Past subjunctive












0














In the following sentence (from here), is it grammatical to use subjunctive were instead of are?




As emphasized in a joke attributed to American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen (1880–1947), logic texts had to be divided in two parts: in the first part, on deductive logic, unwarranted forms of inference (deductive fallacies) are exposed




Which one of the two moods sounds more natural after had to here?










share|improve this question




















  • 3




    It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
    – Colin Fine
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:00






  • 2




    I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
    – BillJ
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:07












  • Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
    – Kaveh
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:13












  • The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
    – Jason Bassford
    2 days ago






  • 3




    @Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago


















0














In the following sentence (from here), is it grammatical to use subjunctive were instead of are?




As emphasized in a joke attributed to American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen (1880–1947), logic texts had to be divided in two parts: in the first part, on deductive logic, unwarranted forms of inference (deductive fallacies) are exposed




Which one of the two moods sounds more natural after had to here?










share|improve this question




















  • 3




    It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
    – Colin Fine
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:00






  • 2




    I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
    – BillJ
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:07












  • Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
    – Kaveh
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:13












  • The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
    – Jason Bassford
    2 days ago






  • 3




    @Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago
















0












0








0







In the following sentence (from here), is it grammatical to use subjunctive were instead of are?




As emphasized in a joke attributed to American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen (1880–1947), logic texts had to be divided in two parts: in the first part, on deductive logic, unwarranted forms of inference (deductive fallacies) are exposed




Which one of the two moods sounds more natural after had to here?










share|improve this question















In the following sentence (from here), is it grammatical to use subjunctive were instead of are?




As emphasized in a joke attributed to American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen (1880–1947), logic texts had to be divided in two parts: in the first part, on deductive logic, unwarranted forms of inference (deductive fallacies) are exposed




Which one of the two moods sounds more natural after had to here?







subjunctive-mood






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









tchrist

108k28290464




108k28290464










asked Dec 31 '18 at 18:54









Kaveh

648




648








  • 3




    It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
    – Colin Fine
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:00






  • 2




    I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
    – BillJ
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:07












  • Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
    – Kaveh
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:13












  • The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
    – Jason Bassford
    2 days ago






  • 3




    @Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago
















  • 3




    It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
    – Colin Fine
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:00






  • 2




    I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
    – BillJ
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:07












  • Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
    – Kaveh
    Dec 31 '18 at 19:13












  • The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
    – Jason Bassford
    2 days ago






  • 3




    @Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago










3




3




It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
– Colin Fine
Dec 31 '18 at 19:00




It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
– Colin Fine
Dec 31 '18 at 19:00




2




2




I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
– BillJ
Dec 31 '18 at 19:07






I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
– BillJ
Dec 31 '18 at 19:07














Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
– Kaveh
Dec 31 '18 at 19:13






Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
– Kaveh
Dec 31 '18 at 19:13














The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
– Jason Bassford
2 days ago




The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
– Jason Bassford
2 days ago




3




3




@Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago






@Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















1














Of Tense, Not Mood



The verb phrase “had to be di­vided” is not one of those whose
sub­or­di­nate clauses some­times take some­thing other than the
nor­mal in­dica­tive by some speak­ers and writ­ers and
oc­ca­sions.



Even if it were, there are no sub­or­di­nate
clauses here in your orig­i­nal.



That means what you are re­ally ask­ing about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the nor­mally
in­flected present-ver­sus-pret­erite of be, so ei­ther the
plu­ral present are or else the plu­ral pret­erite were.



Per­haps it is both­er­ing you to see the present tense used later
in a sen­tence that first uses the pret­erite. If so, please see our
su­per-Fre­quently Asked Ques­tion en­ti­tled “He didn’t know where
New Jer­sey was”
along with its an­swers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
ques­tions.



Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking



But if you still want some­thing gov­erned by what has some­times
his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem,
di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians,
but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal
mark­ing us­ing a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else by us­ing an ex­plicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...



To get some­thing fancier so that it’s “mod­ally” marked, you
would need to use a spe­cial verb like pro­posed or sug­gested
or in­sisted in the main clause so that you could mod­ally mark
some other verb in a new sub­or­di­nate clause gov­erned by the
main clause.





Ex­am­ple 1



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts should be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Ex­am­ple 2



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence should
be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
should be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.






On the Ab­sence of a Past Sub­junc­tive in Pre­sent-Day English



As you see, even if the main clause is in the pret­erite, the
sub­or­di­nate one is modally marked using just the bare in­fini­tive, never by using the
pret­erite or in the spe­cial, un­real were form for the unique
case of be.



This is an­other rea­son why call­ing some­thing “past sub­junc­tive”
in Pre­sent-Day English strains cred­i­bil­ity: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just be­cause the gov­ern­ing
clause is in the preterite.



We sim­ply use the bare in­fin­i­tive in all such sub­or­di­nate clauses, ir­re­spec­tive of the tense of the main clause.






share|improve this answer























  • I cant get the point in "what has some­times his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem, di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians, but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago












  • And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive di­achron­i­cally in­clined?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago










  • @Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago












  • @Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
    – tchrist
    2 days ago











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "97"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fenglish.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f479322%2fpast-subjunctive%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









1














Of Tense, Not Mood



The verb phrase “had to be di­vided” is not one of those whose
sub­or­di­nate clauses some­times take some­thing other than the
nor­mal in­dica­tive by some speak­ers and writ­ers and
oc­ca­sions.



