Why is printed music published with incorrect enharmonics?
I'm seeing more and more music that contains conflicting or erroneous information - for example, C°7 written with an A, (not B♭♭), or E7♭5 with A♯ (not B♭).
Wondering if it's just ignorance, or whether writers try to come up with what they consider easier to read dots. It's in all sorts of publications, from printed sheet music (different publishers) to 'educational' books.
This may get thrown out as subjective, but there could be good reasons for it - maybe computer programs don't help? And the bottom line - does it really matter?
EDIT: yes, it has to be the publishers ultimately, but there's a distinct possibility that they merely print what they're given, therefore I can't hold them totally responsible. Not entirely convinced by the title edit.
notation enharmonics
|
show 13 more comments
I'm seeing more and more music that contains conflicting or erroneous information - for example, C°7 written with an A, (not B♭♭), or E7♭5 with A♯ (not B♭).
Wondering if it's just ignorance, or whether writers try to come up with what they consider easier to read dots. It's in all sorts of publications, from printed sheet music (different publishers) to 'educational' books.
This may get thrown out as subjective, but there could be good reasons for it - maybe computer programs don't help? And the bottom line - does it really matter?
EDIT: yes, it has to be the publishers ultimately, but there's a distinct possibility that they merely print what they're given, therefore I can't hold them totally responsible. Not entirely convinced by the title edit.
notation enharmonics
3
Yeah, the Levine book is notorious for this, and it bothers me because it is meant to be an educational book. Jazz, generally speaking, is more free with enharmonic spellings than classical music, though.
– Peter
2 days ago
2
How do you know when you see the dots for C, Eb, and A that it's meant to be a C diminished chord? Are there chord names above it? It could be an A diminished chord spelled correctly. Of course you may have just been using that as an example, but I think my question still stands - perhaps what you think was intended by the notation isn't what was intended. Pivoting to assuming you're correct, I have noticed that notation software tends to force notes to the next letter instead of adding an accidental. If you want a double flat or a Cb, you have to go out of your way to do it manually.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I have Levine's book, and generally I like it. Enharmonic spellings do annoy me but I am more used to seeing flagrant mistakes. I think this is not what you are referring to here. I once had a musical score that was two guitar parts fused, along with a key change. The two parts were not lined up (off by several measures) and one of the parts did not have the key changed. Needless to say that sounded like orchestrated Free form Acid Jazz until we fixed it.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
Jazz enharmonics have to be more loose, I think, because the same note can function enharmonically in different ways. For example, I play a Db7b9 for the penultimate note of "The Christmas Song." The melody has a D-natural, but the chord has an E-double-flat. (And, no, I can't make a C# chord as then you have a different contradiction--resolving a C# to C.) Extended harmony to some extent expects equal temperament.
– trlkly
yesterday
2
Since this question got into Hot Network Question, might consider a better title to reflect the real problem (was it about "notation with enharmonic spelling"? I'm not knowledgable on this topic, so I'm not sure)
– Andrew T.
yesterday
|
show 13 more comments
I'm seeing more and more music that contains conflicting or erroneous information - for example, C°7 written with an A, (not B♭♭), or E7♭5 with A♯ (not B♭).
Wondering if it's just ignorance, or whether writers try to come up with what they consider easier to read dots. It's in all sorts of publications, from printed sheet music (different publishers) to 'educational' books.
This may get thrown out as subjective, but there could be good reasons for it - maybe computer programs don't help? And the bottom line - does it really matter?
EDIT: yes, it has to be the publishers ultimately, but there's a distinct possibility that they merely print what they're given, therefore I can't hold them totally responsible. Not entirely convinced by the title edit.
notation enharmonics
I'm seeing more and more music that contains conflicting or erroneous information - for example, C°7 written with an A, (not B♭♭), or E7♭5 with A♯ (not B♭).
Wondering if it's just ignorance, or whether writers try to come up with what they consider easier to read dots. It's in all sorts of publications, from printed sheet music (different publishers) to 'educational' books.
This may get thrown out as subjective, but there could be good reasons for it - maybe computer programs don't help? And the bottom line - does it really matter?
EDIT: yes, it has to be the publishers ultimately, but there's a distinct possibility that they merely print what they're given, therefore I can't hold them totally responsible. Not entirely convinced by the title edit.
notation enharmonics
notation enharmonics
edited 19 hours ago
Tim
asked 2 days ago
TimTim
97.7k10100251
97.7k10100251
3
Yeah, the Levine book is notorious for this, and it bothers me because it is meant to be an educational book. Jazz, generally speaking, is more free with enharmonic spellings than classical music, though.
– Peter
2 days ago
2
How do you know when you see the dots for C, Eb, and A that it's meant to be a C diminished chord? Are there chord names above it? It could be an A diminished chord spelled correctly. Of course you may have just been using that as an example, but I think my question still stands - perhaps what you think was intended by the notation isn't what was intended. Pivoting to assuming you're correct, I have noticed that notation software tends to force notes to the next letter instead of adding an accidental. If you want a double flat or a Cb, you have to go out of your way to do it manually.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I have Levine's book, and generally I like it. Enharmonic spellings do annoy me but I am more used to seeing flagrant mistakes. I think this is not what you are referring to here. I once had a musical score that was two guitar parts fused, along with a key change. The two parts were not lined up (off by several measures) and one of the parts did not have the key changed. Needless to say that sounded like orchestrated Free form Acid Jazz until we fixed it.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
Jazz enharmonics have to be more loose, I think, because the same note can function enharmonically in different ways. For example, I play a Db7b9 for the penultimate note of "The Christmas Song." The melody has a D-natural, but the chord has an E-double-flat. (And, no, I can't make a C# chord as then you have a different contradiction--resolving a C# to C.) Extended harmony to some extent expects equal temperament.
– trlkly
yesterday
2
Since this question got into Hot Network Question, might consider a better title to reflect the real problem (was it about "notation with enharmonic spelling"? I'm not knowledgable on this topic, so I'm not sure)
– Andrew T.
yesterday
|
show 13 more comments
3
Yeah, the Levine book is notorious for this, and it bothers me because it is meant to be an educational book. Jazz, generally speaking, is more free with enharmonic spellings than classical music, though.
– Peter
2 days ago
2
How do you know when you see the dots for C, Eb, and A that it's meant to be a C diminished chord? Are there chord names above it? It could be an A diminished chord spelled correctly. Of course you may have just been using that as an example, but I think my question still stands - perhaps what you think was intended by the notation isn't what was intended. Pivoting to assuming you're correct, I have noticed that notation software tends to force notes to the next letter instead of adding an accidental. If you want a double flat or a Cb, you have to go out of your way to do it manually.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I have Levine's book, and generally I like it. Enharmonic spellings do annoy me but I am more used to seeing flagrant mistakes. I think this is not what you are referring to here. I once had a musical score that was two guitar parts fused, along with a key change. The two parts were not lined up (off by several measures) and one of the parts did not have the key changed. Needless to say that sounded like orchestrated Free form Acid Jazz until we fixed it.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
Jazz enharmonics have to be more loose, I think, because the same note can function enharmonically in different ways. For example, I play a Db7b9 for the penultimate note of "The Christmas Song." The melody has a D-natural, but the chord has an E-double-flat. (And, no, I can't make a C# chord as then you have a different contradiction--resolving a C# to C.) Extended harmony to some extent expects equal temperament.
– trlkly
yesterday
2
Since this question got into Hot Network Question, might consider a better title to reflect the real problem (was it about "notation with enharmonic spelling"? I'm not knowledgable on this topic, so I'm not sure)
– Andrew T.
yesterday
3
3
Yeah, the Levine book is notorious for this, and it bothers me because it is meant to be an educational book. Jazz, generally speaking, is more free with enharmonic spellings than classical music, though.
– Peter
2 days ago
Yeah, the Levine book is notorious for this, and it bothers me because it is meant to be an educational book. Jazz, generally speaking, is more free with enharmonic spellings than classical music, though.
