'plecto, plectere, plexi', -tor/-sor form (agent noun)












4















How would one add the agent noun suffix (normally -tor) to the verb 'plecto' (I weave/twist)? It's been a few years — about 10 — but if I recall correctly, verbs whose stem ends in 't' uses -sor as the agent suffix. This would be 'plectsor', which seems very unwieldy; however, plecttor is certainly not correct. Obviously in English there are verbs whose agent form is irregular, and some which have no such form. Is this the case with this Latin verb? If this is the case, what would be the correct way to form the noun in theory?
Thank you in advance.










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    4















    How would one add the agent noun suffix (normally -tor) to the verb 'plecto' (I weave/twist)? It's been a few years — about 10 — but if I recall correctly, verbs whose stem ends in 't' uses -sor as the agent suffix. This would be 'plectsor', which seems very unwieldy; however, plecttor is certainly not correct. Obviously in English there are verbs whose agent form is irregular, and some which have no such form. Is this the case with this Latin verb? If this is the case, what would be the correct way to form the noun in theory?
    Thank you in advance.










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    Clinton J is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.























      4












      4








      4








      How would one add the agent noun suffix (normally -tor) to the verb 'plecto' (I weave/twist)? It's been a few years — about 10 — but if I recall correctly, verbs whose stem ends in 't' uses -sor as the agent suffix. This would be 'plectsor', which seems very unwieldy; however, plecttor is certainly not correct. Obviously in English there are verbs whose agent form is irregular, and some which have no such form. Is this the case with this Latin verb? If this is the case, what would be the correct way to form the noun in theory?
      Thank you in advance.










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Clinton J is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      How would one add the agent noun suffix (normally -tor) to the verb 'plecto' (I weave/twist)? It's been a few years — about 10 — but if I recall correctly, verbs whose stem ends in 't' uses -sor as the agent suffix. This would be 'plectsor', which seems very unwieldy; however, plecttor is certainly not correct. Obviously in English there are verbs whose agent form is irregular, and some which have no such form. Is this the case with this Latin verb? If this is the case, what would be the correct way to form the noun in theory?
      Thank you in advance.







      verbs morphologia derivation coniugatio






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      edited 2 days ago









      Joonas Ilmavirta

      46.3k1158265




      46.3k1158265






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      asked 2 days ago









      Clinton JClinton J

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          3 Answers
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          5














          Good question! Let's break it down.



          The root of this verb is plect- (notably not plēct- which has a different meaning!). If you look it up in a dictionary you'll see the four parts plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus, which literally mean "I weave, to weave, I wove, woven".



          Now, the suffix is usually written as -tor, but a better way to think of it is -or, without the t. You put it on the supine stem, aka the past participle stem, aka the fourth principle part: this is the last form listed in the dictionary, the one that ends in -us. In this case, it's plexus. Take the -us off and add the -or and you're done, getting plex-or.



          To go a bit more in depth, most verbs use a suffix -t- to make the fourth principle part, but some instead use -s-, especially third conjugation verbs ending in dental consonants. This verb happens to be one of those! The actual reasons for choosing one or the other are unclear, but seem to go back to Proto-Italic or even Proto-Italo-Celtic. Back then, either one could be used, but the speakers generally picked one and stuck with it by the time of Latin.



          So that's where the s comes from, but why don't we see *plectsor? Well, that is indeed what you get when you glue all the pieces together. But the combination ts isn't allowed within Latin words (with the singular exception of etsi which is really two words written together for convenience). So the ts simplifies to s, giving plecsor. Compare the word for "night", in the nominative: noct-s → noc-s → nox.



          Finally, cs in Latin is written as x, as in duc-s → dux. This doesn't actually change anything about the pronunciation, it's just a spelling quirk. So our final result is plexor.






          share|improve this answer


























          • +1 despite my losing the race to answer the question. :) Isn't the choice between t and s the same in the agent noun as in the perfect participle, at least mostly?

