How insulated is guaranteed funding from an economic slowdown?
I received an offer for five years of guaranteed PhD funding. However, various sources have been prognosticating another recession for sometime soon.
Between a science-hostile administration and a recession; I would be worried about funding to NSF and NIH.
Does a (university) department guaranteeing funds to their students mean that those dollars already exist in their bank account? Even five years of a stipend is not much compared to the greater cost of research in my field. Is there any chance a few years of slow awards could affect graduate student funding?
graduate-school funding united-states
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show 1 more comment
I received an offer for five years of guaranteed PhD funding. However, various sources have been prognosticating another recession for sometime soon.
Between a science-hostile administration and a recession; I would be worried about funding to NSF and NIH.
Does a (university) department guaranteeing funds to their students mean that those dollars already exist in their bank account? Even five years of a stipend is not much compared to the greater cost of research in my field. Is there any chance a few years of slow awards could affect graduate student funding?
graduate-school funding united-states
Note that "department" is a bit ambiguous here. It could mean a department of the US government or a department of a university.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
Also note that in every department I am aware of, the guarantee of funding has asterisks (if the department gets axed for instance, or the University declares a financial emergency, many Universities can even dismiss tenured faculty under such conditions, so guarantee is not "we put $X of gold bullion in a safe in the basement to cover your funding"). Slower funding can mean that less students have research-based (RA) positions, teaching loads increase and more students must teach for funding, etc. There are lots of ways to "manage people out the door" as well. All ventures as risky.
– BrianH
yesterday
@Buffy Sorry for the confusion. Do US departments guarantee funds to specific graduate students? Are you thinking like the GFRP?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
Offer letters from graduate programs in the US frequently include "weasel words" that say that your funding is subject to the department having funds available. It's always possible that something really bad could happen and leave you without support.
– Brian Borchers
yesterday
How would the answer to this question matter in your decision-making? If the answer is that, in general, your funding could have some small probability of evaporating, are you then going to say, "Oh well, I won't do a PhD after all?"
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
I received an offer for five years of guaranteed PhD funding. However, various sources have been prognosticating another recession for sometime soon.
Between a science-hostile administration and a recession; I would be worried about funding to NSF and NIH.
Does a (university) department guaranteeing funds to their students mean that those dollars already exist in their bank account? Even five years of a stipend is not much compared to the greater cost of research in my field. Is there any chance a few years of slow awards could affect graduate student funding?
graduate-school funding united-states
I received an offer for five years of guaranteed PhD funding. However, various sources have been prognosticating another recession for sometime soon.
Between a science-hostile administration and a recession; I would be worried about funding to NSF and NIH.
Does a (university) department guaranteeing funds to their students mean that those dollars already exist in their bank account? Even five years of a stipend is not much compared to the greater cost of research in my field. Is there any chance a few years of slow awards could affect graduate student funding?
graduate-school funding united-states
graduate-school funding united-states
edited yesterday
Azor Ahai
asked yesterday
Azor AhaiAzor Ahai
4,05311838
4,05311838
Note that "department" is a bit ambiguous here. It could mean a department of the US government or a department of a university.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
Also note that in every department I am aware of, the guarantee of funding has asterisks (if the department gets axed for instance, or the University declares a financial emergency, many Universities can even dismiss tenured faculty under such conditions, so guarantee is not "we put $X of gold bullion in a safe in the basement to cover your funding"). Slower funding can mean that less students have research-based (RA) positions, teaching loads increase and more students must teach for funding, etc. There are lots of ways to "manage people out the door" as well. All ventures as risky.
– BrianH
yesterday
@Buffy Sorry for the confusion. Do US departments guarantee funds to specific graduate students? Are you thinking like the GFRP?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
Offer letters from graduate programs in the US frequently include "weasel words" that say that your funding is subject to the department having funds available. It's always possible that something really bad could happen and leave you without support.
– Brian Borchers
yesterday
How would the answer to this question matter in your decision-making? If the answer is that, in general, your funding could have some small probability of evaporating, are you then going to say, "Oh well, I won't do a PhD after all?"
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Note that "department" is a bit ambiguous here. It could mean a department of the US government or a department of a university.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
Also note that in every department I am aware of, the guarantee of funding has asterisks (if the department gets axed for instance, or the University declares a financial emergency, many Universities can even dismiss tenured faculty under such conditions, so guarantee is not "we put $X of gold bullion in a safe in the basement to cover your funding"). Slower funding can mean that less students have research-based (RA) positions, teaching loads increase and more students must teach for funding, etc. There are lots of ways to "manage people out the door" as well. All ventures as risky.
– BrianH
yesterday
@Buffy Sorry for the confusion. Do US departments guarantee funds to specific graduate students? Are you thinking like the GFRP?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
Offer letters from graduate programs in the US frequently include "weasel words" that say that your funding is subject to the department having funds available. It's always possible that something really bad could happen and leave you without support.
– Brian Borchers
yesterday
How would the answer to this question matter in your decision-making? If the answer is that, in general, your funding could have some small probability of evaporating, are you then going to say, "Oh well, I won't do a PhD after all?"
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
Note that "department" is a bit ambiguous here. It could mean a department of the US government or a department of a university.
– Buffy
yesterday
Note that "department" is a bit ambiguous here. It could mean a department of the US government or a department of a university.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
4
Also note that in every department I am aware of, the guarantee of funding has asterisks (if the department gets axed for instance, or the University declares a financial emergency, many Universities can even dismiss tenured faculty under such conditions, so guarantee is not "we put $X of gold bullion in a safe in the basement to cover your funding"). Slower funding can mean that less students have research-based (RA) positions, teaching loads increase and more students must teach for funding, etc. There are lots of ways to "manage people out the door" as well. All ventures as risky.
