Would studying the games of old players hurt my progress?












25














I was watching a video last night by Ben Finegold on Paul Morphy and some of his games. He mentioned that some current GMs would discount Morphy's ability since all of his opponents were "terrible". However, Ben countered by observing that ok even if that's true, almost all of Morphy's moves were the best move.



I went back and looked through more of his games and like his style - extremely aggressive, and always gets his pieces out and working together, something I have a tough time doing. So the question is as in the title: for someone at my level (still very much a beginner, probably sub-1200 once my rating stabilizes), does it make sense to study older players like this, or stick with newer games? The problem I have studying newer games is that they are completely inscrutable. I can almost never figure out why certain moves are begin made once they're outside theory, so I'm not sure how much mileage I actually get out of it.










share|improve this question


















  • 9




    Newer games are far more subtle and difficult for lower rated players to understand than the older games, where ideas and themes were often displayed more clearly. This is why newer players are often advised to study the games of the past masters rather than the games of today's top players.
    – Scounged
    2 days ago










  • I think studying the games of anyone substantially more skilled than you is useful, as long as they are at least Master level. Just go in with the understanding that neither player is playing perfectly.
    – ThoralfSkolem
    10 hours ago
















25














I was watching a video last night by Ben Finegold on Paul Morphy and some of his games. He mentioned that some current GMs would discount Morphy's ability since all of his opponents were "terrible". However, Ben countered by observing that ok even if that's true, almost all of Morphy's moves were the best move.



I went back and looked through more of his games and like his style - extremely aggressive, and always gets his pieces out and working together, something I have a tough time doing. So the question is as in the title: for someone at my level (still very much a beginner, probably sub-1200 once my rating stabilizes), does it make sense to study older players like this, or stick with newer games? The problem I have studying newer games is that they are completely inscrutable. I can almost never figure out why certain moves are begin made once they're outside theory, so I'm not sure how much mileage I actually get out of it.










share|improve this question


















  • 9




    Newer games are far more subtle and difficult for lower rated players to understand than the older games, where ideas and themes were often displayed more clearly. This is why newer players are often advised to study the games of the past masters rather than the games of today's top players.
    – Scounged
    2 days ago










  • I think studying the games of anyone substantially more skilled than you is useful, as long as they are at least Master level. Just go in with the understanding that neither player is playing perfectly.
    – ThoralfSkolem
    10 hours ago














25












25








25


1





I was watching a video last night by Ben Finegold on Paul Morphy and some of his games. He mentioned that some current GMs would discount Morphy's ability since all of his opponents were "terrible". However, Ben countered by observing that ok even if that's true, almost all of Morphy's moves were the best move.



I went back and looked through more of his games and like his style - extremely aggressive, and always gets his pieces out and working together, something I have a tough time doing. So the question is as in the title: for someone at my level (still very much a beginner, probably sub-1200 once my rating stabilizes), does it make sense to study older players like this, or stick with newer games? The problem I have studying newer games is that they are completely inscrutable. I can almost never figure out why certain moves are begin made once they're outside theory, so I'm not sure how much mileage I actually get out of it.










share|improve this question













I was watching a video last night by Ben Finegold on Paul Morphy and some of his games. He mentioned that some current GMs would discount Morphy's ability since all of his opponents were "terrible". However, Ben countered by observing that ok even if that's true, almost all of Morphy's moves were the best move.



I went back and looked through more of his games and like his style - extremely aggressive, and always gets his pieces out and working together, something I have a tough time doing. So the question is as in the title: for someone at my level (still very much a beginner, probably sub-1200 once my rating stabilizes), does it make sense to study older players like this, or stick with newer games? The problem I have studying newer games is that they are completely inscrutable. I can almost never figure out why certain moves are begin made once they're outside theory, so I'm not sure how much mileage I actually get out of it.







analysis learning master-games morphy






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 2 days ago









Derek Allums

492412




492412








  • 9




    Newer games are far more subtle and difficult for lower rated players to understand than the older games, where ideas and themes were often displayed more clearly. This is why newer players are often advised to study the games of the past masters rather than the games of today's top players.
    – Scounged
    2 days ago










