What to do after I signed a blank sheet of paper given to me by my manager?
I work as a teacher in a kindergarten for almost two years now.
Last week, my manager called me to sign a warning letter about a small issue that is not my fault and not part of my job description. I refused to sign and my manager told me to discuss this the next day. The next day, I met my manager and after some discussion she told me "do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later".
I have signed a completely white paper - not even a warning form; it is a completely blank piece of paper! Yes, this is the most idiotic and stupid act that anyone could do. I have now realised how dangerous what I did is. I don't know what I should do now?
My manager is not an ethical person; she has a high desire to feel important. She always wants to feel that all teachers are following her orders. I do not know what she is planning to do with this or if she is really planning to do something bad with it.
Shall I speak to HR about this case although I do not have any evidence?
human-resources unprofessional-behavior
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add a comment |
I work as a teacher in a kindergarten for almost two years now.
Last week, my manager called me to sign a warning letter about a small issue that is not my fault and not part of my job description. I refused to sign and my manager told me to discuss this the next day. The next day, I met my manager and after some discussion she told me "do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later".
I have signed a completely white paper - not even a warning form; it is a completely blank piece of paper! Yes, this is the most idiotic and stupid act that anyone could do. I have now realised how dangerous what I did is. I don't know what I should do now?
My manager is not an ethical person; she has a high desire to feel important. She always wants to feel that all teachers are following her orders. I do not know what she is planning to do with this or if she is really planning to do something bad with it.
Shall I speak to HR about this case although I do not have any evidence?
human-resources unprofessional-behavior
New contributor
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
add a comment |
I work as a teacher in a kindergarten for almost two years now.
Last week, my manager called me to sign a warning letter about a small issue that is not my fault and not part of my job description. I refused to sign and my manager told me to discuss this the next day. The next day, I met my manager and after some discussion she told me "do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later".
I have signed a completely white paper - not even a warning form; it is a completely blank piece of paper! Yes, this is the most idiotic and stupid act that anyone could do. I have now realised how dangerous what I did is. I don't know what I should do now?
My manager is not an ethical person; she has a high desire to feel important. She always wants to feel that all teachers are following her orders. I do not know what she is planning to do with this or if she is really planning to do something bad with it.
Shall I speak to HR about this case although I do not have any evidence?
human-resources unprofessional-behavior
New contributor
I work as a teacher in a kindergarten for almost two years now.
Last week, my manager called me to sign a warning letter about a small issue that is not my fault and not part of my job description. I refused to sign and my manager told me to discuss this the next day. The next day, I met my manager and after some discussion she told me "do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later".
I have signed a completely white paper - not even a warning form; it is a completely blank piece of paper! Yes, this is the most idiotic and stupid act that anyone could do. I have now realised how dangerous what I did is. I don't know what I should do now?
My manager is not an ethical person; she has a high desire to feel important. She always wants to feel that all teachers are following her orders. I do not know what she is planning to do with this or if she is really planning to do something bad with it.
Shall I speak to HR about this case although I do not have any evidence?
human-resources unprofessional-behavior
human-resources unprofessional-behavior
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
add a comment |
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Jane S♦
yesterday
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14 Answers
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Yes you are in danger.
However, anything your manager does (like printing a new letter over the signature) is fraud, and quite the bad variety too.
As she was doing what she was doing in the capacity of your manager, this is now the problem of your school/company/district or whatever the organisation is where you work.
HR is not your friend but in this case they will (or at least should) be your ally. To be a bit safer you could make it sound like you are just asking a question ("(describe in detail what happened), hey what was this about?", that way you get both documentation and can stay on polite footing with HR. I'd reccommend dropping by the office after the email too (if that is not too weird for a teacher in your district/area) just to chat up.
Do this now, get this on paper, leave the kids to twiddle their thumbs if you must.
Ok, maybe not leave the kids (as per comment) but I'd suggest getting at least a short "hey I have a question I'm very worried about, I'll email once I have time, mind if I drop by in the afternoon?" out of the way. Sociopaths have a tendency to proactively discredit their victims so you need to be ahead of that.
47
+1 - Not so sure about leaving the kids but hey :)
– Twyxz
2 days ago
8
I'd leave the kids, to some one else... I'm sure you can find someone to watch them for 30 mins while you get this sorted.
– UKMonkey
2 days ago
15
This is a good answer, but in addition you really have to get something in writing from HR that confirms the communication. HR sometimes has the tendency to give you a sympathetic ear and then immediately swipe it all under the rug
– Hilmar
2 days ago
10
Perhaps the teacher's union would be a good ally as well.
– CramerTV
2 days ago
10
Add to this; you should make sure that HR understands that no document which is not signed with at least one witness present should be considered valid. Boss can just photocopy the document now.
– C Bauer
2 days ago
|
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Speak to HR immediately, you signed a blank piece of paper - make sure it stays blank
Normally advice around speaking to HR is "HR are not your friend". However, this is in the context of bringing up general workplace greivances - as HR's remit is to protect the company, not the employees.
In this case, you have a manager who plans to break the law - by forging a document with your signature. This would put your kindergarten in a serious legal problem, especially if that forged document was ever used to terminate your employment. This is exactly the kind of situation HR do not want to happen.
You need to explain to them exactly what has happened (in writing via email, and then in person), and that there is now a blank sheet of paper with your signature, you believe will be used to fraudulently create a signed warning letter.
Importantly, I'd recommend you only focus on the potential misuse of your signature on the blank letter. Anything else, such as personal issues with this manager - will not necessarily be in their interest to help you with (and the usual "HR doesn't love you" advice applies).
For your personal sake; it's worth adding that while it was an extremely stupid move to sign that paper - it is understandable, and abusive managers have managed to push each of us to lower our personal standards at one time or another (so don't worry about how it happened, just get it sorted). Legally, that paper has no value, and you need to remember that you haven't legally given somebody the right to write whatever they want - you have unfortunately just given them the opportunity to break the law.
48
To OP: read this last paragraph again. And once more. This is abusive behaviour, and it is not your fault. We all wish you can do better next time, but it's completely understandable that you fell into this. Now go fix it :)
– mgarciaisaia
2 days ago
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Amplifying what the other answers already said: Talking to HR is NOT enough, you MUST file a written report.
Write exactly down what happened with as much detail (time, location, names, quotes) as you can recall. Stick to the facts, don't put any emotion or interpretation into it. Take this report to HR make a copy for yourself. Make HR sign your copy and confirm in writing that they have received the report. Insist that they attach this report to your personell file.
You may want to have this looked over by a lawyer, before you file it.
Make sure you are friendly and co-operative with HR, but also be assertive when they try to push you off or ignore you. I don't think they can legally refuse to accept the report and confirm it's reception (again, a lawyer would help here).
Unfortunately, your blank signature could be a ticking time bomb. HR may try to sweep it under the rug and then it pops up 1 year later as a signed confession to something nasty. At that time, there may be entirely different people in HR. This needs to be documented clearly and you need written proof of it, so you have something to defend yourself with if you need it.
Ideally you get the paper back, but this may not happen. It's possible that your manager will simply deny that this happened. Or she may say "I already threw it away" or "I can't find it at the moment". HR won't be able to do much about this. Hence, you need thorough protection in writing.
1
I don't think you can "make" HR sign anything, but typing, "I acknowledge receipt of this document" with a space for s signature could make it more palatable.
– Bob Brown
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Okay, in matters like this.
HR IS YOUR NEW BEST FRIEND
This manager is dangerous, and likely committing some fraudulent action. I won't scold you about signing a blank anything as you already realize the implications.
Write down all the events leading up to this, detail the event itself, walk into HR with your account and ask to see any additions to your file since that date.
The danger is not just to you, but to anyone else that deals with this person. HR needs to be alerted to protect you and any other employees who engage with him/her. This is one of the reasons HR exists, and this is absolutely a matter for them.
RUN, don't walk to the HR department.
5
Don't you usually say "HR is not your friend"? It seems this is a big deal.