– BrianH
yesterday
Also note that in every department I am aware of, the guarantee of funding has asterisks (if the department gets axed for instance, or the University declares a financial emergency, many Universities can even dismiss tenured faculty under such conditions, so guarantee is not "we put $X of gold bullion in a safe in the basement to cover your funding"). Slower funding can mean that less students have research-based (RA) positions, teaching loads increase and more students must teach for funding, etc. There are lots of ways to "manage people out the door" as well. All ventures as risky.
– BrianH
yesterday
@Buffy Sorry for the confusion. Do US departments guarantee funds to specific graduate students? Are you thinking like the GFRP?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
@Buffy Sorry for the confusion. Do US departments guarantee funds to specific graduate students? Are you thinking like the GFRP?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
1
Offer letters from graduate programs in the US frequently include "weasel words" that say that your funding is subject to the department having funds available. It's always possible that something really bad could happen and leave you without support.
– Brian Borchers
yesterday
Offer letters from graduate programs in the US frequently include "weasel words" that say that your funding is subject to the department having funds available. It's always possible that something really bad could happen and leave you without support.
– Brian Borchers
yesterday
How would the answer to this question matter in your decision-making? If the answer is that, in general, your funding could have some small probability of evaporating, are you then going to say, "Oh well, I won't do a PhD after all?"
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
How would the answer to this question matter in your decision-making? If the answer is that, in general, your funding could have some small probability of evaporating, are you then going to say, "Oh well, I won't do a PhD after all?"
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Large universities that are offering guaranteed funds often don't guarantee where those funds will come from, simply because they cannot: the money doesn't exist yet. In my graduate program, this is what guaranteed funding meant:
- Your first year was covered on a T32 training grant from NIH. This allowed you to rotate in different laboratories without those labs needing funding for you. The NIH provides these grants specifically for this purpose. If all the training grant slots were filled, some students would be admitted directly to a lab that was able to fund them starting their first year.
- After rotating, you would join a lab. This lab would basically need to have funding for you, or else you would have to teach. It is important for students and their PIs to talk about funding, since some labs have new grants or several grants and can pretty much slot out a PhD student's entire time in the lab; others have funding expiring soon and the student and advisor need to have plans if that funding falls through.
- At any point, most students would apply for outside funding, and some would get it. Even though funding was guaranteed, applying for and receiving grants looks good for your resume.
- Students were required to TA at least one semester; many would TA more if they were interested in teaching or to cover breaks in funding in their labs. Usually these would be negotiated with the students and students could time their TAship to coincide with a low funding period in their lab if necessary.
- In rare cases, students in labs that failed to secure funds continued their research with funds from another lab, perhaps changing their research project. The program would consider these hardships when granting the PhD degree, and it might result in a thesis that's less cohesive - that's just part of life.
Note that most of these steps didn't really involve the guarantee, it just involved there already being money around the labs that make up the program to fund students. Guaranteed meant that the program would be your advocate and would find you funding of some sort if other sorts fell through. They would find a way to get you a TAship if you couldn't get an RA. They would ask someone else to give up their TAship for you if they could get funding from their lab. They would find a way to stretch funds from one part of the budget to another to make sure you graduate. They would use training grant money for you to finish your final semester. The money wasn't in a pot set aside for you at the outset, but in the fungible world of money, the university was committing to support you. Guaranteed did not mean you could work in any lab of your choice and work towards any research project of your choosing, but it meant that lack of funding would not be an absolute reason for you to be unable to continue in the program over your first 5 years.
Every program will differ in terms of what types of support are available: TAships, RAships, PAships, fellowships and other funds. Funding guarantees are important, but so are the sources of those funds, and this should be an open conversation throughout the application process.
As raised in the comments, there are situations where even 'guaranteed' funding can be revoked, since the guarantee almost certainly comes with basic strings attached such as continued progress in the program, not violating a code of conduct, etc. That said, this sort of guarantee from a reputable university program is putting their reputation on the line to get you funded. They will only break this promise if necessary or justified. No employer is likely to ever provide you a stronger guarantee.
I started graduate school around the last recession; ultimately, the recession and associated funding cuts meant in some of the years after me the program admitted fewer students than typical over a couple years, but no one went unsupported.
Thanks for a comprehensive answer, I think we're in the same field, so very helpful.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
@AzorAhai Happy to give more specific advice over chat that doesn't meet the normal SE standards for Q&A. Also, I'd add that in my experience funding discussions need not be too hush hush - as a prospective graduate student, you should feel free to raise those issues with potential supervisors, current students in the program, and program staff. No one I know that would be worth working with would be offended if you asked them for specific clarification of a funding situation. Sure, it can be a delicate topic, but you are precisely the person who needs to know.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm pretty sure that no US agency would be permitted to reserve funds for five years. Appropriations are for one year only. A serious recession (a la 1929) would disrupt more than the funding, of course.
On the other hand, the agencies are normally pretty conservative when they make such commitments. But there may be a different president and will be a different congress by the end of that period.
And if a grant is made as a lump sum it will be paid out in one year to the university who will then administer the grant and guarantee its terms are met. Most US government grants are, in fact, administered this way, as are many private grants. The university charges the grant a fee (overhead) to cover administration costs. At that point the university holds the funds. But I have no information on how prevalent lump-sum grants are.
You can find more information here for the NSF.
If they wind up "short" on funds they will most likely just not award new grants, rather than cut off older ones. So it is pretty secure, but not absolutely secure. They will almost certainly have some money, but note the "hedge" words.
But my advice is to live your life making the best decisions based on current evidence rather than trying to forecast economic events too far out. If you refuse an award, thinking that it might end before your needs do then you are unlikely to come out ahead.