  • I think studying the games of anyone substantially more skilled than you is useful, as long as they are at least Master level. Just go in with the understanding that neither player is playing perfectly.
    – ThoralfSkolem
    10 hours ago














  • 9




    Newer games are far more subtle and difficult for lower rated players to understand than the older games, where ideas and themes were often displayed more clearly. This is why newer players are often advised to study the games of the past masters rather than the games of today's top players.
    – Scounged
    2 days ago










  • I think studying the games of anyone substantially more skilled than you is useful, as long as they are at least Master level. Just go in with the understanding that neither player is playing perfectly.
    – ThoralfSkolem
    10 hours ago








9




9




Newer games are far more subtle and difficult for lower rated players to understand than the older games, where ideas and themes were often displayed more clearly. This is why newer players are often advised to study the games of the past masters rather than the games of today's top players.
– Scounged
2 days ago




Newer games are far more subtle and difficult for lower rated players to understand than the older games, where ideas and themes were often displayed more clearly. This is why newer players are often advised to study the games of the past masters rather than the games of today's top players.
– Scounged
2 days ago












I think studying the games of anyone substantially more skilled than you is useful, as long as they are at least Master level. Just go in with the understanding that neither player is playing perfectly.
– ThoralfSkolem
10 hours ago




I think studying the games of anyone substantially more skilled than you is useful, as long as they are at least Master level. Just go in with the understanding that neither player is playing perfectly.
– ThoralfSkolem
10 hours ago










6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















20














The answer from SmallChess is good. There's also an illustrative tweet from Garry Kasparov on the subject:




For beginning chess players, studying a Carlsen game is like wanting to be an electrical engineer & beginning with studying an iPhone.







share|improve this answer

















  • 2




    Ha - exactly what I was thinking, and makes me feel less bad about getting basically nothing out of it.
    – Derek Allums
    2 days ago



















16














Paul Morphy's games are better resources for learning at your level. There's no use for you to get into deep positional understanding typically in modern GM games.



You should get a book on Amazon. Don't try to analyze the games yourself.






share|improve this answer





























    9














    If you're a beginner then studying games from the old masters does more good, especially players like Morphy who emphasized the basics (quick development, attacking an uncastled king, etc). Once you get to the 1500 range, you'd do best looking at games from the GMs of the 20th century up until the 1990s. That was when classical chess theory "matured", so to speak, without being so absorbed in theory.



    You noted it's tough to follow the top players currently. That's no accident, as it's not uncommon for them to spend the first 15-20 moves completely in theory generated by engines and hours of preparation.






    share|improve this answer





























      7














      Pretty much all great players studied the games of the best players of the past, and it is repeatedly recommended that studying them is a great way to improve. Marin's book Learn from the Legends is pretty much based around his journey of doing that.






      share|improve this answer





























        5














        Definitely study classic Morphy's games. The fact that Morphy was so far ahead of his peers is a good thing. His opponents often missed Morphy's plan and the plan came out clearly, and it shows you what you should strive to do.



        In modern chess so much depends on opening preparation, where moves are often not intuitive and depend on engine backed calculations, that it is very difficult to see what the plan is.






        share|improve this answer





























          4














          It absolutely makes sense to study Morphy. Sure, most of his opponents were "terrible" but so are most of your opponents. And, let's be honest, so are you, at the moment. Studying Morphy's games – and tactics in general – will teach you how to beat "terrible" opponents. At your level, nearly all games are decided by exactly the sort of tactical blunders that Morphy will quickly teach you how to avoid and exploit.



          Once you're beating all the "terrible" players, you'll have moved up the ladder to "bad". Then you can look at the games of people like Lasker and Capablanca, who'll help you learn to think strategically too. Then you'll be a "so-so" player and maybe even a "good" one.