– wizzwizz4
yesterday
9
@wizzwizz4 HR is your "friend" not when you're unhappy about your work for some generic reason, but in cases where yours and the company's interests align. In this case, stopping a widely publicised lawsuit where the manager in a school commits fraud most certainly causes those interests to align.
– berry120
20 hours ago
1
@wizzwizz4 HR is still not being your friend. It just so happens that what's bad for the company/entity is also bad for HR, so HR, in this particular case, will work to correct that, which just so happens to also be what you need. The differences are subtle.
– code_dredd
17 hours ago
"The enemy of your enemy is your friend." In this case, HR is your friend. This manager is as much a threat to HR as it is to the OP.
– Nelson
1 hour ago
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There are some notes about going to HR about "potential misconduct" which is part of why I'm taking the time to write this as a separate answer.
You can not control what your manager does. You can not anticipate what your manager will do. Speculating as to what your manager conceivably might do is a good way to give them an actionable grievance that you've yourself recorded with HR and turn this into a back and forth over something other than what actually happened, which is what you don't want in a situation like this.
You do need to document this with HR
But to be clear, you need to document only what you did and why you did it:
Your manager requested you sign a blank sheet of paper. You signed a blank sheet of paper and gave it to your manager, per their request. [You can repeat what they told you about why they were making that request, but I would avoid getting embroiled in that: ideally keep this as cleanly focused on the basic hard facts as possible, so there's not room for argument later on about who said what.] You didn't think anything of it at the time, and you try to be a good employee who does what they are told [or whatever you'd like to say in that regard of following orders], but for clarification's sake you would now like documented that what you signed was a blank sheet of paper, and that is the only thing you are agreeing to having signed, because THAT is what you signed.
If a date or something else was requested on it, note that. If it is literally just your signature, note that.
Don't speculate on what your manager might or might not do with the blank paper you signed. Don't accuse your manager of intending to commit fraud. (if your manager DOES commit fraud, then address it as such: but the key here is do NOT accuse them of something that they haven't actually done yet)
Do create a paper trail. Email it, BCC a personal account, and request to schedule a discussion or at least a "quick chat" in person with someone regarding making sure it gets properly documented. When you go, make sure you print off a paper copy to take with you so you have a reference of what you sent that you can refer back to if things get stressful, and as a reminder to keep it simply focused on the basic facts of what you did and that it was at the manager's request.
Don't make a big deal out of it: just be calm yet firm about wanting it documented. If HR (ideally) wants to make a big deal out of it, that's on HR, let them be the ones to press the concern and don't interject it yourself. Keep your own focus on what you did and why, and your expressed concerns related to that specifically, not on what your manager might or might not do. Don't be the one who turns it into a big thing, because other than being an odd and inappropriate request, nothing has happened yet. Don't accuse your manager of anything at this point. If necessary or pressed, you can state that your concern is something very mundane and not specifically related to your manager, like "what if it gets lost and someone else finds it?" but my advice would be to simply keep things straightforward as a matter of just wanting it documented in your record since it was at your manager's request, but that you have no specific concerns and just want an official record of having done so per request.
If you do this and it turns into something where HR has you sit down across from your manager regarding this, don't try to engage. Don't be the one who asks the manager why they did that. Don't speculate. Just stick to the line that you just wanted what you did per request documented, and that all you did was sign a blank sheet of paper, which is all you agree to having signed, which hopefully everyone can agree is an odd thing to have signed (again, do not speculate about what someone else MIGHT do with such a piece of signed paper, focus only on what you did and that it was per a manager's request/order). Again, if pressed on why you are wanting it documented, stick to your immediate concern over it being strange to sign a blank piece of paper, not what might or might not be done with it.
6
The boss specifically said "just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later" (emphasis mine). That right there is admitting that she intends to commit fraud by forgery. The OP can not prove to anyone that the boss said that, however, OP can also not prove that the boss made them sign the blank paper. (Only someone with the right to search the office of the boss can prove that.) Therefore, when recounting the story neutrally, I would include the quote from the boss in which she admitted her intentions.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
The prevailing advice seems to be to talk to HR about it and document it there.
Note that a lot of these same people (on different questions) would probably tell you to not go to HR.
If the trip to HR does not go to your benefit, I think that you should write out what happened sign it, and get it notarized. That is admissible in court if the words above your signature turn out to be something other than what you were told they would be - and maybe even if they were what you were told that they would be.
There may also be a police report that you can file - as the intent could be fraud and you felt that you were under duress and had to sign the report. I presume you're under duress or at least stress because you mention how bad an idea it was to do that.
14
You don't go to HR if you were having drinks after hours with a coworker and they made some racist comments (didn't happen on company time, they don't care); you don't go to HR because that guy in accounting has bad B.O. (it's not illegal to stink - sadly); You absolutely do go to HR when your boss makes you sign a blank piece of paper and promises to write out the contents later. HR exists to protect the company, and this sort of thing could seriously damage the company if it wound up in court. That's the difference here.
– Steve-O
2 days ago
3
@Steve-O Yes. I was trying to convey: "many people who would normally tell you to not go to HR are telling you to go to HR. In the event that the trip to HR doesn't go in a useful direction... here's another idea."
– J. Chris Compton
2 days ago
5
@Steve-O I think the point is that if even those of us who are known for saying "HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND" are saying, "Go to HR", the OP should take it seriously.
– Richard U
2 days ago
add a comment |
Don't trust HR alone to document it. They are not your friend, and woukd be happy for this to go away, e.g. By you going away.
Comey that conversation
"To Comey" is a new verb that means to write down your recollection of events as soon as you can, because you feel there may later be disagreement over what happened. This should be done contemporaneously, or ASAP after the event. For instance, Comey sat in his car right after the meeting and wrote it down on a notepad. This proved very useful later.
I advise doing more. First, write down your recollection of the meeting. Be truthful and create a recording of the facts that would be difficult to challenge. Second, have it notarized, because you are not James Comey. That proves it was contemporaneous, and you didn't modify your recollection to suit the later situation, which humans tend to do.
This goes in your pocket to be used later, if pushing comes to shoving.
Third, I would write a courtesy letter capturing in short form your recall of events. Something like this
Thank you for speaking with me today about the Jan. 3 incident, and hearing my side of events. As I said, I feel this and this and this, and you pointed out this and this and this. I recall we found a middle ground of this and this and this.
We also agreed that you would write a modified warning letter to that general effect. For expediency, you asked me to sign a blank piece of paper on which that warning letter would be later placed, and I complied. I would like to have a copy of that letter when complete.
Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss the matter with me. Usual salutation, signature.
Nothing threatening in there. But it lays out the facts as they happened, and documents the existence of this blank signed letter, and puts him on notice that you intend to challenge any inappropriate use of it. Sneaky people hate facts being stated openly. Decent people don't care.
Then, go have that verbal conversation with HR.
add a comment |
This is a serious crime
"do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will
write the warning paragraph later".
Your boss has literally stated outright that she intends to forge a document. This is a serious crime in all jurisdictions and nations that I am aware of. Moreover, the implications could be anything from severe to devastating to you personally (and the company too).
I like the other answers, but I would most certainly report this to the police as well. Your boss has admitted to planning something criminal. In the best case scenario, the police gets a search warrant, goes to the office of the boss, and finds the blank piece of paper, backing up your story. (I realise this may be an unlikely outcome, but your story is the type which triggers the justice part in the conscience of people, and therefore it is not impossible.
However, even in the worst case scenario, the police will almost certainly have to write a report on what you tell them. Although I do recommend documenting this with HR as well, HR may or may not do their job, and the police is much more reliable to document this properly for you. If worst comes to worst (which, indeed, it very well may), and your job ends up on the line, having this documented by the police can be very useful. You may end up in court, and having this documented by the police may be a big help.
I realise that reporting your boss to the police is a rather aggressive approach, but this is also a quite extreme situation. Your boss has already admitted an intent to commit fraud against you, and the company. She has already taken the gloves off. You have very little to lose here. Your boss deserves to lose her job over this, not you.
