soon before its demise, and there were maybe 10 people on the plane. They invited everyone up to first class, after all the baggage had been loaded, so there was no compensating for the shifted passenger load.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting. My mom took Flight 800 two days after the infamous explosion and she told me the same story. The flight was almost empty and the crew was in shock and mourning the loss of coworkers. They invited everybody to first class as a result. That flight did not crash either.
    $endgroup$
    – NicVerAZ
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For smaller aircraft (at least, for an A321), it would seem that they do. In that incident, they re-balanced the airplane by moving six passengers to the back.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    A fascinating anecdote! Good one!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday
















7












$begingroup$

The passengers don't weigh enough to seriously affect the weight & balance, especially since there are usually less than 20 people in first class. I was on a Pan Am flight soon before its demise, and there were maybe 10 people on the plane. They invited everyone up to first class, after all the baggage had been loaded, so there was no compensating for the shifted passenger load.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting. My mom took Flight 800 two days after the infamous explosion and she told me the same story. The flight was almost empty and the crew was in shock and mourning the loss of coworkers. They invited everybody to first class as a result. That flight did not crash either.
    $endgroup$
    – NicVerAZ
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For smaller aircraft (at least, for an A321), it would seem that they do. In that incident, they re-balanced the airplane by moving six passengers to the back.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    A fascinating anecdote! Good one!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday














7












7








7





$begingroup$

The passengers don't weigh enough to seriously affect the weight & balance, especially since there are usually less than 20 people in first class. I was on a Pan Am flight soon before its demise, and there were maybe 10 people on the plane. They invited everyone up to first class, after all the baggage had been loaded, so there was no compensating for the shifted passenger load.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$



The passengers don't weigh enough to seriously affect the weight & balance, especially since there are usually less than 20 people in first class. I was on a Pan Am flight soon before its demise, and there were maybe 10 people on the plane. They invited everyone up to first class, after all the baggage had been loaded, so there was no compensating for the shifted passenger load.







share|improve this answer








New contributor




flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer






New contributor




flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









answered 2 days ago









flyboyflyboy

711




711




New contributor




flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






flyboy is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting. My mom took Flight 800 two days after the infamous explosion and she told me the same story. The flight was almost empty and the crew was in shock and mourning the loss of coworkers. They invited everybody to first class as a result. That flight did not crash either.
    $endgroup$
    – NicVerAZ
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For smaller aircraft (at least, for an A321), it would seem that they do. In that incident, they re-balanced the airplane by moving six passengers to the back.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    A fascinating anecdote! Good one!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Interesting. My mom took Flight 800 two days after the infamous explosion and she told me the same story. The flight was almost empty and the crew was in shock and mourning the loss of coworkers. They invited everybody to first class as a result. That flight did not crash either.
    $endgroup$
    – NicVerAZ
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    For smaller aircraft (at least, for an A321), it would seem that they do. In that incident, they re-balanced the airplane by moving six passengers to the back.
    $endgroup$
    – Mark
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    A fascinating anecdote! Good one!
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    yesterday








2




2




$begingroup$
Interesting. My mom took Flight 800 two days after the infamous explosion and she told me the same story. The flight was almost empty and the crew was in shock and mourning the loss of coworkers. They invited everybody to first class as a result. That flight did not crash either.
$endgroup$
– NicVerAZ
2 days ago




$begingroup$
Interesting. My mom took Flight 800 two days after the infamous explosion and she told me the same story. The flight was almost empty and the crew was in shock and mourning the loss of coworkers. They invited everybody to first class as a result. That flight did not crash either.
$endgroup$
– NicVerAZ
2 days ago




1




1




$begingroup$
For smaller aircraft (at least, for an A321), it would seem that they do. In that incident, they re-balanced the airplane by moving six passengers to the back.
$endgroup$
– Mark
2 days ago




$begingroup$
For smaller aircraft (at least, for an A321), it would seem that they do. In that incident, they re-balanced the airplane by moving six passengers to the back.
$endgroup$
– Mark
2 days ago












$begingroup$
A fascinating anecdote! Good one!
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday




$begingroup$
A fascinating anecdote! Good one!
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday


















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