Is the “hero guy saves girl” trope misogynistic?
(Question about my hacker (hacking??) novel.)
Just an FYI, I am a woman.
Edward is a cyber spy and works with an organization named Vox Populi to curate and release all data online, especially the stuff that shady people don't want others to see. Edward copies and releases data that a very dangerous group of people don't want in the public eye, and these people find his place of residence and kidnap his sister, Lily, with whom he lives. With the help of his friend and sorta maybe love interest Thomas, he has to save her and dig deeper into the mess he's caused, to know the bigger picture of why these people don't want their info out in public.
I know the whole "action movie hero man saves helpless girl" trope is used often, and I'm not trying to make Lily helpless or Edward morally untouchable. But is the use of this trope bad and/or sexist? Does it reinforce the idea that women need men to save them? If so, how do I avoid this?
creative-writing characters character-development tropes
|
show 3 more comments
(Question about my hacker (hacking??) novel.)
Just an FYI, I am a woman.
Edward is a cyber spy and works with an organization named Vox Populi to curate and release all data online, especially the stuff that shady people don't want others to see. Edward copies and releases data that a very dangerous group of people don't want in the public eye, and these people find his place of residence and kidnap his sister, Lily, with whom he lives. With the help of his friend and sorta maybe love interest Thomas, he has to save her and dig deeper into the mess he's caused, to know the bigger picture of why these people don't want their info out in public.
I know the whole "action movie hero man saves helpless girl" trope is used often, and I'm not trying to make Lily helpless or Edward morally untouchable. But is the use of this trope bad and/or sexist? Does it reinforce the idea that women need men to save them? If so, how do I avoid this?
creative-writing characters character-development tropes
1
Related: How can I tell if a concept is sexist? , How do I develop a strong female character?
– Standback
yesterday
7
You can be sure some people will find it mysogynic. But some people will find a fireman saving a woman from a burning house mysogynic too. Don't worry, just write your thing.
– SF.
19 hours ago
I can't help wonder if Lily's name is subliminally contributing to people's fears that she will be completely inert as a character Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
1
The problem with this trope is the extreme disparity of what's at stake. A woman abducted by a stranger has much higher stakes than a man whose sister got kidnapped. It's the same mis-match with Women In Refrigerators: being murdered is MUCH WORSE than a villain trying to throw the hero off his game. If there is "misogyny" it's that this (description-less) sister is passed like a football to show which team is "winning". As others have said, she could be a vase or a poodle or a microchip.... Keep the highest stakes with your MC, not with an expendable character.
– wetcircuit
16 hours ago
1
@WadeWilson: I was going to suggest something similar, but rather than let the sister give them the slip, have her choices factor into leaving clues that her brother would understand as coded messages that allow her to signal her location or other method of communicating. Many Urban Self defense courses do teach people how to get messages out without alerting your kidnapper to what you are doing. It's not even new. Gretel left the breadcrumbs to get her and Hansel back home. It would have worked too, if not for the birds.
– hszmv
14 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
(Question about my hacker (hacking??) novel.)
Just an FYI, I am a woman.
Edward is a cyber spy and works with an organization named Vox Populi to curate and release all data online, especially the stuff that shady people don't want others to see. Edward copies and releases data that a very dangerous group of people don't want in the public eye, and these people find his place of residence and kidnap his sister, Lily, with whom he lives. With the help of his friend and sorta maybe love interest Thomas, he has to save her and dig deeper into the mess he's caused, to know the bigger picture of why these people don't want their info out in public.
I know the whole "action movie hero man saves helpless girl" trope is used often, and I'm not trying to make Lily helpless or Edward morally untouchable. But is the use of this trope bad and/or sexist? Does it reinforce the idea that women need men to save them? If so, how do I avoid this?
creative-writing characters character-development tropes
(Question about my hacker (hacking??) novel.)
Just an FYI, I am a woman.
Edward is a cyber spy and works with an organization named Vox Populi to curate and release all data online, especially the stuff that shady people don't want others to see. Edward copies and releases data that a very dangerous group of people don't want in the public eye, and these people find his place of residence and kidnap his sister, Lily, with whom he lives. With the help of his friend and sorta maybe love interest Thomas, he has to save her and dig deeper into the mess he's caused, to know the bigger picture of why these people don't want their info out in public.
I know the whole "action movie hero man saves helpless girl" trope is used often, and I'm not trying to make Lily helpless or Edward morally untouchable. But is the use of this trope bad and/or sexist? Does it reinforce the idea that women need men to save them? If so, how do I avoid this?
creative-writing characters character-development tropes
creative-writing characters character-development tropes
asked 2 days ago
weakdnaweakdna
1,36831030
1,36831030
1
Related: How can I tell if a concept is sexist? , How do I develop a strong female character?
– Standback
yesterday
7
You can be sure some people will find it mysogynic. But some people will find a fireman saving a woman from a burning house mysogynic too. Don't worry, just write your thing.
– SF.
19 hours ago
I can't help wonder if Lily's name is subliminally contributing to people's fears that she will be completely inert as a character Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
1
The problem with this trope is the extreme disparity of what's at stake. A woman abducted by a stranger has much higher stakes than a man whose sister got kidnapped. It's the same mis-match with Women In Refrigerators: being murdered is MUCH WORSE than a villain trying to throw the hero off his game. If there is "misogyny" it's that this (description-less) sister is passed like a football to show which team is "winning". As others have said, she could be a vase or a poodle or a microchip.... Keep the highest stakes with your MC, not with an expendable character.
– wetcircuit
16 hours ago
1
@WadeWilson: I was going to suggest something similar, but rather than let the sister give them the slip, have her choices factor into leaving clues that her brother would understand as coded messages that allow her to signal her location or other method of communicating. Many Urban Self defense courses do teach people how to get messages out without alerting your kidnapper to what you are doing. It's not even new. Gretel left the breadcrumbs to get her and Hansel back home. It would have worked too, if not for the birds.
– hszmv
14 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
1
Related: How can I tell if a concept is sexist? , How do I develop a strong female character?
– Standback
yesterday
7
You can be sure some people will find it mysogynic. But some people will find a fireman saving a woman from a burning house mysogynic too. Don't worry, just write your thing.
– SF.
19 hours ago
I can't help wonder if Lily's name is subliminally contributing to people's fears that she will be completely inert as a character Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
1
The problem with this trope is the extreme disparity of what's at stake. A woman abducted by a stranger has much higher stakes than a man whose sister got kidnapped. It's the same mis-match with Women In Refrigerators: being murdered is MUCH WORSE than a villain trying to throw the hero off his game. If there is "misogyny" it's that this (description-less) sister is passed like a football to show which team is "winning". As others have said, she could be a vase or a poodle or a microchip.... Keep the highest stakes with your MC, not with an expendable character.
– wetcircuit
16 hours ago
1
@WadeWilson: I was going to suggest something similar, but rather than let the sister give them the slip, have her choices factor into leaving clues that her brother would understand as coded messages that allow her to signal her location or other method of communicating. Many Urban Self defense courses do teach people how to get messages out without alerting your kidnapper to what you are doing. It's not even new. Gretel left the breadcrumbs to get her and Hansel back home. It would have worked too, if not for the birds.
– hszmv
14 hours ago
1
1
Related: How can I tell if a concept is sexist? , How do I develop a strong female character?
– Standback
yesterday
Related: How can I tell if a concept is sexist? , How do I develop a strong female character?
– Standback
yesterday
7
7
You can be sure some people will find it mysogynic. But some people will find a fireman saving a woman from a burning house mysogynic too. Don't worry, just write your thing.
– SF.
19 hours ago
You can be sure some people will find it mysogynic. But some people will find a fireman saving a woman from a burning house mysogynic too. Don't worry, just write your thing.
– SF.
19 hours ago
I can't help wonder if Lily's name is subliminally contributing to people's fears that she will be completely inert as a character Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
I can't help wonder if Lily's name is subliminally contributing to people's fears that she will be completely inert as a character Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
1
1
The problem with this trope is the extreme disparity of what's at stake. A woman abducted by a stranger has much higher stakes than a man whose sister got kidnapped. It's the same mis-match with Women In Refrigerators: being murdered is MUCH WORSE than a villain trying to throw the hero off his game. If there is "misogyny" it's that this (description-less) sister is passed like a football to show which team is "winning". As others have said, she could be a vase or a poodle or a microchip.... Keep the highest stakes with your MC, not with an expendable character.
– wetcircuit
16 hours ago
The problem with this trope is the extreme disparity of what's at stake. A woman abducted by a stranger has much higher stakes than a man whose sister got kidnapped. It's the same mis-match with Women In Refrigerators: being murdered is MUCH WORSE than a villain trying to throw the hero off his game. If there is "misogyny" it's that this (description-less) sister is passed like a football to show which team is "winning". As others have said, she could be a vase or a poodle or a microchip.... Keep the highest stakes with your MC, not with an expendable character.
– wetcircuit
16 hours ago
1
1
@WadeWilson: I was going to suggest something similar, but rather than let the sister give them the slip, have her choices factor into leaving clues that her brother would understand as coded messages that allow her to signal her location or other method of communicating. Many Urban Self defense courses do teach people how to get messages out without alerting your kidnapper to what you are doing. It's not even new. Gretel left the breadcrumbs to get her and Hansel back home. It would have worked too, if not for the birds.
– hszmv
14 hours ago
@WadeWilson: I was going to suggest something similar, but rather than let the sister give them the slip, have her choices factor into leaving clues that her brother would understand as coded messages that allow her to signal her location or other method of communicating. Many Urban Self defense courses do teach people how to get messages out without alerting your kidnapper to what you are doing. It's not even new. Gretel left the breadcrumbs to get her and Hansel back home. It would have worked too, if not for the birds.
– hszmv
14 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
13 Answers
13
active
oldest
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This is a matter of opinion; personally I don't find it sexist. People have genders, and sexual orientations, and they have to mix.
We stray into sexism when we pile up too many tropes. In your case, you avoid the trope of sexual reward for Edward's effort on two fronts; Lily is his sister, and he doesn't seem oriented toward heterosexual reward anyway. Also, any family member has inherent value to normal people.
She doesn't have to be "helpless", she can fight and perhaps injure her captors. I love the little girl kidnapped in Along Came A Spider, she actually manages to escape, freeing herself and then repeatedly injuring herself loosening boards but continuing her efforts despite this. Although she would have been caught if the hero did not show up in time; I was impressed the writers did not make that little girl just a damsel in distress waiting for a white knight.
Do something similar. A stereotype is a collection of traits, you can break it by letting Lily play against type. Heck, you might make it clear that given another hour or two, she might not have needed Edward to save her at all.
68
I've seen people say that if the captured female character could be replaced with a valuable heirloom vase, it's a bad narrative. Sexist, maybe, but at the very minimum, bad writing.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
Your comment also reminded me of the plot of Dishonored, which is entirely about rescuing a little girl; after finding her, it's clear she's been causing as much trouble as she can, and manages to get herself through a dangerous city no problem, once she's freed.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
In the film Commando (80s Schwarzenegger action film) the kidnapped little girl attempts to make her own escape and even gets out of the room they are holding her in. That actually makes the difference in timing as the bad guys come to get her and her actions delay them just enough. Even that little twist is a nice touch.
– Tim B
2 days ago
11
@Stilez It is not a copout. We are talking about entertainment and fiction and Misogyny, all that matters is what the audience perceives about a female victim. Making her proactive defeats the audience perception of misogyny. It doesn't have to pass a rigorous test in a court of law, it has to appeal to the audience, of males and females, that the female is not just waiting on a male but actively trying to do something about her situation, thinking and taking risks. Then even the males in the audience can sympathize and admire her; because they could also need rescue from the same situation.
– Amadeus
yesterday
11
@Stilez it is not misogyny for character A to rescue character B. It is not misogyny if character B is overwhelmed by forces he/she cannot defeat alone. If I write about Edward aiming to save his brother Billy from kidnappers, that is not automatically a better story than Edward aiming to save his sister Lily. In either case, Edward can succeed without diminishing the agency of Billy, or Lily. You are seeing automatic misogyny where none need exist; Neither sibling is weak for being outgunned. I think you are being sexist thinking the stories differ just because of the victim's gender.
– Amadeus
yesterday
|
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In general, if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. The most important thing here is to give the character her own agency, try to avoid the trap of the "strong female character" where she has no significant flaws, and make damn sure she isn't just used to create "manpain".
S. L. Huang explains "manpain" very well in this blog post.
There's a fan term called “manpain” that fascinates me. It refers to the phenomenon of a media property that excessively and self-centeredly focuses on a male character's angst after tragic events happen to the people around him.
I would also advise that you make sure there's a good reason the kidnappers take his sister instead of him, instead of the usual ransom/sexist/"we're gonna hurt him by hurting his sister!" (again, manpain) reasoning. Perhaps a mix-up, or--since this is the digital world and the kidnappers may not necessarily know the real-life identity of their target--the kidnappers thought Lily was the infamous "hax0rb4be".
Good luck!
New contributor
7
See also: Women in Refrigerators.
– F1Krazy
2 days ago
1
I particularly like this answer, as it neatly explains why the vast amount of Romance genre literature written largely by women for women with plots just like this isn't "misogynistic".
– T.E.D.
yesterday
4
@T.E.D.: Except it doesn't. Internalized misogyny is a thing.
– R..
yesterday
1
@JohnK Mainly, it's been done to death. Contemporary works do it a lot less than before, so the trope will probably have a revival in a decade or two :) But even in principle, characters should usually have some characterisation; placing characters in the story with no characterisation is a waste - and once you start adding characterisation, it quickly becomes annoying that this interesting character just sits on their ass doing nothing - even if it's part of the characterisation. Why have boring or worthless characters with less character than One Ring? Just cut them out.
– Luaan
19 hours ago
5
@JohnK When you are a member of the sex that generally gets to be the McGuffin, it gets incredibly wearing. And it has real world consequences, the more men and women, girls and boys are presented with narratives of active males and passive females, the more they think that's how it has to be. Where does that leave the developing minds who don't feel they fit the expectations society has for their sex?
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Answer: It depends on the execution.
What makes this misogyny is if the sister is in the story (solely) to allow Edward to be a hero. If she is a throwaway character who serves only to provide a prop for him, then your execution is flawed and in that case, yes it is misogynistic.
But, if the sister is a hero in her own right, perhaps facilitating Edward's efforts earlier using skills that she has and he does not, or perhaps playing a required role in the escape that Edward cannot or does not play, (perhaps he is wounded or some such thing, perhaps she can pick locks, who knows...), then no.
If she has her own life within the novel, a personal goal and conflict, and if she is fully realized and participates uniquely in the story arc, you will be okay.
25
It sounds like you're saying any use of a woman as a macguffin is misogynistic, which I definitely don't agree with. It might be lazy writing, but I don't see how using a woman is significantly different than, say, a ring. It only becomes misogynistic if the fact she is a woman is the reason she is the macguffin, rather than being an insignificant attribute. But, this is probably too subjective to be definitive on.
– Benubird
2 days ago
2
I kind of see where you're coming from, and I partly agree, but I feel like this is mostly a problem with recurring or central characters. When you've got a regular character whose only role is to be a helpless woman, it strays into stereotype. I feel like this isn't so much of an issue with one-off characters, because readers get a different message - think about how often superheroes save people from burning buildings or whatnot.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
16
@Benubird - I get what you're saying, and I suppose you're strictly right, but I would say that it's not just bad writing, but unrealistic and unfair to the character to write them with no more personality than an object. And since it reinforces societal stereotypes without a a good reason, it's probably best avoided. For that matter, I don't think it's advisable to write a major non-female character who's got as much characterization as an object, even if it's probably not as stereotypical.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
12
Not just women, but as Aninonin says, ... if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. In my view, every villain, every loyal friend, every woman and man... should have some reason to be in the story. Fine, you can have stock warriors or what have you, but good books are good for a reason--and rarely have poorly-fleshed characters. In the original question, the sister is introduced as someone to be saved. That's it. I don't believe she was even given a name in the question. (& nothing re: stereotypes was asked.)
– DPT
2 days ago
4
Not just helpless, but at some point she has to lose some of her clothing and venture into the dark corridor on her own. I've never seen a male hero do that. She might even twist her ankle and the hero has to pick her up and carry her. Ugh.
– RedSonja
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
Although your question skipped a lot of detail, what is there suggests how misogynism could enter through the cracks.
Let's look at your summary, and not unreasonably, assume that what you focus on in it, reflects how you've come to this storyline and where your emphasis and attention is - what matters to you. The point being, what doesn't matter to an author, what they don't love as much or put as much insight into - those often become the stereotypes, filled in by default, because it's quick and easy and their mind wasn't on it anyway.
What we learn about Edward: He's a spy. He works for an organisation. The organisation is fleshed out enough to have a name and goals. What he does for them. He has a sister. Her name. Where she lives. He has an ally in the rescue. He has a maybe love interest. The maybe love interest's name.
What we learn about Lily: Absolutely nothing. (She is a woman living with her brother, at most)
You're in danger of stereotypes - and many stereotypes in this narrative are sexist - simply because it doesn't seem that Lily has any intrinsic interest as a person to you. She's a foil, a trigger for the actions of someone else far more important. She can be filled in by simplified routine outline because Lily isn't a character, she's an object - she serves a role, she isn't presented as being of deep interest as a person.
How to avoid mysogynism? Do the opposite. Flesh her out as a person, as if she is the real hero or centre of focus - which is a good way to ensure you write all characters well. Love each of them. Care about each. Understand each.
Think hard about her, as you would about Edward. Is she as proactive as her brother? Does she just passively listen and think with feminine adoration "how clever he is!" (I hope not!) Does she agree or not, has she picked up things from him or not, what has led her to live with him, what is her inner life like? These and many more. Think about her life, her strong views, her goals and perspectives, where she's been and where she's going, and all that binds it together and makes Lily really interesting, enough that you could write a story about her, not him.
In Harry Potter, as much attention is given to the personalities of the hero's opponents, as to the hero himself - more in the case of some like Snape. Side characters are fleshed out in depth - the caring Molly who unexoectedly leaps to her daughters defense shouting "You bitch!", even the father of the antagonist, his wife, her sister. All lovingly dwelt on before fingers hit keys - and it shows. Ditto most good novels. Do right by Lily, and give her, her own life that's led to this point, not just an object or foil with a light touch of veneer, try to write her story, in this, not just the hero's, and she'll do right by you as a solid balanced character too.
6
I wish I could upvote this more. It's important to remember tropes are only tools. The damsel-in-distress isn't sexist. It's not not sexist either. What makes it sexist or not is whether the damsel is a mere plot device, an object of conquest, a goal, or if she is indeed a real character.