– Peter
2 days ago
2
2
How do you know when you see the dots for C, Eb, and A that it's meant to be a C diminished chord? Are there chord names above it? It could be an A diminished chord spelled correctly. Of course you may have just been using that as an example, but I think my question still stands - perhaps what you think was intended by the notation isn't what was intended. Pivoting to assuming you're correct, I have noticed that notation software tends to force notes to the next letter instead of adding an accidental. If you want a double flat or a Cb, you have to go out of your way to do it manually.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
How do you know when you see the dots for C, Eb, and A that it's meant to be a C diminished chord? Are there chord names above it? It could be an A diminished chord spelled correctly. Of course you may have just been using that as an example, but I think my question still stands - perhaps what you think was intended by the notation isn't what was intended. Pivoting to assuming you're correct, I have noticed that notation software tends to force notes to the next letter instead of adding an accidental. If you want a double flat or a Cb, you have to go out of your way to do it manually.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
1
I have Levine's book, and generally I like it. Enharmonic spellings do annoy me but I am more used to seeing flagrant mistakes. I think this is not what you are referring to here. I once had a musical score that was two guitar parts fused, along with a key change. The two parts were not lined up (off by several measures) and one of the parts did not have the key changed. Needless to say that sounded like orchestrated Free form Acid Jazz until we fixed it.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I have Levine's book, and generally I like it. Enharmonic spellings do annoy me but I am more used to seeing flagrant mistakes. I think this is not what you are referring to here. I once had a musical score that was two guitar parts fused, along with a key change. The two parts were not lined up (off by several measures) and one of the parts did not have the key changed. Needless to say that sounded like orchestrated Free form Acid Jazz until we fixed it.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
2
Jazz enharmonics have to be more loose, I think, because the same note can function enharmonically in different ways. For example, I play a Db7b9 for the penultimate note of "The Christmas Song." The melody has a D-natural, but the chord has an E-double-flat. (And, no, I can't make a C# chord as then you have a different contradiction--resolving a C# to C.) Extended harmony to some extent expects equal temperament.
– trlkly
yesterday
Jazz enharmonics have to be more loose, I think, because the same note can function enharmonically in different ways. For example, I play a Db7b9 for the penultimate note of "The Christmas Song." The melody has a D-natural, but the chord has an E-double-flat. (And, no, I can't make a C# chord as then you have a different contradiction--resolving a C# to C.) Extended harmony to some extent expects equal temperament.
– trlkly
yesterday
2
2
Since this question got into Hot Network Question, might consider a better title to reflect the real problem (was it about "notation with enharmonic spelling"? I'm not knowledgable on this topic, so I'm not sure)
– Andrew T.
yesterday
Since this question got into Hot Network Question, might consider a better title to reflect the real problem (was it about "notation with enharmonic spelling"? I'm not knowledgable on this topic, so I'm not sure)
– Andrew T.
yesterday
|
show 13 more comments
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
When I was taking harmony theory my teacher would take points off for using enharmonic notes in a chord definition. He'd say D# is the sharp ninth of C, not Eb. And he is (was) correct. There is good reason to follow the correct theoretical naming convention. I also find it easier to sight read when the notes are in the correct chord form.
I have noticed that several open source music writing and tab programs will NOT place notes where I want them. Perhaps the option is there and I just don't know how to use it but I suspect that if it isn't obvious a lot of folks are going to ignore it. Hopefully this is a technology issue and not a lowering standards issue. Since every Tom, Dick, and Harry, can write and publish it's hard to know if you are referring to professional publications or junk you are finding on line. Perhaps you could make your question better by offering a few examples.
Some of it may very well be ignorance. Perhaps a young musician with little formal education is posting work and is not aware of the meaning behind the note names.
As for your last question, does it matter? I really think it does. For one thing enharmonic tones are a feature of equal tempered tuning and not in Just tuning. There is a real loss if information. The movement of notes will not appear correct. And it will be difficult to identify chords properly when sight reading, at least for guitar and I suspect piano too.
If you've read some of my answers and comments, you'll be well aware of my view of some (a lot!) online stuff. I've been tripped up , in key E, seeing an Abm chord written. Just couldn't find it! But that's not exactly what I'm highlighting here - that's just some guitarist who didn't know better. This question has hopefully struck a chord - for wont of a better phrase..! I know which I prefer!
– Tim
2 days ago
1
I wonder/worry if you've hit on the source of this: the software that people are using. In Musescore, for example, you can't place a Cb or B# on the staff, even by using the up and down arrows. You have to place a C (or B) and then use the explicit sharp or flat tool to add the accidental. Likewise with double sharps and double flats - you have to go out of your way to notate them. It is not aware of the key signature when placing notes. Even if it were, as I mentioned in my comment, it's not always possible to determine the notation intention. So people might just be lazy.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I do use Musecsore and GuitarTux, and both have idiosyncrasies. However, I refuse to distribute things that are not "correct". I may get lazy about fixing them but if so I won't publish. I wouldn't want to screw up my students.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ToddWilcox Every version of Musescore I've ever used is certianly aware of the key signature when placing notes. If you have a key signature of (say) E major, clicking on or typing F (in note entry mode) will place an F#. Of course it won't have a sharp by it, but with the key signature it is still an F#. Selecting it and pressing UP will change it to Fx (F double-sharp) and pressing DOWN will change it to F natural.
– pizzapants184
2 days ago
1
@pizzapants184 I just checked and you're correct. I'm not sure why I've had trouble placing Cb and E# etc. in the past. Perhaps if I'm working way outside the key signature (which is very often). I know I've had to jump through hoops to get unusual accidentals placed in the past.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
add a comment |
Most composers I know operate on two levels: theoretical and practical.
The difference between A and Bbb only matters for analytical purposes. When reading melodically double-flats and double-sharps can be difficult for performers to read because they lead to more diminished and augmented intervals (like G to Bbb, or Bbb to C) - which composers try to avoid notating.
The last step of the composition process for many composers is to go through each instruments' part and review it for readability. So, for instance, if a line goes Gb-Bbb-C, they will change that Bbb to an A because it will be clearer to a performer.
I don't necessarily think it's because the writers are lazy or ignorant of theory. It's the composer's job to convey the notes clearly to the performer, not to give them a theory lesson.
1
I disagree with your assessment of "difficult to read". On guitar it is much easier to read the whole chord as a unit and if enharmonic notes are used it really screws you up. That statement is relative.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ggcg I could probably be clearer. I'm referring to sight-reading the pitches melodically (one after another). If you're reading a stacked chord, then the double-flat may be clearer because it preserves the appearance of stacked thirds. My point is that theory shouldn't get in the way of clarity.
– Peter
2 days ago
Fair enough, I see your point.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I don't think this case is really what the OP is talking about. He's asking about chord mis-spellings (and I think also cases like D# major instead of the conventional Eb major)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
@MichaelCurtis I interpreted the question differently than you. The OP asked about "erroneous information" and whether it was put there to make "easier to read dots." He doesn't mention anything about chord misspellings or key signatures in the question.
– Peter
2 days ago
add a comment |
It may be erroneous and the smartest thing to write at the same time.
Consider film scores, here a piece in any key will often be written without any sharps or flats at the key signature. It would look like it were considered in C maj or Amin, wich may be utterly untrue, but it makes practical sense: Musicians read it easily and do not miss as many flats / sharps by accident. Is it "correct" ? Probably not.
I like writing my stuff in the correct way, but sometimes I will change it in for practical reasons... If one analyzes it, he will find out soon enough. But yeah... my guess it is lazyness, and giving in to lazyness, time pressure and so on...
New contributor
add a comment |
Many jazz arrangers will substitute B for Cb, even when it's the b7 in Db7 or the minor third in Abm. It sends me mad, but it's the convention in that style. They'll spell a dim7 chord whatever way avoids a 'difficult' accidental.
It's very common in printed song copies to see a diminished 7th chord mis-spelt, in fact it would be quite remarkable to see Cdim7 spelt with a Bbb. This doesn't worry me in the slightest!
In the 'classical' and academic worlds you're more likely to see one spelt 'correctly'. But would you fault Beethoven for this? Why not?
add a comment |
My feeling is that these mistakes are made when the writer isn't used to reading the staff or doesn't understand the harmonic implications of enharmonic spellings.
...does it really matter?
I say it matter only if you want to be able to refer to chords by letter names and accidentals and if you want to consistently describe relative relations of tones and chords.
The point can be illustrated by pushing things to the absurd. How about a circle of diminished sixths? Or a C major chord spelled Dbb E Fx
? Those would be obviously silly to even the beginning student.
It shouldn't be too hard to go from that beginner level to explain why F A C D#
resolves in Am
as Gr+6|i6/4 V
functioning as an inverted, altered subdominant, but F A C Eb
resolves in Bb
as V7|I
functioning as a dominant, and the difference is implied by the enharmonic spellings even though both chords in isolation sound like dominant seventh chords.
When people write Co7
, spell it C Eb Gb A
, and then resolve it to C#
major they need to be corrected... on both errors!
It's totally unacceptable in educational materials.
If it resolves to C♯ major, should it then be B♯ diminished 7th?
