Past subjunctive
In the following sentence (from here), is it grammatical to use subjunctive were instead of are?
As emphasized in a joke attributed to American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen (1880–1947), logic texts had to be divided in two parts: in the first part, on deductive logic, unwarranted forms of inference (deductive fallacies) are exposed
Which one of the two moods sounds more natural after had to here?
subjunctive-mood
|
show 7 more comments
In the following sentence (from here), is it grammatical to use subjunctive were instead of are?
As emphasized in a joke attributed to American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen (1880–1947), logic texts had to be divided in two parts: in the first part, on deductive logic, unwarranted forms of inference (deductive fallacies) are exposed
Which one of the two moods sounds more natural after had to here?
subjunctive-mood
3
It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
– Colin Fine
Dec 31 '18 at 19:00
2
I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
– BillJ
Dec 31 '18 at 19:07
Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
– Kaveh
Dec 31 '18 at 19:13
The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
– Jason Bassford
2 days ago
3
@Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
|
show 7 more comments
In the following sentence (from here), is it grammatical to use subjunctive were instead of are?
As emphasized in a joke attributed to American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen (1880–1947), logic texts had to be divided in two parts: in the first part, on deductive logic, unwarranted forms of inference (deductive fallacies) are exposed
Which one of the two moods sounds more natural after had to here?
subjunctive-mood
In the following sentence (from here), is it grammatical to use subjunctive were instead of are?
As emphasized in a joke attributed to American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen (1880–1947), logic texts had to be divided in two parts: in the first part, on deductive logic, unwarranted forms of inference (deductive fallacies) are exposed
Which one of the two moods sounds more natural after had to here?
subjunctive-mood
subjunctive-mood
edited 2 days ago
tchrist♦
108k28290464
108k28290464
asked Dec 31 '18 at 18:54
Kaveh
648
648
3
It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
– Colin Fine
Dec 31 '18 at 19:00
2
I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
– BillJ
Dec 31 '18 at 19:07
Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
– Kaveh
Dec 31 '18 at 19:13
The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
– Jason Bassford
2 days ago
3
@Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
|
show 7 more comments
3
It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
– Colin Fine
Dec 31 '18 at 19:00
2
I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
– BillJ
Dec 31 '18 at 19:07
Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
– Kaveh
Dec 31 '18 at 19:13
The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
– Jason Bassford
2 days ago
3
@Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
3
3
It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
– Colin Fine
Dec 31 '18 at 19:00
It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
– Colin Fine
Dec 31 '18 at 19:00
2
2
I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
– BillJ
Dec 31 '18 at 19:07
I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
– BillJ
Dec 31 '18 at 19:07
Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
– Kaveh
Dec 31 '18 at 19:13
Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
– Kaveh
Dec 31 '18 at 19:13
The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
– Jason Bassford
2 days ago
The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
– Jason Bassford
2 days ago
3
3
@Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
|
show 7 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
Of Tense, Not Mood
The verb phrase “had to be divided” is not one of those whose
subordinate clauses sometimes take something other than the
normal indicative by some speakers and writers and
occasions.
Even if it were, there are no subordinate
clauses here in your original.
That means what you are really asking about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the normally
inflected present-versus-preterite of be, so either the
plural present are or else the plural preterite were.
Perhaps it is bothering you to see the present tense used later
in a sentence that first uses the preterite. If so, please see our
super-Frequently Asked Question entitled “He didn’t know where
New Jersey was”
along with its answers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
questions.
Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking
But if you still want something governed by what has sometimes
historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem,
diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians,
but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal
marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else by using an explicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...
To get something fancier so that it’s “modally” marked, you
would need to use a special verb like proposed or suggested
or insisted in the main clause so that you could modally mark
some other verb in a new subordinate clause governed by the
main clause.
Example 1
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts should be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Example 2
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference be
exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
be endorsed in the second part on induction.
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference should
be exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
should be endorsed in the second part on induction.
On the Absence of a Past Subjunctive in Present-Day English
As you see, even if the main clause is in the preterite, the
subordinate one is modally marked using just the bare infinitive, never by using the
preterite or in the special, unreal were form for the unique
case of be.
This is another reason why calling something “past subjunctive”
in Present-Day English strains credibility: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just because the governing
clause is in the preterite.
We simply use the bare infinitive in all such subordinate clauses, irrespective of the tense of the main clause.
I cant get the point in "what has sometimes historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem, diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians, but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive diachronically inclined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist♦
2 days ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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Of Tense, Not Mood
The verb phrase “had to be divided” is not one of those whose
subordinate clauses sometimes take something other than the
normal indicative by some speakers and writers and
occasions.