– AmiralPatate
yesterday
In Harry Potter, the actual opponents are pretty bad too. You can clearly see the contrast between the characterisation of Lucius (boo, bad guy) and Severus (yay, a hidden hero!). Draco's characterisation is all about "hate mudbloods, being a bastard" - we only get a glimpse into his character when he switches side at the very end. But HP is still a good example in character design - the characters that aren't just foils are fleshed out, consistent and they make sense. The foils are still just foils, which is a missed opportunity, but that's common in children's books.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
The scenario is not misogynistic. People need saving--sometimes those people are women. It also doesn't matter whether she "fights back" against her captors. The most realistic scenario of an everyday person being kidnapped by trained professionals is that they're going to sit there and do nothing. They're outnumbered, outmatched, and probably restrained--what are they going to do? What you want to avoid is not misogyny, but bad writing. That is, writing that makes the audience not care what happens.
See, a lot of claimed "misogyny" in media is just bad writing, but the character is a woman. Consider the damsel in distress trope we're talking about here. If a woman is introduced who has no purpose but to be rescued, the question I'm asking isn't "Why does the author hate women?" but "Why do I care what happens to her?" Well, I might care indirectly because the protagonist cares and I (hopefully) care about him, and perhaps in an abstract sense of not wanting bad things to happen to people. But it's going to be a lot more effective if I also care about the woman herself. And that's why it's important to flesh out her character--not anything about her sex. After all, an agender person who has no character other than being rescued by the transman protagonist would be just as uninteresting, albeit considerably less common.
(At this point someone will jump in saying that female characters are more commonly poorly-written than male characters. That's probably true, but also irrelevant. This is your work--what other people do is on them.)
Now don't get me wrong, you can totally go beyond bad writing to do this trope in a misogynistic manner. Probably the most common is a sort of subtle victim-blaming in how the scenario is presented. "Of course she got kidnapped--she's a woman. A man would never be so weak and foolish as to allow himself to be kidnapped, but women, well, they just can't help it." But you don't seem like the kind of person who would write like this, so I wouldn't worry about it much.
Spot on. Although I’d point out to those saying it’s misogynistic if she could be replaced with a heirloom, that the trope can still work even if she never appears. Perhaps the kidnappers found a note saying she just win a cruise and will be out of touch for a month, and then lie. They take the note and at the end he finds it after defeating that bad guys. Or they gloat about it as they kill him, he dies knowing it was all for nought. It’s the story that matters, it can be told badly an infinite number of ways, just as it can be told well in an infinite number of ways.
– jmoreno
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I agree with everyone, it depends.
There are very few original stories on this earth. No one is expecting a totally original story.
We only have 2 real genders. So you can have M saves F, M saves M, F saves M, F saves F. 4 combinations. Even if you include all the new genders, say, 17x17 is just 289 combinations, a pitifully small number in the face of the thousands of stories being created every single day.
Totally helpless damsel in distress is not misogynistic, but it is really old fashion, a bit unrealistic, and quite boring.
Take the Terminator, it started out as classic hero saving a damsel in distress story with Kyle Reese traveling back in time to save Sarah Connor. But within the 2 hours run time of the movie, that helpless damsel, an ordinary waitress, grew into a pillar of strength, and the mother of humanity's last hope.
New contributor
11
"We only have 2 real genders" may give the impression of being phrased to antagonise. If that wasn't your intention, it could be edited out without changing the core of the answer.
– trichoplax
2 days ago
3
Just pointing out the mathematical fact that there are a very finite number of combinations of who can rescue whom, relative to the nearly infinite number of stories being weaved. Any combination you can come up with can't possibly be original in and of itself. Therefore, just relax, and write a good story that entertains (and if it says something, all the better)
– ashleylee
2 days ago
3
"a bit unrealistic" - why? Historically, it was overwhelmingly the men who did the hunting and the fighting, and even today they do most of the more dangerous work. It's a simple fact that it's more common for men to be risk-takers than for women.
– vsz
yesterday
@vsz I'd go even further - it's extremely common for people in danger to do nothing to help themselves, even if it is easy and essentially risk-free. It's true for both men and women. It's also true for the would-be rescuer, so if we were writing realistic fiction, by far the most common story would be "Woman doesn't come back from work, guy calls the police and keeps worrying for a few weeks, the end." :)
– Luaan
18 hours ago
@Luaan: common yes. interesting no. if a story is just superman rescuing stranded kittens out of tall trees........ yes that would be realistic. it wouldn't be anti-kittens, but man would it be boring after the 5th time.
– ashleylee
14 hours ago
add a comment |
I don't find this scenario misogynistic, but it might be a missed opportunity. Recently, in my own work, I've questioned why my heroes are often white and male, even though I'm a writer of color. I do have reasons (I'd like to cast a new point of view on members of the majority culture, and build a mainstream audience, and I don't like feeling "required" to write characters that resemble me demographically) but at a certain point I have to question why I would choose to tread such a well-trodden path. It's an especially acute question, given that strong protagonists of color are dramatically under-represented in my chosen genres.
You might find yourself writing a much more original story --one there might be unmet demand for --if Lily were the cyber-spy, and Edward were the one who got kidnapped.
It sounds like something in this basic concept isn't sitting right with you at a certain level. Maybe you should ask yourself the question I've started to ask myself: If this was a book someone else had written, would I be excited to read it? And would I see myself in its pages?
5
It's even a good opportunity to subvert the trope. Edward is a small-time leaker who it turns out was motivated in his actions by his sister Lily, an accomplished cyber-spy. In his efforts to save Lily, he attempts to use information as leverage and ends up getting kidnapped himself. It turns out Lily wasn't kidnapped at all but was actually hiding, and she ends up saving Edward.
– called2voyage
yesterday
add a comment |
I would say that no, it is not misogynistic, and particularly in your case it's realistic.
The majority of people working in the tech industry are male; for example, women only represent 33% of the workforce in silicon valley, so it makes total sense that your character whose background is IT-oriented is male.
People in the spying industry get threats all the time (or, at least, the ones portrayed in pop culture do) so it's not a far reach to suggest that one's sibling get kidnapped. It can be the start of a good plot.
Edward's sibling that gets abducted has a roughly 50% chance of being a sister or brother, choosing his sibling to be a sister is just a choice you made, it shouldn't need to be defended. It's not like you're going against the odds to get a woman in that role.
Most people who get kidnapped are quite helpless when they are being held captive, regardless of gender. Therefore it's not particularly degrading to women to portray a female hostage as such. It's to be expected.
Furthermore, most people who have a family member in danger will do all they can to help them. It's reasonable that Edward goes off to help his sister.
So I would say that hacker guy whose sister gets abducted goes on a mission to save her isn't misogynistic, it's realistic.
Pointing out the obvious here but don't make her helpless by using stereotypes involving women (e.g. don't say "she was easily abducted because she didn't want to fight back out of fear of messing up her hair").
New contributor
8
Also, the hero to be male is statistically more likely. Men are evolutionarily more predisposed to be risk-takers. It's not impossible for women, but still it's much more common in men. During the vast majority of human history, men were always the expendable gender, doing dangerous tasks, going out to hunt and to fight, risking themselves to protect women, because of the simple fact that losing many women would make the tribe go extinct, while losing many men wouldn't (as a tribe with many women and few men could reproduce better than a tribe with few women and many men).
– vsz
yesterday
8
The fact that it's realistic doesn't stop it also being highly misogynistic. I can't agree with this answer, which conflates the two. If society is misogynist, then replicating it will also be so. "Realistic" is not an excuse.
– Stilez
yesterday
2
@Stilez Current societal structure is part of reality. If the story has a realistic setting (it seems to me it has), you want to change as little about the world as possible while still enabling the plot. Setting up your story with irrealistic or at least improbable preconditions in order to not seem misogynistic (aka virtue signalling) can be itself considered misogynistic. :) I think you should only change the default preconditions if it is relevant to the story, otherwise, it seems unnecessary and possibly counterproductive to me. The answer seems very reasonable.
– P.Péter
19 hours ago
1
@Stilez Of course "realistic" is an excuse. That doesn't mean it's good writing. Writing intentionally breaks lots of realism to write in a way that's nice to read, interesting etc. Unless you seriously overdo it, it's just part of the suspension of disbelief that any fiction entails. If you think that "guy rescues girl" is misogynistic... well, that's seriously deflating the seriousness of what misogyny is.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
Coming from a different perspective, IMHO, a better story is how a man and a women save each other. A strong man and completely helpless woman is boring and unrealistic. The other direction, think if the Simpsons is great for comedy, but would also be boring in a drama or action flick.
A cheesy way to do this is for the man to face several opponents, and beat all but one. As that villain is closing in to deal the death blow to our hero, the heroine musters enough courage/know how/strength to deal a death blow to that villain and save our hero. Yay!
What weakness does your hero have that the female lead can save him from? What weakness does your female have that our hero can save her from?
To me that is what makes an interesting story in real life and in fiction.
Letting her defeat one bad guy while the badass hero defeats several bad guys doesn't seem like gender equality to me. How about letting the damsel contribute in other ways to the rescue than just in form of combat? Maybe she has some technical skill which saves the day? Maybe she has better emotional intelligence than the badass action hero, allowing her to solve a problem through deception or persuation which can not be solved with violence?
– Philipp
17 hours ago
add a comment |
It's not sexism, sure. It's a story where one person saves another person. Change roles - let the girl save the boy, and nothing will change. Bad people are stealing the main character's relative, if Edward had a brother, bad people would steal boy, right?
Talking about the main idea of the plot - right you are, the topic seems to be canonic. But. It usually depends on authors skills and other plot features like unexpected situations, dialog etc. You are to make the story being not boring and add something innovative - and no one will say the plot is already used and the story is a duplicate. That's my opinion.
New contributor
add a comment |
Misogynistic or sexist is a soft judgement - there is no clear yes/no criterium. So the answer can't be "yes" or "no", it is more likely that on a spectrum between extreme misogyny and extreme equality of sexes, your work will be somewhere inbetween.
Different people and cultures rate these things very differently. My wife, for example, is a very strong woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, but she loves it when a man holds the door or helps her carry things. In her eyes, these are small priviledges of being a woman. In the eyes of a more feminist person, these things might be patriarchially oppressive behaviour.
There is nothing wrong with a strong male character and a female character in need of rescue. The best test I know for sexist bias is to reverse the roles in your head and check if you would consider that somehow wrong. If the sexes are interchangeable, then you aren't being sexist because your characters need to be one sex or the other and you simply happened to pick them the way you did.
It also helps if secondary characters break up the stereotype. If all the men in your story are strong hero-types and all the women are rescue-me-princesses, you probably have a gender bias issue. If your world is reasonably mixed and believable balanced, and just the main characters happen to be in this particular configuration, you probably don't.
add a comment |
Mostly this would depend on how well its done, and how much sense it makes. Typically in writing if you can answer the question of "Why?" then you have a case to include that element or whatever it is that was in question and that certainly applies here.
Don't make Lily seem like someone who doesn't need saving in whatever situation she finds herself in and make Edward seem like someone whose incapable of saving someone in the given situation. As long as you can provide an answer as to why Lily needs Edward to save her, you shouldn't have any problem at all.
The tricky part of making sure you can do that is to make sure you dont over do it. For example theres no need to make Lily some crybaby who cant lift her shoes and her feet off the ground at the same time, but she shouldnt hold all the necessary cards to get herself out of the situation without Edward.
If you worry that the trope is too sexist try looking for other stories that the trope is also in. Just to pull one out of the air here: in Mario Princess Peach is taken by Bowser and for whatever reason Mario can eat things and get superpowers. Princess Peach in this situation cannot escape on her own, but its justified because Bowser isn't just a normal person. If you dont see common examples of the Trope as sexist, you're probably just suffering from your own criticisms getting in the way of your writing.
3
Hmm. Most would say, I think, that Peach is a prime bad example because she has no agency whatsoever (at least in the early games, and the more modern platformers I've played), and is just an object for Mario to rescue. She could be swapped out for Mario's family heirlooms and nothing would change.
– Azor Ahai
2 days ago
2
It's interesting to note that in a lot of the later games, Peach aids in her own rescue (first two Paper Mario games), escapes/nearly escapes on her own (Super Mario 3D Land), has to think about others that can't escape on their own (Super Mario Odyssey), uses trickery to avoid capture (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga), is rendered incapable of doing anything whatsoever (Super Mario 64), and/or is under Bowser's constant watch (Odyssey again). They try to show that it's less that she's an object to rescue, and more that she just can't fight Bowser and his entire army together..
– Justin Time
2 days ago
@AzorAhai I just pulled a random example out of the air I suppose. I would argue that Peach isn't necessarily powerless, but she's up against a force that is just too powerful. Like if the King wanted an asteroid gone, he's not powerless he's just trying to do something that can't be done by a normal person. Whatever though, if my example doesnt really work I'm sure everyone knows atleast one good example.
– M.Wallace
2 days ago
1
(Note that Bowser is also supposed to be skilled with dark magic, and is also able to fight off Peach's entire royal guard at the same time (although, since they're just Toads, that's not too much of a difficult task). While Peach has magic powers, too (mainly floating & telekinesis/telepathy), she seems to be the only good guy with them, while Bowser has magic himself and a force of magic-using minions (including his most trusted advisor, usually). Later games actually give the impression that it's less that Peach is helpless, and more that the Mario bros. are insanely badass...
– Justin Time
2 days ago
2
That's very true, @AzorAhai, thanks to cultural osmosis. I honestly think she's going to remain the example of the "damsel in distress" stereotype in gaming for a very long time, no matter how interesting & developed the games make her; there are much worse examples, though, such as Elise from (*shudder*) Sonic 06, who gets kidnapped as many times in one game as Peach does in... somewhere around 10-15 years' worth of games, IIRC. And the overalls vs. dress thing was simply a comment on how practical their clothing is for fighting/escaping an army (Mario's helps, Peach's gets in the way).
– Justin Time
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
The trope itself isn't sexist, but there are ways of doing things that can make a given instance sexist. You should be fine if:
- The female rescuee isn't shown to be totally helpless or incompetent (mistakes are fine, infact mistakes can be good, but it should be outweighed by, or at least balanced out by, things they do right). This should be addressed in the capture scenario too.
- The rescuer isn't saying or doing misogynistic things during or before the rescue scenario
- Romance/sex is involved in your story but isn't introduced here or made to seem like it is a reward or sole motivator for the rescue. Or if there is no romance/sex aspect at all.
Obviously adapt this to your story and the plot points you have already decided on.
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This is a matter of opinion; personally I don't find it sexist. People have genders, and sexual orientations, and they have to mix.
We stray into sexism when we pile up too many tropes. In your case, you avoid the trope of sexual reward for Edward's effort on two fronts; Lily is his sister, and he doesn't seem oriented toward heterosexual reward anyway. Also, any family member has inherent value to normal people.
She doesn't have to be "helpless", she can fight and perhaps injure her captors. I love the little girl kidnapped in Along Came A Spider, she actually manages to escape, freeing herself and then repeatedly injuring herself loosening boards but continuing her efforts despite this. Although she would have been caught if the hero did not show up in time; I was impressed the writers did not make that little girl just a damsel in distress waiting for a white knight.
Do something similar. A stereotype is a collection of traits, you can break it by letting Lily play against type. Heck, you might make it clear that given another hour or two, she might not have needed Edward to save her at all.
68
I've seen people say that if the captured female character could be replaced with a valuable heirloom vase, it's a bad narrative. Sexist, maybe, but at the very minimum, bad writing.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
Your comment also reminded me of the plot of Dishonored, which is entirely about rescuing a little girl; after finding her, it's clear she's been causing as much trouble as she can, and manages to get herself through a dangerous city no problem, once she's freed.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
In the film Commando (80s Schwarzenegger action film) the kidnapped little girl attempts to make her own escape and even gets out of the room they are holding her in. That actually makes the difference in timing as the bad guys come to get her and her actions delay them just enough. Even that little twist is a nice touch.
– Tim B
2 days ago
11
@Stilez It is not a copout. We are talking about entertainment and fiction and Misogyny, all that matters is what the audience perceives about a female victim. Making her proactive defeats the audience perception of misogyny. It doesn't have to pass a rigorous test in a court of law, it has to appeal to the audience, of males and females, that the female is not just waiting on a male but actively trying to do something about her situation, thinking and taking risks. Then even the males in the audience can sympathize and admire her; because they could also need rescue from the same situation.
– Amadeus
yesterday
11
@Stilez it is not misogyny for character A to rescue character B. It is not misogyny if character B is overwhelmed by forces he/she cannot defeat alone. If I write about Edward aiming to save his brother Billy from kidnappers, that is not automatically a better story than Edward aiming to save his sister Lily. In either case, Edward can succeed without diminishing the agency of Billy, or Lily. You are seeing automatic misogyny where none need exist; Neither sibling is weak for being outgunned. I think you are being sexist thinking the stories differ just because of the victim's gender.
– Amadeus
yesterday
|
show 15 more comments
This is a matter of opinion; personally I don't find it sexist. People have genders, and sexual orientations, and they have to mix.
We stray into sexism when we pile up too many tropes. In your case, you avoid the trope of sexual reward for Edward's effort on two fronts; Lily is his sister, and he doesn't seem oriented toward heterosexual reward anyway. Also, any family member has inherent value to normal people.
She doesn't have to be "helpless", she can fight and perhaps injure her captors. I love the little girl kidnapped in Along Came A Spider, she actually manages to escape, freeing herself and then repeatedly injuring herself loosening boards but continuing her efforts despite this. Although she would have been caught if the hero did not show up in time; I was impressed the writers did not make that little girl just a damsel in distress waiting for a white knight.
Do something similar. A stereotype is a collection of traits, you can break it by letting Lily play against type. Heck, you might make it clear that given another hour or two, she might not have needed Edward to save her at all.
68
I've seen people say that if the captured female character could be replaced with a valuable heirloom vase, it's a bad narrative. Sexist, maybe, but at the very minimum, bad writing.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
Your comment also reminded me of the plot of Dishonored, which is entirely about rescuing a little girl; after finding her, it's clear she's been causing as much trouble as she can, and manages to get herself through a dangerous city no problem, once she's freed.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
In the film Commando (80s Schwarzenegger action film) the kidnapped little girl attempts to make her own escape and even gets out of the room they are holding her in. That actually makes the difference in timing as the bad guys come to get her and her actions delay them just enough. Even that little twist is a nice touch.
– Tim B
2 days ago
11
@Stilez It is not a copout. We are talking about entertainment and fiction and Misogyny, all that matters is what the audience perceives about a female victim. Making her proactive defeats the audience perception of misogyny. It doesn't have to pass a rigorous test in a court of law, it has to appeal to the audience, of males and females, that the female is not just waiting on a male but actively trying to do something about her situation, thinking and taking risks. Then even the males in the audience can sympathize and admire her; because they could also need rescue from the same situation.
– Amadeus
yesterday
11
@Stilez it is not misogyny for character A to rescue character B. It is not misogyny if character B is overwhelmed by forces he/she cannot defeat alone. If I write about Edward aiming to save his brother Billy from kidnappers, that is not automatically a better story than Edward aiming to save his sister Lily. In either case, Edward can succeed without diminishing the agency of Billy, or Lily. You are seeing automatic misogyny where none need exist; Neither sibling is weak for being outgunned. I think you are being sexist thinking the stories differ just because of the victim's gender.