– user45266
2 days ago
Yes. But, unless there is some special reason to do otherwise, the second chord should be changed toDb
major. (Key signature of 5 flats versus 7 sharps for C#)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
Okay, fair enough. Funny enough, B♯ diminished 7th does contain the note A! :)
– user45266
2 days ago
I re-worded that sentence to show what I meant - two errors in spelling
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
add a comment |
With jazz, at least, I think there is an underlying reason to use an easier spelling: the enharmonic function can actually be contradictory between melody and harmony.
For example, I love using a Db7b9 chord (or an Fdim7/Db) for the penultimate note of "A Christmas Song," which is melodically a D natural. But, harmonically, that's an Ebb in the chord, the b9 of the Db7b9 chord. (And, no, I can't spell it as a C#7b9 chord, as that can't resolve to the final C chord.)
And this is entirely an accepted harmonization. That suggests heavily that jazz doesn't maintain the distinction between enharmonic chords.
This can happen even outside of jazz, as long as someone is playing with harmony in a way that presupposes equal temperament. But it's so common in jazz that it makes sense that they don't even bother.
(I also note that, I'm already cheating one note, I also go ahead and use a B instead of a Cb. The stacked thirds are already obscured either way.)
add a comment |
You've already answered your question: some notation may be ignorance, some in purpose to make it easier for reading.
But there seems to be another reason: toward a modern notation!
as they speak about traditional notation there must be a movement to change things:
http://musicnotation.org/tutorials/enharmonic-equivalents/
It says:
„Various Approaches
There are at least three different approaches to the representation of enharmonic equivalents in chromatic staff notation systems:
- Not Explicitly Differentiating Between Enharmonic Equivalents
…while assuming twelve-tone equal temperament for intonation and/or relying on contextual cues and conventions for harmonic/melodic function and intonation.“ ...
and:
These approaches involve nomenclature as well, since the traditional note and interval names make a distinction between enharmonic equivalents. For example, the first approach above lends itself to using a novel nomenclature for notes and intervals, otherwise the names of some notes and intervals would remain ambiguous.
„To conclude, there are different views on just how important it is to distinguish between enharmonic equivalents in music notation, and on how not doing so might affect the understanding of their intonation and tonal function. Fortunately, there are also corresponding approaches to representing them (or not) in a chromatic staff notation system.„
In orthography the rules about correct writing are adapted to errors and ignorance. When I read on facebook it seems that today most german (even teachers) aren‘t able to differ the article das and the relative pronoun das from the conjuction dass. You can find everythig! Why should it be different in music notation? I‘m not a purist nor a culture pessimist. But if you consider that most adult leave school as musical analphabeths after nine years of 2 lessons of music ... it‘s just ignorance. But there are 2 kinds of ignorance: you don‘t know it better or you just don‘t mind. Does it matter?
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
add a comment |
Í‘ve overlooked the term publishers in your question. Now I‘ll answer a pretty different argument. There are series of pop music and classic pieces like easy piano of sikorski edition or yamaha publishing. Who wants to publish music that can‘t be read by beginners of keyboard playing? (Some may say: but the easy reading aspect was already mentioned. But I want to emohasize the commercial aspectfor the publishers.
Computer notation programs can manage this (but they still need a great work of editing by hand, this needs time and will rise the costs for a product that would better been sold without editing the enharmonics.)
The term publishers was edited in without reference to me later. Not overlooked - not there.
– Tim
23 hours ago
add a comment |
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When I was taking harmony theory my teacher would take points off for using enharmonic notes in a chord definition. He'd say D# is the sharp ninth of C, not Eb. And he is (was) correct. There is good reason to follow the correct theoretical naming convention. I also find it easier to sight read when the notes are in the correct chord form.
I have noticed that several open source music writing and tab programs will NOT place notes where I want them. Perhaps the option is there and I just don't know how to use it but I suspect that if it isn't obvious a lot of folks are going to ignore it. Hopefully this is a technology issue and not a lowering standards issue. Since every Tom, Dick, and Harry, can write and publish it's hard to know if you are referring to professional publications or junk you are finding on line. Perhaps you could make your question better by offering a few examples.
Some of it may very well be ignorance. Perhaps a young musician with little formal education is posting work and is not aware of the meaning behind the note names.
As for your last question, does it matter? I really think it does. For one thing enharmonic tones are a feature of equal tempered tuning and not in Just tuning. There is a real loss if information. The movement of notes will not appear correct. And it will be difficult to identify chords properly when sight reading, at least for guitar and I suspect piano too.
If you've read some of my answers and comments, you'll be well aware of my view of some (a lot!) online stuff. I've been tripped up , in key E, seeing an Abm chord written. Just couldn't find it! But that's not exactly what I'm highlighting here - that's just some guitarist who didn't know better. This question has hopefully struck a chord - for wont of a better phrase..! I know which I prefer!
– Tim
2 days ago
1
I wonder/worry if you've hit on the source of this: the software that people are using. In Musescore, for example, you can't place a Cb or B# on the staff, even by using the up and down arrows. You have to place a C (or B) and then use the explicit sharp or flat tool to add the accidental. Likewise with double sharps and double flats - you have to go out of your way to notate them. It is not aware of the key signature when placing notes. Even if it were, as I mentioned in my comment, it's not always possible to determine the notation intention. So people might just be lazy.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I do use Musecsore and GuitarTux, and both have idiosyncrasies. However, I refuse to distribute things that are not "correct". I may get lazy about fixing them but if so I won't publish. I wouldn't want to screw up my students.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ToddWilcox Every version of Musescore I've ever used is certianly aware of the key signature when placing notes. If you have a key signature of (say) E major, clicking on or typing F (in note entry mode) will place an F#. Of course it won't have a sharp by it, but with the key signature it is still an F#. Selecting it and pressing UP will change it to Fx (F double-sharp) and pressing DOWN will change it to F natural.
– pizzapants184
2 days ago
1
@pizzapants184 I just checked and you're correct. I'm not sure why I've had trouble placing Cb and E# etc. in the past. Perhaps if I'm working way outside the key signature (which is very often). I know I've had to jump through hoops to get unusual accidentals placed in the past.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
add a comment |
When I was taking harmony theory my teacher would take points off for using enharmonic notes in a chord definition. He'd say D# is the sharp ninth of C, not Eb. And he is (was) correct. There is good reason to follow the correct theoretical naming convention. I also find it easier to sight read when the notes are in the correct chord form.
I have noticed that several open source music writing and tab programs will NOT place notes where I want them. Perhaps the option is there and I just don't know how to use it but I suspect that if it isn't obvious a lot of folks are going to ignore it. Hopefully this is a technology issue and not a lowering standards issue. Since every Tom, Dick, and Harry, can write and publish it's hard to know if you are referring to professional publications or junk you are finding on line. Perhaps you could make your question better by offering a few examples.
Some of it may very well be ignorance. Perhaps a young musician with little formal education is posting work and is not aware of the meaning behind the note names.
As for your last question, does it matter? I really think it does. For one thing enharmonic tones are a feature of equal tempered tuning and not in Just tuning. There is a real loss if information. The movement of notes will not appear correct. And it will be difficult to identify chords properly when sight reading, at least for guitar and I suspect piano too.
If you've read some of my answers and comments, you'll be well aware of my view of some (a lot!) online stuff. I've been tripped up , in key E, seeing an Abm chord written. Just couldn't find it! But that's not exactly what I'm highlighting here - that's just some guitarist who didn't know better. This question has hopefully struck a chord - for wont of a better phrase..! I know which I prefer!
– Tim
2 days ago
1
I wonder/worry if you've hit on the source of this: the software that people are using. In Musescore, for example, you can't place a Cb or B# on the staff, even by using the up and down arrows. You have to place a C (or B) and then use the explicit sharp or flat tool to add the accidental. Likewise with double sharps and double flats - you have to go out of your way to notate them. It is not aware of the key signature when placing notes. Even if it were, as I mentioned in my comment, it's not always possible to determine the notation intention. So people might just be lazy.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I do use Musecsore and GuitarTux, and both have idiosyncrasies. However, I refuse to distribute things that are not "correct". I may get lazy about fixing them but if so I won't publish. I wouldn't want to screw up my students.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ToddWilcox Every version of Musescore I've ever used is certianly aware of the key signature when placing notes. If you have a key signature of (say) E major, clicking on or typing F (in note entry mode) will place an F#. Of course it won't have a sharp by it, but with the key signature it is still an F#. Selecting it and pressing UP will change it to Fx (F double-sharp) and pressing DOWN will change it to F natural.