Go to your/a union
Also, if you are not a member of a union, join one now, and ask them for assistance. They typically have legal teams which can help in such situations.
Consult a lawyer
If somehow a union can not provide a lawyer for you, consider consulting one on your own, if you can afford it.
Try to get the paper back, or to get evidence of what happened
This last part has only a mediocre chance of success, but you might as well try. There is a downvoted (possibly for typesetting, not content) answer which suggests talking to the boss about it, while secretly recording it, hoping that she somehow admits to what she has done, given that you are located in one of the few jurisdictions in which that is legal. If you are sure that you happen to find yourself in one of those jurisdictions, then I find that idea reasonable. If she does admit that and you get it recorded, that would be a rather valuable defense to you, and it would no longer be her words against yours. If you do happen to have such a conversation, you can, in the same conversation, ask for the paper back. This will put her on the spot, and it will be difficult for her to hold on to the paper without admitting that it exists. Also, there is the chance that she may give it back voluntarily. In that conversation, you may actually be polite. You can tell her that you thought about it, and you would like to see the warning before you sign it, and therefore want the blank paper back. If she refuses, you can step it up a notch, and inform her that what she is doing is illegal. After all that, I would say you have a pretty good chance of either getting the paper back, or getting a recording of her admitting what happened. In the worst case scenario that she just pretends she has no idea what you are talking about, and does not give you anything, then you have not really lost much, and you can proceed with HR, the police, a/your union, and a lawyer.
If recording without knowledge is not legal in your jurisdiction, I do not see why you should not have the conversation anyway, without recording. After all, what she is doing is pretty insane, and there may be a chance she has an ounce of sense in her and decides to give it back, fearing the possible consequences of committing fraud.
Act NOW, do not wait
Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Also, by acting quickly you can make something happen before she even writes anything on the sheet in the first place. The sheet of paper with nothing but your signature on it is the single most damning evidence here if found in the possession of your boss. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
3
+1 for reporting to the police.
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
add a comment |
Speak to a LAWYER immediately!
Best, one for public service employment if the kindergarten is run by the government.
Follow their instructions.
I personally would ask the manager to hand you back the paper.
Ideally empty, but it might well be too late for that.
Make sure, she handed you the original and keep it, DON'T HAND IT BACK.
Don't let her threaten or coerce you, even at the risk of your job. (I doubt that would fly as a reason and if she trumps up any other reason you can point to the empty paper she made you sign and claim she retaliates)
If it's empty, it should be safe to destroy it (maybe best after some time passed,but ask a lawyer)
If what she wrote is bad for you in any way or you disagree, bring it to your lawyer (she may have copies).
But lawyers may have a very different way to deal with this, so go to one as soon as possible.
add a comment |
Although many answers warn of potential grave consequences, let's not forget that the malicious intention of the manager is not a given.
I would recommend to first of all go to the manager, and say you don't feel good about the blank signature, and ask for it back. There is a chance that he/she has no malicious intent, and will simply give it to you. You can always sign a sheet again once he/she has printed the proper text on it.
Of course, if he/she is declining to return it, you should go after the recommendations from the other answers.
2
If they were good intentions, there would be no need to a so underhanded move as a blank sheet
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
While asking for the paper back is not a bad idea (as long as you do other things as well), I disagree that there may be no malicious intention here. The manager has indeed admitted to you that she is about to create a forged document. That can be described in no other way than malicious.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
Inform HR what has happened. HR MUST give you a signed document where they accept what you told them which you keep safe.
HR then knows that if a document with your signature turns up in the future, you can claim that you didn't sign it. Kind of a "get out of jail" card. So HR would be well advised to get that blank sheet from your manager, call you in, and destroy it in front of you with you signing that you saw it destroyed. That way everything is cleaned up.
You would need them as a witness anyway, because a document might turn up in the future that says you sold your car to the manager for $1,000.
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These are all "feel good" answers. You don't have a chance. Look for another job, immediately. You can waste your time and effort trying to fight city hall if you wish. Been there; done that: Lawyers, court, and all. It's useless. They hold all the cards. The realistic way to conserve as much of your time, effort, and frustration as possible is just to leave the job as soon as you possibly can. Anyone who tells you different is just trying to candy-coat a losing situation. You, and every well-meaning employee with a sadistic manager in the US, are toast. There is nothing you can do now except avoid "chasing bad money with good." Say goodbye to your kids.
New contributor
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Calm down, you made a mistake. Unfortunately running in and requesting that paper you signed (which possibly does not even exist -according to her, when challenged) is an issue.
Several steps.
1. Remember and write down EVERYTHING about that day. What you where wearing, what she was wearing, the time of day (before lunch, etc). Often times, seemingly irrelevant facts can help to corroborate your story, at the very least someone else may be able to verify these facts and lend weight to your story.
- Go back and talk to her about it, noting your discomfort with the whole thing
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO LEGALLY RECORD THE CONVERSATION DEPENDING ON YOUR STATE/COUNTRY
https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf
You may also try talking to a trusted coworker and ask if they know of anything like this happening to anyone else.
IF YOU DO PLAN TO RECORD AND YOU HAVE THE LEGAL SAFETY TO DO SO, PRACTICE AND REHEARSE THIS ACT, IDEALLY WITH A FRIEND OR TWO TO ENSURE YOU TAKE A GOOD RECORDING AND YOU DONT SEEM OVERLY SUSPICIOUS DOING IT.
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND - they will, wherever possible, side with the manager - your acts will be construed as you getting second thoughts after signing the paper.
New contributor
19
Uhm, there is bold text and stuff here so you don't have to SCREAM AT US USING CAPS. ;-)
– DonQuiKong
2 days ago
2
What @DonQuiKong said ;)
– rkeet
2 days ago
2
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND is practically my catch phrase around here. in this case, they are.
– Richard U
2 days ago
While there are many problems with this answer, I believe that if you are sure doing so is legal in your jurisdiction, then attempting to make this recording is not a bad idea at all.
– Revetahw
yesterday
HR may not be your friend, but in this case, HR's interests and your interests align. HR doesn't want the company to be at the wrong end of a fraud accusation, and you don't want to need to accuse the company of fraud.
– Mark
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Take notes and write down the chain of events as well as you remember as soon as possible and the time that they happened. I would wait and see what your manager writes in before you take any further action.
New contributor
7
-1 - see @Hilmar's answer A year from now that signed paper could have something far worse than a resignation on it. Passively hoping for the best is not a wise answer.
– Dan Pichelman
2 days ago
4
She just sold her house for one dollar. Why wait for the manager to show the contract to the bank before taking action?
– Hans Janssen
2 days ago
1
The manager said they would show the write up to the OP and that it would be minor. If it’s minor then there is no problem. If it’s major then there is a problem. The OP doesn’t yet know if there is a problem and doesn’t know how to properly react yet. If it’s no problem and the OP overreacts, then there is a new problem. I’m not advocating doing nothing, I’m advocating understanding what the OP should be reacting to before they react. You don’t just shoot at any sound you hear in the back yard, you look and see if it’s dangerous. If you go off shooting, well you might have a new problem.
– Tombo
yesterday
2
@Tombo Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
– Revetahw
yesterday
BTW you cannot sell a house with a single signature
– eckes
19 hours ago
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Yes you are in danger.
However, anything your manager does (like printing a new letter over the signature) is fraud, and quite the bad variety too.
As she was doing what she was doing in the capacity of your manager, this is now the problem of your school/company/district or whatever the organisation is where you work.
HR is not your friend but in this case they will (or at least should) be your ally. To be a bit safer you could make it sound like you are just asking a question ("(describe in detail what happened), hey what was this about?", that way you get both documentation and can stay on polite footing with HR. I'd reccommend dropping by the office after the email too (if that is not too weird for a teacher in your district/area) just to chat up.