I will also note that in the worst case, universities will also most likely try to fill in gaps in funding as best they can, but, again, with no absolute guarantees.
RE: reserving funds, can a department not already have my entire stipend in an account somewhere? | Maybe this is just my incomplete understanding of funding, but does an entire stipend come out of a single grant (re: not cutting off older ones). | I'm not really trying to make any decisions here, I'm more curious about the mechanisms.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
I interpreted the question a bit differently. It might be possible for a government department to make a lump sum grant to a university to fund the continuing. From that point it would be up to the university to hold the funds and administer them. I don't actually know if this is done by NSF or not. Some private grants work this way, however. Many grants actually are administered by universities who assure the government that all conditions are met and who charge a fee (overhead) for the oversight.
– Buffy
yesterday
1
Appropriations are not necessarily one year long: depending on the agency you're dealing with, I've seen them be doled out in chunks as short as one quarter or as long as two years.
– jakebeal
yesterday
add a comment |
From a practical standpoint, the key thing is to figure out how stable the funding is at a given university department and lab group. Some universities are plush enough with Federal funding and implicit undergrad subsidy of research that they can/will take care of you regardless of if your prof runs out of money. A few won't or will expect you to teach for the money.
Note, this has always been the case, regardless of overall government outlays. In other words the variability of paramater X, of how much science funding there is in the nation is a lot less important than the more granular variability of funding at your advisor/department level.
Talk to students in specific groups and departments and ask them about funding, how precarious it is, etc. (Yes, current stability may not mean it is always that way, but if you already hear occasional issues or the lack of them, that's helpful to know.) By and large, I find the hard sciences much more stable and well funded than the soft sciences or liberal arts. If you are at a top 25 R1 department school in a hard science, the likelihood of funding issues is low. But you will find some differences from school to school (or advisor to advisor) on how plush they are.
Every 4 years there is a Presidential election. Every 2 years House and 1/3 Senate. And every year a new budget bill. And about every 5 years (plus or minus quite a bit) we have a recession. So it's really impossible to predict what the situation will be in the future. All that said, overall government funding of R&D is much more stable than what you are implying in the predicate of your question. (Now...selling bulletproof vests and Humvee armor...that is a very boom and bust business, pun sadly noted.)
Finally an important financial question which you should push for, that affects you much more than grant stability: ask and find out typical times to finish the Ph.D. My advice is to prioritize advisors and departments with a reputations for getting people done in less than 5 years. 4 years used to be nominal in the US, but now is considered fast. You don't want to be a grad student for 7 years. You're not really "studying" after your first year or two. You're just a poorly paid employee with none of the rights of an employee (albeit with more ability to goof off or spent long times on projects that interest you).
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Large universities that are offering guaranteed funds often don't guarantee where those funds will come from, simply because they cannot: the money doesn't exist yet. In my graduate program, this is what guaranteed funding meant:
- Your first year was covered on a T32 training grant from NIH. This allowed you to rotate in different laboratories without those labs needing funding for you. The NIH provides these grants specifically for this purpose. If all the training grant slots were filled, some students would be admitted directly to a lab that was able to fund them starting their first year.
- After rotating, you would join a lab. This lab would basically need to have funding for you, or else you would have to teach. It is important for students and their PIs to talk about funding, since some labs have new grants or several grants and can pretty much slot out a PhD student's entire time in the lab; others have funding expiring soon and the student and advisor need to have plans if that funding falls through.
- At any point, most students would apply for outside funding, and some would get it. Even though funding was guaranteed, applying for and receiving grants looks good for your resume.
- Students were required to TA at least one semester; many would TA more if they were interested in teaching or to cover breaks in funding in their labs. Usually these would be negotiated with the students and students could time their TAship to coincide with a low funding period in their lab if necessary.
- In rare cases, students in labs that failed to secure funds continued their research with funds from another lab, perhaps changing their research project. The program would consider these hardships when granting the PhD degree, and it might result in a thesis that's less cohesive - that's just part of life.
Note that most of these steps didn't really involve the guarantee, it just involved there already being money around the labs that make up the program to fund students. Guaranteed meant that the program would be your advocate and would find you funding of some sort if other sorts fell through. They would find a way to get you a TAship if you couldn't get an RA. They would ask someone else to give up their TAship for you if they could get funding from their lab. They would find a way to stretch funds from one part of the budget to another to make sure you graduate. They would use training grant money for you to finish your final semester. The money wasn't in a pot set aside for you at the outset, but in the fungible world of money, the university was committing to support you. Guaranteed did not mean you could work in any lab of your choice and work towards any research project of your choosing, but it meant that lack of funding would not be an absolute reason for you to be unable to continue in the program over your first 5 years.
Every program will differ in terms of what types of support are available: TAships, RAships, PAships, fellowships and other funds. Funding guarantees are important, but so are the sources of those funds, and this should be an open conversation throughout the application process.
As raised in the comments, there are situations where even 'guaranteed' funding can be revoked, since the guarantee almost certainly comes with basic strings attached such as continued progress in the program, not violating a code of conduct, etc. That said, this sort of guarantee from a reputable university program is putting their reputation on the line to get you funded. They will only break this promise if necessary or justified. No employer is likely to ever provide you a stronger guarantee.
I started graduate school around the last recession; ultimately, the recession and associated funding cuts meant in some of the years after me the program admitted fewer students than typical over a couple years, but no one went unsupported.