– pizzapants184
2 days ago
1
@pizzapants184 I just checked and you're correct. I'm not sure why I've had trouble placing Cb and E# etc. in the past. Perhaps if I'm working way outside the key signature (which is very often). I know I've had to jump through hoops to get unusual accidentals placed in the past.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
add a comment |
When I was taking harmony theory my teacher would take points off for using enharmonic notes in a chord definition. He'd say D# is the sharp ninth of C, not Eb. And he is (was) correct. There is good reason to follow the correct theoretical naming convention. I also find it easier to sight read when the notes are in the correct chord form.
I have noticed that several open source music writing and tab programs will NOT place notes where I want them. Perhaps the option is there and I just don't know how to use it but I suspect that if it isn't obvious a lot of folks are going to ignore it. Hopefully this is a technology issue and not a lowering standards issue. Since every Tom, Dick, and Harry, can write and publish it's hard to know if you are referring to professional publications or junk you are finding on line. Perhaps you could make your question better by offering a few examples.
Some of it may very well be ignorance. Perhaps a young musician with little formal education is posting work and is not aware of the meaning behind the note names.
As for your last question, does it matter? I really think it does. For one thing enharmonic tones are a feature of equal tempered tuning and not in Just tuning. There is a real loss if information. The movement of notes will not appear correct. And it will be difficult to identify chords properly when sight reading, at least for guitar and I suspect piano too.
When I was taking harmony theory my teacher would take points off for using enharmonic notes in a chord definition. He'd say D# is the sharp ninth of C, not Eb. And he is (was) correct. There is good reason to follow the correct theoretical naming convention. I also find it easier to sight read when the notes are in the correct chord form.
I have noticed that several open source music writing and tab programs will NOT place notes where I want them. Perhaps the option is there and I just don't know how to use it but I suspect that if it isn't obvious a lot of folks are going to ignore it. Hopefully this is a technology issue and not a lowering standards issue. Since every Tom, Dick, and Harry, can write and publish it's hard to know if you are referring to professional publications or junk you are finding on line. Perhaps you could make your question better by offering a few examples.
Some of it may very well be ignorance. Perhaps a young musician with little formal education is posting work and is not aware of the meaning behind the note names.
As for your last question, does it matter? I really think it does. For one thing enharmonic tones are a feature of equal tempered tuning and not in Just tuning. There is a real loss if information. The movement of notes will not appear correct. And it will be difficult to identify chords properly when sight reading, at least for guitar and I suspect piano too.
answered 2 days ago
ggcgggcg
4,953324
4,953324
If you've read some of my answers and comments, you'll be well aware of my view of some (a lot!) online stuff. I've been tripped up , in key E, seeing an Abm chord written. Just couldn't find it! But that's not exactly what I'm highlighting here - that's just some guitarist who didn't know better. This question has hopefully struck a chord - for wont of a better phrase..! I know which I prefer!
– Tim
2 days ago
1
I wonder/worry if you've hit on the source of this: the software that people are using. In Musescore, for example, you can't place a Cb or B# on the staff, even by using the up and down arrows. You have to place a C (or B) and then use the explicit sharp or flat tool to add the accidental. Likewise with double sharps and double flats - you have to go out of your way to notate them. It is not aware of the key signature when placing notes. Even if it were, as I mentioned in my comment, it's not always possible to determine the notation intention. So people might just be lazy.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I do use Musecsore and GuitarTux, and both have idiosyncrasies. However, I refuse to distribute things that are not "correct". I may get lazy about fixing them but if so I won't publish. I wouldn't want to screw up my students.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ToddWilcox Every version of Musescore I've ever used is certianly aware of the key signature when placing notes. If you have a key signature of (say) E major, clicking on or typing F (in note entry mode) will place an F#. Of course it won't have a sharp by it, but with the key signature it is still an F#. Selecting it and pressing UP will change it to Fx (F double-sharp) and pressing DOWN will change it to F natural.
– pizzapants184
2 days ago
1
@pizzapants184 I just checked and you're correct. I'm not sure why I've had trouble placing Cb and E# etc. in the past. Perhaps if I'm working way outside the key signature (which is very often). I know I've had to jump through hoops to get unusual accidentals placed in the past.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
add a comment |
If you've read some of my answers and comments, you'll be well aware of my view of some (a lot!) online stuff. I've been tripped up , in key E, seeing an Abm chord written. Just couldn't find it! But that's not exactly what I'm highlighting here - that's just some guitarist who didn't know better. This question has hopefully struck a chord - for wont of a better phrase..! I know which I prefer!
– Tim
2 days ago
1
I wonder/worry if you've hit on the source of this: the software that people are using. In Musescore, for example, you can't place a Cb or B# on the staff, even by using the up and down arrows. You have to place a C (or B) and then use the explicit sharp or flat tool to add the accidental. Likewise with double sharps and double flats - you have to go out of your way to notate them. It is not aware of the key signature when placing notes. Even if it were, as I mentioned in my comment, it's not always possible to determine the notation intention. So people might just be lazy.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I do use Musecsore and GuitarTux, and both have idiosyncrasies. However, I refuse to distribute things that are not "correct". I may get lazy about fixing them but if so I won't publish. I wouldn't want to screw up my students.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ToddWilcox Every version of Musescore I've ever used is certianly aware of the key signature when placing notes. If you have a key signature of (say) E major, clicking on or typing F (in note entry mode) will place an F#. Of course it won't have a sharp by it, but with the key signature it is still an F#. Selecting it and pressing UP will change it to Fx (F double-sharp) and pressing DOWN will change it to F natural.
– pizzapants184
2 days ago
1
@pizzapants184 I just checked and you're correct. I'm not sure why I've had trouble placing Cb and E# etc. in the past. Perhaps if I'm working way outside the key signature (which is very often). I know I've had to jump through hoops to get unusual accidentals placed in the past.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
If you've read some of my answers and comments, you'll be well aware of my view of some (a lot!) online stuff. I've been tripped up , in key E, seeing an Abm chord written. Just couldn't find it! But that's not exactly what I'm highlighting here - that's just some guitarist who didn't know better. This question has hopefully struck a chord - for wont of a better phrase..! I know which I prefer!
– Tim
2 days ago
If you've read some of my answers and comments, you'll be well aware of my view of some (a lot!) online stuff. I've been tripped up , in key E, seeing an Abm chord written. Just couldn't find it! But that's not exactly what I'm highlighting here - that's just some guitarist who didn't know better. This question has hopefully struck a chord - for wont of a better phrase..! I know which I prefer!
– Tim
2 days ago
1
1
I wonder/worry if you've hit on the source of this: the software that people are using. In Musescore, for example, you can't place a Cb or B# on the staff, even by using the up and down arrows. You have to place a C (or B) and then use the explicit sharp or flat tool to add the accidental. Likewise with double sharps and double flats - you have to go out of your way to notate them. It is not aware of the key signature when placing notes. Even if it were, as I mentioned in my comment, it's not always possible to determine the notation intention. So people might just be lazy.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
I wonder/worry if you've hit on the source of this: the software that people are using. In Musescore, for example, you can't place a Cb or B# on the staff, even by using the up and down arrows. You have to place a C (or B) and then use the explicit sharp or flat tool to add the accidental. Likewise with double sharps and double flats - you have to go out of your way to notate them. It is not aware of the key signature when placing notes. Even if it were, as I mentioned in my comment, it's not always possible to determine the notation intention. So people might just be lazy.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
1
I do use Musecsore and GuitarTux, and both have idiosyncrasies. However, I refuse to distribute things that are not "correct". I may get lazy about fixing them but if so I won't publish. I wouldn't want to screw up my students.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I do use Musecsore and GuitarTux, and both have idiosyncrasies. However, I refuse to distribute things that are not "correct". I may get lazy about fixing them but if so I won't publish. I wouldn't want to screw up my students.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
2
@ToddWilcox Every version of Musescore I've ever used is certianly aware of the key signature when placing notes. If you have a key signature of (say) E major, clicking on or typing F (in note entry mode) will place an F#. Of course it won't have a sharp by it, but with the key signature it is still an F#. Selecting it and pressing UP will change it to Fx (F double-sharp) and pressing DOWN will change it to F natural.
– pizzapants184
2 days ago
@ToddWilcox Every version of Musescore I've ever used is certianly aware of the key signature when placing notes. If you have a key signature of (say) E major, clicking on or typing F (in note entry mode) will place an F#. Of course it won't have a sharp by it, but with the key signature it is still an F#. Selecting it and pressing UP will change it to Fx (F double-sharp) and pressing DOWN will change it to F natural.
