Matrix elements of the free particle Hamiltonian











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The Hamiltonian of a free particle is $hat H = frac{hat p^2}{2m}$, in position representation
$$ hat H = -frac{hbar^2}{2m} Delta ;. $$
Now consider two wave functions $psi_1(x)$ and $psi_2(x)$ which are smooth enough (say $C^infty$), have compact support, and their support doesn't intersect. Obviously, $langle psi_1 | psi_2 rangle = 0$.



Is the matrix element $ langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle $ zero?




  • On the one hand, the answer should be "obviously yes", since
    $$ langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = -frac{hbar^2}{2m} int overline{psi_1(x)}, psi^{primeprime}_2(x) ,dx = 0 ;. $$


  • On the other hand, it is common knowledge that wave functions spread, and after $dt$ of time their support will be infinite.
    Therefore I would expect*
    $$ langle psi_1 | psi_2(dt) rangle = langle psi_1 | psi_2 rangle -frac i hbar langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle, dt + mathcal O(dt^2) neq 0 . $$





* To keep it simple, I am only evolving one of the wave functions in time. Otherwise the first order in $dt$ would be zero, but I could ask the same question about the matrix element of $hat H^2$ appearing at the second order.










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  • I don't know if this is relevant, but I have a question. Is it possible for two $C^infty$ functions to have disjoint support?
    – garyp
    2 days ago












  • Just for clarity, are $psi_{1}(x)$ and $psi_{2}(x)$ arbitrary wavefunctions or are they specifically energy eigenfunctions? I assume you mean that they are arbitrary solutions to the free-particle Schrodinger equation
    – N. Steinle
    2 days ago










  • @garyp yes: $e^{-1/x^2} x>0$ and $e^{1/(-x)^2} x<0$
    – Bruce Greetham
    2 days ago












  • @garyp en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_function
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago






  • 1




    @N.Steinle They are arbitrary wave functions. In particular, they are not energy eigenfunctions -- those have infinite support.
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago















up vote
12
down vote

favorite
5












The Hamiltonian of a free particle is $hat H = frac{hat p^2}{2m}$, in position representation
$$ hat H = -frac{hbar^2}{2m} Delta ;. $$
Now consider two wave functions $psi_1(x)$ and $psi_2(x)$ which are smooth enough (say $C^infty$), have compact support, and their support doesn't intersect. Obviously, $langle psi_1 | psi_2 rangle = 0$.



Is the matrix element $ langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle $ zero?




  • On the one hand, the answer should be "obviously yes", since
    $$ langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = -frac{hbar^2}{2m} int overline{psi_1(x)}, psi^{primeprime}_2(x) ,dx = 0 ;. $$


  • On the other hand, it is common knowledge that wave functions spread, and after $dt$ of time their support will be infinite.
    Therefore I would expect*
    $$ langle psi_1 | psi_2(dt) rangle = langle psi_1 | psi_2 rangle -frac i hbar langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle, dt + mathcal O(dt^2) neq 0 . $$





* To keep it simple, I am only evolving one of the wave functions in time. Otherwise the first order in $dt$ would be zero, but I could ask the same question about the matrix element of $hat H^2$ appearing at the second order.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • I don't know if this is relevant, but I have a question. Is it possible for two $C^infty$ functions to have disjoint support?
    – garyp
    2 days ago












  • Just for clarity, are $psi_{1}(x)$ and $psi_{2}(x)$ arbitrary wavefunctions or are they specifically energy eigenfunctions? I assume you mean that they are arbitrary solutions to the free-particle Schrodinger equation
    – N. Steinle
    2 days ago










  • @garyp yes: $e^{-1/x^2} x>0$ and $e^{1/(-x)^2} x<0$
    – Bruce Greetham
    2 days ago












  • @garyp en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_function
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago






  • 1




    @N.Steinle They are arbitrary wave functions. In particular, they are not energy eigenfunctions -- those have infinite support.
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago













up vote
12
down vote

favorite
5









up vote
12
down vote

favorite
5






5





The Hamiltonian of a free particle is $hat H = frac{hat p^2}{2m}$, in position representation
$$ hat H = -frac{hbar^2}{2m} Delta ;. $$
Now consider two wave functions $psi_1(x)$ and $psi_2(x)$ which are smooth enough (say $C^infty$), have compact support, and their support doesn't intersect. Obviously, $langle psi_1 | psi_2 rangle = 0$.



Is the matrix element $ langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle $ zero?