Thanks for a comprehensive answer, I think we're in the same field, so very helpful.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
@AzorAhai Happy to give more specific advice over chat that doesn't meet the normal SE standards for Q&A. Also, I'd add that in my experience funding discussions need not be too hush hush - as a prospective graduate student, you should feel free to raise those issues with potential supervisors, current students in the program, and program staff. No one I know that would be worth working with would be offended if you asked them for specific clarification of a funding situation. Sure, it can be a delicate topic, but you are precisely the person who needs to know.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
add a comment |
Large universities that are offering guaranteed funds often don't guarantee where those funds will come from, simply because they cannot: the money doesn't exist yet. In my graduate program, this is what guaranteed funding meant:
- Your first year was covered on a T32 training grant from NIH. This allowed you to rotate in different laboratories without those labs needing funding for you. The NIH provides these grants specifically for this purpose. If all the training grant slots were filled, some students would be admitted directly to a lab that was able to fund them starting their first year.
- After rotating, you would join a lab. This lab would basically need to have funding for you, or else you would have to teach. It is important for students and their PIs to talk about funding, since some labs have new grants or several grants and can pretty much slot out a PhD student's entire time in the lab; others have funding expiring soon and the student and advisor need to have plans if that funding falls through.
- At any point, most students would apply for outside funding, and some would get it. Even though funding was guaranteed, applying for and receiving grants looks good for your resume.
- Students were required to TA at least one semester; many would TA more if they were interested in teaching or to cover breaks in funding in their labs. Usually these would be negotiated with the students and students could time their TAship to coincide with a low funding period in their lab if necessary.
- In rare cases, students in labs that failed to secure funds continued their research with funds from another lab, perhaps changing their research project. The program would consider these hardships when granting the PhD degree, and it might result in a thesis that's less cohesive - that's just part of life.
Note that most of these steps didn't really involve the guarantee, it just involved there already being money around the labs that make up the program to fund students. Guaranteed meant that the program would be your advocate and would find you funding of some sort if other sorts fell through. They would find a way to get you a TAship if you couldn't get an RA. They would ask someone else to give up their TAship for you if they could get funding from their lab. They would find a way to stretch funds from one part of the budget to another to make sure you graduate. They would use training grant money for you to finish your final semester. The money wasn't in a pot set aside for you at the outset, but in the fungible world of money, the university was committing to support you. Guaranteed did not mean you could work in any lab of your choice and work towards any research project of your choosing, but it meant that lack of funding would not be an absolute reason for you to be unable to continue in the program over your first 5 years.
Every program will differ in terms of what types of support are available: TAships, RAships, PAships, fellowships and other funds. Funding guarantees are important, but so are the sources of those funds, and this should be an open conversation throughout the application process.
As raised in the comments, there are situations where even 'guaranteed' funding can be revoked, since the guarantee almost certainly comes with basic strings attached such as continued progress in the program, not violating a code of conduct, etc. That said, this sort of guarantee from a reputable university program is putting their reputation on the line to get you funded. They will only break this promise if necessary or justified. No employer is likely to ever provide you a stronger guarantee.
I started graduate school around the last recession; ultimately, the recession and associated funding cuts meant in some of the years after me the program admitted fewer students than typical over a couple years, but no one went unsupported.
Thanks for a comprehensive answer, I think we're in the same field, so very helpful.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
@AzorAhai Happy to give more specific advice over chat that doesn't meet the normal SE standards for Q&A. Also, I'd add that in my experience funding discussions need not be too hush hush - as a prospective graduate student, you should feel free to raise those issues with potential supervisors, current students in the program, and program staff. No one I know that would be worth working with would be offended if you asked them for specific clarification of a funding situation. Sure, it can be a delicate topic, but you are precisely the person who needs to know.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
add a comment |
Large universities that are offering guaranteed funds often don't guarantee where those funds will come from, simply because they cannot: the money doesn't exist yet. In my graduate program, this is what guaranteed funding meant:
- Your first year was covered on a T32 training grant from NIH. This allowed you to rotate in different laboratories without those labs needing funding for you. The NIH provides these grants specifically for this purpose. If all the training grant slots were filled, some students would be admitted directly to a lab that was able to fund them starting their first year.
- After rotating, you would join a lab. This lab would basically need to have funding for you, or else you would have to teach. It is important for students and their PIs to talk about funding, since some labs have new grants or several grants and can pretty much slot out a PhD student's entire time in the lab; others have funding expiring soon and the student and advisor need to have plans if that funding falls through.
- At any point, most students would apply for outside funding, and some would get it. Even though funding was guaranteed, applying for and receiving grants looks good for your resume.
- Students were required to TA at least one semester; many would TA more if they were interested in teaching or to cover breaks in funding in their labs. Usually these would be negotiated with the students and students could time their TAship to coincide with a low funding period in their lab if necessary.
- In rare cases, students in labs that failed to secure funds continued their research with funds from another lab, perhaps changing their research project. The program would consider these hardships when granting the PhD degree, and it might result in a thesis that's less cohesive - that's just part of life.
Note that most of these steps didn't really involve the guarantee, it just involved there already being money around the labs that make up the program to fund students. Guaranteed meant that the program would be your advocate and would find you funding of some sort if other sorts fell through. They would find a way to get you a TAship if you couldn't get an RA. They would ask someone else to give up their TAship for you if they could get funding from their lab. They would find a way to stretch funds from one part of the budget to another to make sure you graduate. They would use training grant money for you to finish your final semester. The money wasn't in a pot set aside for you at the outset, but in the fungible world of money, the university was committing to support you. Guaranteed did not mean you could work in any lab of your choice and work towards any research project of your choosing, but it meant that lack of funding would not be an absolute reason for you to be unable to continue in the program over your first 5 years.
Every program will differ in terms of what types of support are available: TAships, RAships, PAships, fellowships and other funds. Funding guarantees are important, but so are the sources of those funds, and this should be an open conversation throughout the application process.