– pizzapants184
2 days ago
1
1
@pizzapants184 I just checked and you're correct. I'm not sure why I've had trouble placing Cb and E# etc. in the past. Perhaps if I'm working way outside the key signature (which is very often). I know I've had to jump through hoops to get unusual accidentals placed in the past.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
@pizzapants184 I just checked and you're correct. I'm not sure why I've had trouble placing Cb and E# etc. in the past. Perhaps if I'm working way outside the key signature (which is very often). I know I've had to jump through hoops to get unusual accidentals placed in the past.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
add a comment |
Most composers I know operate on two levels: theoretical and practical.
The difference between A and Bbb only matters for analytical purposes. When reading melodically double-flats and double-sharps can be difficult for performers to read because they lead to more diminished and augmented intervals (like G to Bbb, or Bbb to C) - which composers try to avoid notating.
The last step of the composition process for many composers is to go through each instruments' part and review it for readability. So, for instance, if a line goes Gb-Bbb-C, they will change that Bbb to an A because it will be clearer to a performer.
I don't necessarily think it's because the writers are lazy or ignorant of theory. It's the composer's job to convey the notes clearly to the performer, not to give them a theory lesson.
1
I disagree with your assessment of "difficult to read". On guitar it is much easier to read the whole chord as a unit and if enharmonic notes are used it really screws you up. That statement is relative.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ggcg I could probably be clearer. I'm referring to sight-reading the pitches melodically (one after another). If you're reading a stacked chord, then the double-flat may be clearer because it preserves the appearance of stacked thirds. My point is that theory shouldn't get in the way of clarity.
– Peter
2 days ago
Fair enough, I see your point.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I don't think this case is really what the OP is talking about. He's asking about chord mis-spellings (and I think also cases like D# major instead of the conventional Eb major)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
@MichaelCurtis I interpreted the question differently than you. The OP asked about "erroneous information" and whether it was put there to make "easier to read dots." He doesn't mention anything about chord misspellings or key signatures in the question.
– Peter
2 days ago
add a comment |
Most composers I know operate on two levels: theoretical and practical.
The difference between A and Bbb only matters for analytical purposes. When reading melodically double-flats and double-sharps can be difficult for performers to read because they lead to more diminished and augmented intervals (like G to Bbb, or Bbb to C) - which composers try to avoid notating.
The last step of the composition process for many composers is to go through each instruments' part and review it for readability. So, for instance, if a line goes Gb-Bbb-C, they will change that Bbb to an A because it will be clearer to a performer.
I don't necessarily think it's because the writers are lazy or ignorant of theory. It's the composer's job to convey the notes clearly to the performer, not to give them a theory lesson.
1
I disagree with your assessment of "difficult to read". On guitar it is much easier to read the whole chord as a unit and if enharmonic notes are used it really screws you up. That statement is relative.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ggcg I could probably be clearer. I'm referring to sight-reading the pitches melodically (one after another). If you're reading a stacked chord, then the double-flat may be clearer because it preserves the appearance of stacked thirds. My point is that theory shouldn't get in the way of clarity.
– Peter
2 days ago
Fair enough, I see your point.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I don't think this case is really what the OP is talking about. He's asking about chord mis-spellings (and I think also cases like D# major instead of the conventional Eb major)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
@MichaelCurtis I interpreted the question differently than you. The OP asked about "erroneous information" and whether it was put there to make "easier to read dots." He doesn't mention anything about chord misspellings or key signatures in the question.
– Peter
2 days ago
add a comment |
Most composers I know operate on two levels: theoretical and practical.
The difference between A and Bbb only matters for analytical purposes. When reading melodically double-flats and double-sharps can be difficult for performers to read because they lead to more diminished and augmented intervals (like G to Bbb, or Bbb to C) - which composers try to avoid notating.
The last step of the composition process for many composers is to go through each instruments' part and review it for readability. So, for instance, if a line goes Gb-Bbb-C, they will change that Bbb to an A because it will be clearer to a performer.
I don't necessarily think it's because the writers are lazy or ignorant of theory. It's the composer's job to convey the notes clearly to the performer, not to give them a theory lesson.
Most composers I know operate on two levels: theoretical and practical.
The difference between A and Bbb only matters for analytical purposes. When reading melodically double-flats and double-sharps can be difficult for performers to read because they lead to more diminished and augmented intervals (like G to Bbb, or Bbb to C) - which composers try to avoid notating.
The last step of the composition process for many composers is to go through each instruments' part and review it for readability. So, for instance, if a line goes Gb-Bbb-C, they will change that Bbb to an A because it will be clearer to a performer.
I don't necessarily think it's because the writers are lazy or ignorant of theory. It's the composer's job to convey the notes clearly to the performer, not to give them a theory lesson.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
PeterPeter
1,506214
1,506214
1
I disagree with your assessment of "difficult to read". On guitar it is much easier to read the whole chord as a unit and if enharmonic notes are used it really screws you up. That statement is relative.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ggcg I could probably be clearer. I'm referring to sight-reading the pitches melodically (one after another). If you're reading a stacked chord, then the double-flat may be clearer because it preserves the appearance of stacked thirds. My point is that theory shouldn't get in the way of clarity.
– Peter
2 days ago
Fair enough, I see your point.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I don't think this case is really what the OP is talking about. He's asking about chord mis-spellings (and I think also cases like D# major instead of the conventional Eb major)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
@MichaelCurtis I interpreted the question differently than you. The OP asked about "erroneous information" and whether it was put there to make "easier to read dots." He doesn't mention anything about chord misspellings or key signatures in the question.
– Peter
2 days ago
add a comment |
1
I disagree with your assessment of "difficult to read". On guitar it is much easier to read the whole chord as a unit and if enharmonic notes are used it really screws you up. That statement is relative.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
@ggcg I could probably be clearer. I'm referring to sight-reading the pitches melodically (one after another). If you're reading a stacked chord, then the double-flat may be clearer because it preserves the appearance of stacked thirds. My point is that theory shouldn't get in the way of clarity.
– Peter
2 days ago
Fair enough, I see your point.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I don't think this case is really what the OP is talking about. He's asking about chord mis-spellings (and I think also cases like D# major instead of the conventional Eb major)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
@MichaelCurtis I interpreted the question differently than you. The OP asked about "erroneous information" and whether it was put there to make "easier to read dots." He doesn't mention anything about chord misspellings or key signatures in the question.
– Peter
2 days ago
1
1
I disagree with your assessment of "difficult to read". On guitar it is much easier to read the whole chord as a unit and if enharmonic notes are used it really screws you up. That statement is relative.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I disagree with your assessment of "difficult to read". On guitar it is much easier to read the whole chord as a unit and if enharmonic notes are used it really screws you up. That statement is relative.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
2
@ggcg I could probably be clearer. I'm referring to sight-reading the pitches melodically (one after another). If you're reading a stacked chord, then the double-flat may be clearer because it preserves the appearance of stacked thirds. My point is that theory shouldn't get in the way of clarity.
– Peter
2 days ago
@ggcg I could probably be clearer. I'm referring to sight-reading the pitches melodically (one after another). If you're reading a stacked chord, then the double-flat may be clearer because it preserves the appearance of stacked thirds. My point is that theory shouldn't get in the way of clarity.
– Peter
2 days ago
Fair enough, I see your point.
– ggcg
2 days ago
Fair enough, I see your point.
– ggcg
2 days ago
I don't think this case is really what the OP is talking about. He's asking about chord mis-spellings (and I think also cases like D# major instead of the conventional Eb major)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
I don't think this case is really what the OP is talking about. He's asking about chord mis-spellings (and I think also cases like D# major instead of the conventional Eb major)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
@MichaelCurtis I interpreted the question differently than you. The OP asked about "erroneous information" and whether it was put there to make "easier to read dots." He doesn't mention anything about chord misspellings or key signatures in the question.
– Peter
2 days ago
@MichaelCurtis I interpreted the question differently than you. The OP asked about "erroneous information" and whether it was put there to make "easier to read dots." He doesn't mention anything about chord misspellings or key signatures in the question.
– Peter
2 days ago
add a comment |
It may be erroneous and the smartest thing to write at the same time.
Consider film scores, here a piece in any key will often be written without any sharps or flats at the key signature. It would look like it were considered in C maj or Amin, wich may be utterly untrue, but it makes practical sense: Musicians read it easily and do not miss as many flats / sharps by accident. Is it "correct" ? Probably not.
I like writing my stuff in the correct way, but sometimes I will change it in for practical reasons... If one analyzes it, he will find out soon enough. But yeah... my guess it is lazyness, and giving in to lazyness, time pressure and so on...