Do this now, get this on paper, leave the kids to twiddle their thumbs if you must.
Ok, maybe not leave the kids (as per comment) but I'd suggest getting at least a short "hey I have a question I'm very worried about, I'll email once I have time, mind if I drop by in the afternoon?" out of the way. Sociopaths have a tendency to proactively discredit their victims so you need to be ahead of that.
47
+1 - Not so sure about leaving the kids but hey :)
– Twyxz
2 days ago
8
I'd leave the kids, to some one else... I'm sure you can find someone to watch them for 30 mins while you get this sorted.
– UKMonkey
2 days ago
15
This is a good answer, but in addition you really have to get something in writing from HR that confirms the communication. HR sometimes has the tendency to give you a sympathetic ear and then immediately swipe it all under the rug
– Hilmar
2 days ago
10
Perhaps the teacher's union would be a good ally as well.
– CramerTV
2 days ago
10
Add to this; you should make sure that HR understands that no document which is not signed with at least one witness present should be considered valid. Boss can just photocopy the document now.
– C Bauer
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
Yes you are in danger.
However, anything your manager does (like printing a new letter over the signature) is fraud, and quite the bad variety too.
As she was doing what she was doing in the capacity of your manager, this is now the problem of your school/company/district or whatever the organisation is where you work.
HR is not your friend but in this case they will (or at least should) be your ally. To be a bit safer you could make it sound like you are just asking a question ("(describe in detail what happened), hey what was this about?", that way you get both documentation and can stay on polite footing with HR. I'd reccommend dropping by the office after the email too (if that is not too weird for a teacher in your district/area) just to chat up.
Do this now, get this on paper, leave the kids to twiddle their thumbs if you must.
Ok, maybe not leave the kids (as per comment) but I'd suggest getting at least a short "hey I have a question I'm very worried about, I'll email once I have time, mind if I drop by in the afternoon?" out of the way. Sociopaths have a tendency to proactively discredit their victims so you need to be ahead of that.
47
+1 - Not so sure about leaving the kids but hey :)
– Twyxz
2 days ago
8
I'd leave the kids, to some one else... I'm sure you can find someone to watch them for 30 mins while you get this sorted.
– UKMonkey
2 days ago
15
This is a good answer, but in addition you really have to get something in writing from HR that confirms the communication. HR sometimes has the tendency to give you a sympathetic ear and then immediately swipe it all under the rug
– Hilmar
2 days ago
10
Perhaps the teacher's union would be a good ally as well.
– CramerTV
2 days ago
10
Add to this; you should make sure that HR understands that no document which is not signed with at least one witness present should be considered valid. Boss can just photocopy the document now.
– C Bauer
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
Yes you are in danger.
However, anything your manager does (like printing a new letter over the signature) is fraud, and quite the bad variety too.
As she was doing what she was doing in the capacity of your manager, this is now the problem of your school/company/district or whatever the organisation is where you work.
HR is not your friend but in this case they will (or at least should) be your ally. To be a bit safer you could make it sound like you are just asking a question ("(describe in detail what happened), hey what was this about?", that way you get both documentation and can stay on polite footing with HR. I'd reccommend dropping by the office after the email too (if that is not too weird for a teacher in your district/area) just to chat up.
Do this now, get this on paper, leave the kids to twiddle their thumbs if you must.
Ok, maybe not leave the kids (as per comment) but I'd suggest getting at least a short "hey I have a question I'm very worried about, I'll email once I have time, mind if I drop by in the afternoon?" out of the way. Sociopaths have a tendency to proactively discredit their victims so you need to be ahead of that.
Yes you are in danger.
However, anything your manager does (like printing a new letter over the signature) is fraud, and quite the bad variety too.
As she was doing what she was doing in the capacity of your manager, this is now the problem of your school/company/district or whatever the organisation is where you work.
HR is not your friend but in this case they will (or at least should) be your ally. To be a bit safer you could make it sound like you are just asking a question ("(describe in detail what happened), hey what was this about?", that way you get both documentation and can stay on polite footing with HR. I'd reccommend dropping by the office after the email too (if that is not too weird for a teacher in your district/area) just to chat up.
Do this now, get this on paper, leave the kids to twiddle their thumbs if you must.
Ok, maybe not leave the kids (as per comment) but I'd suggest getting at least a short "hey I have a question I'm very worried about, I'll email once I have time, mind if I drop by in the afternoon?" out of the way. Sociopaths have a tendency to proactively discredit their victims so you need to be ahead of that.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
BorghBorgh
3,7082819
3,7082819
47
+1 - Not so sure about leaving the kids but hey :)
– Twyxz
2 days ago
8
I'd leave the kids, to some one else... I'm sure you can find someone to watch them for 30 mins while you get this sorted.
– UKMonkey
2 days ago
15
This is a good answer, but in addition you really have to get something in writing from HR that confirms the communication. HR sometimes has the tendency to give you a sympathetic ear and then immediately swipe it all under the rug
– Hilmar
2 days ago
10
Perhaps the teacher's union would be a good ally as well.
– CramerTV
2 days ago
10
Add to this; you should make sure that HR understands that no document which is not signed with at least one witness present should be considered valid. Boss can just photocopy the document now.
– C Bauer
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
47
+1 - Not so sure about leaving the kids but hey :)
– Twyxz
2 days ago
8
I'd leave the kids, to some one else... I'm sure you can find someone to watch them for 30 mins while you get this sorted.
– UKMonkey
2 days ago
15
This is a good answer, but in addition you really have to get something in writing from HR that confirms the communication. HR sometimes has the tendency to give you a sympathetic ear and then immediately swipe it all under the rug
– Hilmar
2 days ago
10
Perhaps the teacher's union would be a good ally as well.
– CramerTV
2 days ago
10
Add to this; you should make sure that HR understands that no document which is not signed with at least one witness present should be considered valid. Boss can just photocopy the document now.
– C Bauer
2 days ago
47
47
+1 - Not so sure about leaving the kids but hey :)
– Twyxz
2 days ago
+1 - Not so sure about leaving the kids but hey :)
– Twyxz
2 days ago
8
8
I'd leave the kids, to some one else... I'm sure you can find someone to watch them for 30 mins while you get this sorted.
– UKMonkey
2 days ago
I'd leave the kids, to some one else... I'm sure you can find someone to watch them for 30 mins while you get this sorted.
– UKMonkey
2 days ago
15
15
This is a good answer, but in addition you really have to get something in writing from HR that confirms the communication. HR sometimes has the tendency to give you a sympathetic ear and then immediately swipe it all under the rug
– Hilmar
2 days ago
This is a good answer, but in addition you really have to get something in writing from HR that confirms the communication. HR sometimes has the tendency to give you a sympathetic ear and then immediately swipe it all under the rug
– Hilmar
2 days ago
10
10
Perhaps the teacher's union would be a good ally as well.
– CramerTV
2 days ago
Perhaps the teacher's union would be a good ally as well.
– CramerTV
2 days ago
10
10
Add to this; you should make sure that HR understands that no document which is not signed with at least one witness present should be considered valid. Boss can just photocopy the document now.
– C Bauer
2 days ago
Add to this; you should make sure that HR understands that no document which is not signed with at least one witness present should be considered valid. Boss can just photocopy the document now.
– C Bauer
2 days ago
|
show 2 more comments
Speak to HR immediately, you signed a blank piece of paper - make sure it stays blank
Normally advice around speaking to HR is "HR are not your friend". However, this is in the context of bringing up general workplace greivances - as HR's remit is to protect the company, not the employees.
In this case, you have a manager who plans to break the law - by forging a document with your signature. This would put your kindergarten in a serious legal problem, especially if that forged document was ever used to terminate your employment. This is exactly the kind of situation HR do not want to happen.
You need to explain to them exactly what has happened (in writing via email, and then in person), and that there is now a blank sheet of paper with your signature, you believe will be used to fraudulently create a signed warning letter.