Even if it were, there are no subordinate
clauses here in your original.
That means what you are really asking about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the normally
inflected present-versus-preterite of be, so either the
plural present are or else the plural preterite were.
Perhaps it is bothering you to see the present tense used later
in a sentence that first uses the preterite. If so, please see our
super-Frequently Asked Question entitled “He didn’t know where
New Jersey was”
along with its answers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
questions.
Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking
But if you still want something governed by what has sometimes
historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem,
diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians,
but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal
marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else by using an explicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...
To get something fancier so that it’s “modally” marked, you
would need to use a special verb like proposed or suggested
or insisted in the main clause so that you could modally mark
some other verb in a new subordinate clause governed by the
main clause.
Example 1
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts should be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Example 2
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference be
exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
be endorsed in the second part on induction.
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference should
be exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
should be endorsed in the second part on induction.
On the Absence of a Past Subjunctive in Present-Day English
As you see, even if the main clause is in the preterite, the
subordinate one is modally marked using just the bare infinitive, never by using the
preterite or in the special, unreal were form for the unique
case of be.
This is another reason why calling something “past subjunctive”
in Present-Day English strains credibility: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just because the governing
clause is in the preterite.
We simply use the bare infinitive in all such subordinate clauses, irrespective of the tense of the main clause.
I cant get the point in "what has sometimes historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem, diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians, but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive diachronically inclined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist♦
2 days ago
add a comment |
Of Tense, Not Mood
The verb phrase “had to be divided” is not one of those whose
subordinate clauses sometimes take something other than the
normal indicative by some speakers and writers and
occasions.
Even if it were, there are no subordinate
clauses here in your original.
That means what you are really asking about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the normally
inflected present-versus-preterite of be, so either the
plural present are or else the plural preterite were.
Perhaps it is bothering you to see the present tense used later
in a sentence that first uses the preterite. If so, please see our
super-Frequently Asked Question entitled “He didn’t know where
New Jersey was”
along with its answers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
questions.
Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking
But if you still want something governed by what has sometimes
historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem,
diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians,
but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal
marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else by using an explicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...
To get something fancier so that it’s “modally” marked, you
would need to use a special verb like proposed or suggested
or insisted in the main clause so that you could modally mark
some other verb in a new subordinate clause governed by the
main clause.
Example 1
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts should be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Example 2
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference be
exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
be endorsed in the second part on induction.
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference should
be exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
should be endorsed in the second part on induction.
On the Absence of a Past Subjunctive in Present-Day English
As you see, even if the main clause is in the preterite, the
subordinate one is modally marked using just the bare infinitive, never by using the
preterite or in the special, unreal were form for the unique
case of be.
This is another reason why calling something “past subjunctive”
in Present-Day English strains credibility: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just because the governing
clause is in the preterite.
We simply use the bare infinitive in all such subordinate clauses, irrespective of the tense of the main clause.
I cant get the point in "what has sometimes historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem, diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians, but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive diachronically inclined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist♦
2 days ago
add a comment |
Of Tense, Not Mood
The verb phrase “had to be divided” is not one of those whose
subordinate clauses sometimes take something other than the
normal indicative by some speakers and writers and
occasions.
Even if it were, there are no subordinate
clauses here in your original.
That means what you are really asking about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the normally
inflected present-versus-preterite of be, so either the
plural present are or else the plural preterite were.
Perhaps it is bothering you to see the present tense used later
in a sentence that first uses the preterite. If so, please see our
super-Frequently Asked Question entitled “He didn’t know where
New Jersey was”
along with its answers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
questions.
Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking
But if you still want something governed by what has sometimes
historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem,
diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians,
but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal
marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else by using an explicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...
To get something fancier so that it’s “modally” marked, you
would need to use a special verb like proposed or suggested
or insisted in the main clause so that you could modally mark
some other verb in a new subordinate clause governed by the
main clause.
Example 1
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts should be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Example 2
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference be
exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
be endorsed in the second part on induction.
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference should
be exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
should be endorsed in the second part on induction.
On the Absence of a Past Subjunctive in Present-Day English
As you see, even if the main clause is in the preterite, the
subordinate one is modally marked using just the bare infinitive, never by using the
preterite or in the special, unreal were form for the unique
case of be.