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            2 days ago











          • @JoonasIlmavirta Good question! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it sounds like you're correct—let me think for a moment and see if I can come up with any counter-examples.

            – Draconis
            2 days ago











          • @JoonasIlmavirta I'm convinced you're right now! Edited my answer to reflect that. Even if there are some rare exceptions, that's a much more useful way for a learner to think of it.

            – Draconis
            2 days ago











          • Just to be sure, I asked a follow-up question. I'm not aware of any counterexamples, but I don't know how universal it really is.

            – Joonas Ilmavirta
            2 days ago



















          5














          You seem to be missing the four part in the verb's dictionary entry: plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus.
          The agent noun is derived from the perfect participle stem, which for this verb is plex-.
          This stem is obtained by removing -us from the participle listed in most dictionaries.



          To this stem you add -or, so the noun you are after is plexor.
          (This kind of counts as -sor because x=cs.)
          The participle stem tends to be indicated by -t- or -s-.
          One important aspect of using the perfect participle stem is that you have one less thing to memorize.



          There are exceptions, but they are rare.
          Deriving agents from the perfect participle stem is an excellent rule of thumb.






          share|improve this answer

































            3














            I believe that even if it helps to view the suffix as -or, it is etymologically accurate to think of it as -tor. (At least, that is what Wiktionary says.)



            But even from that perspective, you can derive the correct form in this case if you apply a few phonological rules to the form you got, "plect-tor". The main rule you need to apply here is about how to replace the consonant clusters TT and DT that would otherwise arise from affixing a T-initial suffix. You are correct about using S, but you don't just change the consonant in the suffix. Rather, the whole TT or DT cluster produced from affixation turns into S when it is preceded by a consonant and followed by a vowel. That would give "plecsor", but CS is regularly written as X in Latin, giving us "plexor".



            A TT or DT cluster produced from suffixation turns into SS when it is preceded by a short vowel and followed by a vowel, and it turns into S when it is preceded by a long vowel and followed by a vowel.



            The rules for how to modify these clusters when they were followed by a consonant aren't entirely clear to me; this was somewhat rare, and it seems that they could turn into ST before R. See the answer to this question for examples: Are there feminine and neuter versions of "professor"?






            share|improve this answer

























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              3 Answers
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              3 Answers
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              active

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              active

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              5














              Good question! Let's break it down.



              The root of this verb is plect- (notably not plēct- which has a different meaning!). If you look it up in a dictionary you'll see the four parts plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus, which literally mean "I weave, to weave, I wove, woven".



              Now, the suffix is usually written as -tor, but a better way to think of it is -or, without the t. You put it on the supine stem, aka the past participle stem, aka the fourth principle part: this is the last form listed in the dictionary, the one that ends in -us. In this case, it's plexus. Take the -us off and add the -or and you're done, getting plex-or.



              To go a bit more in depth, most verbs use a suffix -t- to make the fourth principle part, but some instead use -s-, especially third conjugation verbs ending in dental consonants. This verb happens to be one of those! The actual reasons for choosing one or the other are unclear, but seem to go back to Proto-Italic or even Proto-Italo-Celtic. Back then, either one could be used, but the speakers generally picked one and stuck with it by the time of Latin.



              So that's where the s comes from, but why don't we see *plectsor? Well, that is indeed what you get when you glue all the pieces together. But the combination ts isn't allowed within Latin words (with the singular exception of etsi which is really two words written together for convenience). So the ts simplifies to s, giving plecsor. Compare the word for "night", in the nominative: noct-s → noc-s → nox.



              Finally, cs in Latin is written as x, as in duc-s → dux. This doesn't actually change anything about the pronunciation, it's just a spelling quirk. So our final result is plexor.






              share|improve this answer


























              • +1 despite my losing the race to answer the question. :) Isn't the choice between t and s the same in the agent noun as in the perfect participle, at least mostly?