New contributor
add a comment |
It may be erroneous and the smartest thing to write at the same time.
Consider film scores, here a piece in any key will often be written without any sharps or flats at the key signature. It would look like it were considered in C maj or Amin, wich may be utterly untrue, but it makes practical sense: Musicians read it easily and do not miss as many flats / sharps by accident. Is it "correct" ? Probably not.
I like writing my stuff in the correct way, but sometimes I will change it in for practical reasons... If one analyzes it, he will find out soon enough. But yeah... my guess it is lazyness, and giving in to lazyness, time pressure and so on...
New contributor
add a comment |
It may be erroneous and the smartest thing to write at the same time.
Consider film scores, here a piece in any key will often be written without any sharps or flats at the key signature. It would look like it were considered in C maj or Amin, wich may be utterly untrue, but it makes practical sense: Musicians read it easily and do not miss as many flats / sharps by accident. Is it "correct" ? Probably not.
I like writing my stuff in the correct way, but sometimes I will change it in for practical reasons... If one analyzes it, he will find out soon enough. But yeah... my guess it is lazyness, and giving in to lazyness, time pressure and so on...
New contributor
It may be erroneous and the smartest thing to write at the same time.
Consider film scores, here a piece in any key will often be written without any sharps or flats at the key signature. It would look like it were considered in C maj or Amin, wich may be utterly untrue, but it makes practical sense: Musicians read it easily and do not miss as many flats / sharps by accident. Is it "correct" ? Probably not.
I like writing my stuff in the correct way, but sometimes I will change it in for practical reasons... If one analyzes it, he will find out soon enough. But yeah... my guess it is lazyness, and giving in to lazyness, time pressure and so on...
New contributor
edited 2 days ago
user45266
2,437327
2,437327
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
ChaiChai
1692
1692
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
Many jazz arrangers will substitute B for Cb, even when it's the b7 in Db7 or the minor third in Abm. It sends me mad, but it's the convention in that style. They'll spell a dim7 chord whatever way avoids a 'difficult' accidental.
It's very common in printed song copies to see a diminished 7th chord mis-spelt, in fact it would be quite remarkable to see Cdim7 spelt with a Bbb. This doesn't worry me in the slightest!
In the 'classical' and academic worlds you're more likely to see one spelt 'correctly'. But would you fault Beethoven for this? Why not?
add a comment |
Many jazz arrangers will substitute B for Cb, even when it's the b7 in Db7 or the minor third in Abm. It sends me mad, but it's the convention in that style. They'll spell a dim7 chord whatever way avoids a 'difficult' accidental.
It's very common in printed song copies to see a diminished 7th chord mis-spelt, in fact it would be quite remarkable to see Cdim7 spelt with a Bbb. This doesn't worry me in the slightest!
In the 'classical' and academic worlds you're more likely to see one spelt 'correctly'. But would you fault Beethoven for this? Why not?
add a comment |
Many jazz arrangers will substitute B for Cb, even when it's the b7 in Db7 or the minor third in Abm. It sends me mad, but it's the convention in that style. They'll spell a dim7 chord whatever way avoids a 'difficult' accidental.
It's very common in printed song copies to see a diminished 7th chord mis-spelt, in fact it would be quite remarkable to see Cdim7 spelt with a Bbb. This doesn't worry me in the slightest!
In the 'classical' and academic worlds you're more likely to see one spelt 'correctly'. But would you fault Beethoven for this? Why not?
Many jazz arrangers will substitute B for Cb, even when it's the b7 in Db7 or the minor third in Abm. It sends me mad, but it's the convention in that style. They'll spell a dim7 chord whatever way avoids a 'difficult' accidental.
It's very common in printed song copies to see a diminished 7th chord mis-spelt, in fact it would be quite remarkable to see Cdim7 spelt with a Bbb. This doesn't worry me in the slightest!
In the 'classical' and academic worlds you're more likely to see one spelt 'correctly'. But would you fault Beethoven for this? Why not?
answered 2 days ago
Laurence PayneLaurence Payne
32.6k1560
32.6k1560
add a comment |
add a comment |
My feeling is that these mistakes are made when the writer isn't used to reading the staff or doesn't understand the harmonic implications of enharmonic spellings.
...does it really matter?
I say it matter only if you want to be able to refer to chords by letter names and accidentals and if you want to consistently describe relative relations of tones and chords.
The point can be illustrated by pushing things to the absurd. How about a circle of diminished sixths? Or a C major chord spelled Dbb E Fx
? Those would be obviously silly to even the beginning student.
It shouldn't be too hard to go from that beginner level to explain why F A C D#
resolves in Am
as Gr+6|i6/4 V
functioning as an inverted, altered subdominant, but F A C Eb
resolves in Bb
as V7|I
functioning as a dominant, and the difference is implied by the enharmonic spellings even though both chords in isolation sound like dominant seventh chords.
When people write Co7
, spell it C Eb Gb A
, and then resolve it to C#
major they need to be corrected... on both errors!
It's totally unacceptable in educational materials.
If it resolves to C♯ major, should it then be B♯ diminished 7th?
– user45266
2 days ago
Yes. But, unless there is some special reason to do otherwise, the second chord should be changed toDb
major. (Key signature of 5 flats versus 7 sharps for C#)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
Okay, fair enough. Funny enough, B♯ diminished 7th does contain the note A! :)
– user45266
2 days ago
I re-worded that sentence to show what I meant - two errors in spelling
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
add a comment |
My feeling is that these mistakes are made when the writer isn't used to reading the staff or doesn't understand the harmonic implications of enharmonic spellings.
...does it really matter?
I say it matter only if you want to be able to refer to chords by letter names and accidentals and if you want to consistently describe relative relations of tones and chords.
The point can be illustrated by pushing things to the absurd. How about a circle of diminished sixths? Or a C major chord spelled Dbb E Fx
? Those would be obviously silly to even the beginning student.
It shouldn't be too hard to go from that beginner level to explain why F A C D#
resolves in Am
as Gr+6|i6/4 V
functioning as an inverted, altered subdominant, but F A C Eb
resolves in Bb
as V7|I
functioning as a dominant, and the difference is implied by the enharmonic spellings even though both chords in isolation sound like dominant seventh chords.
When people write Co7
, spell it C Eb Gb A
, and then resolve it to C#
major they need to be corrected... on both errors!
It's totally unacceptable in educational materials.
If it resolves to C♯ major, should it then be B♯ diminished 7th?
– user45266
2 days ago
Yes. But, unless there is some special reason to do otherwise, the second chord should be changed toDb
major. (Key signature of 5 flats versus 7 sharps for C#)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
Okay, fair enough. Funny enough, B♯ diminished 7th does contain the note A! :)
– user45266
2 days ago
I re-worded that sentence to show what I meant - two errors in spelling
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
add a comment |
My feeling is that these mistakes are made when the writer isn't used to reading the staff or doesn't understand the harmonic implications of enharmonic spellings.
...does it really matter?
I say it matter only if you want to be able to refer to chords by letter names and accidentals and if you want to consistently describe relative relations of tones and chords.
The point can be illustrated by pushing things to the absurd. How about a circle of diminished sixths? Or a C major chord spelled Dbb E Fx
? Those would be obviously silly to even the beginning student.
It shouldn't be too hard to go from that beginner level to explain why F A C D#
resolves in Am
as Gr+6|i6/4 V
functioning as an inverted, altered subdominant, but F A C Eb
resolves in Bb
as V7|I
functioning as a dominant, and the difference is implied by the enharmonic spellings even though both chords in isolation sound like dominant seventh chords.
When people write Co7
, spell it C Eb Gb A
, and then resolve it to C#
major they need to be corrected... on both errors!
It's totally unacceptable in educational materials.
My feeling is that these mistakes are made when the writer isn't used to reading the staff or doesn't understand the harmonic implications of enharmonic spellings.
...does it really matter?
I say it matter only if you want to be able to refer to chords by letter names and accidentals and if you want to consistently describe relative relations of tones and chords.
The point can be illustrated by pushing things to the absurd. How about a circle of diminished sixths? Or a C major chord spelled Dbb E Fx
? Those would be obviously silly to even the beginning student.
It shouldn't be too hard to go from that beginner level to explain why F A C D#
resolves in Am
as Gr+6|i6/4 V
functioning as an inverted, altered subdominant, but F A C Eb
resolves in Bb
as V7|I
functioning as a dominant, and the difference is implied by the enharmonic spellings even though both chords in isolation sound like dominant seventh chords.