– Amadeus
yesterday
|
show 15 more comments
This is a matter of opinion; personally I don't find it sexist. People have genders, and sexual orientations, and they have to mix.
We stray into sexism when we pile up too many tropes. In your case, you avoid the trope of sexual reward for Edward's effort on two fronts; Lily is his sister, and he doesn't seem oriented toward heterosexual reward anyway. Also, any family member has inherent value to normal people.
She doesn't have to be "helpless", she can fight and perhaps injure her captors. I love the little girl kidnapped in Along Came A Spider, she actually manages to escape, freeing herself and then repeatedly injuring herself loosening boards but continuing her efforts despite this. Although she would have been caught if the hero did not show up in time; I was impressed the writers did not make that little girl just a damsel in distress waiting for a white knight.
Do something similar. A stereotype is a collection of traits, you can break it by letting Lily play against type. Heck, you might make it clear that given another hour or two, she might not have needed Edward to save her at all.
This is a matter of opinion; personally I don't find it sexist. People have genders, and sexual orientations, and they have to mix.
We stray into sexism when we pile up too many tropes. In your case, you avoid the trope of sexual reward for Edward's effort on two fronts; Lily is his sister, and he doesn't seem oriented toward heterosexual reward anyway. Also, any family member has inherent value to normal people.
She doesn't have to be "helpless", she can fight and perhaps injure her captors. I love the little girl kidnapped in Along Came A Spider, she actually manages to escape, freeing herself and then repeatedly injuring herself loosening boards but continuing her efforts despite this. Although she would have been caught if the hero did not show up in time; I was impressed the writers did not make that little girl just a damsel in distress waiting for a white knight.
Do something similar. A stereotype is a collection of traits, you can break it by letting Lily play against type. Heck, you might make it clear that given another hour or two, she might not have needed Edward to save her at all.
answered 2 days ago
AmadeusAmadeus
48.2k361153
48.2k361153
68
I've seen people say that if the captured female character could be replaced with a valuable heirloom vase, it's a bad narrative. Sexist, maybe, but at the very minimum, bad writing.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
Your comment also reminded me of the plot of Dishonored, which is entirely about rescuing a little girl; after finding her, it's clear she's been causing as much trouble as she can, and manages to get herself through a dangerous city no problem, once she's freed.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
In the film Commando (80s Schwarzenegger action film) the kidnapped little girl attempts to make her own escape and even gets out of the room they are holding her in. That actually makes the difference in timing as the bad guys come to get her and her actions delay them just enough. Even that little twist is a nice touch.
– Tim B
2 days ago
11
@Stilez It is not a copout. We are talking about entertainment and fiction and Misogyny, all that matters is what the audience perceives about a female victim. Making her proactive defeats the audience perception of misogyny. It doesn't have to pass a rigorous test in a court of law, it has to appeal to the audience, of males and females, that the female is not just waiting on a male but actively trying to do something about her situation, thinking and taking risks. Then even the males in the audience can sympathize and admire her; because they could also need rescue from the same situation.
– Amadeus
yesterday
11
@Stilez it is not misogyny for character A to rescue character B. It is not misogyny if character B is overwhelmed by forces he/she cannot defeat alone. If I write about Edward aiming to save his brother Billy from kidnappers, that is not automatically a better story than Edward aiming to save his sister Lily. In either case, Edward can succeed without diminishing the agency of Billy, or Lily. You are seeing automatic misogyny where none need exist; Neither sibling is weak for being outgunned. I think you are being sexist thinking the stories differ just because of the victim's gender.
– Amadeus
yesterday
|
show 15 more comments
68
I've seen people say that if the captured female character could be replaced with a valuable heirloom vase, it's a bad narrative. Sexist, maybe, but at the very minimum, bad writing.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
Your comment also reminded me of the plot of Dishonored, which is entirely about rescuing a little girl; after finding her, it's clear she's been causing as much trouble as she can, and manages to get herself through a dangerous city no problem, once she's freed.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
In the film Commando (80s Schwarzenegger action film) the kidnapped little girl attempts to make her own escape and even gets out of the room they are holding her in. That actually makes the difference in timing as the bad guys come to get her and her actions delay them just enough. Even that little twist is a nice touch.
– Tim B
2 days ago
11
@Stilez It is not a copout. We are talking about entertainment and fiction and Misogyny, all that matters is what the audience perceives about a female victim. Making her proactive defeats the audience perception of misogyny. It doesn't have to pass a rigorous test in a court of law, it has to appeal to the audience, of males and females, that the female is not just waiting on a male but actively trying to do something about her situation, thinking and taking risks. Then even the males in the audience can sympathize and admire her; because they could also need rescue from the same situation.
– Amadeus
yesterday
11
@Stilez it is not misogyny for character A to rescue character B. It is not misogyny if character B is overwhelmed by forces he/she cannot defeat alone. If I write about Edward aiming to save his brother Billy from kidnappers, that is not automatically a better story than Edward aiming to save his sister Lily. In either case, Edward can succeed without diminishing the agency of Billy, or Lily. You are seeing automatic misogyny where none need exist; Neither sibling is weak for being outgunned. I think you are being sexist thinking the stories differ just because of the victim's gender.
– Amadeus
yesterday
68
68
I've seen people say that if the captured female character could be replaced with a valuable heirloom vase, it's a bad narrative. Sexist, maybe, but at the very minimum, bad writing.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
I've seen people say that if the captured female character could be replaced with a valuable heirloom vase, it's a bad narrative. Sexist, maybe, but at the very minimum, bad writing.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
11
Your comment also reminded me of the plot of Dishonored, which is entirely about rescuing a little girl; after finding her, it's clear she's been causing as much trouble as she can, and manages to get herself through a dangerous city no problem, once she's freed.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
Your comment also reminded me of the plot of Dishonored, which is entirely about rescuing a little girl; after finding her, it's clear she's been causing as much trouble as she can, and manages to get herself through a dangerous city no problem, once she's freed.
– L.S. Cooper
2 days ago
11
11
In the film Commando (80s Schwarzenegger action film) the kidnapped little girl attempts to make her own escape and even gets out of the room they are holding her in. That actually makes the difference in timing as the bad guys come to get her and her actions delay them just enough. Even that little twist is a nice touch.
– Tim B
2 days ago
In the film Commando (80s Schwarzenegger action film) the kidnapped little girl attempts to make her own escape and even gets out of the room they are holding her in. That actually makes the difference in timing as the bad guys come to get her and her actions delay them just enough. Even that little twist is a nice touch.
– Tim B
2 days ago
11
11
@Stilez It is not a copout. We are talking about entertainment and fiction and Misogyny, all that matters is what the audience perceives about a female victim. Making her proactive defeats the audience perception of misogyny. It doesn't have to pass a rigorous test in a court of law, it has to appeal to the audience, of males and females, that the female is not just waiting on a male but actively trying to do something about her situation, thinking and taking risks. Then even the males in the audience can sympathize and admire her; because they could also need rescue from the same situation.
– Amadeus
yesterday
@Stilez It is not a copout. We are talking about entertainment and fiction and Misogyny, all that matters is what the audience perceives about a female victim. Making her proactive defeats the audience perception of misogyny. It doesn't have to pass a rigorous test in a court of law, it has to appeal to the audience, of males and females, that the female is not just waiting on a male but actively trying to do something about her situation, thinking and taking risks. Then even the males in the audience can sympathize and admire her; because they could also need rescue from the same situation.
– Amadeus
yesterday
11
11
@Stilez it is not misogyny for character A to rescue character B. It is not misogyny if character B is overwhelmed by forces he/she cannot defeat alone. If I write about Edward aiming to save his brother Billy from kidnappers, that is not automatically a better story than Edward aiming to save his sister Lily. In either case, Edward can succeed without diminishing the agency of Billy, or Lily. You are seeing automatic misogyny where none need exist; Neither sibling is weak for being outgunned. I think you are being sexist thinking the stories differ just because of the victim's gender.
– Amadeus
yesterday
@Stilez it is not misogyny for character A to rescue character B. It is not misogyny if character B is overwhelmed by forces he/she cannot defeat alone. If I write about Edward aiming to save his brother Billy from kidnappers, that is not automatically a better story than Edward aiming to save his sister Lily. In either case, Edward can succeed without diminishing the agency of Billy, or Lily. You are seeing automatic misogyny where none need exist; Neither sibling is weak for being outgunned. I think you are being sexist thinking the stories differ just because of the victim's gender.
– Amadeus
yesterday
|
show 15 more comments
In general, if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. The most important thing here is to give the character her own agency, try to avoid the trap of the "strong female character" where she has no significant flaws, and make damn sure she isn't just used to create "manpain".
S. L. Huang explains "manpain" very well in this blog post.
There's a fan term called “manpain” that fascinates me. It refers to the phenomenon of a media property that excessively and self-centeredly focuses on a male character's angst after tragic events happen to the people around him.
I would also advise that you make sure there's a good reason the kidnappers take his sister instead of him, instead of the usual ransom/sexist/"we're gonna hurt him by hurting his sister!" (again, manpain) reasoning. Perhaps a mix-up, or--since this is the digital world and the kidnappers may not necessarily know the real-life identity of their target--the kidnappers thought Lily was the infamous "hax0rb4be".
Good luck!
New contributor
7
See also: Women in Refrigerators.
– F1Krazy
2 days ago
1
I particularly like this answer, as it neatly explains why the vast amount of Romance genre literature written largely by women for women with plots just like this isn't "misogynistic".
– T.E.D.
yesterday
4
@T.E.D.: Except it doesn't. Internalized misogyny is a thing.
– R..
yesterday
1
@JohnK Mainly, it's been done to death. Contemporary works do it a lot less than before, so the trope will probably have a revival in a decade or two :) But even in principle, characters should usually have some characterisation; placing characters in the story with no characterisation is a waste - and once you start adding characterisation, it quickly becomes annoying that this interesting character just sits on their ass doing nothing - even if it's part of the characterisation. Why have boring or worthless characters with less character than One Ring? Just cut them out.
– Luaan
19 hours ago
5
@JohnK When you are a member of the sex that generally gets to be the McGuffin, it gets incredibly wearing. And it has real world consequences, the more men and women, girls and boys are presented with narratives of active males and passive females, the more they think that's how it has to be. Where does that leave the developing minds who don't feel they fit the expectations society has for their sex?
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
In general, if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. The most important thing here is to give the character her own agency, try to avoid the trap of the "strong female character" where she has no significant flaws, and make damn sure she isn't just used to create "manpain".
S. L. Huang explains "manpain" very well in this blog post.
There's a fan term called “manpain” that fascinates me. It refers to the phenomenon of a media property that excessively and self-centeredly focuses on a male character's angst after tragic events happen to the people around him.
I would also advise that you make sure there's a good reason the kidnappers take his sister instead of him, instead of the usual ransom/sexist/"we're gonna hurt him by hurting his sister!" (again, manpain) reasoning. Perhaps a mix-up, or--since this is the digital world and the kidnappers may not necessarily know the real-life identity of their target--the kidnappers thought Lily was the infamous "hax0rb4be".
Good luck!
New contributor
7
See also: Women in Refrigerators.
– F1Krazy
2 days ago
1
I particularly like this answer, as it neatly explains why the vast amount of Romance genre literature written largely by women for women with plots just like this isn't "misogynistic".
– T.E.D.
yesterday
4
@T.E.D.: Except it doesn't. Internalized misogyny is a thing.
– R..
yesterday
1
@JohnK Mainly, it's been done to death. Contemporary works do it a lot less than before, so the trope will probably have a revival in a decade or two :) But even in principle, characters should usually have some characterisation; placing characters in the story with no characterisation is a waste - and once you start adding characterisation, it quickly becomes annoying that this interesting character just sits on their ass doing nothing - even if it's part of the characterisation. Why have boring or worthless characters with less character than One Ring? Just cut them out.
– Luaan
19 hours ago
5
@JohnK When you are a member of the sex that generally gets to be the McGuffin, it gets incredibly wearing. And it has real world consequences, the more men and women, girls and boys are presented with narratives of active males and passive females, the more they think that's how it has to be. Where does that leave the developing minds who don't feel they fit the expectations society has for their sex?
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
In general, if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. The most important thing here is to give the character her own agency, try to avoid the trap of the "strong female character" where she has no significant flaws, and make damn sure she isn't just used to create "manpain".
S. L. Huang explains "manpain" very well in this blog post.
There's a fan term called “manpain” that fascinates me. It refers to the phenomenon of a media property that excessively and self-centeredly focuses on a male character's angst after tragic events happen to the people around him.
I would also advise that you make sure there's a good reason the kidnappers take his sister instead of him, instead of the usual ransom/sexist/"we're gonna hurt him by hurting his sister!" (again, manpain) reasoning. Perhaps a mix-up, or--since this is the digital world and the kidnappers may not necessarily know the real-life identity of their target--the kidnappers thought Lily was the infamous "hax0rb4be".
Good luck!
New contributor
In general, if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. The most important thing here is to give the character her own agency, try to avoid the trap of the "strong female character" where she has no significant flaws, and make damn sure she isn't just used to create "manpain".
S. L. Huang explains "manpain" very well in this blog post.
There's a fan term called “manpain” that fascinates me. It refers to the phenomenon of a media property that excessively and self-centeredly focuses on a male character's angst after tragic events happen to the people around him.
I would also advise that you make sure there's a good reason the kidnappers take his sister instead of him, instead of the usual ransom/sexist/"we're gonna hurt him by hurting his sister!" (again, manpain) reasoning. Perhaps a mix-up, or--since this is the digital world and the kidnappers may not necessarily know the real-life identity of their target--the kidnappers thought Lily was the infamous "hax0rb4be".
Good luck!
New contributor
edited 2 days ago
Galastel
27.5k578149
27.5k578149
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
AninOninAninOnin
51112
51112
New contributor
New contributor
7
See also: Women in Refrigerators.
– F1Krazy
2 days ago
1
I particularly like this answer, as it neatly explains why the vast amount of Romance genre literature written largely by women for women with plots just like this isn't "misogynistic".
– T.E.D.
yesterday
4
@T.E.D.: Except it doesn't. Internalized misogyny is a thing.
– R..
yesterday
1
@JohnK Mainly, it's been done to death. Contemporary works do it a lot less than before, so the trope will probably have a revival in a decade or two :) But even in principle, characters should usually have some characterisation; placing characters in the story with no characterisation is a waste - and once you start adding characterisation, it quickly becomes annoying that this interesting character just sits on their ass doing nothing - even if it's part of the characterisation. Why have boring or worthless characters with less character than One Ring? Just cut them out.
– Luaan
19 hours ago
5
@JohnK When you are a member of the sex that generally gets to be the McGuffin, it gets incredibly wearing. And it has real world consequences, the more men and women, girls and boys are presented with narratives of active males and passive females, the more they think that's how it has to be. Where does that leave the developing minds who don't feel they fit the expectations society has for their sex?
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
7
See also: Women in Refrigerators.
– F1Krazy
2 days ago
1
I particularly like this answer, as it neatly explains why the vast amount of Romance genre literature written largely by women for women with plots just like this isn't "misogynistic".
– T.E.D.
yesterday
4
@T.E.D.: Except it doesn't. Internalized misogyny is a thing.
– R..
yesterday
1
@JohnK Mainly, it's been done to death. Contemporary works do it a lot less than before, so the trope will probably have a revival in a decade or two :) But even in principle, characters should usually have some characterisation; placing characters in the story with no characterisation is a waste - and once you start adding characterisation, it quickly becomes annoying that this interesting character just sits on their ass doing nothing - even if it's part of the characterisation. Why have boring or worthless characters with less character than One Ring? Just cut them out.
– Luaan
19 hours ago
5
@JohnK When you are a member of the sex that generally gets to be the McGuffin, it gets incredibly wearing. And it has real world consequences, the more men and women, girls and boys are presented with narratives of active males and passive females, the more they think that's how it has to be. Where does that leave the developing minds who don't feel they fit the expectations society has for their sex?
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
7
7
See also: Women in Refrigerators.
– F1Krazy
2 days ago
See also: Women in Refrigerators.
– F1Krazy
2 days ago
1
1
I particularly like this answer, as it neatly explains why the vast amount of Romance genre literature written largely by women for women with plots just like this isn't "misogynistic".
– T.E.D.
yesterday
I particularly like this answer, as it neatly explains why the vast amount of Romance genre literature written largely by women for women with plots just like this isn't "misogynistic".
– T.E.D.
yesterday
4
4
@T.E.D.: Except it doesn't. Internalized misogyny is a thing.
– R..
yesterday
@T.E.D.: Except it doesn't. Internalized misogyny is a thing.
– R..
yesterday
1
1
@JohnK Mainly, it's been done to death. Contemporary works do it a lot less than before, so the trope will probably have a revival in a decade or two :) But even in principle, characters should usually have some characterisation; placing characters in the story with no characterisation is a waste - and once you start adding characterisation, it quickly becomes annoying that this interesting character just sits on their ass doing nothing - even if it's part of the characterisation. Why have boring or worthless characters with less character than One Ring? Just cut them out.
– Luaan
19 hours ago
@JohnK Mainly, it's been done to death. Contemporary works do it a lot less than before, so the trope will probably have a revival in a decade or two :) But even in principle, characters should usually have some characterisation; placing characters in the story with no characterisation is a waste - and once you start adding characterisation, it quickly becomes annoying that this interesting character just sits on their ass doing nothing - even if it's part of the characterisation. Why have boring or worthless characters with less character than One Ring? Just cut them out.
– Luaan
19 hours ago
5
5
@JohnK When you are a member of the sex that generally gets to be the McGuffin, it gets incredibly wearing. And it has real world consequences, the more men and women, girls and boys are presented with narratives of active males and passive females, the more they think that's how it has to be. Where does that leave the developing minds who don't feel they fit the expectations society has for their sex?
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
@JohnK When you are a member of the sex that generally gets to be the McGuffin, it gets incredibly wearing. And it has real world consequences, the more men and women, girls and boys are presented with narratives of active males and passive females, the more they think that's how it has to be. Where does that leave the developing minds who don't feel they fit the expectations society has for their sex?
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Answer: It depends on the execution.
What makes this misogyny is if the sister is in the story (solely) to allow Edward to be a hero. If she is a throwaway character who serves only to provide a prop for him, then your execution is flawed and in that case, yes it is misogynistic.
But, if the sister is a hero in her own right, perhaps facilitating Edward's efforts earlier using skills that she has and he does not, or perhaps playing a required role in the escape that Edward cannot or does not play, (perhaps he is wounded or some such thing, perhaps she can pick locks, who knows...), then no.
If she has her own life within the novel, a personal goal and conflict, and if she is fully realized and participates uniquely in the story arc, you will be okay.
25
It sounds like you're saying any use of a woman as a macguffin is misogynistic, which I definitely don't agree with. It might be lazy writing, but I don't see how using a woman is significantly different than, say, a ring. It only becomes misogynistic if the fact she is a woman is the reason she is the macguffin, rather than being an insignificant attribute. But, this is probably too subjective to be definitive on.