Even if it were, there are no sub­or­di­nate
clauses here in your orig­i­nal.



That means what you are re­ally ask­ing about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the nor­mally
in­flected present-ver­sus-pret­erite of be, so ei­ther the
plu­ral present are or else the plu­ral pret­erite were.



Per­haps it is both­er­ing you to see the present tense used later
in a sen­tence that first uses the pret­erite. If so, please see our
su­per-Fre­quently Asked Ques­tion en­ti­tled “He didn’t know where
New Jer­sey was”
along with its an­swers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
ques­tions.



Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking



But if you still want some­thing gov­erned by what has some­times
his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem,
di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians,
but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal
mark­ing us­ing a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else by us­ing an ex­plicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...



To get some­thing fancier so that it’s “mod­ally” marked, you
would need to use a spe­cial verb like pro­posed or sug­gested
or in­sisted in the main clause so that you could mod­ally mark
some other verb in a new sub­or­di­nate clause gov­erned by the
main clause.





Ex­am­ple 1



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts should be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Ex­am­ple 2



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence should
be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
should be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.






On the Ab­sence of a Past Sub­junc­tive in Pre­sent-Day English



As you see, even if the main clause is in the pret­erite, the
sub­or­di­nate one is modally marked using just the bare in­fini­tive, never by using the
pret­erite or in the spe­cial, un­real were form for the unique
case of be.



This is an­other rea­son why call­ing some­thing “past sub­junc­tive”
in Pre­sent-Day English strains cred­i­bil­ity: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just be­cause the gov­ern­ing
clause is in the preterite.



We sim­ply use the bare in­fin­i­tive in all such sub­or­di­nate clauses, ir­re­spec­tive of the tense of the main clause.






share|improve this answer























  • I cant get the point in "what has some­times his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem, di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians, but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago












  • And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive di­achron­i­cally in­clined?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago










  • @Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago












  • @Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
    – tchrist
    2 days ago
















1














Of Tense, Not Mood



The verb phrase “had to be di­vided” is not one of those whose
sub­or­di­nate clauses some­times take some­thing other than the
nor­mal in­dica­tive by some speak­ers and writ­ers and
oc­ca­sions.



Even if it were, there are no sub­or­di­nate
clauses here in your orig­i­nal.



That means what you are re­ally ask­ing about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the nor­mally
in­flected present-ver­sus-pret­erite of be, so ei­ther the
plu­ral present are or else the plu­ral pret­erite were.



Per­haps it is both­er­ing you to see the present tense used later
in a sen­tence that first uses the pret­erite. If so, please see our
su­per-Fre­quently Asked Ques­tion en­ti­tled “He didn’t know where
New Jer­sey was”
along with its an­swers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
ques­tions.



Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking



But if you still want some­thing gov­erned by what has some­times
his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem,
di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians,
but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal
mark­ing us­ing a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else by us­ing an ex­plicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...



To get some­thing fancier so that it’s “mod­ally” marked, you
would need to use a spe­cial verb like pro­posed or sug­gested
or in­sisted in the main clause so that you could mod­ally mark
some other verb in a new sub­or­di­nate clause gov­erned by the
main clause.





Ex­am­ple 1



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts should be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Ex­am­ple 2



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence should
be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
should be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.






On the Ab­sence of a Past Sub­junc­tive in Pre­sent-Day English



As you see, even if the main clause is in the pret­erite, the
sub­or­di­nate one is modally marked using just the bare in­fini­tive, never by using the
pret­erite or in the spe­cial, un­real were form for the unique
case of be.



This is an­other rea­son why call­ing some­thing “past sub­junc­tive”
in Pre­sent-Day English strains cred­i­bil­ity: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just be­cause the gov­ern­ing
clause is in the preterite.



We sim­ply use the bare in­fin­i­tive in all such sub­or­di­nate clauses, ir­re­spec­tive of the tense of the main clause.






share|improve this answer























  • I cant get the point in "what has some­times his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem, di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians, but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago












  • And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive di­achron­i­cally in­clined?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago










  • @Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago












  • @Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
    – tchrist
    2 days ago














1












1








1






Of Tense, Not Mood



The verb phrase “had to be di­vided” is not one of those whose
sub­or­di­nate clauses some­times take some­thing other than the
nor­mal in­dica­tive by some speak­ers and writ­ers and
oc­ca­sions.



Even if it were, there are no sub­or­di­nate
clauses here in your orig­i­nal.



That means what you are re­ally ask­ing about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the nor­mally
in­flected present-ver­sus-pret­erite of be, so ei­ther the
plu­ral present are or else the plu­ral pret­erite were.



Per­haps it is both­er­ing you to see the present tense used later
in a sen­tence that first uses the pret­erite. If so, please see our
su­per-Fre­quently Asked Ques­tion en­ti­tled “He didn’t know where
New Jer­sey was”
along with its an­swers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
ques­tions.



Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking



But if you still want some­thing gov­erned by what has some­times
his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem,
di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians,
but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal
mark­ing us­ing a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else by us­ing an ex­plicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...



To get some­thing fancier so that it’s “mod­ally” marked, you
would need to use a spe­cial verb like pro­posed or sug­gested
or in­sisted in the main clause so that you could mod­ally mark
some other verb in a new sub­or­di­nate clause gov­erned by the
main clause.





Ex­am­ple 1



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts should be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Ex­am­ple 2



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence should
be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
should be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.






On the Ab­sence of a Past Sub­junc­tive in Pre­sent-Day English



As you see, even if the main clause is in the pret­erite, the
sub­or­di­nate one is modally marked using just the bare in­fini­tive, never by using the
pret­erite or in the spe­cial, un­real were form for the unique
case of be.



This is an­other rea­son why call­ing some­thing “past sub­junc­tive”
in Pre­sent-Day English strains cred­i­bil­ity: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just be­cause the gov­ern­ing
clause is in the preterite.



We sim­ply use the bare in­fin­i­tive in all such sub­or­di­nate clauses, ir­re­spec­tive of the tense of the main clause.






share|improve this answer














Of Tense, Not Mood



The verb phrase “had to be di­vided” is not one of those whose
sub­or­di­nate clauses some­times take some­thing other than the
nor­mal in­dica­tive by some speak­ers and writ­ers and
oc­ca­sions.



Even if it were, there are no sub­or­di­nate
clauses here in your orig­i­nal.



That means what you are re­ally ask­ing about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the nor­mally
in­flected present-ver­sus-pret­erite of be, so ei­ther the
plu­ral present are or else the plu­ral pret­erite were.



Per­haps it is both­er­ing you to see the present tense used later
in a sen­tence that first uses the pret­erite. If so, please see our
su­per-Fre­quently Asked Ques­tion en­ti­tled “He didn’t know where
New Jer­sey was”
along with its an­swers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
ques­tions.



Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking



But if you still want some­thing gov­erned by what has some­times
his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem,
di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians,
but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal
mark­ing us­ing a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else by us­ing an ex­plicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...



To get some­thing fancier so that it’s “mod­ally” marked, you
would need to use a spe­cial verb like pro­posed or sug­gested
or in­sisted in the main clause so that you could mod­ally mark
some other verb in a new sub­or­di­nate clause gov­erned by the
main clause.





Ex­am­ple 1



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that logic texts should be di­vided in two parts:




  1. the de­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are ex­posed

  2. the in­duc­tive part where un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence are en­dorsed




Ex­am­ple 2



Either by us­ing the bare-in­fi­ni­tive mo­dal­ity:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.




Or by pre­fix­ing that bare-in­fi­ni­tive with an ac­tual modal verb:




As a joke, Amer­i­can phi­los­o­pher Mor­ris Raph­ael Co­hen
pro­posed that un­war­ranted forms of in­fer­ence should
be
ex­posed
in the first part on de­duc­tion, and that they
should be en­dorsed in the sec­ond part on in­duc­tion.






On the Ab­sence of a Past Sub­junc­tive in Pre­sent-Day English



As you see, even if the main clause is in the pret­erite, the
sub­or­di­nate one is modally marked using just the bare in­fini­tive, never by using the
pret­erite or in the spe­cial, un­real were form for the unique
case of be.



This is an­other rea­son why call­ing some­thing “past sub­junc­tive”
in Pre­sent-Day English strains cred­i­bil­ity: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just be­cause the gov­ern­ing
clause is in the preterite.



We sim­ply use the bare in­fin­i­tive in all such sub­or­di­nate clauses, ir­re­spec­tive of the tense of the main clause.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago

























answered 2 days ago









tchrist

108k28290464




108k28290464












  • I cant get the point in "what has some­times his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem, di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians, but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago












  • And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive di­achron­i­cally in­clined?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago










  • @Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago












  • @Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
    – tchrist
    2 days ago


















  • I cant get the point in "what has some­times his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem, di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians, but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago












  • And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive di­achron­i­cally in­clined?
    – Kaveh
    2 days ago










  • @Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
    – Peter Shor
    2 days ago












  • @Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
    – tchrist
    2 days ago
















I cant get the point in "what has some­times his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem, di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians, but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago






I cant get the point in "what has some­times his­tor­i­cally been called the “sub­junc­tive” by the more, ahem, di­achron­i­cally in­clined mor­phol­o­gists and syn­tac­ti­cians, but viewed syn­chron­i­cally is ac­tu­ally just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare in­fini­tive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago














And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive di­achron­i­cally in­clined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago




And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive di­achron­i­cally in­clined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago












@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago






@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago














@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist
2 days ago




@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist
2 days ago


















draft saved

draft discarded




















































Thanks for contributing an answer to English Language & Usage Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fenglish.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f479322%2fpast-subjunctive%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

"Incorrect syntax near the keyword 'ON'. (on update cascade, on delete cascade,)

Alcedinidae

Origin of the phrase “under your belt”?