          The modern games are, as you say, pretty inscrutable. Modern players know so much about chess that most of what they do is basically micro-optimization in an attempt to play something that's 99.5% perfect instead of 99%. It is possible to learn from modern games, as long as they're very well annotated, explaining why alternative moves would be mistakes. But don't fall into the trap of thinking "Carlsen played Bb4 and I was thinking that Nc4 looks like a decent move. Why is it wrong?" Usually, there are two or three good moves in any position. Carlsen needs to play the absolutely best move because his opponent is a genius; you can play any of the good moves and be fine, because your opponent isn't a genius. Mostly, though, people who play chess for a hobby will learn much more from older games than modern ones.






          share|improve this answer

















          • 2




            Your first paragraph is a nice summary of exactly why I wanted to do this.
            – Derek Allums
            yesterday










          • A nitpick, but your use of "terrible" inconsistent IMO, you use it to refer to Morphy's opponents, like Paulsen, Bird, Andersen (Morphy's most famous games are against these opponents), who are probably at least 2200 in modern strength. And then you are talking about OP moving from "terrible" to "bad", which would imply that OP will become stronger than the mentioned players.
            – Akavall
            3 hours ago











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          6 Answers
          6






          active

          oldest

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          6 Answers
          6






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          20














          The answer from SmallChess is good. There's also an illustrative tweet from Garry Kasparov on the subject:




          For beginning chess players, studying a Carlsen game is like wanting to be an electrical engineer & beginning with studying an iPhone.







          share|improve this answer

















          • 2




            Ha - exactly what I was thinking, and makes me feel less bad about getting basically nothing out of it.
            – Derek Allums
            2 days ago
















          20














          The answer from SmallChess is good. There's also an illustrative tweet from Garry Kasparov on the subject:




          For beginning chess players, studying a Carlsen game is like wanting to be an electrical engineer & beginning with studying an iPhone.







          share|improve this answer

















          • 2




            Ha - exactly what I was thinking, and makes me feel less bad about getting basically nothing out of it.
            – Derek Allums
            2 days ago














          20












          20








          20






          The answer from SmallChess is good. There's also an illustrative tweet from Garry Kasparov on the subject:




          For beginning chess players, studying a Carlsen game is like wanting to be an electrical engineer & beginning with studying an iPhone.







          share|improve this answer












          The answer from SmallChess is good. There's also an illustrative tweet from Garry Kasparov on the subject:




          For beginning chess players, studying a Carlsen game is like wanting to be an electrical engineer & beginning with studying an iPhone.








          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 days ago









          Cleveland

          4,76011132




          4,76011132








          • 2




            Ha - exactly what I was thinking, and makes me feel less bad about getting basically nothing out of it.
            – Derek Allums
            2 days ago














          • 2




            Ha - exactly what I was thinking, and makes me feel less bad about getting basically nothing out of it.
            – Derek Allums
            2 days ago








          2




          2




          Ha - exactly what I was thinking, and makes me feel less bad about getting basically nothing out of it.
          – Derek Allums
          2 days ago




          Ha - exactly what I was thinking, and makes me feel less bad about getting basically nothing out of it.
          – Derek Allums
          2 days ago











          16














          Paul Morphy's games are better resources for learning at your level. There's no use for you to get into deep positional understanding typically in modern GM games.



          You should get a book on Amazon. Don't try to analyze the games yourself.






          share|improve this answer


























            16














            Paul Morphy's games are better resources for learning at your level. There's no use for you to get into deep positional understanding typically in modern GM games.



            You should get a book on Amazon. Don't try to analyze the games yourself.






            share|improve this answer
























              16












              16








              16






              Paul Morphy's games are better resources for learning at your level. There's no use for you to get into deep positional understanding typically in modern GM games.



              You should get a book on Amazon. Don't try to analyze the games yourself.






              share|improve this answer












              Paul Morphy's games are better resources for learning at your level. There's no use for you to get into deep positional understanding typically in modern GM games.



              You should get a book on Amazon. Don't try to analyze the games yourself.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 2 days ago









              SmallChess

              14.4k22248




              14.4k22248























                  9














                  If you're a beginner then studying games from the old masters does more good, especially players like Morphy who emphasized the basics (quick development, attacking an uncastled king, etc). Once you get to the 1500 range, you'd do best looking at games from the GMs of the 20th century up until the 1990s. That was when classical chess theory "matured", so to speak, without being so absorbed in theory.



                  You noted it's tough to follow the top players currently. That's no accident, as it's not uncommon for them to spend the first 15-20 moves completely in theory generated by engines and hours of preparation.






                  share|improve this answer


























                    9














                    If you're a beginner then studying games from the old masters does more good, especially players like Morphy who emphasized the basics (quick development, attacking an uncastled king, etc). Once you get to the 1500 range, you'd do best looking at games from the GMs of the 20th century up until the 1990s. That was when classical chess theory "matured", so to speak, without being so absorbed in theory.