– Benubird
2 days ago
2
I kind of see where you're coming from, and I partly agree, but I feel like this is mostly a problem with recurring or central characters. When you've got a regular character whose only role is to be a helpless woman, it strays into stereotype. I feel like this isn't so much of an issue with one-off characters, because readers get a different message - think about how often superheroes save people from burning buildings or whatnot.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
16
@Benubird - I get what you're saying, and I suppose you're strictly right, but I would say that it's not just bad writing, but unrealistic and unfair to the character to write them with no more personality than an object. And since it reinforces societal stereotypes without a a good reason, it's probably best avoided. For that matter, I don't think it's advisable to write a major non-female character who's got as much characterization as an object, even if it's probably not as stereotypical.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
12
Not just women, but as Aninonin says, ... if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. In my view, every villain, every loyal friend, every woman and man... should have some reason to be in the story. Fine, you can have stock warriors or what have you, but good books are good for a reason--and rarely have poorly-fleshed characters. In the original question, the sister is introduced as someone to be saved. That's it. I don't believe she was even given a name in the question. (& nothing re: stereotypes was asked.)
– DPT
2 days ago
4
Not just helpless, but at some point she has to lose some of her clothing and venture into the dark corridor on her own. I've never seen a male hero do that. She might even twist her ankle and the hero has to pick her up and carry her. Ugh.
– RedSonja
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
Answer: It depends on the execution.
What makes this misogyny is if the sister is in the story (solely) to allow Edward to be a hero. If she is a throwaway character who serves only to provide a prop for him, then your execution is flawed and in that case, yes it is misogynistic.
But, if the sister is a hero in her own right, perhaps facilitating Edward's efforts earlier using skills that she has and he does not, or perhaps playing a required role in the escape that Edward cannot or does not play, (perhaps he is wounded or some such thing, perhaps she can pick locks, who knows...), then no.
If she has her own life within the novel, a personal goal and conflict, and if she is fully realized and participates uniquely in the story arc, you will be okay.
25
It sounds like you're saying any use of a woman as a macguffin is misogynistic, which I definitely don't agree with. It might be lazy writing, but I don't see how using a woman is significantly different than, say, a ring. It only becomes misogynistic if the fact she is a woman is the reason she is the macguffin, rather than being an insignificant attribute. But, this is probably too subjective to be definitive on.
– Benubird
2 days ago
2
I kind of see where you're coming from, and I partly agree, but I feel like this is mostly a problem with recurring or central characters. When you've got a regular character whose only role is to be a helpless woman, it strays into stereotype. I feel like this isn't so much of an issue with one-off characters, because readers get a different message - think about how often superheroes save people from burning buildings or whatnot.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
16
@Benubird - I get what you're saying, and I suppose you're strictly right, but I would say that it's not just bad writing, but unrealistic and unfair to the character to write them with no more personality than an object. And since it reinforces societal stereotypes without a a good reason, it's probably best avoided. For that matter, I don't think it's advisable to write a major non-female character who's got as much characterization as an object, even if it's probably not as stereotypical.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
12
Not just women, but as Aninonin says, ... if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. In my view, every villain, every loyal friend, every woman and man... should have some reason to be in the story. Fine, you can have stock warriors or what have you, but good books are good for a reason--and rarely have poorly-fleshed characters. In the original question, the sister is introduced as someone to be saved. That's it. I don't believe she was even given a name in the question. (& nothing re: stereotypes was asked.)
– DPT
2 days ago
4
Not just helpless, but at some point she has to lose some of her clothing and venture into the dark corridor on her own. I've never seen a male hero do that. She might even twist her ankle and the hero has to pick her up and carry her. Ugh.
– RedSonja
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
Answer: It depends on the execution.
What makes this misogyny is if the sister is in the story (solely) to allow Edward to be a hero. If she is a throwaway character who serves only to provide a prop for him, then your execution is flawed and in that case, yes it is misogynistic.
But, if the sister is a hero in her own right, perhaps facilitating Edward's efforts earlier using skills that she has and he does not, or perhaps playing a required role in the escape that Edward cannot or does not play, (perhaps he is wounded or some such thing, perhaps she can pick locks, who knows...), then no.
If she has her own life within the novel, a personal goal and conflict, and if she is fully realized and participates uniquely in the story arc, you will be okay.
Answer: It depends on the execution.
What makes this misogyny is if the sister is in the story (solely) to allow Edward to be a hero. If she is a throwaway character who serves only to provide a prop for him, then your execution is flawed and in that case, yes it is misogynistic.
But, if the sister is a hero in her own right, perhaps facilitating Edward's efforts earlier using skills that she has and he does not, or perhaps playing a required role in the escape that Edward cannot or does not play, (perhaps he is wounded or some such thing, perhaps she can pick locks, who knows...), then no.
If she has her own life within the novel, a personal goal and conflict, and if she is fully realized and participates uniquely in the story arc, you will be okay.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
DPTDPT
13.5k22780
13.5k22780
25
It sounds like you're saying any use of a woman as a macguffin is misogynistic, which I definitely don't agree with. It might be lazy writing, but I don't see how using a woman is significantly different than, say, a ring. It only becomes misogynistic if the fact she is a woman is the reason she is the macguffin, rather than being an insignificant attribute. But, this is probably too subjective to be definitive on.
– Benubird
2 days ago
2
I kind of see where you're coming from, and I partly agree, but I feel like this is mostly a problem with recurring or central characters. When you've got a regular character whose only role is to be a helpless woman, it strays into stereotype. I feel like this isn't so much of an issue with one-off characters, because readers get a different message - think about how often superheroes save people from burning buildings or whatnot.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
16
@Benubird - I get what you're saying, and I suppose you're strictly right, but I would say that it's not just bad writing, but unrealistic and unfair to the character to write them with no more personality than an object. And since it reinforces societal stereotypes without a a good reason, it's probably best avoided. For that matter, I don't think it's advisable to write a major non-female character who's got as much characterization as an object, even if it's probably not as stereotypical.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
12
Not just women, but as Aninonin says, ... if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. In my view, every villain, every loyal friend, every woman and man... should have some reason to be in the story. Fine, you can have stock warriors or what have you, but good books are good for a reason--and rarely have poorly-fleshed characters. In the original question, the sister is introduced as someone to be saved. That's it. I don't believe she was even given a name in the question. (& nothing re: stereotypes was asked.)
– DPT
2 days ago
4
Not just helpless, but at some point she has to lose some of her clothing and venture into the dark corridor on her own. I've never seen a male hero do that. She might even twist her ankle and the hero has to pick her up and carry her. Ugh.
– RedSonja
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
25
It sounds like you're saying any use of a woman as a macguffin is misogynistic, which I definitely don't agree with. It might be lazy writing, but I don't see how using a woman is significantly different than, say, a ring. It only becomes misogynistic if the fact she is a woman is the reason she is the macguffin, rather than being an insignificant attribute. But, this is probably too subjective to be definitive on.
– Benubird
2 days ago
2
I kind of see where you're coming from, and I partly agree, but I feel like this is mostly a problem with recurring or central characters. When you've got a regular character whose only role is to be a helpless woman, it strays into stereotype. I feel like this isn't so much of an issue with one-off characters, because readers get a different message - think about how often superheroes save people from burning buildings or whatnot.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
16
@Benubird - I get what you're saying, and I suppose you're strictly right, but I would say that it's not just bad writing, but unrealistic and unfair to the character to write them with no more personality than an object. And since it reinforces societal stereotypes without a a good reason, it's probably best avoided. For that matter, I don't think it's advisable to write a major non-female character who's got as much characterization as an object, even if it's probably not as stereotypical.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
12
Not just women, but as Aninonin says, ... if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. In my view, every villain, every loyal friend, every woman and man... should have some reason to be in the story. Fine, you can have stock warriors or what have you, but good books are good for a reason--and rarely have poorly-fleshed characters. In the original question, the sister is introduced as someone to be saved. That's it. I don't believe she was even given a name in the question. (& nothing re: stereotypes was asked.)
– DPT
2 days ago
4
Not just helpless, but at some point she has to lose some of her clothing and venture into the dark corridor on her own. I've never seen a male hero do that. She might even twist her ankle and the hero has to pick her up and carry her. Ugh.
– RedSonja
yesterday
25
25
It sounds like you're saying any use of a woman as a macguffin is misogynistic, which I definitely don't agree with. It might be lazy writing, but I don't see how using a woman is significantly different than, say, a ring. It only becomes misogynistic if the fact she is a woman is the reason she is the macguffin, rather than being an insignificant attribute. But, this is probably too subjective to be definitive on.
– Benubird
2 days ago
It sounds like you're saying any use of a woman as a macguffin is misogynistic, which I definitely don't agree with. It might be lazy writing, but I don't see how using a woman is significantly different than, say, a ring. It only becomes misogynistic if the fact she is a woman is the reason she is the macguffin, rather than being an insignificant attribute. But, this is probably too subjective to be definitive on.
– Benubird
2 days ago
2
2
I kind of see where you're coming from, and I partly agree, but I feel like this is mostly a problem with recurring or central characters. When you've got a regular character whose only role is to be a helpless woman, it strays into stereotype. I feel like this isn't so much of an issue with one-off characters, because readers get a different message - think about how often superheroes save people from burning buildings or whatnot.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
I kind of see where you're coming from, and I partly agree, but I feel like this is mostly a problem with recurring or central characters. When you've got a regular character whose only role is to be a helpless woman, it strays into stereotype. I feel like this isn't so much of an issue with one-off characters, because readers get a different message - think about how often superheroes save people from burning buildings or whatnot.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
16
16
@Benubird - I get what you're saying, and I suppose you're strictly right, but I would say that it's not just bad writing, but unrealistic and unfair to the character to write them with no more personality than an object. And since it reinforces societal stereotypes without a a good reason, it's probably best avoided. For that matter, I don't think it's advisable to write a major non-female character who's got as much characterization as an object, even if it's probably not as stereotypical.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
@Benubird - I get what you're saying, and I suppose you're strictly right, but I would say that it's not just bad writing, but unrealistic and unfair to the character to write them with no more personality than an object. And since it reinforces societal stereotypes without a a good reason, it's probably best avoided. For that matter, I don't think it's advisable to write a major non-female character who's got as much characterization as an object, even if it's probably not as stereotypical.
– Obie 2.0
2 days ago
12
12
Not just women, but as Aninonin says, ... if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. In my view, every villain, every loyal friend, every woman and man... should have some reason to be in the story. Fine, you can have stock warriors or what have you, but good books are good for a reason--and rarely have poorly-fleshed characters. In the original question, the sister is introduced as someone to be saved. That's it. I don't believe she was even given a name in the question. (& nothing re: stereotypes was asked.)
– DPT
2 days ago
Not just women, but as Aninonin says, ... if you can swap out a woman for a precious object and the story remains mostly unchanged, you should attempt a rewrite. In my view, every villain, every loyal friend, every woman and man... should have some reason to be in the story. Fine, you can have stock warriors or what have you, but good books are good for a reason--and rarely have poorly-fleshed characters. In the original question, the sister is introduced as someone to be saved. That's it. I don't believe she was even given a name in the question. (& nothing re: stereotypes was asked.)
– DPT
2 days ago
4
4
Not just helpless, but at some point she has to lose some of her clothing and venture into the dark corridor on her own. I've never seen a male hero do that. She might even twist her ankle and the hero has to pick her up and carry her. Ugh.
– RedSonja
yesterday
Not just helpless, but at some point she has to lose some of her clothing and venture into the dark corridor on her own. I've never seen a male hero do that. She might even twist her ankle and the hero has to pick her up and carry her. Ugh.
– RedSonja
yesterday
|
show 10 more comments
Although your question skipped a lot of detail, what is there suggests how misogynism could enter through the cracks.
Let's look at your summary, and not unreasonably, assume that what you focus on in it, reflects how you've come to this storyline and where your emphasis and attention is - what matters to you. The point being, what doesn't matter to an author, what they don't love as much or put as much insight into - those often become the stereotypes, filled in by default, because it's quick and easy and their mind wasn't on it anyway.
What we learn about Edward: He's a spy. He works for an organisation. The organisation is fleshed out enough to have a name and goals. What he does for them. He has a sister. Her name. Where she lives. He has an ally in the rescue. He has a maybe love interest. The maybe love interest's name.
What we learn about Lily: Absolutely nothing. (She is a woman living with her brother, at most)
You're in danger of stereotypes - and many stereotypes in this narrative are sexist - simply because it doesn't seem that Lily has any intrinsic interest as a person to you. She's a foil, a trigger for the actions of someone else far more important. She can be filled in by simplified routine outline because Lily isn't a character, she's an object - she serves a role, she isn't presented as being of deep interest as a person.
How to avoid mysogynism? Do the opposite. Flesh her out as a person, as if she is the real hero or centre of focus - which is a good way to ensure you write all characters well. Love each of them. Care about each. Understand each.
Think hard about her, as you would about Edward. Is she as proactive as her brother? Does she just passively listen and think with feminine adoration "how clever he is!" (I hope not!) Does she agree or not, has she picked up things from him or not, what has led her to live with him, what is her inner life like? These and many more. Think about her life, her strong views, her goals and perspectives, where she's been and where she's going, and all that binds it together and makes Lily really interesting, enough that you could write a story about her, not him.
In Harry Potter, as much attention is given to the personalities of the hero's opponents, as to the hero himself - more in the case of some like Snape. Side characters are fleshed out in depth - the caring Molly who unexoectedly leaps to her daughters defense shouting "You bitch!", even the father of the antagonist, his wife, her sister. All lovingly dwelt on before fingers hit keys - and it shows. Ditto most good novels. Do right by Lily, and give her, her own life that's led to this point, not just an object or foil with a light touch of veneer, try to write her story, in this, not just the hero's, and she'll do right by you as a solid balanced character too.
6
I wish I could upvote this more. It's important to remember tropes are only tools. The damsel-in-distress isn't sexist. It's not not sexist either. What makes it sexist or not is whether the damsel is a mere plot device, an object of conquest, a goal, or if she is indeed a real character.
– AmiralPatate
yesterday
In Harry Potter, the actual opponents are pretty bad too. You can clearly see the contrast between the characterisation of Lucius (boo, bad guy) and Severus (yay, a hidden hero!). Draco's characterisation is all about "hate mudbloods, being a bastard" - we only get a glimpse into his character when he switches side at the very end. But HP is still a good example in character design - the characters that aren't just foils are fleshed out, consistent and they make sense. The foils are still just foils, which is a missed opportunity, but that's common in children's books.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
Although your question skipped a lot of detail, what is there suggests how misogynism could enter through the cracks.
Let's look at your summary, and not unreasonably, assume that what you focus on in it, reflects how you've come to this storyline and where your emphasis and attention is - what matters to you. The point being, what doesn't matter to an author, what they don't love as much or put as much insight into - those often become the stereotypes, filled in by default, because it's quick and easy and their mind wasn't on it anyway.
What we learn about Edward: He's a spy. He works for an organisation. The organisation is fleshed out enough to have a name and goals. What he does for them. He has a sister. Her name. Where she lives. He has an ally in the rescue. He has a maybe love interest. The maybe love interest's name.
What we learn about Lily: Absolutely nothing. (She is a woman living with her brother, at most)
You're in danger of stereotypes - and many stereotypes in this narrative are sexist - simply because it doesn't seem that Lily has any intrinsic interest as a person to you. She's a foil, a trigger for the actions of someone else far more important. She can be filled in by simplified routine outline because Lily isn't a character, she's an object - she serves a role, she isn't presented as being of deep interest as a person.
How to avoid mysogynism? Do the opposite. Flesh her out as a person, as if she is the real hero or centre of focus - which is a good way to ensure you write all characters well. Love each of them. Care about each. Understand each.
Think hard about her, as you would about Edward. Is she as proactive as her brother? Does she just passively listen and think with feminine adoration "how clever he is!" (I hope not!) Does she agree or not, has she picked up things from him or not, what has led her to live with him, what is her inner life like? These and many more. Think about her life, her strong views, her goals and perspectives, where she's been and where she's going, and all that binds it together and makes Lily really interesting, enough that you could write a story about her, not him.
In Harry Potter, as much attention is given to the personalities of the hero's opponents, as to the hero himself - more in the case of some like Snape. Side characters are fleshed out in depth - the caring Molly who unexoectedly leaps to her daughters defense shouting "You bitch!", even the father of the antagonist, his wife, her sister. All lovingly dwelt on before fingers hit keys - and it shows. Ditto most good novels. Do right by Lily, and give her, her own life that's led to this point, not just an object or foil with a light touch of veneer, try to write her story, in this, not just the hero's, and she'll do right by you as a solid balanced character too.
6
I wish I could upvote this more. It's important to remember tropes are only tools. The damsel-in-distress isn't sexist. It's not not sexist either. What makes it sexist or not is whether the damsel is a mere plot device, an object of conquest, a goal, or if she is indeed a real character.
– AmiralPatate
yesterday
In Harry Potter, the actual opponents are pretty bad too. You can clearly see the contrast between the characterisation of Lucius (boo, bad guy) and Severus (yay, a hidden hero!). Draco's characterisation is all about "hate mudbloods, being a bastard" - we only get a glimpse into his character when he switches side at the very end. But HP is still a good example in character design - the characters that aren't just foils are fleshed out, consistent and they make sense. The foils are still just foils, which is a missed opportunity, but that's common in children's books.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
Although your question skipped a lot of detail, what is there suggests how misogynism could enter through the cracks.
Let's look at your summary, and not unreasonably, assume that what you focus on in it, reflects how you've come to this storyline and where your emphasis and attention is - what matters to you. The point being, what doesn't matter to an author, what they don't love as much or put as much insight into - those often become the stereotypes, filled in by default, because it's quick and easy and their mind wasn't on it anyway.
What we learn about Edward: He's a spy. He works for an organisation. The organisation is fleshed out enough to have a name and goals. What he does for them. He has a sister. Her name. Where she lives. He has an ally in the rescue. He has a maybe love interest. The maybe love interest's name.
What we learn about Lily: Absolutely nothing. (She is a woman living with her brother, at most)
You're in danger of stereotypes - and many stereotypes in this narrative are sexist - simply because it doesn't seem that Lily has any intrinsic interest as a person to you. She's a foil, a trigger for the actions of someone else far more important. She can be filled in by simplified routine outline because Lily isn't a character, she's an object - she serves a role, she isn't presented as being of deep interest as a person.
How to avoid mysogynism? Do the opposite. Flesh her out as a person, as if she is the real hero or centre of focus - which is a good way to ensure you write all characters well. Love each of them. Care about each. Understand each.
Think hard about her, as you would about Edward. Is she as proactive as her brother? Does she just passively listen and think with feminine adoration "how clever he is!" (I hope not!) Does she agree or not, has she picked up things from him or not, what has led her to live with him, what is her inner life like? These and many more. Think about her life, her strong views, her goals and perspectives, where she's been and where she's going, and all that binds it together and makes Lily really interesting, enough that you could write a story about her, not him.