Importantly, I'd recommend you only focus on the potential misuse of your signature on the blank letter. Anything else, such as personal issues with this manager - will not necessarily be in their interest to help you with (and the usual "HR doesn't love you" advice applies).
For your personal sake; it's worth adding that while it was an extremely stupid move to sign that paper - it is understandable, and abusive managers have managed to push each of us to lower our personal standards at one time or another (so don't worry about how it happened, just get it sorted). Legally, that paper has no value, and you need to remember that you haven't legally given somebody the right to write whatever they want - you have unfortunately just given them the opportunity to break the law.
48
To OP: read this last paragraph again. And once more. This is abusive behaviour, and it is not your fault. We all wish you can do better next time, but it's completely understandable that you fell into this. Now go fix it :)
– mgarciaisaia
2 days ago
add a comment |
Speak to HR immediately, you signed a blank piece of paper - make sure it stays blank
Normally advice around speaking to HR is "HR are not your friend". However, this is in the context of bringing up general workplace greivances - as HR's remit is to protect the company, not the employees.
In this case, you have a manager who plans to break the law - by forging a document with your signature. This would put your kindergarten in a serious legal problem, especially if that forged document was ever used to terminate your employment. This is exactly the kind of situation HR do not want to happen.
You need to explain to them exactly what has happened (in writing via email, and then in person), and that there is now a blank sheet of paper with your signature, you believe will be used to fraudulently create a signed warning letter.
Importantly, I'd recommend you only focus on the potential misuse of your signature on the blank letter. Anything else, such as personal issues with this manager - will not necessarily be in their interest to help you with (and the usual "HR doesn't love you" advice applies).
For your personal sake; it's worth adding that while it was an extremely stupid move to sign that paper - it is understandable, and abusive managers have managed to push each of us to lower our personal standards at one time or another (so don't worry about how it happened, just get it sorted). Legally, that paper has no value, and you need to remember that you haven't legally given somebody the right to write whatever they want - you have unfortunately just given them the opportunity to break the law.
48
To OP: read this last paragraph again. And once more. This is abusive behaviour, and it is not your fault. We all wish you can do better next time, but it's completely understandable that you fell into this. Now go fix it :)
– mgarciaisaia
2 days ago
add a comment |
Speak to HR immediately, you signed a blank piece of paper - make sure it stays blank
Normally advice around speaking to HR is "HR are not your friend". However, this is in the context of bringing up general workplace greivances - as HR's remit is to protect the company, not the employees.
In this case, you have a manager who plans to break the law - by forging a document with your signature. This would put your kindergarten in a serious legal problem, especially if that forged document was ever used to terminate your employment. This is exactly the kind of situation HR do not want to happen.
You need to explain to them exactly what has happened (in writing via email, and then in person), and that there is now a blank sheet of paper with your signature, you believe will be used to fraudulently create a signed warning letter.
Importantly, I'd recommend you only focus on the potential misuse of your signature on the blank letter. Anything else, such as personal issues with this manager - will not necessarily be in their interest to help you with (and the usual "HR doesn't love you" advice applies).
For your personal sake; it's worth adding that while it was an extremely stupid move to sign that paper - it is understandable, and abusive managers have managed to push each of us to lower our personal standards at one time or another (so don't worry about how it happened, just get it sorted). Legally, that paper has no value, and you need to remember that you haven't legally given somebody the right to write whatever they want - you have unfortunately just given them the opportunity to break the law.
Speak to HR immediately, you signed a blank piece of paper - make sure it stays blank
Normally advice around speaking to HR is "HR are not your friend". However, this is in the context of bringing up general workplace greivances - as HR's remit is to protect the company, not the employees.
In this case, you have a manager who plans to break the law - by forging a document with your signature. This would put your kindergarten in a serious legal problem, especially if that forged document was ever used to terminate your employment. This is exactly the kind of situation HR do not want to happen.
You need to explain to them exactly what has happened (in writing via email, and then in person), and that there is now a blank sheet of paper with your signature, you believe will be used to fraudulently create a signed warning letter.
Importantly, I'd recommend you only focus on the potential misuse of your signature on the blank letter. Anything else, such as personal issues with this manager - will not necessarily be in their interest to help you with (and the usual "HR doesn't love you" advice applies).
For your personal sake; it's worth adding that while it was an extremely stupid move to sign that paper - it is understandable, and abusive managers have managed to push each of us to lower our personal standards at one time or another (so don't worry about how it happened, just get it sorted). Legally, that paper has no value, and you need to remember that you haven't legally given somebody the right to write whatever they want - you have unfortunately just given them the opportunity to break the law.
answered 2 days ago
BilkokuyaBilkokuya
2,6143616
2,6143616
48
To OP: read this last paragraph again. And once more. This is abusive behaviour, and it is not your fault. We all wish you can do better next time, but it's completely understandable that you fell into this. Now go fix it :)
– mgarciaisaia
2 days ago
add a comment |
48
To OP: read this last paragraph again. And once more. This is abusive behaviour, and it is not your fault. We all wish you can do better next time, but it's completely understandable that you fell into this. Now go fix it :)
– mgarciaisaia
2 days ago
48
48
To OP: read this last paragraph again. And once more. This is abusive behaviour, and it is not your fault. We all wish you can do better next time, but it's completely understandable that you fell into this. Now go fix it :)
– mgarciaisaia
2 days ago
To OP: read this last paragraph again. And once more. This is abusive behaviour, and it is not your fault. We all wish you can do better next time, but it's completely understandable that you fell into this. Now go fix it :)
– mgarciaisaia
2 days ago
add a comment |
Amplifying what the other answers already said: Talking to HR is NOT enough, you MUST file a written report.
Write exactly down what happened with as much detail (time, location, names, quotes) as you can recall. Stick to the facts, don't put any emotion or interpretation into it. Take this report to HR make a copy for yourself. Make HR sign your copy and confirm in writing that they have received the report. Insist that they attach this report to your personell file.
You may want to have this looked over by a lawyer, before you file it.
Make sure you are friendly and co-operative with HR, but also be assertive when they try to push you off or ignore you. I don't think they can legally refuse to accept the report and confirm it's reception (again, a lawyer would help here).
Unfortunately, your blank signature could be a ticking time bomb. HR may try to sweep it under the rug and then it pops up 1 year later as a signed confession to something nasty. At that time, there may be entirely different people in HR. This needs to be documented clearly and you need written proof of it, so you have something to defend yourself with if you need it.
Ideally you get the paper back, but this may not happen. It's possible that your manager will simply deny that this happened. Or she may say "I already threw it away" or "I can't find it at the moment". HR won't be able to do much about this. Hence, you need thorough protection in writing.
1
I don't think you can "make" HR sign anything, but typing, "I acknowledge receipt of this document" with a space for s signature could make it more palatable.
– Bob Brown
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Amplifying what the other answers already said: Talking to HR is NOT enough, you MUST file a written report.
Write exactly down what happened with as much detail (time, location, names, quotes) as you can recall. Stick to the facts, don't put any emotion or interpretation into it. Take this report to HR make a copy for yourself. Make HR sign your copy and confirm in writing that they have received the report. Insist that they attach this report to your personell file.
You may want to have this looked over by a lawyer, before you file it.
Make sure you are friendly and co-operative with HR, but also be assertive when they try to push you off or ignore you. I don't think they can legally refuse to accept the report and confirm it's reception (again, a lawyer would help here).
Unfortunately, your blank signature could be a ticking time bomb. HR may try to sweep it under the rug and then it pops up 1 year later as a signed confession to something nasty. At that time, there may be entirely different people in HR. This needs to be documented clearly and you need written proof of it, so you have something to defend yourself with if you need it.
Ideally you get the paper back, but this may not happen. It's possible that your manager will simply deny that this happened. Or she may say "I already threw it away" or "I can't find it at the moment". HR won't be able to do much about this. Hence, you need thorough protection in writing.
1
I don't think you can "make" HR sign anything, but typing, "I acknowledge receipt of this document" with a space for s signature could make it more palatable.