                – Joonas Ilmavirta
                2 days ago











              • @JoonasIlmavirta Good question! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it sounds like you're correct—let me think for a moment and see if I can come up with any counter-examples.

                – Draconis
                2 days ago











              • @JoonasIlmavirta I'm convinced you're right now! Edited my answer to reflect that. Even if there are some rare exceptions, that's a much more useful way for a learner to think of it.

                – Draconis
                2 days ago











              • Just to be sure, I asked a follow-up question. I'm not aware of any counterexamples, but I don't know how universal it really is.

                – Joonas Ilmavirta
                2 days ago
















              5














              Good question! Let's break it down.



              The root of this verb is plect- (notably not plēct- which has a different meaning!). If you look it up in a dictionary you'll see the four parts plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus, which literally mean "I weave, to weave, I wove, woven".



              Now, the suffix is usually written as -tor, but a better way to think of it is -or, without the t. You put it on the supine stem, aka the past participle stem, aka the fourth principle part: this is the last form listed in the dictionary, the one that ends in -us. In this case, it's plexus. Take the -us off and add the -or and you're done, getting plex-or.



              To go a bit more in depth, most verbs use a suffix -t- to make the fourth principle part, but some instead use -s-, especially third conjugation verbs ending in dental consonants. This verb happens to be one of those! The actual reasons for choosing one or the other are unclear, but seem to go back to Proto-Italic or even Proto-Italo-Celtic. Back then, either one could be used, but the speakers generally picked one and stuck with it by the time of Latin.



              So that's where the s comes from, but why don't we see *plectsor? Well, that is indeed what you get when you glue all the pieces together. But the combination ts isn't allowed within Latin words (with the singular exception of etsi which is really two words written together for convenience). So the ts simplifies to s, giving plecsor. Compare the word for "night", in the nominative: noct-s → noc-s → nox.



              Finally, cs in Latin is written as x, as in duc-s → dux. This doesn't actually change anything about the pronunciation, it's just a spelling quirk. So our final result is plexor.






              share|improve this answer


























              • +1 despite my losing the race to answer the question. :) Isn't the choice between t and s the same in the agent noun as in the perfect participle, at least mostly?

                – Joonas Ilmavirta
                2 days ago











              • @JoonasIlmavirta Good question! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it sounds like you're correct—let me think for a moment and see if I can come up with any counter-examples.

                – Draconis
                2 days ago











              • @JoonasIlmavirta I'm convinced you're right now! Edited my answer to reflect that. Even if there are some rare exceptions, that's a much more useful way for a learner to think of it.

                – Draconis
                2 days ago











              • Just to be sure, I asked a follow-up question. I'm not aware of any counterexamples, but I don't know how universal it really is.

                – Joonas Ilmavirta
                2 days ago














              5












              5








              5







              Good question! Let's break it down.



              The root of this verb is plect- (notably not plēct- which has a different meaning!). If you look it up in a dictionary you'll see the four parts plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus, which literally mean "I weave, to weave, I wove, woven".



              Now, the suffix is usually written as -tor, but a better way to think of it is -or, without the t. You put it on the supine stem, aka the past participle stem, aka the fourth principle part: this is the last form listed in the dictionary, the one that ends in -us. In this case, it's plexus. Take the -us off and add the -or and you're done, getting plex-or.



              To go a bit more in depth, most verbs use a suffix -t- to make the fourth principle part, but some instead use -s-, especially third conjugation verbs ending in dental consonants. This verb happens to be one of those! The actual reasons for choosing one or the other are unclear, but seem to go back to Proto-Italic or even Proto-Italo-Celtic. Back then, either one could be used, but the speakers generally picked one and stuck with it by the time of Latin.



              So that's where the s comes from, but why don't we see *plectsor? Well, that is indeed what you get when you glue all the pieces together. But the combination ts isn't allowed within Latin words (with the singular exception of etsi which is really two words written together for convenience). So the ts simplifies to s, giving plecsor. Compare the word for "night", in the nominative: noct-s → noc-s → nox.