As raised in the comments, there are situations where even 'guaranteed' funding can be revoked, since the guarantee almost certainly comes with basic strings attached such as continued progress in the program, not violating a code of conduct, etc. That said, this sort of guarantee from a reputable university program is putting their reputation on the line to get you funded. They will only break this promise if necessary or justified. No employer is likely to ever provide you a stronger guarantee.
I started graduate school around the last recession; ultimately, the recession and associated funding cuts meant in some of the years after me the program admitted fewer students than typical over a couple years, but no one went unsupported.
Large universities that are offering guaranteed funds often don't guarantee where those funds will come from, simply because they cannot: the money doesn't exist yet. In my graduate program, this is what guaranteed funding meant:
- Your first year was covered on a T32 training grant from NIH. This allowed you to rotate in different laboratories without those labs needing funding for you. The NIH provides these grants specifically for this purpose. If all the training grant slots were filled, some students would be admitted directly to a lab that was able to fund them starting their first year.
- After rotating, you would join a lab. This lab would basically need to have funding for you, or else you would have to teach. It is important for students and their PIs to talk about funding, since some labs have new grants or several grants and can pretty much slot out a PhD student's entire time in the lab; others have funding expiring soon and the student and advisor need to have plans if that funding falls through.
- At any point, most students would apply for outside funding, and some would get it. Even though funding was guaranteed, applying for and receiving grants looks good for your resume.
- Students were required to TA at least one semester; many would TA more if they were interested in teaching or to cover breaks in funding in their labs. Usually these would be negotiated with the students and students could time their TAship to coincide with a low funding period in their lab if necessary.
- In rare cases, students in labs that failed to secure funds continued their research with funds from another lab, perhaps changing their research project. The program would consider these hardships when granting the PhD degree, and it might result in a thesis that's less cohesive - that's just part of life.
Note that most of these steps didn't really involve the guarantee, it just involved there already being money around the labs that make up the program to fund students. Guaranteed meant that the program would be your advocate and would find you funding of some sort if other sorts fell through. They would find a way to get you a TAship if you couldn't get an RA. They would ask someone else to give up their TAship for you if they could get funding from their lab. They would find a way to stretch funds from one part of the budget to another to make sure you graduate. They would use training grant money for you to finish your final semester. The money wasn't in a pot set aside for you at the outset, but in the fungible world of money, the university was committing to support you. Guaranteed did not mean you could work in any lab of your choice and work towards any research project of your choosing, but it meant that lack of funding would not be an absolute reason for you to be unable to continue in the program over your first 5 years.
Every program will differ in terms of what types of support are available: TAships, RAships, PAships, fellowships and other funds. Funding guarantees are important, but so are the sources of those funds, and this should be an open conversation throughout the application process.
As raised in the comments, there are situations where even 'guaranteed' funding can be revoked, since the guarantee almost certainly comes with basic strings attached such as continued progress in the program, not violating a code of conduct, etc. That said, this sort of guarantee from a reputable university program is putting their reputation on the line to get you funded. They will only break this promise if necessary or justified. No employer is likely to ever provide you a stronger guarantee.
I started graduate school around the last recession; ultimately, the recession and associated funding cuts meant in some of the years after me the program admitted fewer students than typical over a couple years, but no one went unsupported.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Bryan KrauseBryan Krause
13.2k13862
13.2k13862
Thanks for a comprehensive answer, I think we're in the same field, so very helpful.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
@AzorAhai Happy to give more specific advice over chat that doesn't meet the normal SE standards for Q&A. Also, I'd add that in my experience funding discussions need not be too hush hush - as a prospective graduate student, you should feel free to raise those issues with potential supervisors, current students in the program, and program staff. No one I know that would be worth working with would be offended if you asked them for specific clarification of a funding situation. Sure, it can be a delicate topic, but you are precisely the person who needs to know.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
add a comment |
Thanks for a comprehensive answer, I think we're in the same field, so very helpful.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
@AzorAhai Happy to give more specific advice over chat that doesn't meet the normal SE standards for Q&A. Also, I'd add that in my experience funding discussions need not be too hush hush - as a prospective graduate student, you should feel free to raise those issues with potential supervisors, current students in the program, and program staff. No one I know that would be worth working with would be offended if you asked them for specific clarification of a funding situation. Sure, it can be a delicate topic, but you are precisely the person who needs to know.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
Thanks for a comprehensive answer, I think we're in the same field, so very helpful.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
Thanks for a comprehensive answer, I think we're in the same field, so very helpful.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
@AzorAhai Happy to give more specific advice over chat that doesn't meet the normal SE standards for Q&A. Also, I'd add that in my experience funding discussions need not be too hush hush - as a prospective graduate student, you should feel free to raise those issues with potential supervisors, current students in the program, and program staff. No one I know that would be worth working with would be offended if you asked them for specific clarification of a funding situation. Sure, it can be a delicate topic, but you are precisely the person who needs to know.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
@AzorAhai Happy to give more specific advice over chat that doesn't meet the normal SE standards for Q&A. Also, I'd add that in my experience funding discussions need not be too hush hush - as a prospective graduate student, you should feel free to raise those issues with potential supervisors, current students in the program, and program staff. No one I know that would be worth working with would be offended if you asked them for specific clarification of a funding situation. Sure, it can be a delicate topic, but you are precisely the person who needs to know.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm pretty sure that no US agency would be permitted to reserve funds for five years. Appropriations are for one year only. A serious recession (a la 1929) would disrupt more than the funding, of course.
On the other hand, the agencies are normally pretty conservative when they make such commitments. But there may be a different president and will be a different congress by the end of that period.
And if a grant is made as a lump sum it will be paid out in one year to the university who will then administer the grant and guarantee its terms are met. Most US government grants are, in fact, administered this way, as are many private grants. The university charges the grant a fee (overhead) to cover administration costs. At that point the university holds the funds. But I have no information on how prevalent lump-sum grants are.