– Bob Brown
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Amplifying what the other answers already said: Talking to HR is NOT enough, you MUST file a written report.
Write exactly down what happened with as much detail (time, location, names, quotes) as you can recall. Stick to the facts, don't put any emotion or interpretation into it. Take this report to HR make a copy for yourself. Make HR sign your copy and confirm in writing that they have received the report. Insist that they attach this report to your personell file.
You may want to have this looked over by a lawyer, before you file it.
Make sure you are friendly and co-operative with HR, but also be assertive when they try to push you off or ignore you. I don't think they can legally refuse to accept the report and confirm it's reception (again, a lawyer would help here).
Unfortunately, your blank signature could be a ticking time bomb. HR may try to sweep it under the rug and then it pops up 1 year later as a signed confession to something nasty. At that time, there may be entirely different people in HR. This needs to be documented clearly and you need written proof of it, so you have something to defend yourself with if you need it.
Ideally you get the paper back, but this may not happen. It's possible that your manager will simply deny that this happened. Or she may say "I already threw it away" or "I can't find it at the moment". HR won't be able to do much about this. Hence, you need thorough protection in writing.
Amplifying what the other answers already said: Talking to HR is NOT enough, you MUST file a written report.
Write exactly down what happened with as much detail (time, location, names, quotes) as you can recall. Stick to the facts, don't put any emotion or interpretation into it. Take this report to HR make a copy for yourself. Make HR sign your copy and confirm in writing that they have received the report. Insist that they attach this report to your personell file.
You may want to have this looked over by a lawyer, before you file it.
Make sure you are friendly and co-operative with HR, but also be assertive when they try to push you off or ignore you. I don't think they can legally refuse to accept the report and confirm it's reception (again, a lawyer would help here).
Unfortunately, your blank signature could be a ticking time bomb. HR may try to sweep it under the rug and then it pops up 1 year later as a signed confession to something nasty. At that time, there may be entirely different people in HR. This needs to be documented clearly and you need written proof of it, so you have something to defend yourself with if you need it.
Ideally you get the paper back, but this may not happen. It's possible that your manager will simply deny that this happened. Or she may say "I already threw it away" or "I can't find it at the moment". HR won't be able to do much about this. Hence, you need thorough protection in writing.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
HilmarHilmar
26.8k66481
26.8k66481
1
I don't think you can "make" HR sign anything, but typing, "I acknowledge receipt of this document" with a space for s signature could make it more palatable.
– Bob Brown
13 hours ago
add a comment |
1
I don't think you can "make" HR sign anything, but typing, "I acknowledge receipt of this document" with a space for s signature could make it more palatable.
– Bob Brown
13 hours ago
1
1
I don't think you can "make" HR sign anything, but typing, "I acknowledge receipt of this document" with a space for s signature could make it more palatable.
– Bob Brown
13 hours ago
I don't think you can "make" HR sign anything, but typing, "I acknowledge receipt of this document" with a space for s signature could make it more palatable.
– Bob Brown
13 hours ago
add a comment |
Okay, in matters like this.
HR IS YOUR NEW BEST FRIEND
This manager is dangerous, and likely committing some fraudulent action. I won't scold you about signing a blank anything as you already realize the implications.
Write down all the events leading up to this, detail the event itself, walk into HR with your account and ask to see any additions to your file since that date.
The danger is not just to you, but to anyone else that deals with this person. HR needs to be alerted to protect you and any other employees who engage with him/her. This is one of the reasons HR exists, and this is absolutely a matter for them.
RUN, don't walk to the HR department.
5
Don't you usually say "HR is not your friend"? It seems this is a big deal.
– wizzwizz4
yesterday
9
@wizzwizz4 HR is your "friend" not when you're unhappy about your work for some generic reason, but in cases where yours and the company's interests align. In this case, stopping a widely publicised lawsuit where the manager in a school commits fraud most certainly causes those interests to align.
– berry120
20 hours ago
1
@wizzwizz4 HR is still not being your friend. It just so happens that what's bad for the company/entity is also bad for HR, so HR, in this particular case, will work to correct that, which just so happens to also be what you need. The differences are subtle.
– code_dredd
17 hours ago
"The enemy of your enemy is your friend." In this case, HR is your friend. This manager is as much a threat to HR as it is to the OP.
– Nelson
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Okay, in matters like this.
HR IS YOUR NEW BEST FRIEND
This manager is dangerous, and likely committing some fraudulent action. I won't scold you about signing a blank anything as you already realize the implications.
Write down all the events leading up to this, detail the event itself, walk into HR with your account and ask to see any additions to your file since that date.
The danger is not just to you, but to anyone else that deals with this person. HR needs to be alerted to protect you and any other employees who engage with him/her. This is one of the reasons HR exists, and this is absolutely a matter for them.
RUN, don't walk to the HR department.
5
Don't you usually say "HR is not your friend"? It seems this is a big deal.
– wizzwizz4
yesterday
9
@wizzwizz4 HR is your "friend" not when you're unhappy about your work for some generic reason, but in cases where yours and the company's interests align. In this case, stopping a widely publicised lawsuit where the manager in a school commits fraud most certainly causes those interests to align.
– berry120
20 hours ago
1
@wizzwizz4 HR is still not being your friend. It just so happens that what's bad for the company/entity is also bad for HR, so HR, in this particular case, will work to correct that, which just so happens to also be what you need. The differences are subtle.
– code_dredd
17 hours ago
"The enemy of your enemy is your friend." In this case, HR is your friend. This manager is as much a threat to HR as it is to the OP.
– Nelson
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Okay, in matters like this.
HR IS YOUR NEW BEST FRIEND
This manager is dangerous, and likely committing some fraudulent action. I won't scold you about signing a blank anything as you already realize the implications.
Write down all the events leading up to this, detail the event itself, walk into HR with your account and ask to see any additions to your file since that date.
The danger is not just to you, but to anyone else that deals with this person. HR needs to be alerted to protect you and any other employees who engage with him/her. This is one of the reasons HR exists, and this is absolutely a matter for them.
RUN, don't walk to the HR department.
Okay, in matters like this.
HR IS YOUR NEW BEST FRIEND
This manager is dangerous, and likely committing some fraudulent action. I won't scold you about signing a blank anything as you already realize the implications.
Write down all the events leading up to this, detail the event itself, walk into HR with your account and ask to see any additions to your file since that date.
The danger is not just to you, but to anyone else that deals with this person. HR needs to be alerted to protect you and any other employees who engage with him/her. This is one of the reasons HR exists, and this is absolutely a matter for them.
RUN, don't walk to the HR department.
answered 2 days ago
Richard URichard U
89.3k64230351
89.3k64230351
5
Don't you usually say "HR is not your friend"? It seems this is a big deal.
– wizzwizz4
yesterday
9
@wizzwizz4 HR is your "friend" not when you're unhappy about your work for some generic reason, but in cases where yours and the company's interests align. In this case, stopping a widely publicised lawsuit where the manager in a school commits fraud most certainly causes those interests to align.
– berry120
20 hours ago
1
@wizzwizz4 HR is still not being your friend. It just so happens that what's bad for the company/entity is also bad for HR, so HR, in this particular case, will work to correct that, which just so happens to also be what you need. The differences are subtle.
– code_dredd
17 hours ago
"The enemy of your enemy is your friend." In this case, HR is your friend. This manager is as much a threat to HR as it is to the OP.
– Nelson
1 hour ago
add a comment |
5
Don't you usually say "HR is not your friend"? It seems this is a big deal.
– wizzwizz4
yesterday
9
@wizzwizz4 HR is your "friend" not when you're unhappy about your work for some generic reason, but in cases where yours and the company's interests align. In this case, stopping a widely publicised lawsuit where the manager in a school commits fraud most certainly causes those interests to align.
– berry120
20 hours ago
1
@wizzwizz4 HR is still not being your friend. It just so happens that what's bad for the company/entity is also bad for HR, so HR, in this particular case, will work to correct that, which just so happens to also be what you need. The differences are subtle.