  • On the one hand, the answer should be "obviously yes", since
    $$ langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = -frac{hbar^2}{2m} int overline{psi_1(x)}, psi^{primeprime}_2(x) ,dx = 0 ;. $$


  • On the other hand, it is common knowledge that wave functions spread, and after $dt$ of time their support will be infinite.
    Therefore I would expect*
    $$ langle psi_1 | psi_2(dt) rangle = langle psi_1 | psi_2 rangle -frac i hbar langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle, dt + mathcal O(dt^2) neq 0 . $$





* To keep it simple, I am only evolving one of the wave functions in time. Otherwise the first order in $dt$ would be zero, but I could ask the same question about the matrix element of $hat H^2$ appearing at the second order.










share|cite|improve this question















The Hamiltonian of a free particle is $hat H = frac{hat p^2}{2m}$, in position representation
$$ hat H = -frac{hbar^2}{2m} Delta ;. $$
Now consider two wave functions $psi_1(x)$ and $psi_2(x)$ which are smooth enough (say $C^infty$), have compact support, and their support doesn't intersect. Obviously, $langle psi_1 | psi_2 rangle = 0$.



Is the matrix element $ langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle $ zero?




  • On the one hand, the answer should be "obviously yes", since
    $$ langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = -frac{hbar^2}{2m} int overline{psi_1(x)}, psi^{primeprime}_2(x) ,dx = 0 ;. $$


  • On the other hand, it is common knowledge that wave functions spread, and after $dt$ of time their support will be infinite.
    Therefore I would expect*
    $$ langle psi_1 | psi_2(dt) rangle = langle psi_1 | psi_2 rangle -frac i hbar langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle, dt + mathcal O(dt^2) neq 0 . $$





* To keep it simple, I am only evolving one of the wave functions in time. Otherwise the first order in $dt$ would be zero, but I could ask the same question about the matrix element of $hat H^2$ appearing at the second order.







quantum-mechanics hilbert-space wavefunction time-evolution matrix-elements






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share|cite|improve this question













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share|cite|improve this question








edited 2 days ago

























asked 2 days ago









Noiralef

3,631927




3,631927












  • I don't know if this is relevant, but I have a question. Is it possible for two $C^infty$ functions to have disjoint support?
    – garyp
    2 days ago












  • Just for clarity, are $psi_{1}(x)$ and $psi_{2}(x)$ arbitrary wavefunctions or are they specifically energy eigenfunctions? I assume you mean that they are arbitrary solutions to the free-particle Schrodinger equation
    – N. Steinle
    2 days ago










  • @garyp yes: $e^{-1/x^2} x>0$ and $e^{1/(-x)^2} x<0$
    – Bruce Greetham
    2 days ago












  • @garyp en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_function
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago






  • 1




    @N.Steinle They are arbitrary wave functions. In particular, they are not energy eigenfunctions -- those have infinite support.
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago


















  • I don't know if this is relevant, but I have a question. Is it possible for two $C^infty$ functions to have disjoint support?
    – garyp
    2 days ago












  • Just for clarity, are $psi_{1}(x)$ and $psi_{2}(x)$ arbitrary wavefunctions or are they specifically energy eigenfunctions? I assume you mean that they are arbitrary solutions to the free-particle Schrodinger equation
    – N. Steinle
    2 days ago










  • @garyp yes: $e^{-1/x^2} x>0$ and $e^{1/(-x)^2} x<0$
    – Bruce Greetham
    2 days ago












  • @garyp en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_function
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago






  • 1




    @N.Steinle They are arbitrary wave functions. In particular, they are not energy eigenfunctions -- those have infinite support.
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago
















I don't know if this is relevant, but I have a question. Is it possible for two $C^infty$ functions to have disjoint support?
– garyp
2 days ago






I don't know if this is relevant, but I have a question. Is it possible for two $C^infty$ functions to have disjoint support?
– garyp
2 days ago














Just for clarity, are $psi_{1}(x)$ and $psi_{2}(x)$ arbitrary wavefunctions or are they specifically energy eigenfunctions? I assume you mean that they are arbitrary solutions to the free-particle Schrodinger equation
– N. Steinle
2 days ago




Just for clarity, are $psi_{1}(x)$ and $psi_{2}(x)$ arbitrary wavefunctions or are they specifically energy eigenfunctions? I assume you mean that they are arbitrary solutions to the free-particle Schrodinger equation
– N. Steinle
2 days ago












@garyp yes: $e^{-1/x^2} x>0$ and $e^{1/(-x)^2} x<0$
– Bruce Greetham
2 days ago






@garyp yes: $e^{-1/x^2} x>0$ and $e^{1/(-x)^2} x<0$
– Bruce Greetham
2 days ago














@garyp en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_function
– Noiralef
2 days ago




@garyp en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_function
– Noiralef
2 days ago




1




1




@N.Steinle They are arbitrary wave functions. In particular, they are not energy eigenfunctions -- those have infinite support.
– Noiralef
2 days ago