                    You noted it's tough to follow the top players currently. That's no accident, as it's not uncommon for them to spend the first 15-20 moves completely in theory generated by engines and hours of preparation.






                    share|improve this answer
























                      9












                      9








                      9






                      If you're a beginner then studying games from the old masters does more good, especially players like Morphy who emphasized the basics (quick development, attacking an uncastled king, etc). Once you get to the 1500 range, you'd do best looking at games from the GMs of the 20th century up until the 1990s. That was when classical chess theory "matured", so to speak, without being so absorbed in theory.



                      You noted it's tough to follow the top players currently. That's no accident, as it's not uncommon for them to spend the first 15-20 moves completely in theory generated by engines and hours of preparation.






                      share|improve this answer












                      If you're a beginner then studying games from the old masters does more good, especially players like Morphy who emphasized the basics (quick development, attacking an uncastled king, etc). Once you get to the 1500 range, you'd do best looking at games from the GMs of the 20th century up until the 1990s. That was when classical chess theory "matured", so to speak, without being so absorbed in theory.



                      You noted it's tough to follow the top players currently. That's no accident, as it's not uncommon for them to spend the first 15-20 moves completely in theory generated by engines and hours of preparation.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 2 days ago









                      Inertial Ignorance

                      2,98019




                      2,98019























                          7














                          Pretty much all great players studied the games of the best players of the past, and it is repeatedly recommended that studying them is a great way to improve. Marin's book Learn from the Legends is pretty much based around his journey of doing that.






                          share|improve this answer


























                            7














                            Pretty much all great players studied the games of the best players of the past, and it is repeatedly recommended that studying them is a great way to improve. Marin's book Learn from the Legends is pretty much based around his journey of doing that.






                            share|improve this answer
























                              7












                              7








                              7






                              Pretty much all great players studied the games of the best players of the past, and it is repeatedly recommended that studying them is a great way to improve. Marin's book Learn from the Legends is pretty much based around his journey of doing that.






                              share|improve this answer












                              Pretty much all great players studied the games of the best players of the past, and it is repeatedly recommended that studying them is a great way to improve. Marin's book Learn from the Legends is pretty much based around his journey of doing that.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered 2 days ago









                              Jerry Snitselaar

                              64647




                              64647























                                  5














                                  Definitely study classic Morphy's games. The fact that Morphy was so far ahead of his peers is a good thing. His opponents often missed Morphy's plan and the plan came out clearly, and it shows you what you should strive to do.



                                  In modern chess so much depends on opening preparation, where moves are often not intuitive and depend on engine backed calculations, that it is very difficult to see what the plan is.






                                  share|improve this answer


























                                    5














                                    Definitely study classic Morphy's games. The fact that Morphy was so far ahead of his peers is a good thing. His opponents often missed Morphy's plan and the plan came out clearly, and it shows you what you should strive to do.



                                    In modern chess so much depends on opening preparation, where moves are often not intuitive and depend on engine backed calculations, that it is very difficult to see what the plan is.






                                    share|improve this answer
























                                      5












                                      5








                                      5






                                      Definitely study classic Morphy's games. The fact that Morphy was so far ahead of his peers is a good thing. His opponents often missed Morphy's plan and the plan came out clearly, and it shows you what you should strive to do.



                                      In modern chess so much depends on opening preparation, where moves are often not intuitive and depend on engine backed calculations, that it is very difficult to see what the plan is.






                                      share|improve this answer












                                      Definitely study classic Morphy's games. The fact that Morphy was so far ahead of his peers is a good thing. His opponents often missed Morphy's plan and the plan came out clearly, and it shows you what you should strive to do.



                                      In modern chess so much depends on opening preparation, where moves are often not intuitive and depend on engine backed calculations, that it is very difficult to see what the plan is.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered 2 days ago









                                      Akavall

                                      2,9301919




                                      2,9301919























                                          4














                                          It absolutely makes sense to study Morphy. Sure, most of his opponents were "terrible" but so are most of your opponents. And, let's be honest, so are you, at the moment. Studying Morphy's games – and tactics in general – will teach you how to beat "terrible" opponents. At your level, nearly all games are decided by exactly the sort of tactical blunders that Morphy will quickly teach you how to avoid and exploit.