You can find more information here for the NSF.
If they wind up "short" on funds they will most likely just not award new grants, rather than cut off older ones. So it is pretty secure, but not absolutely secure. They will almost certainly have some money, but note the "hedge" words.
But my advice is to live your life making the best decisions based on current evidence rather than trying to forecast economic events too far out. If you refuse an award, thinking that it might end before your needs do then you are unlikely to come out ahead.
I will also note that in the worst case, universities will also most likely try to fill in gaps in funding as best they can, but, again, with no absolute guarantees.
RE: reserving funds, can a department not already have my entire stipend in an account somewhere? | Maybe this is just my incomplete understanding of funding, but does an entire stipend come out of a single grant (re: not cutting off older ones). | I'm not really trying to make any decisions here, I'm more curious about the mechanisms.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
I interpreted the question a bit differently. It might be possible for a government department to make a lump sum grant to a university to fund the continuing. From that point it would be up to the university to hold the funds and administer them. I don't actually know if this is done by NSF or not. Some private grants work this way, however. Many grants actually are administered by universities who assure the government that all conditions are met and who charge a fee (overhead) for the oversight.
– Buffy
yesterday
1
Appropriations are not necessarily one year long: depending on the agency you're dealing with, I've seen them be doled out in chunks as short as one quarter or as long as two years.
– jakebeal
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm pretty sure that no US agency would be permitted to reserve funds for five years. Appropriations are for one year only. A serious recession (a la 1929) would disrupt more than the funding, of course.
On the other hand, the agencies are normally pretty conservative when they make such commitments. But there may be a different president and will be a different congress by the end of that period.
And if a grant is made as a lump sum it will be paid out in one year to the university who will then administer the grant and guarantee its terms are met. Most US government grants are, in fact, administered this way, as are many private grants. The university charges the grant a fee (overhead) to cover administration costs. At that point the university holds the funds. But I have no information on how prevalent lump-sum grants are.
You can find more information here for the NSF.
If they wind up "short" on funds they will most likely just not award new grants, rather than cut off older ones. So it is pretty secure, but not absolutely secure. They will almost certainly have some money, but note the "hedge" words.
But my advice is to live your life making the best decisions based on current evidence rather than trying to forecast economic events too far out. If you refuse an award, thinking that it might end before your needs do then you are unlikely to come out ahead.
I will also note that in the worst case, universities will also most likely try to fill in gaps in funding as best they can, but, again, with no absolute guarantees.
RE: reserving funds, can a department not already have my entire stipend in an account somewhere? | Maybe this is just my incomplete understanding of funding, but does an entire stipend come out of a single grant (re: not cutting off older ones). | I'm not really trying to make any decisions here, I'm more curious about the mechanisms.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
I interpreted the question a bit differently. It might be possible for a government department to make a lump sum grant to a university to fund the continuing. From that point it would be up to the university to hold the funds and administer them. I don't actually know if this is done by NSF or not. Some private grants work this way, however. Many grants actually are administered by universities who assure the government that all conditions are met and who charge a fee (overhead) for the oversight.
– Buffy
yesterday
1
Appropriations are not necessarily one year long: depending on the agency you're dealing with, I've seen them be doled out in chunks as short as one quarter or as long as two years.
– jakebeal
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm pretty sure that no US agency would be permitted to reserve funds for five years. Appropriations are for one year only. A serious recession (a la 1929) would disrupt more than the funding, of course.
On the other hand, the agencies are normally pretty conservative when they make such commitments. But there may be a different president and will be a different congress by the end of that period.
And if a grant is made as a lump sum it will be paid out in one year to the university who will then administer the grant and guarantee its terms are met. Most US government grants are, in fact, administered this way, as are many private grants. The university charges the grant a fee (overhead) to cover administration costs. At that point the university holds the funds. But I have no information on how prevalent lump-sum grants are.
You can find more information here for the NSF.
If they wind up "short" on funds they will most likely just not award new grants, rather than cut off older ones. So it is pretty secure, but not absolutely secure. They will almost certainly have some money, but note the "hedge" words.
But my advice is to live your life making the best decisions based on current evidence rather than trying to forecast economic events too far out. If you refuse an award, thinking that it might end before your needs do then you are unlikely to come out ahead.
I will also note that in the worst case, universities will also most likely try to fill in gaps in funding as best they can, but, again, with no absolute guarantees.
I'm pretty sure that no US agency would be permitted to reserve funds for five years. Appropriations are for one year only. A serious recession (a la 1929) would disrupt more than the funding, of course.
On the other hand, the agencies are normally pretty conservative when they make such commitments. But there may be a different president and will be a different congress by the end of that period.
And if a grant is made as a lump sum it will be paid out in one year to the university who will then administer the grant and guarantee its terms are met. Most US government grants are, in fact, administered this way, as are many private grants. The university charges the grant a fee (overhead) to cover administration costs. At that point the university holds the funds. But I have no information on how prevalent lump-sum grants are.
You can find more information here for the NSF.
If they wind up "short" on funds they will most likely just not award new grants, rather than cut off older ones. So it is pretty secure, but not absolutely secure. They will almost certainly have some money, but note the "hedge" words.
But my advice is to live your life making the best decisions based on current evidence rather than trying to forecast economic events too far out. If you refuse an award, thinking that it might end before your needs do then you are unlikely to come out ahead.