@N.Steinle They are arbitrary wave functions. In particular, they are not energy eigenfunctions -- those have infinite support.
– Noiralef
2 days ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
5
down vote



accepted










This is an interesting question. It is reminicent of the popular (but fallacious) "proof" that
$$
exp{iahat p}psi(x) equiv exp{apartial_x}psi(x)=psi(x+a)
$$

that claims that applying the exponential of the derivative operator to $psi$ gives the Taylor expanion of $psi(x+a)$ about $x$. The problem is that if $psi(x)$ is $C^infty$ and of compact support, then each term of the Taylor series is always exactly zero outside the support of $psi(x)$ and so $psi(x)$ can never become non-zero outside its original region of support. Of course $C^infty$ functions of compact support do not have Taylor series that converge to the function, and the resolution of this paradox is to realise that the appropriate definition of $exp{ia hat p}$ comes from its spectral decomposition. In other words we should Fourier expand $psi(x)= langle x|psirangle$ to get $psi(p)equiv langle p|psirangle $, multiply by $e^{iap}$ and then invert the Fourier expansion. Then we obtain $psi(x+a)$.



The same situation applies here. The literal definition of $H$ as a second derivative operator is not sufficiently precise. We must choose a domain for $hat H$ such that it is truly self-adjoint and so possesses a complete set of eigenfunctions. The action of $hat H$ on any function in its domain is then defined in terms of the eigenfunction expansion.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thanks for the answer! I've never seen that fallacious "proof", but you are right, this seems to be very much related. Just to clarify: Are you saying that a function with compact support is not in the domain of $hat H$, or that it is in the domain but the action of $hat H$ can not be calculated as a defivative?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago










  • @Noiralef It's the "proof" that is usually trotted out in most quantum books/ courses for physicists. My colleagues are always surprised when I tell them that it is fallacious. For your second point. Yes the compactly supported $psi$ is in any reasonable definition of the domain of $hat H$, but I'm pretty sure that the action of the unitary evolution operator $exp{-it hat H}$ (this is what you really want) on it is not given by the derivatives.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago










  • 1. I should have said: I have seen that "proof" many times, and I have probably shown it to students myself, but I had never seen it pointed out as fallacious. 2. Okay, thanks! But sorry - I am still unsure what the answer to the original question is. Would such a matrix element (of $hat H$) be zero?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago












  • @Noiralef I suspect that the matrix element is zero. It's just that the power series in $dt$ for $<psi|psi(t)>$ that you derive will not converge to $<psi|psi(t)>$.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago












  • The "fallacious proof" applies to $C_{0}^{infty}$ only? I believe it is correct for Schwartz test functions of $mathcal{S}(mathbb{R})$.
    – DanielC
    yesterday


















up vote
2
down vote













The core of the issue is that, for unbounded operators $hat A$, the operator exponential is not defined in terms of the power series $exp(hat A) = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!}$. And it can not be defined that way, as we don't have a guarantee that this series converges.
Instead, we use the spectral theorem to define
$$ exp(hat A) = int mathrm e^a, |a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da ;, tag{1} $$
where $|a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da$ is the physicist's notation for the projection-valued measure $mathrm dP_a$.
Crucially, this is the definition used in Stone's theorem on strongly continuous unitary groups.



This means in particular that the time evolution of $|psi_2rangle$ is not $|psi_2(mathrm dt)rangle = |psi_2rangle - frac{mathrm i, mathrm dt}{hbar}hat H |psi_2rangle + mathcal O(mathrm dt^2)$ as suggested in the question.
Hence it is not a contradiction that
$$langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = 0 ;. $$



Side note: As explained in [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.3], definition (1) agrees with the power series for the case of bounded $hat A$.
Further, for all $|psirangle$ that can be written as $|psirangle = int_{-M}^M |a rangle!langle a|varphirangle , mathrm da$ for some $M in mathbb R$ and some $|varphirangle$, the power series $sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!} |psirangle$ converges to $exp(hat A)|psirangle$ [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.5].





As mentioned in the answer by mike stone, there is a simpler example demonstrating the same problem.
Let $D(alpha) = exp(mathrm i alpha hat p)$ be the translation operator ($hbar=1$).
Using definition (1), we immediately see that
$$ langle x | D(alpha) | psi rangle = int mathrm e^{mathrm i alpha p} langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp = langle x+alpha | psi rangle ;. $$
If $psi$ has compact support, this is obviously different from
$$ sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ langle x | (mathrm i alpha hat p)^n | psi rangle }{n!} = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ (alpha partial_x)^n }{n!} langle x | psi rangle = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{(mathrm ialpha)^n}{n!} int p^n langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp ;. $$
The latter expression is only correct if we can exchange the order of the integral and the series, as explained also in [Holstein, Swift (1972)].