This is another reason why calling something “past subjunctive”
in Present-Day English strains credibility: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just because the governing
clause is in the preterite.
We simply use the bare infinitive in all such subordinate clauses, irrespective of the tense of the main clause.
Of Tense, Not Mood
The verb phrase “had to be divided” is not one of those whose
subordinate clauses sometimes take something other than the
normal indicative by some speakers and writers and
occasions.
Even if it were, there are no subordinate
clauses here in your original.
That means what you are really asking about here is not mood but
tense; that is, whether the tense ought to use the normally
inflected present-versus-preterite of be, so either the
plural present are or else the plural preterite were.
Perhaps it is bothering you to see the present tense used later
in a sentence that first uses the preterite. If so, please see our
super-Frequently Asked Question entitled “He didn’t know where
New Jersey was”
along with its answers and those of its nearly four dozen linked
questions.
Of Moods and Modes, and Their Marking
But if you still want something governed by what has sometimes
historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem,
diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians,
but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal
marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else by using an explicit
one like should or must, then here’s what you have to do...
To get something fancier so that it’s “modally” marked, you
would need to use a special verb like proposed or suggested
or insisted in the main clause so that you could modally mark
some other verb in a new subordinate clause governed by the
main clause.
Example 1
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that logic texts should be divided in two parts:
- the deductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are exposed
- the inductive part where unwarranted forms of inference are endorsed
Example 2
Either by using the bare-infinitive modality:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference be
exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
be endorsed in the second part on induction.
Or by prefixing that bare-infinitive with an actual modal verb:
As a joke, American philosopher Morris Raphael Cohen
proposed that unwarranted forms of inference should
be exposed in the first part on deduction, and that they
should be endorsed in the second part on induction.
On the Absence of a Past Subjunctive in Present-Day English
As you see, even if the main clause is in the preterite, the
subordinate one is modally marked using just the bare infinitive, never by using the
preterite or in the special, unreal were form for the unique
case of be.
This is another reason why calling something “past subjunctive”
in Present-Day English strains credibility: we do not change
be to were, nor spend to spent, just because the governing
clause is in the preterite.
We simply use the bare infinitive in all such subordinate clauses, irrespective of the tense of the main clause.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
tchrist♦
108k28290464
108k28290464
I cant get the point in "what has sometimes historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem, diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians, but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive diachronically inclined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist♦
2 days ago
add a comment |
I cant get the point in "what has sometimes historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem, diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians, but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive diachronically inclined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist♦
2 days ago
I cant get the point in "what has sometimes historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem, diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians, but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
I cant get the point in "what has sometimes historically been called the “subjunctive” by the more, ahem, diachronically inclined morphologists and syntacticians, but viewed synchronically is actually just a form of modal marking using a “zero”-modal (bare infinitive) or else". It seems you are telling about two views to the same thing, but the bare infinitive, AFAI, is different from subjunctive (be vs are). Isn't it?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive diachronically inclined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
And why you are calling those who speak of subjunctive diachronically inclined?
– Kaveh
2 days ago
@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@Kaveh: In present tense, the infinitive is the same as the bare subjunctive, and has been since Shakespeare. For example, Shakespeare wrote If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved, where be is the present subjunctive.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago
@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist♦
2 days ago
@Kaveh Please see Synchrony and diachrony on Wikipedia.
– tchrist♦
2 days ago
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3
It could be the simple past "were". I cannot see any reason why the subjunctive might be relevant.
– Colin Fine
Dec 31 '18 at 19:00
2
I can't see the relevance here of the ill-named past subjunctive to your example. As Colin Fine says, "were" would be a preterite (simple past) verb-form.
– BillJ
Dec 31 '18 at 19:07
Please search the following sentence in English subjunctive Marjorie had insisted that Barbara spent the morning resting in her stateroom. It seems to me that for the same reason a subjunctive verb can also be used here. Am I wrong in this respect?
– Kaveh
Dec 31 '18 at 19:13
The fact that were is spelled the same in both the simple past and the subjunctive is irrelevant. If used in this sentence, it would be the simple past—as per the other comments. The surrounding text doesn't warrant an interpretation of the subjunctive.
– Jason Bassford
2 days ago
3
@Kaveh: You're misinterpreting the Wikipedia article. The sentence Marjorie had insisted ... is an example of British authors using the past indicative rather than the present subjunctive. In contemporary English, Americans otten use the subjunctive after insisted, but I don't believe anybody would use any flavor of the subjunctive in your sentence.
– Peter Shor
2 days ago