I will also note that in the worst case, universities will also most likely try to fill in gaps in funding as best they can, but, again, with no absolute guarantees.
edited yesterday
aeismail♦
161k31374699
161k31374699
answered yesterday
BuffyBuffy
44.8k12143230
44.8k12143230
RE: reserving funds, can a department not already have my entire stipend in an account somewhere? | Maybe this is just my incomplete understanding of funding, but does an entire stipend come out of a single grant (re: not cutting off older ones). | I'm not really trying to make any decisions here, I'm more curious about the mechanisms.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
I interpreted the question a bit differently. It might be possible for a government department to make a lump sum grant to a university to fund the continuing. From that point it would be up to the university to hold the funds and administer them. I don't actually know if this is done by NSF or not. Some private grants work this way, however. Many grants actually are administered by universities who assure the government that all conditions are met and who charge a fee (overhead) for the oversight.
– Buffy
yesterday
1
Appropriations are not necessarily one year long: depending on the agency you're dealing with, I've seen them be doled out in chunks as short as one quarter or as long as two years.
– jakebeal
yesterday
add a comment |
RE: reserving funds, can a department not already have my entire stipend in an account somewhere? | Maybe this is just my incomplete understanding of funding, but does an entire stipend come out of a single grant (re: not cutting off older ones). | I'm not really trying to make any decisions here, I'm more curious about the mechanisms.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
I interpreted the question a bit differently. It might be possible for a government department to make a lump sum grant to a university to fund the continuing. From that point it would be up to the university to hold the funds and administer them. I don't actually know if this is done by NSF or not. Some private grants work this way, however. Many grants actually are administered by universities who assure the government that all conditions are met and who charge a fee (overhead) for the oversight.
– Buffy
yesterday
1
Appropriations are not necessarily one year long: depending on the agency you're dealing with, I've seen them be doled out in chunks as short as one quarter or as long as two years.
– jakebeal
yesterday
RE: reserving funds, can a department not already have my entire stipend in an account somewhere? | Maybe this is just my incomplete understanding of funding, but does an entire stipend come out of a single grant (re: not cutting off older ones). | I'm not really trying to make any decisions here, I'm more curious about the mechanisms.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
RE: reserving funds, can a department not already have my entire stipend in an account somewhere? | Maybe this is just my incomplete understanding of funding, but does an entire stipend come out of a single grant (re: not cutting off older ones). | I'm not really trying to make any decisions here, I'm more curious about the mechanisms.
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
1
I interpreted the question a bit differently. It might be possible for a government department to make a lump sum grant to a university to fund the continuing. From that point it would be up to the university to hold the funds and administer them. I don't actually know if this is done by NSF or not. Some private grants work this way, however. Many grants actually are administered by universities who assure the government that all conditions are met and who charge a fee (overhead) for the oversight.
– Buffy
yesterday
I interpreted the question a bit differently. It might be possible for a government department to make a lump sum grant to a university to fund the continuing. From that point it would be up to the university to hold the funds and administer them. I don't actually know if this is done by NSF or not. Some private grants work this way, however. Many grants actually are administered by universities who assure the government that all conditions are met and who charge a fee (overhead) for the oversight.
– Buffy
yesterday
1
1
Appropriations are not necessarily one year long: depending on the agency you're dealing with, I've seen them be doled out in chunks as short as one quarter or as long as two years.
– jakebeal
yesterday
Appropriations are not necessarily one year long: depending on the agency you're dealing with, I've seen them be doled out in chunks as short as one quarter or as long as two years.
– jakebeal
yesterday
add a comment |
From a practical standpoint, the key thing is to figure out how stable the funding is at a given university department and lab group. Some universities are plush enough with Federal funding and implicit undergrad subsidy of research that they can/will take care of you regardless of if your prof runs out of money. A few won't or will expect you to teach for the money.
Note, this has always been the case, regardless of overall government outlays. In other words the variability of paramater X, of how much science funding there is in the nation is a lot less important than the more granular variability of funding at your advisor/department level.
Talk to students in specific groups and departments and ask them about funding, how precarious it is, etc. (Yes, current stability may not mean it is always that way, but if you already hear occasional issues or the lack of them, that's helpful to know.) By and large, I find the hard sciences much more stable and well funded than the soft sciences or liberal arts. If you are at a top 25 R1 department school in a hard science, the likelihood of funding issues is low. But you will find some differences from school to school (or advisor to advisor) on how plush they are.
Every 4 years there is a Presidential election. Every 2 years House and 1/3 Senate. And every year a new budget bill. And about every 5 years (plus or minus quite a bit) we have a recession. So it's really impossible to predict what the situation will be in the future. All that said, overall government funding of R&D is much more stable than what you are implying in the predicate of your question. (Now...selling bulletproof vests and Humvee armor...that is a very boom and bust business, pun sadly noted.)
Finally an important financial question which you should push for, that affects you much more than grant stability: ask and find out typical times to finish the Ph.D. My advice is to prioritize advisors and departments with a reputations for getting people done in less than 5 years. 4 years used to be nominal in the US, but now is considered fast. You don't want to be a grad student for 7 years. You're not really "studying" after your first year or two. You're just a poorly paid employee with none of the rights of an employee (albeit with more ability to goof off or spent long times on projects that interest you).
New contributor
guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
From a practical standpoint, the key thing is to figure out how stable the funding is at a given university department and lab group. Some universities are plush enough with Federal funding and implicit undergrad subsidy of research that they can/will take care of you regardless of if your prof runs out of money. A few won't or will expect you to teach for the money.
Note, this has always been the case, regardless of overall government outlays. In other words the variability of paramater X, of how much science funding there is in the nation is a lot less important than the more granular variability of funding at your advisor/department level.
Talk to students in specific groups and departments and ask them about funding, how precarious it is, etc. (Yes, current stability may not mean it is always that way, but if you already hear occasional issues or the lack of them, that's helpful to know.) By and large, I find the hard sciences much more stable and well funded than the soft sciences or liberal arts. If you are at a top 25 R1 department school in a hard science, the likelihood of funding issues is low. But you will find some differences from school to school (or advisor to advisor) on how plush they are.