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  • 1




    I already accepted the answer given by mike stone, but it made me take out my copy of Reed&Simon again and read a bit more. Posting my understanding here in case more people are curious.
    – Noiralef
    yesterday










  • Can you give the full reference of Holstein & Swift?
    – DanielC
    yesterday






  • 1




    @DanielC doi.org/10.1119/1.1986678
    – Noiralef
    yesterday











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2 Answers
2






active

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votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
5
down vote



accepted










This is an interesting question. It is reminicent of the popular (but fallacious) "proof" that
$$
exp{iahat p}psi(x) equiv exp{apartial_x}psi(x)=psi(x+a)
$$

that claims that applying the exponential of the derivative operator to $psi$ gives the Taylor expanion of $psi(x+a)$ about $x$. The problem is that if $psi(x)$ is $C^infty$ and of compact support, then each term of the Taylor series is always exactly zero outside the support of $psi(x)$ and so $psi(x)$ can never become non-zero outside its original region of support. Of course $C^infty$ functions of compact support do not have Taylor series that converge to the function, and the resolution of this paradox is to realise that the appropriate definition of $exp{ia hat p}$ comes from its spectral decomposition. In other words we should Fourier expand $psi(x)= langle x|psirangle$ to get $psi(p)equiv langle p|psirangle $, multiply by $e^{iap}$ and then invert the Fourier expansion. Then we obtain $psi(x+a)$.



The same situation applies here. The literal definition of $H$ as a second derivative operator is not sufficiently precise. We must choose a domain for $hat H$ such that it is truly self-adjoint and so possesses a complete set of eigenfunctions. The action of $hat H$ on any function in its domain is then defined in terms of the eigenfunction expansion.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thanks for the answer! I've never seen that fallacious "proof", but you are right, this seems to be very much related. Just to clarify: Are you saying that a function with compact support is not in the domain of $hat H$, or that it is in the domain but the action of $hat H$ can not be calculated as a defivative?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago










  • @Noiralef It's the "proof" that is usually trotted out in most quantum books/ courses for physicists. My colleagues are always surprised when I tell them that it is fallacious. For your second point. Yes the compactly supported $psi$ is in any reasonable definition of the domain of $hat H$, but I'm pretty sure that the action of the unitary evolution operator $exp{-it hat H}$ (this is what you really want) on it is not given by the derivatives.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago










  • 1. I should have said: I have seen that "proof" many times, and I have probably shown it to students myself, but I had never seen it pointed out as fallacious. 2. Okay, thanks! But sorry - I am still unsure what the answer to the original question is. Would such a matrix element (of $hat H$) be zero?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago












  • @Noiralef I suspect that the matrix element is zero. It's just that the power series in $dt$ for $<psi|psi(t)>$ that you derive will not converge to $<psi|psi(t)>$.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago












  • The "fallacious proof" applies to $C_{0}^{infty}$ only? I believe it is correct for Schwartz test functions of $mathcal{S}(mathbb{R})$.
    – DanielC
    yesterday















up vote
5
down vote



accepted










This is an interesting question. It is reminicent of the popular (but fallacious) "proof" that
$$
exp{iahat p}psi(x) equiv exp{apartial_x}psi(x)=psi(x+a)
$$

that claims that applying the exponential of the derivative operator to $psi$ gives the Taylor expanion of $psi(x+a)$ about $x$. The problem is that if $psi(x)$ is $C^infty$ and of compact support, then each term of the Taylor series is always exactly zero outside the support of $psi(x)$ and so $psi(x)$ can never become non-zero outside its original region of support. Of course $C^infty$ functions of compact support do not have Taylor series that converge to the function, and the resolution of this paradox is to realise that the appropriate definition of $exp{ia hat p}$ comes from its spectral decomposition. In other words we should Fourier expand $psi(x)= langle x|psirangle$ to get $psi(p)equiv langle p|psirangle $, multiply by $e^{iap}$ and then invert the Fourier expansion. Then we obtain $psi(x+a)$.



The same situation applies here. The literal definition of $H$ as a second derivative operator is not sufficiently precise. We must choose a domain for $hat H$ such that it is truly self-adjoint and so possesses a complete set of eigenfunctions. The action of $hat H$ on any function in its domain is then defined in terms of the eigenfunction expansion.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Thanks for the answer! I've never seen that fallacious "proof", but you are right, this seems to be very much related. Just to clarify: Are you saying that a function with compact support is not in the domain of $hat H$, or that it is in the domain but the action of $hat H$ can not be calculated as a defivative?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago










  • @Noiralef It's the "proof" that is usually trotted out in most quantum books/ courses for physicists. My colleagues are always surprised when I tell them that it is fallacious. For your second point. Yes the compactly supported $psi$ is in any reasonable definition of the domain of $hat H$, but I'm pretty sure that the action of the unitary evolution operator $exp{-it hat H}$ (this is what you really want) on it is not given by the derivatives.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago










  • 1. I should have said: I have seen that "proof" many times, and I have probably shown it to students myself, but I had never seen it pointed out as fallacious. 2. Okay, thanks! But sorry - I am still unsure what the answer to the original question is. Would such a matrix element (of $hat H$) be zero?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago












  • @Noiralef I suspect that the matrix element is zero. It's just that the power series in $dt$ for $<psi|psi(t)>$ that you derive will not converge to $<psi|psi(t)>$.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago












  • The "fallacious proof" applies to $C_{0}^{infty}$ only? I believe it is correct for Schwartz test functions of $mathcal{S}(mathbb{R})$.
    – DanielC
    yesterday













up vote
5
down vote



accepted







up vote
5
down vote



accepted






This is an interesting question. It is reminicent of the popular (but fallacious) "proof" that
$$
exp{iahat p}psi(x) equiv exp{apartial_x}psi(x)=psi(x+a)
$$

that claims that applying the exponential of the derivative operator to $psi$ gives the Taylor expanion of $psi(x+a)$ about $x$. The problem is that if $psi(x)$ is $C^infty$ and of compact support, then each term of the Taylor series is always exactly zero outside the support of $psi(x)$ and so $psi(x)$ can never become non-zero outside its original region of support. Of course $C^infty$ functions of compact support do not have Taylor series that converge to the function, and the resolution of this paradox is to realise that the appropriate definition of $exp{ia hat p}$ comes from its spectral decomposition. In other words we should Fourier expand $psi(x)= langle x|psirangle$ to get $psi(p)equiv langle p|psirangle $, multiply by $e^{iap}$ and then invert the Fourier expansion. Then we obtain $psi(x+a)$.



The same situation applies here. The literal definition of $H$ as a second derivative operator is not sufficiently precise. We must choose a domain for $hat H$ such that it is truly self-adjoint and so possesses a complete set of eigenfunctions. The action of $hat H$ on any function in its domain is then defined in terms of the eigenfunction expansion.






share|cite|improve this answer














This is an interesting question. It is reminicent of the popular (but fallacious) "proof" that
$$
exp{iahat p}psi(x) equiv exp{apartial_x}psi(x)=psi(x+a)
$$

that claims that applying the exponential of the derivative operator to $psi$ gives the Taylor expanion of $psi(x+a)$ about $x$. The problem is that if $psi(x)$ is $C^infty$ and of compact support, then each term of the Taylor series is always exactly zero outside the support of $psi(x)$ and so $psi(x)$ can never become non-zero outside its original region of support. Of course $C^infty$ functions of compact support do not have Taylor series that converge to the function, and the resolution of this paradox is to realise that the appropriate definition of $exp{ia hat p}$ comes from its spectral decomposition. In other words we should Fourier expand $psi(x)= langle x|psirangle$ to get $psi(p)equiv langle p|psirangle $, multiply by $e^{iap}$ and then invert the Fourier expansion. Then we obtain $psi(x+a)$.



The same situation applies here. The literal definition of $H$ as a second derivative operator is not sufficiently precise. We must choose a domain for $hat H$ such that it is truly self-adjoint and so possesses a complete set of eigenfunctions. The action of $hat H$ on any function in its domain is then defined in terms of the eigenfunction expansion.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited yesterday









DanielC

1,6391819




1,6391819










answered 2 days ago









mike stone

5,6611120




5,6611120












  • Thanks for the answer! I've never seen that fallacious "proof", but you are right, this seems to be very much related. Just to clarify: Are you saying that a function with compact support is not in the domain of $hat H$, or that it is in the domain but the action of $hat H$ can not be calculated as a defivative?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago










  • @Noiralef It's the "proof" that is usually trotted out in most quantum books/ courses for physicists. My colleagues are always surprised when I tell them that it is fallacious. For your second point. Yes the compactly supported $psi$ is in any reasonable definition of the domain of $hat H$, but I'm pretty sure that the action of the unitary evolution operator $exp{-it hat H}$ (this is what you really want) on it is not given by the derivatives.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago










  • 1. I should have said: I have seen that "proof" many times, and I have probably shown it to students myself, but I had never seen it pointed out as fallacious. 2. Okay, thanks! But sorry - I am still unsure what the answer to the original question is. Would such a matrix element (of $hat H$) be zero?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago












  • @Noiralef I suspect that the matrix element is zero. It's just that the power series in $dt$ for $<psi|psi(t)>$ that you derive will not converge to $<psi|psi(t)>$.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago












  • The "fallacious proof" applies to $C_{0}^{infty}$ only? I believe it is correct for Schwartz test functions of $mathcal{S}(mathbb{R})$.
    – DanielC
    yesterday


















  • Thanks for the answer! I've never seen that fallacious "proof", but you are right, this seems to be very much related. Just to clarify: Are you saying that a function with compact support is not in the domain of $hat H$, or that it is in the domain but the action of $hat H$ can not be calculated as a defivative?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago










  • @Noiralef It's the "proof" that is usually trotted out in most quantum books/ courses for physicists. My colleagues are always surprised when I tell them that it is fallacious. For your second point. Yes the compactly supported $psi$ is in any reasonable definition of the domain of $hat H$, but I'm pretty sure that the action of the unitary evolution operator $exp{-it hat H}$ (this is what you really want) on it is not given by the derivatives.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago










  • 1. I should have said: I have seen that "proof" many times, and I have probably shown it to students myself, but I had never seen it pointed out as fallacious. 2. Okay, thanks! But sorry - I am still unsure what the answer to the original question is. Would such a matrix element (of $hat H$) be zero?
    – Noiralef
    2 days ago












  • @Noiralef I suspect that the matrix element is zero. It's just that the power series in $dt$ for $<psi|psi(t)>$ that you derive will not converge to $<psi|psi(t)>$.
    – mike stone
    2 days ago












  • The "fallacious proof" applies to $C_{0}^{infty}$ only? I believe it is correct for Schwartz test functions of $mathcal{S}(mathbb{R})$.
    – DanielC
    yesterday
















Thanks for the answer! I've never seen that fallacious "proof", but you are right, this seems to be very much related. Just to clarify: Are you saying that a function with compact support is not in the domain of $hat H$, or that it is in the domain but the action of $hat H$ can not be calculated as a defivative?
– Noiralef
2 days ago




Thanks for the answer! I've never seen that fallacious "proof", but you are right, this seems to be very much related. Just to clarify: Are you saying that a function with compact support is not in the domain of $hat H$, or that it is in the domain but the action of $hat H$ can not be calculated as a defivative?
– Noiralef
2 days ago












@Noiralef It's the "proof" that is usually trotted out in most quantum books/ courses for physicists. My colleagues are always surprised when I tell them that it is fallacious. For your second point. Yes the compactly supported $psi$ is in any reasonable definition of the domain of $hat H$, but I'm pretty sure that the action of the unitary evolution operator $exp{-it hat H}$ (this is what you really want) on it is not given by the derivatives.
– mike stone
2 days ago




@Noiralef It's the "proof" that is usually trotted out in most quantum books/ courses for physicists. My colleagues are always surprised when I tell them that it is fallacious. For your second point. Yes the compactly supported $psi$ is in any reasonable definition of the domain of $hat H$, but I'm pretty sure that the action of the unitary evolution operator $exp{-it hat H}$ (this is what you really want) on it is not given by the derivatives.
– mike stone
2 days ago












1. I should have said: I have seen that "proof" many times, and I have probably shown it to students myself, but I had never seen it pointed out as fallacious. 2. Okay, thanks! But sorry - I am still unsure what the answer to the original question is. Would such a matrix element (of $hat H$) be zero?
– Noiralef
2 days ago






1. I should have said: I have seen that "proof" many times, and I have probably shown it to students myself, but I had never seen it pointed out as fallacious. 2. Okay, thanks! But sorry - I am still unsure what the answer to the original question is. Would such a matrix element (of $hat H$) be zero?
– Noiralef
2 days ago














@Noiralef I suspect that the matrix element is zero. It's just that the power series in $dt$ for $<psi|psi(t)>$ that you derive will not converge to $<psi|psi(t)>$.
– mike stone
2 days ago






@Noiralef I suspect that the matrix element is zero. It's just that the power series in $dt$ for $<psi|psi(t)>$ that you derive will not converge to $<psi|psi(t)>$.
– mike stone
2 days ago














The "fallacious proof" applies to $C_{0}^{infty}$ only? I believe it is correct for Schwartz test functions of $mathcal{S}(mathbb{R})$.
– DanielC
yesterday




The "fallacious proof" applies to $C_{0}^{infty}$ only? I believe it is correct for Schwartz test functions of $mathcal{S}(mathbb{R})$.
– DanielC
yesterday










up vote
2
down vote













The core of the issue is that, for unbounded operators $hat A$, the operator exponential is not defined in terms of the power series $exp(hat A) = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!}$. And it can not be defined that way, as we don't have a guarantee that this series converges.
Instead, we use the spectral theorem to define
$$ exp(hat A) = int mathrm e^a, |a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da ;, tag{1} $$
where $|a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da$ is the physicist's notation for the projection-valued measure $mathrm dP_a$.
Crucially, this is the definition used in Stone's theorem on strongly continuous unitary groups.



This means in particular that the time evolution of $|psi_2rangle$ is not $|psi_2(mathrm dt)rangle = |psi_2rangle - frac{mathrm i, mathrm dt}{hbar}hat H |psi_2rangle + mathcal O(mathrm dt^2)$ as suggested in the question.
Hence it is not a contradiction that
$$langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = 0 ;. $$



Side note: As explained in [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.3], definition (1) agrees with the power series for the case of bounded $hat A$.
Further, for all $|psirangle$ that can be written as $|psirangle = int_{-M}^M |a rangle!langle a|varphirangle , mathrm da$ for some $M in mathbb R$ and some $|varphirangle$, the power series $sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!} |psirangle$ converges to $exp(hat A)|psirangle$ [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.5].