– code_dredd
17 hours ago
"The enemy of your enemy is your friend." In this case, HR is your friend. This manager is as much a threat to HR as it is to the OP.
– Nelson
1 hour ago
5
5
Don't you usually say "HR is not your friend"? It seems this is a big deal.
– wizzwizz4
yesterday
Don't you usually say "HR is not your friend"? It seems this is a big deal.
– wizzwizz4
yesterday
9
9
@wizzwizz4 HR is your "friend" not when you're unhappy about your work for some generic reason, but in cases where yours and the company's interests align. In this case, stopping a widely publicised lawsuit where the manager in a school commits fraud most certainly causes those interests to align.
– berry120
20 hours ago
@wizzwizz4 HR is your "friend" not when you're unhappy about your work for some generic reason, but in cases where yours and the company's interests align. In this case, stopping a widely publicised lawsuit where the manager in a school commits fraud most certainly causes those interests to align.
– berry120
20 hours ago
1
1
@wizzwizz4 HR is still not being your friend. It just so happens that what's bad for the company/entity is also bad for HR, so HR, in this particular case, will work to correct that, which just so happens to also be what you need. The differences are subtle.
– code_dredd
17 hours ago
@wizzwizz4 HR is still not being your friend. It just so happens that what's bad for the company/entity is also bad for HR, so HR, in this particular case, will work to correct that, which just so happens to also be what you need. The differences are subtle.
– code_dredd
17 hours ago
"The enemy of your enemy is your friend." In this case, HR is your friend. This manager is as much a threat to HR as it is to the OP.
– Nelson
1 hour ago
"The enemy of your enemy is your friend." In this case, HR is your friend. This manager is as much a threat to HR as it is to the OP.
– Nelson
1 hour ago
add a comment |
There are some notes about going to HR about "potential misconduct" which is part of why I'm taking the time to write this as a separate answer.
You can not control what your manager does. You can not anticipate what your manager will do. Speculating as to what your manager conceivably might do is a good way to give them an actionable grievance that you've yourself recorded with HR and turn this into a back and forth over something other than what actually happened, which is what you don't want in a situation like this.
You do need to document this with HR
But to be clear, you need to document only what you did and why you did it:
Your manager requested you sign a blank sheet of paper. You signed a blank sheet of paper and gave it to your manager, per their request. [You can repeat what they told you about why they were making that request, but I would avoid getting embroiled in that: ideally keep this as cleanly focused on the basic hard facts as possible, so there's not room for argument later on about who said what.] You didn't think anything of it at the time, and you try to be a good employee who does what they are told [or whatever you'd like to say in that regard of following orders], but for clarification's sake you would now like documented that what you signed was a blank sheet of paper, and that is the only thing you are agreeing to having signed, because THAT is what you signed.
If a date or something else was requested on it, note that. If it is literally just your signature, note that.
Don't speculate on what your manager might or might not do with the blank paper you signed. Don't accuse your manager of intending to commit fraud. (if your manager DOES commit fraud, then address it as such: but the key here is do NOT accuse them of something that they haven't actually done yet)
Do create a paper trail. Email it, BCC a personal account, and request to schedule a discussion or at least a "quick chat" in person with someone regarding making sure it gets properly documented. When you go, make sure you print off a paper copy to take with you so you have a reference of what you sent that you can refer back to if things get stressful, and as a reminder to keep it simply focused on the basic facts of what you did and that it was at the manager's request.
Don't make a big deal out of it: just be calm yet firm about wanting it documented. If HR (ideally) wants to make a big deal out of it, that's on HR, let them be the ones to press the concern and don't interject it yourself. Keep your own focus on what you did and why, and your expressed concerns related to that specifically, not on what your manager might or might not do. Don't be the one who turns it into a big thing, because other than being an odd and inappropriate request, nothing has happened yet. Don't accuse your manager of anything at this point. If necessary or pressed, you can state that your concern is something very mundane and not specifically related to your manager, like "what if it gets lost and someone else finds it?" but my advice would be to simply keep things straightforward as a matter of just wanting it documented in your record since it was at your manager's request, but that you have no specific concerns and just want an official record of having done so per request.
If you do this and it turns into something where HR has you sit down across from your manager regarding this, don't try to engage. Don't be the one who asks the manager why they did that. Don't speculate. Just stick to the line that you just wanted what you did per request documented, and that all you did was sign a blank sheet of paper, which is all you agree to having signed, which hopefully everyone can agree is an odd thing to have signed (again, do not speculate about what someone else MIGHT do with such a piece of signed paper, focus only on what you did and that it was per a manager's request/order). Again, if pressed on why you are wanting it documented, stick to your immediate concern over it being strange to sign a blank piece of paper, not what might or might not be done with it.
6
The boss specifically said "just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later" (emphasis mine). That right there is admitting that she intends to commit fraud by forgery. The OP can not prove to anyone that the boss said that, however, OP can also not prove that the boss made them sign the blank paper. (Only someone with the right to search the office of the boss can prove that.) Therefore, when recounting the story neutrally, I would include the quote from the boss in which she admitted her intentions.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
There are some notes about going to HR about "potential misconduct" which is part of why I'm taking the time to write this as a separate answer.
You can not control what your manager does. You can not anticipate what your manager will do. Speculating as to what your manager conceivably might do is a good way to give them an actionable grievance that you've yourself recorded with HR and turn this into a back and forth over something other than what actually happened, which is what you don't want in a situation like this.
You do need to document this with HR
But to be clear, you need to document only what you did and why you did it:
Your manager requested you sign a blank sheet of paper. You signed a blank sheet of paper and gave it to your manager, per their request. [You can repeat what they told you about why they were making that request, but I would avoid getting embroiled in that: ideally keep this as cleanly focused on the basic hard facts as possible, so there's not room for argument later on about who said what.] You didn't think anything of it at the time, and you try to be a good employee who does what they are told [or whatever you'd like to say in that regard of following orders], but for clarification's sake you would now like documented that what you signed was a blank sheet of paper, and that is the only thing you are agreeing to having signed, because THAT is what you signed.
If a date or something else was requested on it, note that. If it is literally just your signature, note that.
Don't speculate on what your manager might or might not do with the blank paper you signed. Don't accuse your manager of intending to commit fraud. (if your manager DOES commit fraud, then address it as such: but the key here is do NOT accuse them of something that they haven't actually done yet)
Do create a paper trail. Email it, BCC a personal account, and request to schedule a discussion or at least a "quick chat" in person with someone regarding making sure it gets properly documented. When you go, make sure you print off a paper copy to take with you so you have a reference of what you sent that you can refer back to if things get stressful, and as a reminder to keep it simply focused on the basic facts of what you did and that it was at the manager's request.
Don't make a big deal out of it: just be calm yet firm about wanting it documented. If HR (ideally) wants to make a big deal out of it, that's on HR, let them be the ones to press the concern and don't interject it yourself. Keep your own focus on what you did and why, and your expressed concerns related to that specifically, not on what your manager might or might not do. Don't be the one who turns it into a big thing, because other than being an odd and inappropriate request, nothing has happened yet. Don't accuse your manager of anything at this point. If necessary or pressed, you can state that your concern is something very mundane and not specifically related to your manager, like "what if it gets lost and someone else finds it?" but my advice would be to simply keep things straightforward as a matter of just wanting it documented in your record since it was at your manager's request, but that you have no specific concerns and just want an official record of having done so per request.
If you do this and it turns into something where HR has you sit down across from your manager regarding this, don't try to engage. Don't be the one who asks the manager why they did that. Don't speculate. Just stick to the line that you just wanted what you did per request documented, and that all you did was sign a blank sheet of paper, which is all you agree to having signed, which hopefully everyone can agree is an odd thing to have signed (again, do not speculate about what someone else MIGHT do with such a piece of signed paper, focus only on what you did and that it was per a manager's request/order). Again, if pressed on why you are wanting it documented, stick to your immediate concern over it being strange to sign a blank piece of paper, not what might or might not be done with it.
