Fourth person (in Slavey language)












9















I was reading a Wikipedia article about the Slavey (Slave) language in Canada, and it says that Slavey has first, second, third and fourth person. I've never heard about a language having a fourth person, so I was just wondering if someone here knows when is this used and how it works? Or, since it isn't very likely you're familiar with this particular language, just in general, what does a fourth person in a language denote?










share|improve this question























  • Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

    – Wilson
    6 hours ago
















9















I was reading a Wikipedia article about the Slavey (Slave) language in Canada, and it says that Slavey has first, second, third and fourth person. I've never heard about a language having a fourth person, so I was just wondering if someone here knows when is this used and how it works? Or, since it isn't very likely you're familiar with this particular language, just in general, what does a fourth person in a language denote?










share|improve this question























  • Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

    – Wilson
    6 hours ago














9












9








9


1






I was reading a Wikipedia article about the Slavey (Slave) language in Canada, and it says that Slavey has first, second, third and fourth person. I've never heard about a language having a fourth person, so I was just wondering if someone here knows when is this used and how it works? Or, since it isn't very likely you're familiar with this particular language, just in general, what does a fourth person in a language denote?










share|improve this question














I was reading a Wikipedia article about the Slavey (Slave) language in Canada, and it says that Slavey has first, second, third and fourth person. I've never heard about a language having a fourth person, so I was just wondering if someone here knows when is this used and how it works? Or, since it isn't very likely you're familiar with this particular language, just in general, what does a fourth person in a language denote?







grammar linguistic-typology american-languages






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 10 hours ago









lmclmc

326211




326211













  • Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

    – Wilson
    6 hours ago



















  • Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

    – Wilson
    6 hours ago

















Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

– Wilson
6 hours ago





Yes. Other languages with this feature include many of the indigenous languages of Canada. Even completely unrelated languages, Salish, Algonquian, Inuit. I have no idea why this feature is so strongly areal.

– Wilson
6 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















10














The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



(1)  nágoneht'u
'S/he is hitting them(human).'


The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



(2) rígodéhtá
'S/he is counting them(human).'
(The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
(3) yeyíe káidhah
4.guts
(Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
(4) yegts'é rádí
4.to 3.gives.help
'S/he helps him/her.'


References:
Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.






share|improve this answer


























  • For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

    – jlawler
    5 hours ago



















0














As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



“John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.







share|improve this answer































    -2















    Block Block quite the adventure for you







    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.




















      Your Answer








      StackExchange.ready(function() {
      var channelOptions = {
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "312"
      };
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
      createEditor();
      });
      }
      else {
      createEditor();
      }
      });

      function createEditor() {
      StackExchange.prepareEditor({
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader: {
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      },
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      });


      }
      });














      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function () {
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flinguistics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f30864%2ffourth-person-in-slavey-language%23new-answer', 'question_page');
      }
      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      10














      The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



      (1)  nágoneht'u
      'S/he is hitting them(human).'


      The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



      (2) rígodéhtá
      'S/he is counting them(human).'
      (The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
      (3) yeyíe káidhah
      4.guts
      (Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
      (4) yegts'é rádí
      4.to 3.gives.help
      'S/he helps him/her.'


      References:
      Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.






      share|improve this answer


























      • For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

        – jlawler
        5 hours ago
















      10














      The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



      (1)  nágoneht'u
      'S/he is hitting them(human).'


      The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



      (2) rígodéhtá
      'S/he is counting them(human).'
      (The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
      (3) yeyíe káidhah
      4.guts
      (Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
      (4) yegts'é rádí
      4.to 3.gives.help
      'S/he helps him/her.'


      References:
      Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.






      share|improve this answer


























      • For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

        – jlawler
        5 hours ago














      10












      10








      10







      The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



      (1)  nágoneht'u
      'S/he is hitting them(human).'


      The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



      (2) rígodéhtá
      'S/he is counting them(human).'
      (The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
      (3) yeyíe káidhah
      4.guts
      (Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
      (4) yegts'é rádí
      4.to 3.gives.help
      'S/he helps him/her.'


      References:
      Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.






      share|improve this answer















      The fourth person is a (rare) synonym for the obviative. In languages with this feature, when there are two third-person referents and one of them is less salient, the less salient one may be marked as obviative and the more salient one as proximative. According to Rice (1989), the fourth-person pronoun go- is used for objects when the subject is third person (sorry, the source doesn't provide morpheme boundaries or a morpheme-by-morpheme gloss, and I'm not familiar with American languages):



      (1)  nágoneht'u
      'S/he is hitting them(human).'


      The fourth-person pronoun ye- is used for third-person direct nonhuman objects when the subject is third person, as a fourth-person possessor (Rice doesn't go into much detail about this use), and used for third-person oblique arguments whose subjects are animate and in the third person:



      (2) rígodéhtá
      'S/he is counting them(human).'
      (The e is nasalised - no idea how to type the Americanist symbol, sorry)
      (3) yeyíe káidhah
      4.guts
      (Again, the i is nasalised, and the gloss for the second word is also missing in the main text.)
      (4) yegts'é rádí
      4.to 3.gives.help
      'S/he helps him/her.'


      References:
      Rice, K. (1989). A grammar of Slave. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 9 hours ago

























      answered 10 hours ago









      WavesWashSandsWavesWashSands

      2,2261029




      2,2261029













      • For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

        – jlawler
        5 hours ago



















      • For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

        – jlawler
        5 hours ago

















      For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

      – jlawler
      5 hours ago





      For a typical Algonkian obviative system, see Obviation, Inversion, and Topic Rank in Ojibwa, by Richard Rhodes.

      – jlawler
      5 hours ago











      0














      As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




      In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



      “John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



      Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



      In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.







      share|improve this answer




























        0














        As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




        In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



        “John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



        Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



        In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.







        share|improve this answer


























          0












          0








          0







          As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




          In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



          “John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



          Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



          In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.







          share|improve this answer













          As a layman in linguistics I found this explanation pretty illuminating:




          In English, when we have a non-SAP (speech act participants) involved in the discourse, there is the potential for ambiguity. For example, consider:



          “John was in a tizzy last night and got into a fight with Bill. He hit him so hard that he broke his jaw.”



          Here, it isn’t clear that who broke whose jaw.*



          In languages with what’s called an “obviative” system, however, there is a means of marking two different 3rd persons such that the doer and the doee of an action are clear, even when there are only pronouns in the phrase. These two types are often called 3rd person (or “proximate”) and 4th person (or “obviate”). The details of these systems vary a bit from language to language, but in the broadest strokes, the proximate 3rd person is the topic of the discourse, while the obviative 4th person is used for everything else.








          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 24 mins ago









          Andrew SavinykhAndrew Savinykh

          1064




          1064























              -2















              Block Block quite the adventure for you







              share|improve this answer








              New contributor




              Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.

























                -2















                Block Block quite the adventure for you







                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.























                  -2












                  -2








                  -2








                  Block Block quite the adventure for you







                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.











                  Block Block quite the adventure for you








                  share|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer






                  New contributor




                  Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  answered 4 hours ago









                  Mohd Zamri MahamadMohd Zamri Mahamad

                  1




                  1




                  New contributor




                  Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





                  New contributor





                  Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  Mohd Zamri Mahamad is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded




















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Linguistics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function () {
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flinguistics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f30864%2ffourth-person-in-slavey-language%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                      }
                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      "Incorrect syntax near the keyword 'ON'. (on update cascade, on delete cascade,)

                      Alcedinidae

                      Origin of the phrase “under your belt”?