As mentioned in the answer by mike stone, there is a simpler example demonstrating the same problem.
Let $D(alpha) = exp(mathrm i alpha hat p)$ be the translation operator ($hbar=1$).
Using definition (1), we immediately see that
$$ langle x | D(alpha) | psi rangle = int mathrm e^{mathrm i alpha p} langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp = langle x+alpha | psi rangle ;. $$
If $psi$ has compact support, this is obviously different from
$$ sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ langle x | (mathrm i alpha hat p)^n | psi rangle }{n!} = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ (alpha partial_x)^n }{n!} langle x | psi rangle = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{(mathrm ialpha)^n}{n!} int p^n langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp ;. $$
The latter expression is only correct if we can exchange the order of the integral and the series, as explained also in [Holstein, Swift (1972)].






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 1




    I already accepted the answer given by mike stone, but it made me take out my copy of Reed&Simon again and read a bit more. Posting my understanding here in case more people are curious.
    – Noiralef
    yesterday










  • Can you give the full reference of Holstein & Swift?
    – DanielC
    yesterday






  • 1




    @DanielC doi.org/10.1119/1.1986678
    – Noiralef
    yesterday















up vote
2
down vote













The core of the issue is that, for unbounded operators $hat A$, the operator exponential is not defined in terms of the power series $exp(hat A) = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!}$. And it can not be defined that way, as we don't have a guarantee that this series converges.
Instead, we use the spectral theorem to define
$$ exp(hat A) = int mathrm e^a, |a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da ;, tag{1} $$
where $|a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da$ is the physicist's notation for the projection-valued measure $mathrm dP_a$.
Crucially, this is the definition used in Stone's theorem on strongly continuous unitary groups.



This means in particular that the time evolution of $|psi_2rangle$ is not $|psi_2(mathrm dt)rangle = |psi_2rangle - frac{mathrm i, mathrm dt}{hbar}hat H |psi_2rangle + mathcal O(mathrm dt^2)$ as suggested in the question.
Hence it is not a contradiction that
$$langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = 0 ;. $$



Side note: As explained in [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.3], definition (1) agrees with the power series for the case of bounded $hat A$.
Further, for all $|psirangle$ that can be written as $|psirangle = int_{-M}^M |a rangle!langle a|varphirangle , mathrm da$ for some $M in mathbb R$ and some $|varphirangle$, the power series $sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!} |psirangle$ converges to $exp(hat A)|psirangle$ [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.5].





As mentioned in the answer by mike stone, there is a simpler example demonstrating the same problem.
Let $D(alpha) = exp(mathrm i alpha hat p)$ be the translation operator ($hbar=1$).
Using definition (1), we immediately see that
$$ langle x | D(alpha) | psi rangle = int mathrm e^{mathrm i alpha p} langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp = langle x+alpha | psi rangle ;. $$
If $psi$ has compact support, this is obviously different from
$$ sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ langle x | (mathrm i alpha hat p)^n | psi rangle }{n!} = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ (alpha partial_x)^n }{n!} langle x | psi rangle = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{(mathrm ialpha)^n}{n!} int p^n langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp ;. $$
The latter expression is only correct if we can exchange the order of the integral and the series, as explained also in [Holstein, Swift (1972)].






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 1




    I already accepted the answer given by mike stone, but it made me take out my copy of Reed&Simon again and read a bit more. Posting my understanding here in case more people are curious.
    – Noiralef
    yesterday










  • Can you give the full reference of Holstein & Swift?
    – DanielC
    yesterday






  • 1




    @DanielC doi.org/10.1119/1.1986678
    – Noiralef
    yesterday













up vote
2
down vote










up vote
2
down vote









The core of the issue is that, for unbounded operators $hat A$, the operator exponential is not defined in terms of the power series $exp(hat A) = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!}$. And it can not be defined that way, as we don't have a guarantee that this series converges.
Instead, we use the spectral theorem to define
$$ exp(hat A) = int mathrm e^a, |a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da ;, tag{1} $$
where $|a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da$ is the physicist's notation for the projection-valued measure $mathrm dP_a$.
Crucially, this is the definition used in Stone's theorem on strongly continuous unitary groups.



This means in particular that the time evolution of $|psi_2rangle$ is not $|psi_2(mathrm dt)rangle = |psi_2rangle - frac{mathrm i, mathrm dt}{hbar}hat H |psi_2rangle + mathcal O(mathrm dt^2)$ as suggested in the question.
Hence it is not a contradiction that
$$langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = 0 ;. $$



Side note: As explained in [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.3], definition (1) agrees with the power series for the case of bounded $hat A$.
Further, for all $|psirangle$ that can be written as $|psirangle = int_{-M}^M |a rangle!langle a|varphirangle , mathrm da$ for some $M in mathbb R$ and some $|varphirangle$, the power series $sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!} |psirangle$ converges to $exp(hat A)|psirangle$ [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.5].