When people write Co7
, spell it C Eb Gb A
, and then resolve it to C#
major they need to be corrected... on both errors!
It's totally unacceptable in educational materials.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
Michael CurtisMichael Curtis
6,446527
6,446527
If it resolves to C♯ major, should it then be B♯ diminished 7th?
– user45266
2 days ago
Yes. But, unless there is some special reason to do otherwise, the second chord should be changed toDb
major. (Key signature of 5 flats versus 7 sharps for C#)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
Okay, fair enough. Funny enough, B♯ diminished 7th does contain the note A! :)
– user45266
2 days ago
I re-worded that sentence to show what I meant - two errors in spelling
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
add a comment |
If it resolves to C♯ major, should it then be B♯ diminished 7th?
– user45266
2 days ago
Yes. But, unless there is some special reason to do otherwise, the second chord should be changed toDb
major. (Key signature of 5 flats versus 7 sharps for C#)
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
Okay, fair enough. Funny enough, B♯ diminished 7th does contain the note A! :)
– user45266
2 days ago
I re-worded that sentence to show what I meant - two errors in spelling
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
If it resolves to C♯ major, should it then be B♯ diminished 7th?
– user45266
2 days ago
If it resolves to C♯ major, should it then be B♯ diminished 7th?
– user45266
2 days ago
Yes. But, unless there is some special reason to do otherwise, the second chord should be changed to
Db
major. (Key signature of 5 flats versus 7 sharps for C#)– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
Yes. But, unless there is some special reason to do otherwise, the second chord should be changed to
Db
major. (Key signature of 5 flats versus 7 sharps for C#)– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
Okay, fair enough. Funny enough, B♯ diminished 7th does contain the note A! :)
– user45266
2 days ago
Okay, fair enough. Funny enough, B♯ diminished 7th does contain the note A! :)
– user45266
2 days ago
I re-worded that sentence to show what I meant - two errors in spelling
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
I re-worded that sentence to show what I meant - two errors in spelling
– Michael Curtis
2 days ago
add a comment |
With jazz, at least, I think there is an underlying reason to use an easier spelling: the enharmonic function can actually be contradictory between melody and harmony.
For example, I love using a Db7b9 chord (or an Fdim7/Db) for the penultimate note of "A Christmas Song," which is melodically a D natural. But, harmonically, that's an Ebb in the chord, the b9 of the Db7b9 chord. (And, no, I can't spell it as a C#7b9 chord, as that can't resolve to the final C chord.)
And this is entirely an accepted harmonization. That suggests heavily that jazz doesn't maintain the distinction between enharmonic chords.
This can happen even outside of jazz, as long as someone is playing with harmony in a way that presupposes equal temperament. But it's so common in jazz that it makes sense that they don't even bother.
(I also note that, I'm already cheating one note, I also go ahead and use a B instead of a Cb. The stacked thirds are already obscured either way.)
add a comment |
With jazz, at least, I think there is an underlying reason to use an easier spelling: the enharmonic function can actually be contradictory between melody and harmony.
For example, I love using a Db7b9 chord (or an Fdim7/Db) for the penultimate note of "A Christmas Song," which is melodically a D natural. But, harmonically, that's an Ebb in the chord, the b9 of the Db7b9 chord. (And, no, I can't spell it as a C#7b9 chord, as that can't resolve to the final C chord.)
And this is entirely an accepted harmonization. That suggests heavily that jazz doesn't maintain the distinction between enharmonic chords.
This can happen even outside of jazz, as long as someone is playing with harmony in a way that presupposes equal temperament. But it's so common in jazz that it makes sense that they don't even bother.
(I also note that, I'm already cheating one note, I also go ahead and use a B instead of a Cb. The stacked thirds are already obscured either way.)
add a comment |
With jazz, at least, I think there is an underlying reason to use an easier spelling: the enharmonic function can actually be contradictory between melody and harmony.
For example, I love using a Db7b9 chord (or an Fdim7/Db) for the penultimate note of "A Christmas Song," which is melodically a D natural. But, harmonically, that's an Ebb in the chord, the b9 of the Db7b9 chord. (And, no, I can't spell it as a C#7b9 chord, as that can't resolve to the final C chord.)
And this is entirely an accepted harmonization. That suggests heavily that jazz doesn't maintain the distinction between enharmonic chords.
This can happen even outside of jazz, as long as someone is playing with harmony in a way that presupposes equal temperament. But it's so common in jazz that it makes sense that they don't even bother.
(I also note that, I'm already cheating one note, I also go ahead and use a B instead of a Cb. The stacked thirds are already obscured either way.)
With jazz, at least, I think there is an underlying reason to use an easier spelling: the enharmonic function can actually be contradictory between melody and harmony.
For example, I love using a Db7b9 chord (or an Fdim7/Db) for the penultimate note of "A Christmas Song," which is melodically a D natural. But, harmonically, that's an Ebb in the chord, the b9 of the Db7b9 chord. (And, no, I can't spell it as a C#7b9 chord, as that can't resolve to the final C chord.)
And this is entirely an accepted harmonization. That suggests heavily that jazz doesn't maintain the distinction between enharmonic chords.
This can happen even outside of jazz, as long as someone is playing with harmony in a way that presupposes equal temperament. But it's so common in jazz that it makes sense that they don't even bother.
(I also note that, I'm already cheating one note, I also go ahead and use a B instead of a Cb. The stacked thirds are already obscured either way.)
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
trlklytrlkly
36717
36717
add a comment |
add a comment |
You've already answered your question: some notation may be ignorance, some in purpose to make it easier for reading.
But there seems to be another reason: toward a modern notation!
as they speak about traditional notation there must be a movement to change things:
http://musicnotation.org/tutorials/enharmonic-equivalents/
It says:
„Various Approaches
There are at least three different approaches to the representation of enharmonic equivalents in chromatic staff notation systems:
- Not Explicitly Differentiating Between Enharmonic Equivalents
…while assuming twelve-tone equal temperament for intonation and/or relying on contextual cues and conventions for harmonic/melodic function and intonation.“ ...
and:
These approaches involve nomenclature as well, since the traditional note and interval names make a distinction between enharmonic equivalents. For example, the first approach above lends itself to using a novel nomenclature for notes and intervals, otherwise the names of some notes and intervals would remain ambiguous.
„To conclude, there are different views on just how important it is to distinguish between enharmonic equivalents in music notation, and on how not doing so might affect the understanding of their intonation and tonal function. Fortunately, there are also corresponding approaches to representing them (or not) in a chromatic staff notation system.„
In orthography the rules about correct writing are adapted to errors and ignorance. When I read on facebook it seems that today most german (even teachers) aren‘t able to differ the article das and the relative pronoun das from the conjuction dass. You can find everythig! Why should it be different in music notation? I‘m not a purist nor a culture pessimist. But if you consider that most adult leave school as musical analphabeths after nine years of 2 lessons of music ... it‘s just ignorance. But there are 2 kinds of ignorance: you don‘t know it better or you just don‘t mind. Does it matter?
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
add a comment |
You've already answered your question: some notation may be ignorance, some in purpose to make it easier for reading.
But there seems to be another reason: toward a modern notation!
as they speak about traditional notation there must be a movement to change things:
http://musicnotation.org/tutorials/enharmonic-equivalents/
It says:
„Various Approaches
There are at least three different approaches to the representation of enharmonic equivalents in chromatic staff notation systems:
- Not Explicitly Differentiating Between Enharmonic Equivalents
…while assuming twelve-tone equal temperament for intonation and/or relying on contextual cues and conventions for harmonic/melodic function and intonation.“ ...
and:
These approaches involve nomenclature as well, since the traditional note and interval names make a distinction between enharmonic equivalents. For example, the first approach above lends itself to using a novel nomenclature for notes and intervals, otherwise the names of some notes and intervals would remain ambiguous.
„To conclude, there are different views on just how important it is to distinguish between enharmonic equivalents in music notation, and on how not doing so might affect the understanding of their intonation and tonal function. Fortunately, there are also corresponding approaches to representing them (or not) in a chromatic staff notation system.„
In orthography the rules about correct writing are adapted to errors and ignorance. When I read on facebook it seems that today most german (even teachers) aren‘t able to differ the article das and the relative pronoun das from the conjuction dass. You can find everythig! Why should it be different in music notation? I‘m not a purist nor a culture pessimist. But if you consider that most adult leave school as musical analphabeths after nine years of 2 lessons of music ... it‘s just ignorance. But there are 2 kinds of ignorance: you don‘t know it better or you just don‘t mind. Does it matter?