              Finally, cs in Latin is written as x, as in duc-s → dux. This doesn't actually change anything about the pronunciation, it's just a spelling quirk. So our final result is plexor.






              share|improve this answer















              Good question! Let's break it down.



              The root of this verb is plect- (notably not plēct- which has a different meaning!). If you look it up in a dictionary you'll see the four parts plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus, which literally mean "I weave, to weave, I wove, woven".



              Now, the suffix is usually written as -tor, but a better way to think of it is -or, without the t. You put it on the supine stem, aka the past participle stem, aka the fourth principle part: this is the last form listed in the dictionary, the one that ends in -us. In this case, it's plexus. Take the -us off and add the -or and you're done, getting plex-or.



              To go a bit more in depth, most verbs use a suffix -t- to make the fourth principle part, but some instead use -s-, especially third conjugation verbs ending in dental consonants. This verb happens to be one of those! The actual reasons for choosing one or the other are unclear, but seem to go back to Proto-Italic or even Proto-Italo-Celtic. Back then, either one could be used, but the speakers generally picked one and stuck with it by the time of Latin.



              So that's where the s comes from, but why don't we see *plectsor? Well, that is indeed what you get when you glue all the pieces together. But the combination ts isn't allowed within Latin words (with the singular exception of etsi which is really two words written together for convenience). So the ts simplifies to s, giving plecsor. Compare the word for "night", in the nominative: noct-s → noc-s → nox.



              Finally, cs in Latin is written as x, as in duc-s → dux. This doesn't actually change anything about the pronunciation, it's just a spelling quirk. So our final result is plexor.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 2 days ago

























              answered 2 days ago









              DraconisDraconis

              15.4k22067




              15.4k22067













              • +1 despite my losing the race to answer the question. :) Isn't the choice between t and s the same in the agent noun as in the perfect participle, at least mostly?

                – Joonas Ilmavirta
                2 days ago











              • @JoonasIlmavirta Good question! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it sounds like you're correct—let me think for a moment and see if I can come up with any counter-examples.

                – Draconis
                2 days ago











              • @JoonasIlmavirta I'm convinced you're right now! Edited my answer to reflect that. Even if there are some rare exceptions, that's a much more useful way for a learner to think of it.

                – Draconis
                2 days ago











              • Just to be sure, I asked a follow-up question. I'm not aware of any counterexamples, but I don't know how universal it really is.

                – Joonas Ilmavirta
                2 days ago



















              • +1 despite my losing the race to answer the question. :) Isn't the choice between t and s the same in the agent noun as in the perfect participle, at least mostly?

                – Joonas Ilmavirta
                2 days ago











              • @JoonasIlmavirta Good question! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it sounds like you're correct—let me think for a moment and see if I can come up with any counter-examples.

                – Draconis
                2 days ago











              • @JoonasIlmavirta I'm convinced you're right now! Edited my answer to reflect that. Even if there are some rare exceptions, that's a much more useful way for a learner to think of it.

                – Draconis
                2 days ago











              • Just to be sure, I asked a follow-up question. I'm not aware of any counterexamples, but I don't know how universal it really is.

                – Joonas Ilmavirta
                2 days ago

















              +1 despite my losing the race to answer the question. :) Isn't the choice between t and s the same in the agent noun as in the perfect participle, at least mostly?

              – Joonas Ilmavirta
              2 days ago





              +1 despite my losing the race to answer the question. :) Isn't the choice between t and s the same in the agent noun as in the perfect participle, at least mostly?

              – Joonas Ilmavirta
              2 days ago













              @JoonasIlmavirta Good question! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it sounds like you're correct—let me think for a moment and see if I can come up with any counter-examples.

              – Draconis
              2 days ago





              @JoonasIlmavirta Good question! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it sounds like you're correct—let me think for a moment and see if I can come up with any counter-examples.