In Harry Potter, as much attention is given to the personalities of the hero's opponents, as to the hero himself - more in the case of some like Snape. Side characters are fleshed out in depth - the caring Molly who unexoectedly leaps to her daughters defense shouting "You bitch!", even the father of the antagonist, his wife, her sister. All lovingly dwelt on before fingers hit keys - and it shows. Ditto most good novels. Do right by Lily, and give her, her own life that's led to this point, not just an object or foil with a light touch of veneer, try to write her story, in this, not just the hero's, and she'll do right by you as a solid balanced character too.
Although your question skipped a lot of detail, what is there suggests how misogynism could enter through the cracks.
Let's look at your summary, and not unreasonably, assume that what you focus on in it, reflects how you've come to this storyline and where your emphasis and attention is - what matters to you. The point being, what doesn't matter to an author, what they don't love as much or put as much insight into - those often become the stereotypes, filled in by default, because it's quick and easy and their mind wasn't on it anyway.
What we learn about Edward: He's a spy. He works for an organisation. The organisation is fleshed out enough to have a name and goals. What he does for them. He has a sister. Her name. Where she lives. He has an ally in the rescue. He has a maybe love interest. The maybe love interest's name.
What we learn about Lily: Absolutely nothing. (She is a woman living with her brother, at most)
You're in danger of stereotypes - and many stereotypes in this narrative are sexist - simply because it doesn't seem that Lily has any intrinsic interest as a person to you. She's a foil, a trigger for the actions of someone else far more important. She can be filled in by simplified routine outline because Lily isn't a character, she's an object - she serves a role, she isn't presented as being of deep interest as a person.
How to avoid mysogynism? Do the opposite. Flesh her out as a person, as if she is the real hero or centre of focus - which is a good way to ensure you write all characters well. Love each of them. Care about each. Understand each.
Think hard about her, as you would about Edward. Is she as proactive as her brother? Does she just passively listen and think with feminine adoration "how clever he is!" (I hope not!) Does she agree or not, has she picked up things from him or not, what has led her to live with him, what is her inner life like? These and many more. Think about her life, her strong views, her goals and perspectives, where she's been and where she's going, and all that binds it together and makes Lily really interesting, enough that you could write a story about her, not him.
In Harry Potter, as much attention is given to the personalities of the hero's opponents, as to the hero himself - more in the case of some like Snape. Side characters are fleshed out in depth - the caring Molly who unexoectedly leaps to her daughters defense shouting "You bitch!", even the father of the antagonist, his wife, her sister. All lovingly dwelt on before fingers hit keys - and it shows. Ditto most good novels. Do right by Lily, and give her, her own life that's led to this point, not just an object or foil with a light touch of veneer, try to write her story, in this, not just the hero's, and she'll do right by you as a solid balanced character too.
edited yesterday
answered 2 days ago
StilezStilez
4447
4447
6
I wish I could upvote this more. It's important to remember tropes are only tools. The damsel-in-distress isn't sexist. It's not not sexist either. What makes it sexist or not is whether the damsel is a mere plot device, an object of conquest, a goal, or if she is indeed a real character.
– AmiralPatate
yesterday
In Harry Potter, the actual opponents are pretty bad too. You can clearly see the contrast between the characterisation of Lucius (boo, bad guy) and Severus (yay, a hidden hero!). Draco's characterisation is all about "hate mudbloods, being a bastard" - we only get a glimpse into his character when he switches side at the very end. But HP is still a good example in character design - the characters that aren't just foils are fleshed out, consistent and they make sense. The foils are still just foils, which is a missed opportunity, but that's common in children's books.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
6
I wish I could upvote this more. It's important to remember tropes are only tools. The damsel-in-distress isn't sexist. It's not not sexist either. What makes it sexist or not is whether the damsel is a mere plot device, an object of conquest, a goal, or if she is indeed a real character.
– AmiralPatate
yesterday
In Harry Potter, the actual opponents are pretty bad too. You can clearly see the contrast between the characterisation of Lucius (boo, bad guy) and Severus (yay, a hidden hero!). Draco's characterisation is all about "hate mudbloods, being a bastard" - we only get a glimpse into his character when he switches side at the very end. But HP is still a good example in character design - the characters that aren't just foils are fleshed out, consistent and they make sense. The foils are still just foils, which is a missed opportunity, but that's common in children's books.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
6
6
I wish I could upvote this more. It's important to remember tropes are only tools. The damsel-in-distress isn't sexist. It's not not sexist either. What makes it sexist or not is whether the damsel is a mere plot device, an object of conquest, a goal, or if she is indeed a real character.
– AmiralPatate
yesterday
I wish I could upvote this more. It's important to remember tropes are only tools. The damsel-in-distress isn't sexist. It's not not sexist either. What makes it sexist or not is whether the damsel is a mere plot device, an object of conquest, a goal, or if she is indeed a real character.
– AmiralPatate
yesterday
In Harry Potter, the actual opponents are pretty bad too. You can clearly see the contrast between the characterisation of Lucius (boo, bad guy) and Severus (yay, a hidden hero!). Draco's characterisation is all about "hate mudbloods, being a bastard" - we only get a glimpse into his character when he switches side at the very end. But HP is still a good example in character design - the characters that aren't just foils are fleshed out, consistent and they make sense. The foils are still just foils, which is a missed opportunity, but that's common in children's books.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
In Harry Potter, the actual opponents are pretty bad too. You can clearly see the contrast between the characterisation of Lucius (boo, bad guy) and Severus (yay, a hidden hero!). Draco's characterisation is all about "hate mudbloods, being a bastard" - we only get a glimpse into his character when he switches side at the very end. But HP is still a good example in character design - the characters that aren't just foils are fleshed out, consistent and they make sense. The foils are still just foils, which is a missed opportunity, but that's common in children's books.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
The scenario is not misogynistic. People need saving--sometimes those people are women. It also doesn't matter whether she "fights back" against her captors. The most realistic scenario of an everyday person being kidnapped by trained professionals is that they're going to sit there and do nothing. They're outnumbered, outmatched, and probably restrained--what are they going to do? What you want to avoid is not misogyny, but bad writing. That is, writing that makes the audience not care what happens.
See, a lot of claimed "misogyny" in media is just bad writing, but the character is a woman. Consider the damsel in distress trope we're talking about here. If a woman is introduced who has no purpose but to be rescued, the question I'm asking isn't "Why does the author hate women?" but "Why do I care what happens to her?" Well, I might care indirectly because the protagonist cares and I (hopefully) care about him, and perhaps in an abstract sense of not wanting bad things to happen to people. But it's going to be a lot more effective if I also care about the woman herself. And that's why it's important to flesh out her character--not anything about her sex. After all, an agender person who has no character other than being rescued by the transman protagonist would be just as uninteresting, albeit considerably less common.
(At this point someone will jump in saying that female characters are more commonly poorly-written than male characters. That's probably true, but also irrelevant. This is your work--what other people do is on them.)
Now don't get me wrong, you can totally go beyond bad writing to do this trope in a misogynistic manner. Probably the most common is a sort of subtle victim-blaming in how the scenario is presented. "Of course she got kidnapped--she's a woman. A man would never be so weak and foolish as to allow himself to be kidnapped, but women, well, they just can't help it." But you don't seem like the kind of person who would write like this, so I wouldn't worry about it much.
Spot on. Although I’d point out to those saying it’s misogynistic if she could be replaced with a heirloom, that the trope can still work even if she never appears. Perhaps the kidnappers found a note saying she just win a cruise and will be out of touch for a month, and then lie. They take the note and at the end he finds it after defeating that bad guys. Or they gloat about it as they kill him, he dies knowing it was all for nought. It’s the story that matters, it can be told badly an infinite number of ways, just as it can be told well in an infinite number of ways.
– jmoreno
5 hours ago
add a comment |
The scenario is not misogynistic. People need saving--sometimes those people are women. It also doesn't matter whether she "fights back" against her captors. The most realistic scenario of an everyday person being kidnapped by trained professionals is that they're going to sit there and do nothing. They're outnumbered, outmatched, and probably restrained--what are they going to do? What you want to avoid is not misogyny, but bad writing. That is, writing that makes the audience not care what happens.
See, a lot of claimed "misogyny" in media is just bad writing, but the character is a woman. Consider the damsel in distress trope we're talking about here. If a woman is introduced who has no purpose but to be rescued, the question I'm asking isn't "Why does the author hate women?" but "Why do I care what happens to her?" Well, I might care indirectly because the protagonist cares and I (hopefully) care about him, and perhaps in an abstract sense of not wanting bad things to happen to people. But it's going to be a lot more effective if I also care about the woman herself. And that's why it's important to flesh out her character--not anything about her sex. After all, an agender person who has no character other than being rescued by the transman protagonist would be just as uninteresting, albeit considerably less common.
(At this point someone will jump in saying that female characters are more commonly poorly-written than male characters. That's probably true, but also irrelevant. This is your work--what other people do is on them.)
Now don't get me wrong, you can totally go beyond bad writing to do this trope in a misogynistic manner. Probably the most common is a sort of subtle victim-blaming in how the scenario is presented. "Of course she got kidnapped--she's a woman. A man would never be so weak and foolish as to allow himself to be kidnapped, but women, well, they just can't help it." But you don't seem like the kind of person who would write like this, so I wouldn't worry about it much.
Spot on. Although I’d point out to those saying it’s misogynistic if she could be replaced with a heirloom, that the trope can still work even if she never appears. Perhaps the kidnappers found a note saying she just win a cruise and will be out of touch for a month, and then lie. They take the note and at the end he finds it after defeating that bad guys. Or they gloat about it as they kill him, he dies knowing it was all for nought. It’s the story that matters, it can be told badly an infinite number of ways, just as it can be told well in an infinite number of ways.
– jmoreno
5 hours ago
add a comment |
The scenario is not misogynistic. People need saving--sometimes those people are women. It also doesn't matter whether she "fights back" against her captors. The most realistic scenario of an everyday person being kidnapped by trained professionals is that they're going to sit there and do nothing. They're outnumbered, outmatched, and probably restrained--what are they going to do? What you want to avoid is not misogyny, but bad writing. That is, writing that makes the audience not care what happens.
See, a lot of claimed "misogyny" in media is just bad writing, but the character is a woman. Consider the damsel in distress trope we're talking about here. If a woman is introduced who has no purpose but to be rescued, the question I'm asking isn't "Why does the author hate women?" but "Why do I care what happens to her?" Well, I might care indirectly because the protagonist cares and I (hopefully) care about him, and perhaps in an abstract sense of not wanting bad things to happen to people. But it's going to be a lot more effective if I also care about the woman herself. And that's why it's important to flesh out her character--not anything about her sex. After all, an agender person who has no character other than being rescued by the transman protagonist would be just as uninteresting, albeit considerably less common.
(At this point someone will jump in saying that female characters are more commonly poorly-written than male characters. That's probably true, but also irrelevant. This is your work--what other people do is on them.)
Now don't get me wrong, you can totally go beyond bad writing to do this trope in a misogynistic manner. Probably the most common is a sort of subtle victim-blaming in how the scenario is presented. "Of course she got kidnapped--she's a woman. A man would never be so weak and foolish as to allow himself to be kidnapped, but women, well, they just can't help it." But you don't seem like the kind of person who would write like this, so I wouldn't worry about it much.
The scenario is not misogynistic. People need saving--sometimes those people are women. It also doesn't matter whether she "fights back" against her captors. The most realistic scenario of an everyday person being kidnapped by trained professionals is that they're going to sit there and do nothing. They're outnumbered, outmatched, and probably restrained--what are they going to do? What you want to avoid is not misogyny, but bad writing. That is, writing that makes the audience not care what happens.
See, a lot of claimed "misogyny" in media is just bad writing, but the character is a woman. Consider the damsel in distress trope we're talking about here. If a woman is introduced who has no purpose but to be rescued, the question I'm asking isn't "Why does the author hate women?" but "Why do I care what happens to her?" Well, I might care indirectly because the protagonist cares and I (hopefully) care about him, and perhaps in an abstract sense of not wanting bad things to happen to people. But it's going to be a lot more effective if I also care about the woman herself. And that's why it's important to flesh out her character--not anything about her sex. After all, an agender person who has no character other than being rescued by the transman protagonist would be just as uninteresting, albeit considerably less common.
(At this point someone will jump in saying that female characters are more commonly poorly-written than male characters. That's probably true, but also irrelevant. This is your work--what other people do is on them.)
Now don't get me wrong, you can totally go beyond bad writing to do this trope in a misogynistic manner. Probably the most common is a sort of subtle victim-blaming in how the scenario is presented. "Of course she got kidnapped--she's a woman. A man would never be so weak and foolish as to allow himself to be kidnapped, but women, well, they just can't help it." But you don't seem like the kind of person who would write like this, so I wouldn't worry about it much.
answered yesterday
eyeballfrogeyeballfrog
1,0381311
1,0381311
Spot on. Although I’d point out to those saying it’s misogynistic if she could be replaced with a heirloom, that the trope can still work even if she never appears. Perhaps the kidnappers found a note saying she just win a cruise and will be out of touch for a month, and then lie. They take the note and at the end he finds it after defeating that bad guys. Or they gloat about it as they kill him, he dies knowing it was all for nought. It’s the story that matters, it can be told badly an infinite number of ways, just as it can be told well in an infinite number of ways.
– jmoreno
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Spot on. Although I’d point out to those saying it’s misogynistic if she could be replaced with a heirloom, that the trope can still work even if she never appears. Perhaps the kidnappers found a note saying she just win a cruise and will be out of touch for a month, and then lie. They take the note and at the end he finds it after defeating that bad guys. Or they gloat about it as they kill him, he dies knowing it was all for nought. It’s the story that matters, it can be told badly an infinite number of ways, just as it can be told well in an infinite number of ways.
– jmoreno
5 hours ago
Spot on. Although I’d point out to those saying it’s misogynistic if she could be replaced with a heirloom, that the trope can still work even if she never appears. Perhaps the kidnappers found a note saying she just win a cruise and will be out of touch for a month, and then lie. They take the note and at the end he finds it after defeating that bad guys. Or they gloat about it as they kill him, he dies knowing it was all for nought. It’s the story that matters, it can be told badly an infinite number of ways, just as it can be told well in an infinite number of ways.
– jmoreno
5 hours ago
Spot on. Although I’d point out to those saying it’s misogynistic if she could be replaced with a heirloom, that the trope can still work even if she never appears. Perhaps the kidnappers found a note saying she just win a cruise and will be out of touch for a month, and then lie. They take the note and at the end he finds it after defeating that bad guys. Or they gloat about it as they kill him, he dies knowing it was all for nought. It’s the story that matters, it can be told badly an infinite number of ways, just as it can be told well in an infinite number of ways.
– jmoreno
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I agree with everyone, it depends.
There are very few original stories on this earth. No one is expecting a totally original story.
We only have 2 real genders. So you can have M saves F, M saves M, F saves M, F saves F. 4 combinations. Even if you include all the new genders, say, 17x17 is just 289 combinations, a pitifully small number in the face of the thousands of stories being created every single day.
Totally helpless damsel in distress is not misogynistic, but it is really old fashion, a bit unrealistic, and quite boring.
Take the Terminator, it started out as classic hero saving a damsel in distress story with Kyle Reese traveling back in time to save Sarah Connor. But within the 2 hours run time of the movie, that helpless damsel, an ordinary waitress, grew into a pillar of strength, and the mother of humanity's last hope.
New contributor
11
"We only have 2 real genders" may give the impression of being phrased to antagonise. If that wasn't your intention, it could be edited out without changing the core of the answer.
– trichoplax
2 days ago
3
Just pointing out the mathematical fact that there are a very finite number of combinations of who can rescue whom, relative to the nearly infinite number of stories being weaved. Any combination you can come up with can't possibly be original in and of itself. Therefore, just relax, and write a good story that entertains (and if it says something, all the better)
– ashleylee
2 days ago
3
"a bit unrealistic" - why? Historically, it was overwhelmingly the men who did the hunting and the fighting, and even today they do most of the more dangerous work. It's a simple fact that it's more common for men to be risk-takers than for women.
– vsz
yesterday
@vsz I'd go even further - it's extremely common for people in danger to do nothing to help themselves, even if it is easy and essentially risk-free. It's true for both men and women. It's also true for the would-be rescuer, so if we were writing realistic fiction, by far the most common story would be "Woman doesn't come back from work, guy calls the police and keeps worrying for a few weeks, the end." :)
– Luaan
18 hours ago
@Luaan: common yes. interesting no. if a story is just superman rescuing stranded kittens out of tall trees........ yes that would be realistic. it wouldn't be anti-kittens, but man would it be boring after the 5th time.
– ashleylee
14 hours ago
add a comment |
I agree with everyone, it depends.
There are very few original stories on this earth. No one is expecting a totally original story.
We only have 2 real genders. So you can have M saves F, M saves M, F saves M, F saves F. 4 combinations. Even if you include all the new genders, say, 17x17 is just 289 combinations, a pitifully small number in the face of the thousands of stories being created every single day.
Totally helpless damsel in distress is not misogynistic, but it is really old fashion, a bit unrealistic, and quite boring.
Take the Terminator, it started out as classic hero saving a damsel in distress story with Kyle Reese traveling back in time to save Sarah Connor. But within the 2 hours run time of the movie, that helpless damsel, an ordinary waitress, grew into a pillar of strength, and the mother of humanity's last hope.
New contributor
11
"We only have 2 real genders" may give the impression of being phrased to antagonise. If that wasn't your intention, it could be edited out without changing the core of the answer.
– trichoplax
2 days ago
3
Just pointing out the mathematical fact that there are a very finite number of combinations of who can rescue whom, relative to the nearly infinite number of stories being weaved. Any combination you can come up with can't possibly be original in and of itself. Therefore, just relax, and write a good story that entertains (and if it says something, all the better)
– ashleylee
2 days ago
3
"a bit unrealistic" - why? Historically, it was overwhelmingly the men who did the hunting and the fighting, and even today they do most of the more dangerous work. It's a simple fact that it's more common for men to be risk-takers than for women.
– vsz
yesterday
@vsz I'd go even further - it's extremely common for people in danger to do nothing to help themselves, even if it is easy and essentially risk-free. It's true for both men and women. It's also true for the would-be rescuer, so if we were writing realistic fiction, by far the most common story would be "Woman doesn't come back from work, guy calls the police and keeps worrying for a few weeks, the end." :)
– Luaan
18 hours ago
@Luaan: common yes. interesting no. if a story is just superman rescuing stranded kittens out of tall trees........ yes that would be realistic. it wouldn't be anti-kittens, but man would it be boring after the 5th time.
– ashleylee
14 hours ago
add a comment |
I agree with everyone, it depends.
There are very few original stories on this earth. No one is expecting a totally original story.
We only have 2 real genders. So you can have M saves F, M saves M, F saves M, F saves F. 4 combinations. Even if you include all the new genders, say, 17x17 is just 289 combinations, a pitifully small number in the face of the thousands of stories being created every single day.