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
add a comment |
You've already answered your question: some notation may be ignorance, some in purpose to make it easier for reading.
But there seems to be another reason: toward a modern notation!
as they speak about traditional notation there must be a movement to change things:
http://musicnotation.org/tutorials/enharmonic-equivalents/
It says:
„Various Approaches
There are at least three different approaches to the representation of enharmonic equivalents in chromatic staff notation systems:
- Not Explicitly Differentiating Between Enharmonic Equivalents
…while assuming twelve-tone equal temperament for intonation and/or relying on contextual cues and conventions for harmonic/melodic function and intonation.“ ...
and:
These approaches involve nomenclature as well, since the traditional note and interval names make a distinction between enharmonic equivalents. For example, the first approach above lends itself to using a novel nomenclature for notes and intervals, otherwise the names of some notes and intervals would remain ambiguous.
„To conclude, there are different views on just how important it is to distinguish between enharmonic equivalents in music notation, and on how not doing so might affect the understanding of their intonation and tonal function. Fortunately, there are also corresponding approaches to representing them (or not) in a chromatic staff notation system.„
You've already answered your question: some notation may be ignorance, some in purpose to make it easier for reading.
But there seems to be another reason: toward a modern notation!
as they speak about traditional notation there must be a movement to change things:
http://musicnotation.org/tutorials/enharmonic-equivalents/
It says:
„Various Approaches
There are at least three different approaches to the representation of enharmonic equivalents in chromatic staff notation systems:
- Not Explicitly Differentiating Between Enharmonic Equivalents
…while assuming twelve-tone equal temperament for intonation and/or relying on contextual cues and conventions for harmonic/melodic function and intonation.“ ...
and:
These approaches involve nomenclature as well, since the traditional note and interval names make a distinction between enharmonic equivalents. For example, the first approach above lends itself to using a novel nomenclature for notes and intervals, otherwise the names of some notes and intervals would remain ambiguous.
„To conclude, there are different views on just how important it is to distinguish between enharmonic equivalents in music notation, and on how not doing so might affect the understanding of their intonation and tonal function. Fortunately, there are also corresponding approaches to representing them (or not) in a chromatic staff notation system.„
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
39312
39312
In orthography the rules about correct writing are adapted to errors and ignorance. When I read on facebook it seems that today most german (even teachers) aren‘t able to differ the article das and the relative pronoun das from the conjuction dass. You can find everythig! Why should it be different in music notation? I‘m not a purist nor a culture pessimist. But if you consider that most adult leave school as musical analphabeths after nine years of 2 lessons of music ... it‘s just ignorance. But there are 2 kinds of ignorance: you don‘t know it better or you just don‘t mind. Does it matter?
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
add a comment |
In orthography the rules about correct writing are adapted to errors and ignorance. When I read on facebook it seems that today most german (even teachers) aren‘t able to differ the article das and the relative pronoun das from the conjuction dass. You can find everythig! Why should it be different in music notation? I‘m not a purist nor a culture pessimist. But if you consider that most adult leave school as musical analphabeths after nine years of 2 lessons of music ... it‘s just ignorance. But there are 2 kinds of ignorance: you don‘t know it better or you just don‘t mind. Does it matter?
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
In orthography the rules about correct writing are adapted to errors and ignorance. When I read on facebook it seems that today most german (even teachers) aren‘t able to differ the article das and the relative pronoun das from the conjuction dass. You can find everythig! Why should it be different in music notation? I‘m not a purist nor a culture pessimist. But if you consider that most adult leave school as musical analphabeths after nine years of 2 lessons of music ... it‘s just ignorance. But there are 2 kinds of ignorance: you don‘t know it better or you just don‘t mind. Does it matter?
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
In orthography the rules about correct writing are adapted to errors and ignorance. When I read on facebook it seems that today most german (even teachers) aren‘t able to differ the article das and the relative pronoun das from the conjuction dass. You can find everythig! Why should it be different in music notation? I‘m not a purist nor a culture pessimist. But if you consider that most adult leave school as musical analphabeths after nine years of 2 lessons of music ... it‘s just ignorance. But there are 2 kinds of ignorance: you don‘t know it better or you just don‘t mind. Does it matter?
– Albrecht Hügli
2 days ago
add a comment |
Í‘ve overlooked the term publishers in your question. Now I‘ll answer a pretty different argument. There are series of pop music and classic pieces like easy piano of sikorski edition or yamaha publishing. Who wants to publish music that can‘t be read by beginners of keyboard playing? (Some may say: but the easy reading aspect was already mentioned. But I want to emohasize the commercial aspectfor the publishers.
Computer notation programs can manage this (but they still need a great work of editing by hand, this needs time and will rise the costs for a product that would better been sold without editing the enharmonics.)
The term publishers was edited in without reference to me later. Not overlooked - not there.
– Tim
23 hours ago
add a comment |
Í‘ve overlooked the term publishers in your question. Now I‘ll answer a pretty different argument. There are series of pop music and classic pieces like easy piano of sikorski edition or yamaha publishing. Who wants to publish music that can‘t be read by beginners of keyboard playing? (Some may say: but the easy reading aspect was already mentioned. But I want to emohasize the commercial aspectfor the publishers.
Computer notation programs can manage this (but they still need a great work of editing by hand, this needs time and will rise the costs for a product that would better been sold without editing the enharmonics.)
The term publishers was edited in without reference to me later. Not overlooked - not there.
– Tim
23 hours ago
add a comment |
Í‘ve overlooked the term publishers in your question. Now I‘ll answer a pretty different argument. There are series of pop music and classic pieces like easy piano of sikorski edition or yamaha publishing. Who wants to publish music that can‘t be read by beginners of keyboard playing? (Some may say: but the easy reading aspect was already mentioned. But I want to emohasize the commercial aspectfor the publishers.
Computer notation programs can manage this (but they still need a great work of editing by hand, this needs time and will rise the costs for a product that would better been sold without editing the enharmonics.)
Í‘ve overlooked the term publishers in your question. Now I‘ll answer a pretty different argument. There are series of pop music and classic pieces like easy piano of sikorski edition or yamaha publishing. Who wants to publish music that can‘t be read by beginners of keyboard playing? (Some may say: but the easy reading aspect was already mentioned. But I want to emohasize the commercial aspectfor the publishers.
Computer notation programs can manage this (but they still need a great work of editing by hand, this needs time and will rise the costs for a product that would better been sold without editing the enharmonics.)
edited 23 hours ago
answered 23 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
39312
39312
The term publishers was edited in without reference to me later. Not overlooked - not there.
– Tim
23 hours ago
add a comment |
The term publishers was edited in without reference to me later. Not overlooked - not there.
– Tim
23 hours ago
The term publishers was edited in without reference to me later. Not overlooked - not there.
– Tim
23 hours ago
The term publishers was edited in without reference to me later. Not overlooked - not there.
– Tim
23 hours ago
add a comment |
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3
Yeah, the Levine book is notorious for this, and it bothers me because it is meant to be an educational book. Jazz, generally speaking, is more free with enharmonic spellings than classical music, though.
– Peter
2 days ago
2
How do you know when you see the dots for C, Eb, and A that it's meant to be a C diminished chord? Are there chord names above it? It could be an A diminished chord spelled correctly. Of course you may have just been using that as an example, but I think my question still stands - perhaps what you think was intended by the notation isn't what was intended. Pivoting to assuming you're correct, I have noticed that notation software tends to force notes to the next letter instead of adding an accidental. If you want a double flat or a Cb, you have to go out of your way to do it manually.
– Todd Wilcox
2 days ago
1
I have Levine's book, and generally I like it. Enharmonic spellings do annoy me but I am more used to seeing flagrant mistakes. I think this is not what you are referring to here. I once had a musical score that was two guitar parts fused, along with a key change. The two parts were not lined up (off by several measures) and one of the parts did not have the key changed. Needless to say that sounded like orchestrated Free form Acid Jazz until we fixed it.
– ggcg
2 days ago
2
Jazz enharmonics have to be more loose, I think, because the same note can function enharmonically in different ways. For example, I play a Db7b9 for the penultimate note of "The Christmas Song." The melody has a D-natural, but the chord has an E-double-flat. (And, no, I can't make a C# chord as then you have a different contradiction--resolving a C# to C.) Extended harmony to some extent expects equal temperament.
– trlkly
yesterday
2
Since this question got into Hot Network Question, might consider a better title to reflect the real problem (was it about "notation with enharmonic spelling"? I'm not knowledgable on this topic, so I'm not sure)
– Andrew T.
yesterday