Every 4 years there is a Presidential election. Every 2 years House and 1/3 Senate. And every year a new budget bill. And about every 5 years (plus or minus quite a bit) we have a recession. So it's really impossible to predict what the situation will be in the future. All that said, overall government funding of R&D is much more stable than what you are implying in the predicate of your question. (Now...selling bulletproof vests and Humvee armor...that is a very boom and bust business, pun sadly noted.)
Finally an important financial question which you should push for, that affects you much more than grant stability: ask and find out typical times to finish the Ph.D. My advice is to prioritize advisors and departments with a reputations for getting people done in less than 5 years. 4 years used to be nominal in the US, but now is considered fast. You don't want to be a grad student for 7 years. You're not really "studying" after your first year or two. You're just a poorly paid employee with none of the rights of an employee (albeit with more ability to goof off or spent long times on projects that interest you).
New contributor
guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
From a practical standpoint, the key thing is to figure out how stable the funding is at a given university department and lab group. Some universities are plush enough with Federal funding and implicit undergrad subsidy of research that they can/will take care of you regardless of if your prof runs out of money. A few won't or will expect you to teach for the money.
Note, this has always been the case, regardless of overall government outlays. In other words the variability of paramater X, of how much science funding there is in the nation is a lot less important than the more granular variability of funding at your advisor/department level.
Talk to students in specific groups and departments and ask them about funding, how precarious it is, etc. (Yes, current stability may not mean it is always that way, but if you already hear occasional issues or the lack of them, that's helpful to know.) By and large, I find the hard sciences much more stable and well funded than the soft sciences or liberal arts. If you are at a top 25 R1 department school in a hard science, the likelihood of funding issues is low. But you will find some differences from school to school (or advisor to advisor) on how plush they are.
Every 4 years there is a Presidential election. Every 2 years House and 1/3 Senate. And every year a new budget bill. And about every 5 years (plus or minus quite a bit) we have a recession. So it's really impossible to predict what the situation will be in the future. All that said, overall government funding of R&D is much more stable than what you are implying in the predicate of your question. (Now...selling bulletproof vests and Humvee armor...that is a very boom and bust business, pun sadly noted.)
Finally an important financial question which you should push for, that affects you much more than grant stability: ask and find out typical times to finish the Ph.D. My advice is to prioritize advisors and departments with a reputations for getting people done in less than 5 years. 4 years used to be nominal in the US, but now is considered fast. You don't want to be a grad student for 7 years. You're not really "studying" after your first year or two. You're just a poorly paid employee with none of the rights of an employee (albeit with more ability to goof off or spent long times on projects that interest you).
New contributor
guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
From a practical standpoint, the key thing is to figure out how stable the funding is at a given university department and lab group. Some universities are plush enough with Federal funding and implicit undergrad subsidy of research that they can/will take care of you regardless of if your prof runs out of money. A few won't or will expect you to teach for the money.
Note, this has always been the case, regardless of overall government outlays. In other words the variability of paramater X, of how much science funding there is in the nation is a lot less important than the more granular variability of funding at your advisor/department level.
Talk to students in specific groups and departments and ask them about funding, how precarious it is, etc. (Yes, current stability may not mean it is always that way, but if you already hear occasional issues or the lack of them, that's helpful to know.) By and large, I find the hard sciences much more stable and well funded than the soft sciences or liberal arts. If you are at a top 25 R1 department school in a hard science, the likelihood of funding issues is low. But you will find some differences from school to school (or advisor to advisor) on how plush they are.
Every 4 years there is a Presidential election. Every 2 years House and 1/3 Senate. And every year a new budget bill. And about every 5 years (plus or minus quite a bit) we have a recession. So it's really impossible to predict what the situation will be in the future. All that said, overall government funding of R&D is much more stable than what you are implying in the predicate of your question. (Now...selling bulletproof vests and Humvee armor...that is a very boom and bust business, pun sadly noted.)
Finally an important financial question which you should push for, that affects you much more than grant stability: ask and find out typical times to finish the Ph.D. My advice is to prioritize advisors and departments with a reputations for getting people done in less than 5 years. 4 years used to be nominal in the US, but now is considered fast. You don't want to be a grad student for 7 years. You're not really "studying" after your first year or two. You're just a poorly paid employee with none of the rights of an employee (albeit with more ability to goof off or spent long times on projects that interest you).
New contributor
guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited yesterday
New contributor
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answered yesterday
guestguest
111
111
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guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Note that "department" is a bit ambiguous here. It could mean a department of the US government or a department of a university.
– Buffy
yesterday
4
Also note that in every department I am aware of, the guarantee of funding has asterisks (if the department gets axed for instance, or the University declares a financial emergency, many Universities can even dismiss tenured faculty under such conditions, so guarantee is not "we put $X of gold bullion in a safe in the basement to cover your funding"). Slower funding can mean that less students have research-based (RA) positions, teaching loads increase and more students must teach for funding, etc. There are lots of ways to "manage people out the door" as well. All ventures as risky.
– BrianH
yesterday
@Buffy Sorry for the confusion. Do US departments guarantee funds to specific graduate students? Are you thinking like the GFRP?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
1
Offer letters from graduate programs in the US frequently include "weasel words" that say that your funding is subject to the department having funds available. It's always possible that something really bad could happen and leave you without support.
– Brian Borchers
yesterday
How would the answer to this question matter in your decision-making? If the answer is that, in general, your funding could have some small probability of evaporating, are you then going to say, "Oh well, I won't do a PhD after all?"
– Ben Crowell
11 hours ago