Totally helpless damsel in distress is not misogynistic, but it is really old fashion, a bit unrealistic, and quite boring.
Take the Terminator, it started out as classic hero saving a damsel in distress story with Kyle Reese traveling back in time to save Sarah Connor. But within the 2 hours run time of the movie, that helpless damsel, an ordinary waitress, grew into a pillar of strength, and the mother of humanity's last hope.
New contributor
I agree with everyone, it depends.
There are very few original stories on this earth. No one is expecting a totally original story.
We only have 2 real genders. So you can have M saves F, M saves M, F saves M, F saves F. 4 combinations. Even if you include all the new genders, say, 17x17 is just 289 combinations, a pitifully small number in the face of the thousands of stories being created every single day.
Totally helpless damsel in distress is not misogynistic, but it is really old fashion, a bit unrealistic, and quite boring.
Take the Terminator, it started out as classic hero saving a damsel in distress story with Kyle Reese traveling back in time to save Sarah Connor. But within the 2 hours run time of the movie, that helpless damsel, an ordinary waitress, grew into a pillar of strength, and the mother of humanity's last hope.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
ashleyleeashleylee
1395
1395
New contributor
New contributor
11
"We only have 2 real genders" may give the impression of being phrased to antagonise. If that wasn't your intention, it could be edited out without changing the core of the answer.
– trichoplax
2 days ago
3
Just pointing out the mathematical fact that there are a very finite number of combinations of who can rescue whom, relative to the nearly infinite number of stories being weaved. Any combination you can come up with can't possibly be original in and of itself. Therefore, just relax, and write a good story that entertains (and if it says something, all the better)
– ashleylee
2 days ago
3
"a bit unrealistic" - why? Historically, it was overwhelmingly the men who did the hunting and the fighting, and even today they do most of the more dangerous work. It's a simple fact that it's more common for men to be risk-takers than for women.
– vsz
yesterday
@vsz I'd go even further - it's extremely common for people in danger to do nothing to help themselves, even if it is easy and essentially risk-free. It's true for both men and women. It's also true for the would-be rescuer, so if we were writing realistic fiction, by far the most common story would be "Woman doesn't come back from work, guy calls the police and keeps worrying for a few weeks, the end." :)
– Luaan
18 hours ago
@Luaan: common yes. interesting no. if a story is just superman rescuing stranded kittens out of tall trees........ yes that would be realistic. it wouldn't be anti-kittens, but man would it be boring after the 5th time.
– ashleylee
14 hours ago
add a comment |
11
"We only have 2 real genders" may give the impression of being phrased to antagonise. If that wasn't your intention, it could be edited out without changing the core of the answer.
– trichoplax
2 days ago
3
Just pointing out the mathematical fact that there are a very finite number of combinations of who can rescue whom, relative to the nearly infinite number of stories being weaved. Any combination you can come up with can't possibly be original in and of itself. Therefore, just relax, and write a good story that entertains (and if it says something, all the better)
– ashleylee
2 days ago
3
"a bit unrealistic" - why? Historically, it was overwhelmingly the men who did the hunting and the fighting, and even today they do most of the more dangerous work. It's a simple fact that it's more common for men to be risk-takers than for women.
– vsz
yesterday
@vsz I'd go even further - it's extremely common for people in danger to do nothing to help themselves, even if it is easy and essentially risk-free. It's true for both men and women. It's also true for the would-be rescuer, so if we were writing realistic fiction, by far the most common story would be "Woman doesn't come back from work, guy calls the police and keeps worrying for a few weeks, the end." :)
– Luaan
18 hours ago
@Luaan: common yes. interesting no. if a story is just superman rescuing stranded kittens out of tall trees........ yes that would be realistic. it wouldn't be anti-kittens, but man would it be boring after the 5th time.
– ashleylee
14 hours ago
11
11
"We only have 2 real genders" may give the impression of being phrased to antagonise. If that wasn't your intention, it could be edited out without changing the core of the answer.
– trichoplax
2 days ago
"We only have 2 real genders" may give the impression of being phrased to antagonise. If that wasn't your intention, it could be edited out without changing the core of the answer.
– trichoplax
2 days ago
3
3
Just pointing out the mathematical fact that there are a very finite number of combinations of who can rescue whom, relative to the nearly infinite number of stories being weaved. Any combination you can come up with can't possibly be original in and of itself. Therefore, just relax, and write a good story that entertains (and if it says something, all the better)
– ashleylee
2 days ago
Just pointing out the mathematical fact that there are a very finite number of combinations of who can rescue whom, relative to the nearly infinite number of stories being weaved. Any combination you can come up with can't possibly be original in and of itself. Therefore, just relax, and write a good story that entertains (and if it says something, all the better)
– ashleylee
2 days ago
3
3
"a bit unrealistic" - why? Historically, it was overwhelmingly the men who did the hunting and the fighting, and even today they do most of the more dangerous work. It's a simple fact that it's more common for men to be risk-takers than for women.
– vsz
yesterday
"a bit unrealistic" - why? Historically, it was overwhelmingly the men who did the hunting and the fighting, and even today they do most of the more dangerous work. It's a simple fact that it's more common for men to be risk-takers than for women.
– vsz
yesterday
@vsz I'd go even further - it's extremely common for people in danger to do nothing to help themselves, even if it is easy and essentially risk-free. It's true for both men and women. It's also true for the would-be rescuer, so if we were writing realistic fiction, by far the most common story would be "Woman doesn't come back from work, guy calls the police and keeps worrying for a few weeks, the end." :)
– Luaan
18 hours ago
@vsz I'd go even further - it's extremely common for people in danger to do nothing to help themselves, even if it is easy and essentially risk-free. It's true for both men and women. It's also true for the would-be rescuer, so if we were writing realistic fiction, by far the most common story would be "Woman doesn't come back from work, guy calls the police and keeps worrying for a few weeks, the end." :)
– Luaan
18 hours ago
@Luaan: common yes. interesting no. if a story is just superman rescuing stranded kittens out of tall trees........ yes that would be realistic. it wouldn't be anti-kittens, but man would it be boring after the 5th time.
– ashleylee
14 hours ago
@Luaan: common yes. interesting no. if a story is just superman rescuing stranded kittens out of tall trees........ yes that would be realistic. it wouldn't be anti-kittens, but man would it be boring after the 5th time.
– ashleylee
14 hours ago
add a comment |
I don't find this scenario misogynistic, but it might be a missed opportunity. Recently, in my own work, I've questioned why my heroes are often white and male, even though I'm a writer of color. I do have reasons (I'd like to cast a new point of view on members of the majority culture, and build a mainstream audience, and I don't like feeling "required" to write characters that resemble me demographically) but at a certain point I have to question why I would choose to tread such a well-trodden path. It's an especially acute question, given that strong protagonists of color are dramatically under-represented in my chosen genres.
You might find yourself writing a much more original story --one there might be unmet demand for --if Lily were the cyber-spy, and Edward were the one who got kidnapped.
It sounds like something in this basic concept isn't sitting right with you at a certain level. Maybe you should ask yourself the question I've started to ask myself: If this was a book someone else had written, would I be excited to read it? And would I see myself in its pages?
5
It's even a good opportunity to subvert the trope. Edward is a small-time leaker who it turns out was motivated in his actions by his sister Lily, an accomplished cyber-spy. In his efforts to save Lily, he attempts to use information as leverage and ends up getting kidnapped himself. It turns out Lily wasn't kidnapped at all but was actually hiding, and she ends up saving Edward.
– called2voyage
yesterday
add a comment |
I don't find this scenario misogynistic, but it might be a missed opportunity. Recently, in my own work, I've questioned why my heroes are often white and male, even though I'm a writer of color. I do have reasons (I'd like to cast a new point of view on members of the majority culture, and build a mainstream audience, and I don't like feeling "required" to write characters that resemble me demographically) but at a certain point I have to question why I would choose to tread such a well-trodden path. It's an especially acute question, given that strong protagonists of color are dramatically under-represented in my chosen genres.
You might find yourself writing a much more original story --one there might be unmet demand for --if Lily were the cyber-spy, and Edward were the one who got kidnapped.
It sounds like something in this basic concept isn't sitting right with you at a certain level. Maybe you should ask yourself the question I've started to ask myself: If this was a book someone else had written, would I be excited to read it? And would I see myself in its pages?
5
It's even a good opportunity to subvert the trope. Edward is a small-time leaker who it turns out was motivated in his actions by his sister Lily, an accomplished cyber-spy. In his efforts to save Lily, he attempts to use information as leverage and ends up getting kidnapped himself. It turns out Lily wasn't kidnapped at all but was actually hiding, and she ends up saving Edward.
– called2voyage
yesterday
add a comment |
I don't find this scenario misogynistic, but it might be a missed opportunity. Recently, in my own work, I've questioned why my heroes are often white and male, even though I'm a writer of color. I do have reasons (I'd like to cast a new point of view on members of the majority culture, and build a mainstream audience, and I don't like feeling "required" to write characters that resemble me demographically) but at a certain point I have to question why I would choose to tread such a well-trodden path. It's an especially acute question, given that strong protagonists of color are dramatically under-represented in my chosen genres.
You might find yourself writing a much more original story --one there might be unmet demand for --if Lily were the cyber-spy, and Edward were the one who got kidnapped.
It sounds like something in this basic concept isn't sitting right with you at a certain level. Maybe you should ask yourself the question I've started to ask myself: If this was a book someone else had written, would I be excited to read it? And would I see myself in its pages?
I don't find this scenario misogynistic, but it might be a missed opportunity. Recently, in my own work, I've questioned why my heroes are often white and male, even though I'm a writer of color. I do have reasons (I'd like to cast a new point of view on members of the majority culture, and build a mainstream audience, and I don't like feeling "required" to write characters that resemble me demographically) but at a certain point I have to question why I would choose to tread such a well-trodden path. It's an especially acute question, given that strong protagonists of color are dramatically under-represented in my chosen genres.
You might find yourself writing a much more original story --one there might be unmet demand for --if Lily were the cyber-spy, and Edward were the one who got kidnapped.
It sounds like something in this basic concept isn't sitting right with you at a certain level. Maybe you should ask yourself the question I've started to ask myself: If this was a book someone else had written, would I be excited to read it? And would I see myself in its pages?
edited yesterday
V2Blast
1334
1334
answered yesterday
Chris SunamiChris Sunami
28k333105
28k333105
5
It's even a good opportunity to subvert the trope. Edward is a small-time leaker who it turns out was motivated in his actions by his sister Lily, an accomplished cyber-spy. In his efforts to save Lily, he attempts to use information as leverage and ends up getting kidnapped himself. It turns out Lily wasn't kidnapped at all but was actually hiding, and she ends up saving Edward.
– called2voyage
yesterday
add a comment |
5
It's even a good opportunity to subvert the trope. Edward is a small-time leaker who it turns out was motivated in his actions by his sister Lily, an accomplished cyber-spy. In his efforts to save Lily, he attempts to use information as leverage and ends up getting kidnapped himself. It turns out Lily wasn't kidnapped at all but was actually hiding, and she ends up saving Edward.
– called2voyage
yesterday
5
5
It's even a good opportunity to subvert the trope. Edward is a small-time leaker who it turns out was motivated in his actions by his sister Lily, an accomplished cyber-spy. In his efforts to save Lily, he attempts to use information as leverage and ends up getting kidnapped himself. It turns out Lily wasn't kidnapped at all but was actually hiding, and she ends up saving Edward.
– called2voyage
yesterday
It's even a good opportunity to subvert the trope. Edward is a small-time leaker who it turns out was motivated in his actions by his sister Lily, an accomplished cyber-spy. In his efforts to save Lily, he attempts to use information as leverage and ends up getting kidnapped himself. It turns out Lily wasn't kidnapped at all but was actually hiding, and she ends up saving Edward.
– called2voyage
yesterday
add a comment |
I would say that no, it is not misogynistic, and particularly in your case it's realistic.
The majority of people working in the tech industry are male; for example, women only represent 33% of the workforce in silicon valley, so it makes total sense that your character whose background is IT-oriented is male.
People in the spying industry get threats all the time (or, at least, the ones portrayed in pop culture do) so it's not a far reach to suggest that one's sibling get kidnapped. It can be the start of a good plot.
Edward's sibling that gets abducted has a roughly 50% chance of being a sister or brother, choosing his sibling to be a sister is just a choice you made, it shouldn't need to be defended. It's not like you're going against the odds to get a woman in that role.
Most people who get kidnapped are quite helpless when they are being held captive, regardless of gender. Therefore it's not particularly degrading to women to portray a female hostage as such. It's to be expected.
Furthermore, most people who have a family member in danger will do all they can to help them. It's reasonable that Edward goes off to help his sister.
So I would say that hacker guy whose sister gets abducted goes on a mission to save her isn't misogynistic, it's realistic.
Pointing out the obvious here but don't make her helpless by using stereotypes involving women (e.g. don't say "she was easily abducted because she didn't want to fight back out of fear of messing up her hair").
New contributor
8
Also, the hero to be male is statistically more likely. Men are evolutionarily more predisposed to be risk-takers. It's not impossible for women, but still it's much more common in men. During the vast majority of human history, men were always the expendable gender, doing dangerous tasks, going out to hunt and to fight, risking themselves to protect women, because of the simple fact that losing many women would make the tribe go extinct, while losing many men wouldn't (as a tribe with many women and few men could reproduce better than a tribe with few women and many men).
– vsz
yesterday
8
The fact that it's realistic doesn't stop it also being highly misogynistic. I can't agree with this answer, which conflates the two. If society is misogynist, then replicating it will also be so. "Realistic" is not an excuse.
– Stilez
yesterday
2
@Stilez Current societal structure is part of reality. If the story has a realistic setting (it seems to me it has), you want to change as little about the world as possible while still enabling the plot. Setting up your story with irrealistic or at least improbable preconditions in order to not seem misogynistic (aka virtue signalling) can be itself considered misogynistic. :) I think you should only change the default preconditions if it is relevant to the story, otherwise, it seems unnecessary and possibly counterproductive to me. The answer seems very reasonable.
– P.Péter
19 hours ago
1
@Stilez Of course "realistic" is an excuse. That doesn't mean it's good writing. Writing intentionally breaks lots of realism to write in a way that's nice to read, interesting etc. Unless you seriously overdo it, it's just part of the suspension of disbelief that any fiction entails. If you think that "guy rescues girl" is misogynistic... well, that's seriously deflating the seriousness of what misogyny is.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
I would say that no, it is not misogynistic, and particularly in your case it's realistic.
The majority of people working in the tech industry are male; for example, women only represent 33% of the workforce in silicon valley, so it makes total sense that your character whose background is IT-oriented is male.
People in the spying industry get threats all the time (or, at least, the ones portrayed in pop culture do) so it's not a far reach to suggest that one's sibling get kidnapped. It can be the start of a good plot.
Edward's sibling that gets abducted has a roughly 50% chance of being a sister or brother, choosing his sibling to be a sister is just a choice you made, it shouldn't need to be defended. It's not like you're going against the odds to get a woman in that role.
Most people who get kidnapped are quite helpless when they are being held captive, regardless of gender. Therefore it's not particularly degrading to women to portray a female hostage as such. It's to be expected.
Furthermore, most people who have a family member in danger will do all they can to help them. It's reasonable that Edward goes off to help his sister.
So I would say that hacker guy whose sister gets abducted goes on a mission to save her isn't misogynistic, it's realistic.
Pointing out the obvious here but don't make her helpless by using stereotypes involving women (e.g. don't say "she was easily abducted because she didn't want to fight back out of fear of messing up her hair").
New contributor
8
Also, the hero to be male is statistically more likely. Men are evolutionarily more predisposed to be risk-takers. It's not impossible for women, but still it's much more common in men. During the vast majority of human history, men were always the expendable gender, doing dangerous tasks, going out to hunt and to fight, risking themselves to protect women, because of the simple fact that losing many women would make the tribe go extinct, while losing many men wouldn't (as a tribe with many women and few men could reproduce better than a tribe with few women and many men).
– vsz
yesterday
8
The fact that it's realistic doesn't stop it also being highly misogynistic. I can't agree with this answer, which conflates the two. If society is misogynist, then replicating it will also be so. "Realistic" is not an excuse.
– Stilez
yesterday
2
@Stilez Current societal structure is part of reality. If the story has a realistic setting (it seems to me it has), you want to change as little about the world as possible while still enabling the plot. Setting up your story with irrealistic or at least improbable preconditions in order to not seem misogynistic (aka virtue signalling) can be itself considered misogynistic. :) I think you should only change the default preconditions if it is relevant to the story, otherwise, it seems unnecessary and possibly counterproductive to me. The answer seems very reasonable.
– P.Péter
19 hours ago
1
@Stilez Of course "realistic" is an excuse. That doesn't mean it's good writing. Writing intentionally breaks lots of realism to write in a way that's nice to read, interesting etc. Unless you seriously overdo it, it's just part of the suspension of disbelief that any fiction entails. If you think that "guy rescues girl" is misogynistic... well, that's seriously deflating the seriousness of what misogyny is.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
I would say that no, it is not misogynistic, and particularly in your case it's realistic.
The majority of people working in the tech industry are male; for example, women only represent 33% of the workforce in silicon valley, so it makes total sense that your character whose background is IT-oriented is male.
People in the spying industry get threats all the time (or, at least, the ones portrayed in pop culture do) so it's not a far reach to suggest that one's sibling get kidnapped. It can be the start of a good plot.
Edward's sibling that gets abducted has a roughly 50% chance of being a sister or brother, choosing his sibling to be a sister is just a choice you made, it shouldn't need to be defended. It's not like you're going against the odds to get a woman in that role.
Most people who get kidnapped are quite helpless when they are being held captive, regardless of gender. Therefore it's not particularly degrading to women to portray a female hostage as such. It's to be expected.
Furthermore, most people who have a family member in danger will do all they can to help them. It's reasonable that Edward goes off to help his sister.
So I would say that hacker guy whose sister gets abducted goes on a mission to save her isn't misogynistic, it's realistic.
Pointing out the obvious here but don't make her helpless by using stereotypes involving women (e.g. don't say "she was easily abducted because she didn't want to fight back out of fear of messing up her hair").
New contributor
I would say that no, it is not misogynistic, and particularly in your case it's realistic.
The majority of people working in the tech industry are male; for example, women only represent 33% of the workforce in silicon valley, so it makes total sense that your character whose background is IT-oriented is male.
People in the spying industry get threats all the time (or, at least, the ones portrayed in pop culture do) so it's not a far reach to suggest that one's sibling get kidnapped. It can be the start of a good plot.
Edward's sibling that gets abducted has a roughly 50% chance of being a sister or brother, choosing his sibling to be a sister is just a choice you made, it shouldn't need to be defended. It's not like you're going against the odds to get a woman in that role.
Most people who get kidnapped are quite helpless when they are being held captive, regardless of gender. Therefore it's not particularly degrading to women to portray a female hostage as such. It's to be expected.