              – Draconis
              2 days ago













              @JoonasIlmavirta I'm convinced you're right now! Edited my answer to reflect that. Even if there are some rare exceptions, that's a much more useful way for a learner to think of it.

              – Draconis
              2 days ago





              @JoonasIlmavirta I'm convinced you're right now! Edited my answer to reflect that. Even if there are some rare exceptions, that's a much more useful way for a learner to think of it.

              – Draconis
              2 days ago













              Just to be sure, I asked a follow-up question. I'm not aware of any counterexamples, but I don't know how universal it really is.

              – Joonas Ilmavirta
              2 days ago





              Just to be sure, I asked a follow-up question. I'm not aware of any counterexamples, but I don't know how universal it really is.

              – Joonas Ilmavirta
              2 days ago











              5














              You seem to be missing the four part in the verb's dictionary entry: plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus.
              The agent noun is derived from the perfect participle stem, which for this verb is plex-.
              This stem is obtained by removing -us from the participle listed in most dictionaries.



              To this stem you add -or, so the noun you are after is plexor.
              (This kind of counts as -sor because x=cs.)
              The participle stem tends to be indicated by -t- or -s-.
              One important aspect of using the perfect participle stem is that you have one less thing to memorize.



              There are exceptions, but they are rare.
              Deriving agents from the perfect participle stem is an excellent rule of thumb.






              share|improve this answer






























                5














                You seem to be missing the four part in the verb's dictionary entry: plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus.
                The agent noun is derived from the perfect participle stem, which for this verb is plex-.
                This stem is obtained by removing -us from the participle listed in most dictionaries.



                To this stem you add -or, so the noun you are after is plexor.
                (This kind of counts as -sor because x=cs.)
                The participle stem tends to be indicated by -t- or -s-.
                One important aspect of using the perfect participle stem is that you have one less thing to memorize.



                There are exceptions, but they are rare.
                Deriving agents from the perfect participle stem is an excellent rule of thumb.






                share|improve this answer




























                  5












                  5








                  5







                  You seem to be missing the four part in the verb's dictionary entry: plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus.
                  The agent noun is derived from the perfect participle stem, which for this verb is plex-.
                  This stem is obtained by removing -us from the participle listed in most dictionaries.



                  To this stem you add -or, so the noun you are after is plexor.
                  (This kind of counts as -sor because x=cs.)
                  The participle stem tends to be indicated by -t- or -s-.
                  One important aspect of using the perfect participle stem is that you have one less thing to memorize.



                  There are exceptions, but they are rare.
                  Deriving agents from the perfect participle stem is an excellent rule of thumb.






                  share|improve this answer















                  You seem to be missing the four part in the verb's dictionary entry: plectō, plectere, plexī, plexus.
                  The agent noun is derived from the perfect participle stem, which for this verb is plex-.
                  This stem is obtained by removing -us from the participle listed in most dictionaries.



                  To this stem you add -or, so the noun you are after is plexor.
                  (This kind of counts as -sor because x=cs.)
                  The participle stem tends to be indicated by -t- or -s-.
                  One important aspect of using the perfect participle stem is that you have one less thing to memorize.



                  There are exceptions, but they are rare.
                  Deriving agents from the perfect participle stem is an excellent rule of thumb.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited yesterday

























                  answered 2 days ago









                  Joonas IlmavirtaJoonas Ilmavirta

                  46.3k1158265




                  46.3k1158265























                      3














                      I believe that even if it helps to view the suffix as -or, it is etymologically accurate to think of it as -tor. (At least, that is what Wiktionary says.)



                      But even from that perspective, you can derive the correct form in this case if you apply a few phonological rules to the form you got, "plect-tor". The main rule you need to apply here is about how to replace the consonant clusters TT and DT that would otherwise arise from affixing a T-initial suffix. You are correct about using S, but you don't just change the consonant in the suffix. Rather, the whole TT or DT cluster produced from affixation turns into S when it is preceded by a consonant and followed by a vowel. That would give "plecsor", but CS is regularly written as X in Latin, giving us "plexor".