As mentioned in the answer by mike stone, there is a simpler example demonstrating the same problem.
Let $D(alpha) = exp(mathrm i alpha hat p)$ be the translation operator ($hbar=1$).
Using definition (1), we immediately see that
$$ langle x | D(alpha) | psi rangle = int mathrm e^{mathrm i alpha p} langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp = langle x+alpha | psi rangle ;. $$
If $psi$ has compact support, this is obviously different from
$$ sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ langle x | (mathrm i alpha hat p)^n | psi rangle }{n!} = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ (alpha partial_x)^n }{n!} langle x | psi rangle = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{(mathrm ialpha)^n}{n!} int p^n langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp ;. $$
The latter expression is only correct if we can exchange the order of the integral and the series, as explained also in [Holstein, Swift (1972)].






share|cite|improve this answer












The core of the issue is that, for unbounded operators $hat A$, the operator exponential is not defined in terms of the power series $exp(hat A) = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!}$. And it can not be defined that way, as we don't have a guarantee that this series converges.
Instead, we use the spectral theorem to define
$$ exp(hat A) = int mathrm e^a, |a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da ;, tag{1} $$
where $|a rangle!langle a| , mathrm da$ is the physicist's notation for the projection-valued measure $mathrm dP_a$.
Crucially, this is the definition used in Stone's theorem on strongly continuous unitary groups.



This means in particular that the time evolution of $|psi_2rangle$ is not $|psi_2(mathrm dt)rangle = |psi_2rangle - frac{mathrm i, mathrm dt}{hbar}hat H |psi_2rangle + mathcal O(mathrm dt^2)$ as suggested in the question.
Hence it is not a contradiction that
$$langle psi_1 | hat H | psi_2 rangle = 0 ;. $$



Side note: As explained in [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.3], definition (1) agrees with the power series for the case of bounded $hat A$.
Further, for all $|psirangle$ that can be written as $|psirangle = int_{-M}^M |a rangle!langle a|varphirangle , mathrm da$ for some $M in mathbb R$ and some $|varphirangle$, the power series $sum_{k=0}^infty frac{hat A^n}{n!} |psirangle$ converges to $exp(hat A)|psirangle$ [Reed, Simon (1981), VIII.5].





As mentioned in the answer by mike stone, there is a simpler example demonstrating the same problem.
Let $D(alpha) = exp(mathrm i alpha hat p)$ be the translation operator ($hbar=1$).
Using definition (1), we immediately see that
$$ langle x | D(alpha) | psi rangle = int mathrm e^{mathrm i alpha p} langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp = langle x+alpha | psi rangle ;. $$
If $psi$ has compact support, this is obviously different from
$$ sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ langle x | (mathrm i alpha hat p)^n | psi rangle }{n!} = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{ (alpha partial_x)^n }{n!} langle x | psi rangle = sum_{k=0}^infty frac{(mathrm ialpha)^n}{n!} int p^n langle x | p rangle langle p | psi rangle ,mathrm dp ;. $$
The latter expression is only correct if we can exchange the order of the integral and the series, as explained also in [Holstein, Swift (1972)].







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered yesterday









Noiralef

3,631927




3,631927








  • 1




    I already accepted the answer given by mike stone, but it made me take out my copy of Reed&Simon again and read a bit more. Posting my understanding here in case more people are curious.
    – Noiralef
    yesterday










  • Can you give the full reference of Holstein & Swift?
    – DanielC
    yesterday






  • 1




    @DanielC doi.org/10.1119/1.1986678
    – Noiralef
    yesterday














  • 1




    I already accepted the answer given by mike stone, but it made me take out my copy of Reed&Simon again and read a bit more. Posting my understanding here in case more people are curious.
    – Noiralef
    yesterday










  • Can you give the full reference of Holstein & Swift?
    – DanielC
    yesterday






  • 1




    @DanielC doi.org/10.1119/1.1986678
    – Noiralef
    yesterday








1




1




I already accepted the answer given by mike stone, but it made me take out my copy of Reed&Simon again and read a bit more. Posting my understanding here in case more people are curious.
– Noiralef
yesterday




I already accepted the answer given by mike stone, but it made me take out my copy of Reed&Simon again and read a bit more. Posting my understanding here in case more people are curious.
– Noiralef
yesterday












Can you give the full reference of Holstein & Swift?
– DanielC
yesterday




Can you give the full reference of Holstein & Swift?
– DanielC
yesterday




1




1




@DanielC doi.org/10.1119/1.1986678
– Noiralef
yesterday




@DanielC doi.org/10.1119/1.1986678
– Noiralef
yesterday


















 

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