Furthermore, most people who have a family member in danger will do all they can to help them. It's reasonable that Edward goes off to help his sister.
So I would say that hacker guy whose sister gets abducted goes on a mission to save her isn't misogynistic, it's realistic.
Pointing out the obvious here but don't make her helpless by using stereotypes involving women (e.g. don't say "she was easily abducted because she didn't want to fight back out of fear of messing up her hair").
New contributor
edited 2 days ago
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
Alexandre AubreyAlexandre Aubrey
1933
1933
New contributor
New contributor
8
Also, the hero to be male is statistically more likely. Men are evolutionarily more predisposed to be risk-takers. It's not impossible for women, but still it's much more common in men. During the vast majority of human history, men were always the expendable gender, doing dangerous tasks, going out to hunt and to fight, risking themselves to protect women, because of the simple fact that losing many women would make the tribe go extinct, while losing many men wouldn't (as a tribe with many women and few men could reproduce better than a tribe with few women and many men).
– vsz
yesterday
8
The fact that it's realistic doesn't stop it also being highly misogynistic. I can't agree with this answer, which conflates the two. If society is misogynist, then replicating it will also be so. "Realistic" is not an excuse.
– Stilez
yesterday
2
@Stilez Current societal structure is part of reality. If the story has a realistic setting (it seems to me it has), you want to change as little about the world as possible while still enabling the plot. Setting up your story with irrealistic or at least improbable preconditions in order to not seem misogynistic (aka virtue signalling) can be itself considered misogynistic. :) I think you should only change the default preconditions if it is relevant to the story, otherwise, it seems unnecessary and possibly counterproductive to me. The answer seems very reasonable.
– P.Péter
19 hours ago
1
@Stilez Of course "realistic" is an excuse. That doesn't mean it's good writing. Writing intentionally breaks lots of realism to write in a way that's nice to read, interesting etc. Unless you seriously overdo it, it's just part of the suspension of disbelief that any fiction entails. If you think that "guy rescues girl" is misogynistic... well, that's seriously deflating the seriousness of what misogyny is.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
8
Also, the hero to be male is statistically more likely. Men are evolutionarily more predisposed to be risk-takers. It's not impossible for women, but still it's much more common in men. During the vast majority of human history, men were always the expendable gender, doing dangerous tasks, going out to hunt and to fight, risking themselves to protect women, because of the simple fact that losing many women would make the tribe go extinct, while losing many men wouldn't (as a tribe with many women and few men could reproduce better than a tribe with few women and many men).
– vsz
yesterday
8
The fact that it's realistic doesn't stop it also being highly misogynistic. I can't agree with this answer, which conflates the two. If society is misogynist, then replicating it will also be so. "Realistic" is not an excuse.
– Stilez
yesterday
2
@Stilez Current societal structure is part of reality. If the story has a realistic setting (it seems to me it has), you want to change as little about the world as possible while still enabling the plot. Setting up your story with irrealistic or at least improbable preconditions in order to not seem misogynistic (aka virtue signalling) can be itself considered misogynistic. :) I think you should only change the default preconditions if it is relevant to the story, otherwise, it seems unnecessary and possibly counterproductive to me. The answer seems very reasonable.
– P.Péter
19 hours ago
1
@Stilez Of course "realistic" is an excuse. That doesn't mean it's good writing. Writing intentionally breaks lots of realism to write in a way that's nice to read, interesting etc. Unless you seriously overdo it, it's just part of the suspension of disbelief that any fiction entails. If you think that "guy rescues girl" is misogynistic... well, that's seriously deflating the seriousness of what misogyny is.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
8
8
Also, the hero to be male is statistically more likely. Men are evolutionarily more predisposed to be risk-takers. It's not impossible for women, but still it's much more common in men. During the vast majority of human history, men were always the expendable gender, doing dangerous tasks, going out to hunt and to fight, risking themselves to protect women, because of the simple fact that losing many women would make the tribe go extinct, while losing many men wouldn't (as a tribe with many women and few men could reproduce better than a tribe with few women and many men).
– vsz
yesterday
Also, the hero to be male is statistically more likely. Men are evolutionarily more predisposed to be risk-takers. It's not impossible for women, but still it's much more common in men. During the vast majority of human history, men were always the expendable gender, doing dangerous tasks, going out to hunt and to fight, risking themselves to protect women, because of the simple fact that losing many women would make the tribe go extinct, while losing many men wouldn't (as a tribe with many women and few men could reproduce better than a tribe with few women and many men).
– vsz
yesterday
8
8
The fact that it's realistic doesn't stop it also being highly misogynistic. I can't agree with this answer, which conflates the two. If society is misogynist, then replicating it will also be so. "Realistic" is not an excuse.
– Stilez
yesterday
The fact that it's realistic doesn't stop it also being highly misogynistic. I can't agree with this answer, which conflates the two. If society is misogynist, then replicating it will also be so. "Realistic" is not an excuse.
– Stilez
yesterday
2
2
@Stilez Current societal structure is part of reality. If the story has a realistic setting (it seems to me it has), you want to change as little about the world as possible while still enabling the plot. Setting up your story with irrealistic or at least improbable preconditions in order to not seem misogynistic (aka virtue signalling) can be itself considered misogynistic. :) I think you should only change the default preconditions if it is relevant to the story, otherwise, it seems unnecessary and possibly counterproductive to me. The answer seems very reasonable.
– P.Péter
19 hours ago
@Stilez Current societal structure is part of reality. If the story has a realistic setting (it seems to me it has), you want to change as little about the world as possible while still enabling the plot. Setting up your story with irrealistic or at least improbable preconditions in order to not seem misogynistic (aka virtue signalling) can be itself considered misogynistic. :) I think you should only change the default preconditions if it is relevant to the story, otherwise, it seems unnecessary and possibly counterproductive to me. The answer seems very reasonable.
– P.Péter
19 hours ago
1
1
@Stilez Of course "realistic" is an excuse. That doesn't mean it's good writing. Writing intentionally breaks lots of realism to write in a way that's nice to read, interesting etc. Unless you seriously overdo it, it's just part of the suspension of disbelief that any fiction entails. If you think that "guy rescues girl" is misogynistic... well, that's seriously deflating the seriousness of what misogyny is.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
@Stilez Of course "realistic" is an excuse. That doesn't mean it's good writing. Writing intentionally breaks lots of realism to write in a way that's nice to read, interesting etc. Unless you seriously overdo it, it's just part of the suspension of disbelief that any fiction entails. If you think that "guy rescues girl" is misogynistic... well, that's seriously deflating the seriousness of what misogyny is.
– Luaan
18 hours ago
add a comment |
Coming from a different perspective, IMHO, a better story is how a man and a women save each other. A strong man and completely helpless woman is boring and unrealistic. The other direction, think if the Simpsons is great for comedy, but would also be boring in a drama or action flick.
A cheesy way to do this is for the man to face several opponents, and beat all but one. As that villain is closing in to deal the death blow to our hero, the heroine musters enough courage/know how/strength to deal a death blow to that villain and save our hero. Yay!
What weakness does your hero have that the female lead can save him from? What weakness does your female have that our hero can save her from?
To me that is what makes an interesting story in real life and in fiction.
Letting her defeat one bad guy while the badass hero defeats several bad guys doesn't seem like gender equality to me. How about letting the damsel contribute in other ways to the rescue than just in form of combat? Maybe she has some technical skill which saves the day? Maybe she has better emotional intelligence than the badass action hero, allowing her to solve a problem through deception or persuation which can not be solved with violence?
– Philipp
17 hours ago
add a comment |
Coming from a different perspective, IMHO, a better story is how a man and a women save each other. A strong man and completely helpless woman is boring and unrealistic. The other direction, think if the Simpsons is great for comedy, but would also be boring in a drama or action flick.
A cheesy way to do this is for the man to face several opponents, and beat all but one. As that villain is closing in to deal the death blow to our hero, the heroine musters enough courage/know how/strength to deal a death blow to that villain and save our hero. Yay!
What weakness does your hero have that the female lead can save him from? What weakness does your female have that our hero can save her from?
To me that is what makes an interesting story in real life and in fiction.
Letting her defeat one bad guy while the badass hero defeats several bad guys doesn't seem like gender equality to me. How about letting the damsel contribute in other ways to the rescue than just in form of combat? Maybe she has some technical skill which saves the day? Maybe she has better emotional intelligence than the badass action hero, allowing her to solve a problem through deception or persuation which can not be solved with violence?
– Philipp
17 hours ago
add a comment |
Coming from a different perspective, IMHO, a better story is how a man and a women save each other. A strong man and completely helpless woman is boring and unrealistic. The other direction, think if the Simpsons is great for comedy, but would also be boring in a drama or action flick.
A cheesy way to do this is for the man to face several opponents, and beat all but one. As that villain is closing in to deal the death blow to our hero, the heroine musters enough courage/know how/strength to deal a death blow to that villain and save our hero. Yay!
What weakness does your hero have that the female lead can save him from? What weakness does your female have that our hero can save her from?
To me that is what makes an interesting story in real life and in fiction.
Coming from a different perspective, IMHO, a better story is how a man and a women save each other. A strong man and completely helpless woman is boring and unrealistic. The other direction, think if the Simpsons is great for comedy, but would also be boring in a drama or action flick.
A cheesy way to do this is for the man to face several opponents, and beat all but one. As that villain is closing in to deal the death blow to our hero, the heroine musters enough courage/know how/strength to deal a death blow to that villain and save our hero. Yay!
What weakness does your hero have that the female lead can save him from? What weakness does your female have that our hero can save her from?
To me that is what makes an interesting story in real life and in fiction.
answered 2 days ago
Pete B.Pete B.
1365
1365
Letting her defeat one bad guy while the badass hero defeats several bad guys doesn't seem like gender equality to me. How about letting the damsel contribute in other ways to the rescue than just in form of combat? Maybe she has some technical skill which saves the day? Maybe she has better emotional intelligence than the badass action hero, allowing her to solve a problem through deception or persuation which can not be solved with violence?
– Philipp
17 hours ago
add a comment |
Letting her defeat one bad guy while the badass hero defeats several bad guys doesn't seem like gender equality to me. How about letting the damsel contribute in other ways to the rescue than just in form of combat? Maybe she has some technical skill which saves the day? Maybe she has better emotional intelligence than the badass action hero, allowing her to solve a problem through deception or persuation which can not be solved with violence?
– Philipp
17 hours ago
Letting her defeat one bad guy while the badass hero defeats several bad guys doesn't seem like gender equality to me. How about letting the damsel contribute in other ways to the rescue than just in form of combat? Maybe she has some technical skill which saves the day? Maybe she has better emotional intelligence than the badass action hero, allowing her to solve a problem through deception or persuation which can not be solved with violence?
– Philipp
17 hours ago
Letting her defeat one bad guy while the badass hero defeats several bad guys doesn't seem like gender equality to me. How about letting the damsel contribute in other ways to the rescue than just in form of combat? Maybe she has some technical skill which saves the day? Maybe she has better emotional intelligence than the badass action hero, allowing her to solve a problem through deception or persuation which can not be solved with violence?
– Philipp
17 hours ago
add a comment |
It's not sexism, sure. It's a story where one person saves another person. Change roles - let the girl save the boy, and nothing will change. Bad people are stealing the main character's relative, if Edward had a brother, bad people would steal boy, right?
Talking about the main idea of the plot - right you are, the topic seems to be canonic. But. It usually depends on authors skills and other plot features like unexpected situations, dialog etc. You are to make the story being not boring and add something innovative - and no one will say the plot is already used and the story is a duplicate. That's my opinion.
New contributor
add a comment |
It's not sexism, sure. It's a story where one person saves another person. Change roles - let the girl save the boy, and nothing will change. Bad people are stealing the main character's relative, if Edward had a brother, bad people would steal boy, right?
Talking about the main idea of the plot - right you are, the topic seems to be canonic. But. It usually depends on authors skills and other plot features like unexpected situations, dialog etc. You are to make the story being not boring and add something innovative - and no one will say the plot is already used and the story is a duplicate. That's my opinion.
New contributor
add a comment |
It's not sexism, sure. It's a story where one person saves another person. Change roles - let the girl save the boy, and nothing will change. Bad people are stealing the main character's relative, if Edward had a brother, bad people would steal boy, right?
Talking about the main idea of the plot - right you are, the topic seems to be canonic. But. It usually depends on authors skills and other plot features like unexpected situations, dialog etc. You are to make the story being not boring and add something innovative - and no one will say the plot is already used and the story is a duplicate. That's my opinion.
New contributor
It's not sexism, sure. It's a story where one person saves another person. Change roles - let the girl save the boy, and nothing will change. Bad people are stealing the main character's relative, if Edward had a brother, bad people would steal boy, right?
Talking about the main idea of the plot - right you are, the topic seems to be canonic. But. It usually depends on authors skills and other plot features like unexpected situations, dialog etc. You are to make the story being not boring and add something innovative - and no one will say the plot is already used and the story is a duplicate. That's my opinion.
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answered 21 hours ago
ChristieChristie
211
211
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Misogynistic or sexist is a soft judgement - there is no clear yes/no criterium. So the answer can't be "yes" or "no", it is more likely that on a spectrum between extreme misogyny and extreme equality of sexes, your work will be somewhere inbetween.
Different people and cultures rate these things very differently. My wife, for example, is a very strong woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, but she loves it when a man holds the door or helps her carry things. In her eyes, these are small priviledges of being a woman. In the eyes of a more feminist person, these things might be patriarchially oppressive behaviour.
There is nothing wrong with a strong male character and a female character in need of rescue. The best test I know for sexist bias is to reverse the roles in your head and check if you would consider that somehow wrong. If the sexes are interchangeable, then you aren't being sexist because your characters need to be one sex or the other and you simply happened to pick them the way you did.
It also helps if secondary characters break up the stereotype. If all the men in your story are strong hero-types and all the women are rescue-me-princesses, you probably have a gender bias issue. If your world is reasonably mixed and believable balanced, and just the main characters happen to be in this particular configuration, you probably don't.
add a comment |
Misogynistic or sexist is a soft judgement - there is no clear yes/no criterium. So the answer can't be "yes" or "no", it is more likely that on a spectrum between extreme misogyny and extreme equality of sexes, your work will be somewhere inbetween.
Different people and cultures rate these things very differently. My wife, for example, is a very strong woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, but she loves it when a man holds the door or helps her carry things. In her eyes, these are small priviledges of being a woman. In the eyes of a more feminist person, these things might be patriarchially oppressive behaviour.
There is nothing wrong with a strong male character and a female character in need of rescue. The best test I know for sexist bias is to reverse the roles in your head and check if you would consider that somehow wrong. If the sexes are interchangeable, then you aren't being sexist because your characters need to be one sex or the other and you simply happened to pick them the way you did.
It also helps if secondary characters break up the stereotype. If all the men in your story are strong hero-types and all the women are rescue-me-princesses, you probably have a gender bias issue. If your world is reasonably mixed and believable balanced, and just the main characters happen to be in this particular configuration, you probably don't.
add a comment |
Misogynistic or sexist is a soft judgement - there is no clear yes/no criterium. So the answer can't be "yes" or "no", it is more likely that on a spectrum between extreme misogyny and extreme equality of sexes, your work will be somewhere inbetween.
Different people and cultures rate these things very differently. My wife, for example, is a very strong woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, but she loves it when a man holds the door or helps her carry things. In her eyes, these are small priviledges of being a woman. In the eyes of a more feminist person, these things might be patriarchially oppressive behaviour.
There is nothing wrong with a strong male character and a female character in need of rescue. The best test I know for sexist bias is to reverse the roles in your head and check if you would consider that somehow wrong. If the sexes are interchangeable, then you aren't being sexist because your characters need to be one sex or the other and you simply happened to pick them the way you did.
It also helps if secondary characters break up the stereotype. If all the men in your story are strong hero-types and all the women are rescue-me-princesses, you probably have a gender bias issue. If your world is reasonably mixed and believable balanced, and just the main characters happen to be in this particular configuration, you probably don't.
Misogynistic or sexist is a soft judgement - there is no clear yes/no criterium. So the answer can't be "yes" or "no", it is more likely that on a spectrum between extreme misogyny and extreme equality of sexes, your work will be somewhere inbetween.
Different people and cultures rate these things very differently. My wife, for example, is a very strong woman who doesn't take shit from anyone, but she loves it when a man holds the door or helps her carry things. In her eyes, these are small priviledges of being a woman. In the eyes of a more feminist person, these things might be patriarchially oppressive behaviour.
There is nothing wrong with a strong male character and a female character in need of rescue. The best test I know for sexist bias is to reverse the roles in your head and check if you would consider that somehow wrong. If the sexes are interchangeable, then you aren't being sexist because your characters need to be one sex or the other and you simply happened to pick them the way you did.
It also helps if secondary characters break up the stereotype. If all the men in your story are strong hero-types and all the women are rescue-me-princesses, you probably have a gender bias issue. If your world is reasonably mixed and believable balanced, and just the main characters happen to be in this particular configuration, you probably don't.
answered 15 hours ago
TomTom
2,55349
2,55349
add a comment |
add a comment |
Mostly this would depend on how well its done, and how much sense it makes. Typically in writing if you can answer the question of "Why?" then you have a case to include that element or whatever it is that was in question and that certainly applies here.
Don't make Lily seem like someone who doesn't need saving in whatever situation she finds herself in and make Edward seem like someone whose incapable of saving someone in the given situation. As long as you can provide an answer as to why Lily needs Edward to save her, you shouldn't have any problem at all.
The tricky part of making sure you can do that is to make sure you dont over do it. For example theres no need to make Lily some crybaby who cant lift her shoes and her feet off the ground at the same time, but she shouldnt hold all the necessary cards to get herself out of the situation without Edward.
If you worry that the trope is too sexist try looking for other stories that the trope is also in. Just to pull one out of the air here: in Mario Princess Peach is taken by Bowser and for whatever reason Mario can eat things and get superpowers. Princess Peach in this situation cannot escape on her own, but its justified because Bowser isn't just a normal person. If you dont see common examples of the Trope as sexist, you're probably just suffering from your own criticisms getting in the way of your writing.
3
Hmm. Most would say, I think, that Peach is a prime bad example because she has no agency whatsoever (at least in the early games, and the more modern platformers I've played), and is just an object for Mario to rescue. She could be swapped out for Mario's family heirlooms and nothing would change.
– Azor Ahai
2 days ago
2
It's interesting to note that in a lot of the later games, Peach aids in her own rescue (first two Paper Mario games), escapes/nearly escapes on her own (Super Mario 3D Land), has to think about others that can't escape on their own (Super Mario Odyssey), uses trickery to avoid capture (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga), is rendered incapable of doing anything whatsoever (Super Mario 64), and/or is under Bowser's constant watch (Odyssey again). They try to show that it's less that she's an object to rescue, and more that she just can't fight Bowser and his entire army together..