                      A TT or DT cluster produced from suffixation turns into SS when it is preceded by a short vowel and followed by a vowel, and it turns into S when it is preceded by a long vowel and followed by a vowel.



                      The rules for how to modify these clusters when they were followed by a consonant aren't entirely clear to me; this was somewhat rare, and it seems that they could turn into ST before R. See the answer to this question for examples: Are there feminine and neuter versions of "professor"?






                      share|improve this answer






























                        3














                        I believe that even if it helps to view the suffix as -or, it is etymologically accurate to think of it as -tor. (At least, that is what Wiktionary says.)



                        But even from that perspective, you can derive the correct form in this case if you apply a few phonological rules to the form you got, "plect-tor". The main rule you need to apply here is about how to replace the consonant clusters TT and DT that would otherwise arise from affixing a T-initial suffix. You are correct about using S, but you don't just change the consonant in the suffix. Rather, the whole TT or DT cluster produced from affixation turns into S when it is preceded by a consonant and followed by a vowel. That would give "plecsor", but CS is regularly written as X in Latin, giving us "plexor".



                        A TT or DT cluster produced from suffixation turns into SS when it is preceded by a short vowel and followed by a vowel, and it turns into S when it is preceded by a long vowel and followed by a vowel.



                        The rules for how to modify these clusters when they were followed by a consonant aren't entirely clear to me; this was somewhat rare, and it seems that they could turn into ST before R. See the answer to this question for examples: Are there feminine and neuter versions of "professor"?






                        share|improve this answer




























                          3












                          3








                          3







                          I believe that even if it helps to view the suffix as -or, it is etymologically accurate to think of it as -tor. (At least, that is what Wiktionary says.)



                          But even from that perspective, you can derive the correct form in this case if you apply a few phonological rules to the form you got, "plect-tor". The main rule you need to apply here is about how to replace the consonant clusters TT and DT that would otherwise arise from affixing a T-initial suffix. You are correct about using S, but you don't just change the consonant in the suffix. Rather, the whole TT or DT cluster produced from affixation turns into S when it is preceded by a consonant and followed by a vowel. That would give "plecsor", but CS is regularly written as X in Latin, giving us "plexor".



                          A TT or DT cluster produced from suffixation turns into SS when it is preceded by a short vowel and followed by a vowel, and it turns into S when it is preceded by a long vowel and followed by a vowel.



                          The rules for how to modify these clusters when they were followed by a consonant aren't entirely clear to me; this was somewhat rare, and it seems that they could turn into ST before R. See the answer to this question for examples: Are there feminine and neuter versions of "professor"?






                          share|improve this answer















                          I believe that even if it helps to view the suffix as -or, it is etymologically accurate to think of it as -tor. (At least, that is what Wiktionary says.)



                          But even from that perspective, you can derive the correct form in this case if you apply a few phonological rules to the form you got, "plect-tor". The main rule you need to apply here is about how to replace the consonant clusters TT and DT that would otherwise arise from affixing a T-initial suffix. You are correct about using S, but you don't just change the consonant in the suffix. Rather, the whole TT or DT cluster produced from affixation turns into S when it is preceded by a consonant and followed by a vowel. That would give "plecsor", but CS is regularly written as X in Latin, giving us "plexor".



                          A TT or DT cluster produced from suffixation turns into SS when it is preceded by a short vowel and followed by a vowel, and it turns into S when it is preceded by a long vowel and followed by a vowel.



                          The rules for how to modify these clusters when they were followed by a consonant aren't entirely clear to me; this was somewhat rare, and it seems that they could turn into ST before R. See the answer to this question for examples: Are there feminine and neuter versions of "professor"?







                          share|improve this answer














                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer








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                          sumelicsumelic

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