                                          Once you're beating all the "terrible" players, you'll have moved up the ladder to "bad". Then you can look at the games of people like Lasker and Capablanca, who'll help you learn to think strategically too. Then you'll be a "so-so" player and maybe even a "good" one.



                                          The modern games are, as you say, pretty inscrutable. Modern players know so much about chess that most of what they do is basically micro-optimization in an attempt to play something that's 99.5% perfect instead of 99%. It is possible to learn from modern games, as long as they're very well annotated, explaining why alternative moves would be mistakes. But don't fall into the trap of thinking "Carlsen played Bb4 and I was thinking that Nc4 looks like a decent move. Why is it wrong?" Usually, there are two or three good moves in any position. Carlsen needs to play the absolutely best move because his opponent is a genius; you can play any of the good moves and be fine, because your opponent isn't a genius. Mostly, though, people who play chess for a hobby will learn much more from older games than modern ones.






                                          share|improve this answer

















                                          • 2




                                            Your first paragraph is a nice summary of exactly why I wanted to do this.
                                            – Derek Allums
                                            yesterday










                                          • A nitpick, but your use of "terrible" inconsistent IMO, you use it to refer to Morphy's opponents, like Paulsen, Bird, Andersen (Morphy's most famous games are against these opponents), who are probably at least 2200 in modern strength. And then you are talking about OP moving from "terrible" to "bad", which would imply that OP will become stronger than the mentioned players.
                                            – Akavall
                                            3 hours ago
















                                          4














                                          It absolutely makes sense to study Morphy. Sure, most of his opponents were "terrible" but so are most of your opponents. And, let's be honest, so are you, at the moment. Studying Morphy's games – and tactics in general – will teach you how to beat "terrible" opponents. At your level, nearly all games are decided by exactly the sort of tactical blunders that Morphy will quickly teach you how to avoid and exploit.



                                          Once you're beating all the "terrible" players, you'll have moved up the ladder to "bad". Then you can look at the games of people like Lasker and Capablanca, who'll help you learn to think strategically too. Then you'll be a "so-so" player and maybe even a "good" one.



                                          The modern games are, as you say, pretty inscrutable. Modern players know so much about chess that most of what they do is basically micro-optimization in an attempt to play something that's 99.5% perfect instead of 99%. It is possible to learn from modern games, as long as they're very well annotated, explaining why alternative moves would be mistakes. But don't fall into the trap of thinking "Carlsen played Bb4 and I was thinking that Nc4 looks like a decent move. Why is it wrong?" Usually, there are two or three good moves in any position. Carlsen needs to play the absolutely best move because his opponent is a genius; you can play any of the good moves and be fine, because your opponent isn't a genius. Mostly, though, people who play chess for a hobby will learn much more from older games than modern ones.






                                          share|improve this answer

















                                          • 2




                                            Your first paragraph is a nice summary of exactly why I wanted to do this.
                                            – Derek Allums
                                            yesterday










                                          • A nitpick, but your use of "terrible" inconsistent IMO, you use it to refer to Morphy's opponents, like Paulsen, Bird, Andersen (Morphy's most famous games are against these opponents), who are probably at least 2200 in modern strength. And then you are talking about OP moving from "terrible" to "bad", which would imply that OP will become stronger than the mentioned players.
                                            – Akavall
                                            3 hours ago














                                          4












                                          4








                                          4






                                          It absolutely makes sense to study Morphy. Sure, most of his opponents were "terrible" but so are most of your opponents. And, let's be honest, so are you, at the moment. Studying Morphy's games – and tactics in general – will teach you how to beat "terrible" opponents. At your level, nearly all games are decided by exactly the sort of tactical blunders that Morphy will quickly teach you how to avoid and exploit.



                                          Once you're beating all the "terrible" players, you'll have moved up the ladder to "bad". Then you can look at the games of people like Lasker and Capablanca, who'll help you learn to think strategically too. Then you'll be a "so-so" player and maybe even a "good" one.