– Justin Time
2 days ago
@AzorAhai I just pulled a random example out of the air I suppose. I would argue that Peach isn't necessarily powerless, but she's up against a force that is just too powerful. Like if the King wanted an asteroid gone, he's not powerless he's just trying to do something that can't be done by a normal person. Whatever though, if my example doesnt really work I'm sure everyone knows atleast one good example.
– M.Wallace
2 days ago
1
(Note that Bowser is also supposed to be skilled with dark magic, and is also able to fight off Peach's entire royal guard at the same time (although, since they're just Toads, that's not too much of a difficult task). While Peach has magic powers, too (mainly floating & telekinesis/telepathy), she seems to be the only good guy with them, while Bowser has magic himself and a force of magic-using minions (including his most trusted advisor, usually). Later games actually give the impression that it's less that Peach is helpless, and more that the Mario bros. are insanely badass...
– Justin Time
2 days ago
2
That's very true, @AzorAhai, thanks to cultural osmosis. I honestly think she's going to remain the example of the "damsel in distress" stereotype in gaming for a very long time, no matter how interesting & developed the games make her; there are much worse examples, though, such as Elise from (*shudder*) Sonic 06, who gets kidnapped as many times in one game as Peach does in... somewhere around 10-15 years' worth of games, IIRC. And the overalls vs. dress thing was simply a comment on how practical their clothing is for fighting/escaping an army (Mario's helps, Peach's gets in the way).
– Justin Time
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
Mostly this would depend on how well its done, and how much sense it makes. Typically in writing if you can answer the question of "Why?" then you have a case to include that element or whatever it is that was in question and that certainly applies here.
Don't make Lily seem like someone who doesn't need saving in whatever situation she finds herself in and make Edward seem like someone whose incapable of saving someone in the given situation. As long as you can provide an answer as to why Lily needs Edward to save her, you shouldn't have any problem at all.
The tricky part of making sure you can do that is to make sure you dont over do it. For example theres no need to make Lily some crybaby who cant lift her shoes and her feet off the ground at the same time, but she shouldnt hold all the necessary cards to get herself out of the situation without Edward.
If you worry that the trope is too sexist try looking for other stories that the trope is also in. Just to pull one out of the air here: in Mario Princess Peach is taken by Bowser and for whatever reason Mario can eat things and get superpowers. Princess Peach in this situation cannot escape on her own, but its justified because Bowser isn't just a normal person. If you dont see common examples of the Trope as sexist, you're probably just suffering from your own criticisms getting in the way of your writing.
3
Hmm. Most would say, I think, that Peach is a prime bad example because she has no agency whatsoever (at least in the early games, and the more modern platformers I've played), and is just an object for Mario to rescue. She could be swapped out for Mario's family heirlooms and nothing would change.
– Azor Ahai
2 days ago
2
It's interesting to note that in a lot of the later games, Peach aids in her own rescue (first two Paper Mario games), escapes/nearly escapes on her own (Super Mario 3D Land), has to think about others that can't escape on their own (Super Mario Odyssey), uses trickery to avoid capture (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga), is rendered incapable of doing anything whatsoever (Super Mario 64), and/or is under Bowser's constant watch (Odyssey again). They try to show that it's less that she's an object to rescue, and more that she just can't fight Bowser and his entire army together..
– Justin Time
2 days ago
@AzorAhai I just pulled a random example out of the air I suppose. I would argue that Peach isn't necessarily powerless, but she's up against a force that is just too powerful. Like if the King wanted an asteroid gone, he's not powerless he's just trying to do something that can't be done by a normal person. Whatever though, if my example doesnt really work I'm sure everyone knows atleast one good example.
– M.Wallace
2 days ago
1
(Note that Bowser is also supposed to be skilled with dark magic, and is also able to fight off Peach's entire royal guard at the same time (although, since they're just Toads, that's not too much of a difficult task). While Peach has magic powers, too (mainly floating & telekinesis/telepathy), she seems to be the only good guy with them, while Bowser has magic himself and a force of magic-using minions (including his most trusted advisor, usually). Later games actually give the impression that it's less that Peach is helpless, and more that the Mario bros. are insanely badass...
– Justin Time
2 days ago
2
That's very true, @AzorAhai, thanks to cultural osmosis. I honestly think she's going to remain the example of the "damsel in distress" stereotype in gaming for a very long time, no matter how interesting & developed the games make her; there are much worse examples, though, such as Elise from (*shudder*) Sonic 06, who gets kidnapped as many times in one game as Peach does in... somewhere around 10-15 years' worth of games, IIRC. And the overalls vs. dress thing was simply a comment on how practical their clothing is for fighting/escaping an army (Mario's helps, Peach's gets in the way).
– Justin Time
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
Mostly this would depend on how well its done, and how much sense it makes. Typically in writing if you can answer the question of "Why?" then you have a case to include that element or whatever it is that was in question and that certainly applies here.
Don't make Lily seem like someone who doesn't need saving in whatever situation she finds herself in and make Edward seem like someone whose incapable of saving someone in the given situation. As long as you can provide an answer as to why Lily needs Edward to save her, you shouldn't have any problem at all.
The tricky part of making sure you can do that is to make sure you dont over do it. For example theres no need to make Lily some crybaby who cant lift her shoes and her feet off the ground at the same time, but she shouldnt hold all the necessary cards to get herself out of the situation without Edward.
If you worry that the trope is too sexist try looking for other stories that the trope is also in. Just to pull one out of the air here: in Mario Princess Peach is taken by Bowser and for whatever reason Mario can eat things and get superpowers. Princess Peach in this situation cannot escape on her own, but its justified because Bowser isn't just a normal person. If you dont see common examples of the Trope as sexist, you're probably just suffering from your own criticisms getting in the way of your writing.
Mostly this would depend on how well its done, and how much sense it makes. Typically in writing if you can answer the question of "Why?" then you have a case to include that element or whatever it is that was in question and that certainly applies here.
Don't make Lily seem like someone who doesn't need saving in whatever situation she finds herself in and make Edward seem like someone whose incapable of saving someone in the given situation. As long as you can provide an answer as to why Lily needs Edward to save her, you shouldn't have any problem at all.
The tricky part of making sure you can do that is to make sure you dont over do it. For example theres no need to make Lily some crybaby who cant lift her shoes and her feet off the ground at the same time, but she shouldnt hold all the necessary cards to get herself out of the situation without Edward.
If you worry that the trope is too sexist try looking for other stories that the trope is also in. Just to pull one out of the air here: in Mario Princess Peach is taken by Bowser and for whatever reason Mario can eat things and get superpowers. Princess Peach in this situation cannot escape on her own, but its justified because Bowser isn't just a normal person. If you dont see common examples of the Trope as sexist, you're probably just suffering from your own criticisms getting in the way of your writing.
answered 2 days ago
M.WallaceM.Wallace
28637
28637
3
Hmm. Most would say, I think, that Peach is a prime bad example because she has no agency whatsoever (at least in the early games, and the more modern platformers I've played), and is just an object for Mario to rescue. She could be swapped out for Mario's family heirlooms and nothing would change.
– Azor Ahai
2 days ago
2
It's interesting to note that in a lot of the later games, Peach aids in her own rescue (first two Paper Mario games), escapes/nearly escapes on her own (Super Mario 3D Land), has to think about others that can't escape on their own (Super Mario Odyssey), uses trickery to avoid capture (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga), is rendered incapable of doing anything whatsoever (Super Mario 64), and/or is under Bowser's constant watch (Odyssey again). They try to show that it's less that she's an object to rescue, and more that she just can't fight Bowser and his entire army together..
– Justin Time
2 days ago
@AzorAhai I just pulled a random example out of the air I suppose. I would argue that Peach isn't necessarily powerless, but she's up against a force that is just too powerful. Like if the King wanted an asteroid gone, he's not powerless he's just trying to do something that can't be done by a normal person. Whatever though, if my example doesnt really work I'm sure everyone knows atleast one good example.
– M.Wallace
2 days ago
1
(Note that Bowser is also supposed to be skilled with dark magic, and is also able to fight off Peach's entire royal guard at the same time (although, since they're just Toads, that's not too much of a difficult task). While Peach has magic powers, too (mainly floating & telekinesis/telepathy), she seems to be the only good guy with them, while Bowser has magic himself and a force of magic-using minions (including his most trusted advisor, usually). Later games actually give the impression that it's less that Peach is helpless, and more that the Mario bros. are insanely badass...
– Justin Time
2 days ago
2
That's very true, @AzorAhai, thanks to cultural osmosis. I honestly think she's going to remain the example of the "damsel in distress" stereotype in gaming for a very long time, no matter how interesting & developed the games make her; there are much worse examples, though, such as Elise from (*shudder*) Sonic 06, who gets kidnapped as many times in one game as Peach does in... somewhere around 10-15 years' worth of games, IIRC. And the overalls vs. dress thing was simply a comment on how practical their clothing is for fighting/escaping an army (Mario's helps, Peach's gets in the way).
– Justin Time
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
3
Hmm. Most would say, I think, that Peach is a prime bad example because she has no agency whatsoever (at least in the early games, and the more modern platformers I've played), and is just an object for Mario to rescue. She could be swapped out for Mario's family heirlooms and nothing would change.
– Azor Ahai
2 days ago
2
It's interesting to note that in a lot of the later games, Peach aids in her own rescue (first two Paper Mario games), escapes/nearly escapes on her own (Super Mario 3D Land), has to think about others that can't escape on their own (Super Mario Odyssey), uses trickery to avoid capture (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga), is rendered incapable of doing anything whatsoever (Super Mario 64), and/or is under Bowser's constant watch (Odyssey again). They try to show that it's less that she's an object to rescue, and more that she just can't fight Bowser and his entire army together..
– Justin Time
2 days ago
@AzorAhai I just pulled a random example out of the air I suppose. I would argue that Peach isn't necessarily powerless, but she's up against a force that is just too powerful. Like if the King wanted an asteroid gone, he's not powerless he's just trying to do something that can't be done by a normal person. Whatever though, if my example doesnt really work I'm sure everyone knows atleast one good example.
– M.Wallace
2 days ago
1
(Note that Bowser is also supposed to be skilled with dark magic, and is also able to fight off Peach's entire royal guard at the same time (although, since they're just Toads, that's not too much of a difficult task). While Peach has magic powers, too (mainly floating & telekinesis/telepathy), she seems to be the only good guy with them, while Bowser has magic himself and a force of magic-using minions (including his most trusted advisor, usually). Later games actually give the impression that it's less that Peach is helpless, and more that the Mario bros. are insanely badass...
– Justin Time
2 days ago
2
That's very true, @AzorAhai, thanks to cultural osmosis. I honestly think she's going to remain the example of the "damsel in distress" stereotype in gaming for a very long time, no matter how interesting & developed the games make her; there are much worse examples, though, such as Elise from (*shudder*) Sonic 06, who gets kidnapped as many times in one game as Peach does in... somewhere around 10-15 years' worth of games, IIRC. And the overalls vs. dress thing was simply a comment on how practical their clothing is for fighting/escaping an army (Mario's helps, Peach's gets in the way).
– Justin Time
2 days ago
3
3
Hmm. Most would say, I think, that Peach is a prime bad example because she has no agency whatsoever (at least in the early games, and the more modern platformers I've played), and is just an object for Mario to rescue. She could be swapped out for Mario's family heirlooms and nothing would change.
– Azor Ahai
2 days ago
Hmm. Most would say, I think, that Peach is a prime bad example because she has no agency whatsoever (at least in the early games, and the more modern platformers I've played), and is just an object for Mario to rescue. She could be swapped out for Mario's family heirlooms and nothing would change.
– Azor Ahai
2 days ago
2
2
It's interesting to note that in a lot of the later games, Peach aids in her own rescue (first two Paper Mario games), escapes/nearly escapes on her own (Super Mario 3D Land), has to think about others that can't escape on their own (Super Mario Odyssey), uses trickery to avoid capture (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga), is rendered incapable of doing anything whatsoever (Super Mario 64), and/or is under Bowser's constant watch (Odyssey again). They try to show that it's less that she's an object to rescue, and more that she just can't fight Bowser and his entire army together..
– Justin Time
2 days ago
It's interesting to note that in a lot of the later games, Peach aids in her own rescue (first two Paper Mario games), escapes/nearly escapes on her own (Super Mario 3D Land), has to think about others that can't escape on their own (Super Mario Odyssey), uses trickery to avoid capture (Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga), is rendered incapable of doing anything whatsoever (Super Mario 64), and/or is under Bowser's constant watch (Odyssey again). They try to show that it's less that she's an object to rescue, and more that she just can't fight Bowser and his entire army together..
– Justin Time
2 days ago
@AzorAhai I just pulled a random example out of the air I suppose. I would argue that Peach isn't necessarily powerless, but she's up against a force that is just too powerful. Like if the King wanted an asteroid gone, he's not powerless he's just trying to do something that can't be done by a normal person. Whatever though, if my example doesnt really work I'm sure everyone knows atleast one good example.
– M.Wallace
2 days ago
@AzorAhai I just pulled a random example out of the air I suppose. I would argue that Peach isn't necessarily powerless, but she's up against a force that is just too powerful. Like if the King wanted an asteroid gone, he's not powerless he's just trying to do something that can't be done by a normal person. Whatever though, if my example doesnt really work I'm sure everyone knows atleast one good example.
– M.Wallace
2 days ago
1
1
(Note that Bowser is also supposed to be skilled with dark magic, and is also able to fight off Peach's entire royal guard at the same time (although, since they're just Toads, that's not too much of a difficult task). While Peach has magic powers, too (mainly floating & telekinesis/telepathy), she seems to be the only good guy with them, while Bowser has magic himself and a force of magic-using minions (including his most trusted advisor, usually). Later games actually give the impression that it's less that Peach is helpless, and more that the Mario bros. are insanely badass...
– Justin Time
2 days ago
(Note that Bowser is also supposed to be skilled with dark magic, and is also able to fight off Peach's entire royal guard at the same time (although, since they're just Toads, that's not too much of a difficult task). While Peach has magic powers, too (mainly floating & telekinesis/telepathy), she seems to be the only good guy with them, while Bowser has magic himself and a force of magic-using minions (including his most trusted advisor, usually). Later games actually give the impression that it's less that Peach is helpless, and more that the Mario bros. are insanely badass...
– Justin Time
2 days ago
2
2
That's very true, @AzorAhai, thanks to cultural osmosis. I honestly think she's going to remain the example of the "damsel in distress" stereotype in gaming for a very long time, no matter how interesting & developed the games make her; there are much worse examples, though, such as Elise from (*shudder*) Sonic 06, who gets kidnapped as many times in one game as Peach does in... somewhere around 10-15 years' worth of games, IIRC. And the overalls vs. dress thing was simply a comment on how practical their clothing is for fighting/escaping an army (Mario's helps, Peach's gets in the way).
– Justin Time
2 days ago
That's very true, @AzorAhai, thanks to cultural osmosis. I honestly think she's going to remain the example of the "damsel in distress" stereotype in gaming for a very long time, no matter how interesting & developed the games make her; there are much worse examples, though, such as Elise from (*shudder*) Sonic 06, who gets kidnapped as many times in one game as Peach does in... somewhere around 10-15 years' worth of games, IIRC. And the overalls vs. dress thing was simply a comment on how practical their clothing is for fighting/escaping an army (Mario's helps, Peach's gets in the way).
– Justin Time
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
The trope itself isn't sexist, but there are ways of doing things that can make a given instance sexist. You should be fine if:
- The female rescuee isn't shown to be totally helpless or incompetent (mistakes are fine, infact mistakes can be good, but it should be outweighed by, or at least balanced out by, things they do right). This should be addressed in the capture scenario too.
- The rescuer isn't saying or doing misogynistic things during or before the rescue scenario
- Romance/sex is involved in your story but isn't introduced here or made to seem like it is a reward or sole motivator for the rescue. Or if there is no romance/sex aspect at all.
Obviously adapt this to your story and the plot points you have already decided on.
New contributor
add a comment |
The trope itself isn't sexist, but there are ways of doing things that can make a given instance sexist. You should be fine if:
- The female rescuee isn't shown to be totally helpless or incompetent (mistakes are fine, infact mistakes can be good, but it should be outweighed by, or at least balanced out by, things they do right). This should be addressed in the capture scenario too.
- The rescuer isn't saying or doing misogynistic things during or before the rescue scenario
- Romance/sex is involved in your story but isn't introduced here or made to seem like it is a reward or sole motivator for the rescue. Or if there is no romance/sex aspect at all.
Obviously adapt this to your story and the plot points you have already decided on.
New contributor
add a comment |
The trope itself isn't sexist, but there are ways of doing things that can make a given instance sexist. You should be fine if:
- The female rescuee isn't shown to be totally helpless or incompetent (mistakes are fine, infact mistakes can be good, but it should be outweighed by, or at least balanced out by, things they do right). This should be addressed in the capture scenario too.
- The rescuer isn't saying or doing misogynistic things during or before the rescue scenario
- Romance/sex is involved in your story but isn't introduced here or made to seem like it is a reward or sole motivator for the rescue. Or if there is no romance/sex aspect at all.
Obviously adapt this to your story and the plot points you have already decided on.
New contributor
The trope itself isn't sexist, but there are ways of doing things that can make a given instance sexist. You should be fine if:
- The female rescuee isn't shown to be totally helpless or incompetent (mistakes are fine, infact mistakes can be good, but it should be outweighed by, or at least balanced out by, things they do right). This should be addressed in the capture scenario too.
- The rescuer isn't saying or doing misogynistic things during or before the rescue scenario
- Romance/sex is involved in your story but isn't introduced here or made to seem like it is a reward or sole motivator for the rescue. Or if there is no romance/sex aspect at all.
Obviously adapt this to your story and the plot points you have already decided on.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 20 hours ago
520520
101
101
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
Related: How can I tell if a concept is sexist? , How do I develop a strong female character?
– Standback
yesterday
7
You can be sure some people will find it mysogynic. But some people will find a fireman saving a woman from a burning house mysogynic too. Don't worry, just write your thing.
– SF.
19 hours ago
I can't help wonder if Lily's name is subliminally contributing to people's fears that she will be completely inert as a character Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin
– Spagirl
16 hours ago
1
The problem with this trope is the extreme disparity of what's at stake. A woman abducted by a stranger has much higher stakes than a man whose sister got kidnapped. It's the same mis-match with Women In Refrigerators: being murdered is MUCH WORSE than a villain trying to throw the hero off his game. If there is "misogyny" it's that this (description-less) sister is passed like a football to show which team is "winning". As others have said, she could be a vase or a poodle or a microchip.... Keep the highest stakes with your MC, not with an expendable character.
– wetcircuit
16 hours ago
1
@WadeWilson: I was going to suggest something similar, but rather than let the sister give them the slip, have her choices factor into leaving clues that her brother would understand as coded messages that allow her to signal her location or other method of communicating. Many Urban Self defense courses do teach people how to get messages out without alerting your kidnapper to what you are doing. It's not even new. Gretel left the breadcrumbs to get her and Hansel back home. It would have worked too, if not for the birds.
– hszmv
14 hours ago