                                          The modern games are, as you say, pretty inscrutable. Modern players know so much about chess that most of what they do is basically micro-optimization in an attempt to play something that's 99.5% perfect instead of 99%. It is possible to learn from modern games, as long as they're very well annotated, explaining why alternative moves would be mistakes. But don't fall into the trap of thinking "Carlsen played Bb4 and I was thinking that Nc4 looks like a decent move. Why is it wrong?" Usually, there are two or three good moves in any position. Carlsen needs to play the absolutely best move because his opponent is a genius; you can play any of the good moves and be fine, because your opponent isn't a genius. Mostly, though, people who play chess for a hobby will learn much more from older games than modern ones.






                                          share|improve this answer












                                          It absolutely makes sense to study Morphy. Sure, most of his opponents were "terrible" but so are most of your opponents. And, let's be honest, so are you, at the moment. Studying Morphy's games – and tactics in general – will teach you how to beat "terrible" opponents. At your level, nearly all games are decided by exactly the sort of tactical blunders that Morphy will quickly teach you how to avoid and exploit.



                                          Once you're beating all the "terrible" players, you'll have moved up the ladder to "bad". Then you can look at the games of people like Lasker and Capablanca, who'll help you learn to think strategically too. Then you'll be a "so-so" player and maybe even a "good" one.



                                          The modern games are, as you say, pretty inscrutable. Modern players know so much about chess that most of what they do is basically micro-optimization in an attempt to play something that's 99.5% perfect instead of 99%. It is possible to learn from modern games, as long as they're very well annotated, explaining why alternative moves would be mistakes. But don't fall into the trap of thinking "Carlsen played Bb4 and I was thinking that Nc4 looks like a decent move. Why is it wrong?" Usually, there are two or three good moves in any position. Carlsen needs to play the absolutely best move because his opponent is a genius; you can play any of the good moves and be fine, because your opponent isn't a genius. Mostly, though, people who play chess for a hobby will learn much more from older games than modern ones.







                                          share|improve this answer












                                          share|improve this answer



                                          share|improve this answer










                                          answered yesterday









                                          David Richerby

                                          1,6221025




                                          1,6221025








                                          • 2




                                            Your first paragraph is a nice summary of exactly why I wanted to do this.
                                            – Derek Allums
                                            yesterday










                                          • A nitpick, but your use of "terrible" inconsistent IMO, you use it to refer to Morphy's opponents, like Paulsen, Bird, Andersen (Morphy's most famous games are against these opponents), who are probably at least 2200 in modern strength. And then you are talking about OP moving from "terrible" to "bad", which would imply that OP will become stronger than the mentioned players.
                                            – Akavall
                                            3 hours ago














                                          • 2




                                            Your first paragraph is a nice summary of exactly why I wanted to do this.
                                            – Derek Allums
                                            yesterday










                                          • A nitpick, but your use of "terrible" inconsistent IMO, you use it to refer to Morphy's opponents, like Paulsen, Bird, Andersen (Morphy's most famous games are against these opponents), who are probably at least 2200 in modern strength. And then you are talking about OP moving from "terrible" to "bad", which would imply that OP will become stronger than the mentioned players.
                                            – Akavall
                                            3 hours ago








                                          2




                                          2




                                          Your first paragraph is a nice summary of exactly why I wanted to do this.
                                          – Derek Allums
                                          yesterday




                                          Your first paragraph is a nice summary of exactly why I wanted to do this.
                                          – Derek Allums
                                          yesterday












                                          A nitpick, but your use of "terrible" inconsistent IMO, you use it to refer to Morphy's opponents, like Paulsen, Bird, Andersen (Morphy's most famous games are against these opponents), who are probably at least 2200 in modern strength. And then you are talking about OP moving from "terrible" to "bad", which would imply that OP will become stronger than the mentioned players.
                                          – Akavall
                                          3 hours ago




                                          A nitpick, but your use of "terrible" inconsistent IMO, you use it to refer to Morphy's opponents, like Paulsen, Bird, Andersen (Morphy's most famous games are against these opponents), who are probably at least 2200 in modern strength. And then you are talking about OP moving from "terrible" to "bad", which would imply that OP will become stronger than the mentioned players.
                                          – Akavall
                                          3 hours ago


















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