6
The boss specifically said "just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later" (emphasis mine). That right there is admitting that she intends to commit fraud by forgery. The OP can not prove to anyone that the boss said that, however, OP can also not prove that the boss made them sign the blank paper. (Only someone with the right to search the office of the boss can prove that.) Therefore, when recounting the story neutrally, I would include the quote from the boss in which she admitted her intentions.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
There are some notes about going to HR about "potential misconduct" which is part of why I'm taking the time to write this as a separate answer.
You can not control what your manager does. You can not anticipate what your manager will do. Speculating as to what your manager conceivably might do is a good way to give them an actionable grievance that you've yourself recorded with HR and turn this into a back and forth over something other than what actually happened, which is what you don't want in a situation like this.
You do need to document this with HR
But to be clear, you need to document only what you did and why you did it:
Your manager requested you sign a blank sheet of paper. You signed a blank sheet of paper and gave it to your manager, per their request. [You can repeat what they told you about why they were making that request, but I would avoid getting embroiled in that: ideally keep this as cleanly focused on the basic hard facts as possible, so there's not room for argument later on about who said what.] You didn't think anything of it at the time, and you try to be a good employee who does what they are told [or whatever you'd like to say in that regard of following orders], but for clarification's sake you would now like documented that what you signed was a blank sheet of paper, and that is the only thing you are agreeing to having signed, because THAT is what you signed.
If a date or something else was requested on it, note that. If it is literally just your signature, note that.
Don't speculate on what your manager might or might not do with the blank paper you signed. Don't accuse your manager of intending to commit fraud. (if your manager DOES commit fraud, then address it as such: but the key here is do NOT accuse them of something that they haven't actually done yet)
Do create a paper trail. Email it, BCC a personal account, and request to schedule a discussion or at least a "quick chat" in person with someone regarding making sure it gets properly documented. When you go, make sure you print off a paper copy to take with you so you have a reference of what you sent that you can refer back to if things get stressful, and as a reminder to keep it simply focused on the basic facts of what you did and that it was at the manager's request.
Don't make a big deal out of it: just be calm yet firm about wanting it documented. If HR (ideally) wants to make a big deal out of it, that's on HR, let them be the ones to press the concern and don't interject it yourself. Keep your own focus on what you did and why, and your expressed concerns related to that specifically, not on what your manager might or might not do. Don't be the one who turns it into a big thing, because other than being an odd and inappropriate request, nothing has happened yet. Don't accuse your manager of anything at this point. If necessary or pressed, you can state that your concern is something very mundane and not specifically related to your manager, like "what if it gets lost and someone else finds it?" but my advice would be to simply keep things straightforward as a matter of just wanting it documented in your record since it was at your manager's request, but that you have no specific concerns and just want an official record of having done so per request.
If you do this and it turns into something where HR has you sit down across from your manager regarding this, don't try to engage. Don't be the one who asks the manager why they did that. Don't speculate. Just stick to the line that you just wanted what you did per request documented, and that all you did was sign a blank sheet of paper, which is all you agree to having signed, which hopefully everyone can agree is an odd thing to have signed (again, do not speculate about what someone else MIGHT do with such a piece of signed paper, focus only on what you did and that it was per a manager's request/order). Again, if pressed on why you are wanting it documented, stick to your immediate concern over it being strange to sign a blank piece of paper, not what might or might not be done with it.
There are some notes about going to HR about "potential misconduct" which is part of why I'm taking the time to write this as a separate answer.
You can not control what your manager does. You can not anticipate what your manager will do. Speculating as to what your manager conceivably might do is a good way to give them an actionable grievance that you've yourself recorded with HR and turn this into a back and forth over something other than what actually happened, which is what you don't want in a situation like this.
You do need to document this with HR
But to be clear, you need to document only what you did and why you did it:
Your manager requested you sign a blank sheet of paper. You signed a blank sheet of paper and gave it to your manager, per their request. [You can repeat what they told you about why they were making that request, but I would avoid getting embroiled in that: ideally keep this as cleanly focused on the basic hard facts as possible, so there's not room for argument later on about who said what.] You didn't think anything of it at the time, and you try to be a good employee who does what they are told [or whatever you'd like to say in that regard of following orders], but for clarification's sake you would now like documented that what you signed was a blank sheet of paper, and that is the only thing you are agreeing to having signed, because THAT is what you signed.
If a date or something else was requested on it, note that. If it is literally just your signature, note that.
Don't speculate on what your manager might or might not do with the blank paper you signed. Don't accuse your manager of intending to commit fraud. (if your manager DOES commit fraud, then address it as such: but the key here is do NOT accuse them of something that they haven't actually done yet)
Do create a paper trail. Email it, BCC a personal account, and request to schedule a discussion or at least a "quick chat" in person with someone regarding making sure it gets properly documented. When you go, make sure you print off a paper copy to take with you so you have a reference of what you sent that you can refer back to if things get stressful, and as a reminder to keep it simply focused on the basic facts of what you did and that it was at the manager's request.
Don't make a big deal out of it: just be calm yet firm about wanting it documented. If HR (ideally) wants to make a big deal out of it, that's on HR, let them be the ones to press the concern and don't interject it yourself. Keep your own focus on what you did and why, and your expressed concerns related to that specifically, not on what your manager might or might not do. Don't be the one who turns it into a big thing, because other than being an odd and inappropriate request, nothing has happened yet. Don't accuse your manager of anything at this point. If necessary or pressed, you can state that your concern is something very mundane and not specifically related to your manager, like "what if it gets lost and someone else finds it?" but my advice would be to simply keep things straightforward as a matter of just wanting it documented in your record since it was at your manager's request, but that you have no specific concerns and just want an official record of having done so per request.
If you do this and it turns into something where HR has you sit down across from your manager regarding this, don't try to engage. Don't be the one who asks the manager why they did that. Don't speculate. Just stick to the line that you just wanted what you did per request documented, and that all you did was sign a blank sheet of paper, which is all you agree to having signed, which hopefully everyone can agree is an odd thing to have signed (again, do not speculate about what someone else MIGHT do with such a piece of signed paper, focus only on what you did and that it was per a manager's request/order). Again, if pressed on why you are wanting it documented, stick to your immediate concern over it being strange to sign a blank piece of paper, not what might or might not be done with it.
answered 2 days ago
taswyntaswyn
43726
43726
6
The boss specifically said "just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later" (emphasis mine). That right there is admitting that she intends to commit fraud by forgery. The OP can not prove to anyone that the boss said that, however, OP can also not prove that the boss made them sign the blank paper. (Only someone with the right to search the office of the boss can prove that.) Therefore, when recounting the story neutrally, I would include the quote from the boss in which she admitted her intentions.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
6
The boss specifically said "just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later" (emphasis mine). That right there is admitting that she intends to commit fraud by forgery. The OP can not prove to anyone that the boss said that, however, OP can also not prove that the boss made them sign the blank paper. (Only someone with the right to search the office of the boss can prove that.) Therefore, when recounting the story neutrally, I would include the quote from the boss in which she admitted her intentions.
– Revetahw
yesterday
6
6
The boss specifically said "just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later" (emphasis mine). That right there is admitting that she intends to commit fraud by forgery. The OP can not prove to anyone that the boss said that, however, OP can also not prove that the boss made them sign the blank paper. (Only someone with the right to search the office of the boss can prove that.) Therefore, when recounting the story neutrally, I would include the quote from the boss in which she admitted her intentions.
– Revetahw
yesterday
The boss specifically said "just sign this paper and I will write the warning paragraph later" (emphasis mine). That right there is admitting that she intends to commit fraud by forgery. The OP can not prove to anyone that the boss said that, however, OP can also not prove that the boss made them sign the blank paper. (Only someone with the right to search the office of the boss can prove that.) Therefore, when recounting the story neutrally, I would include the quote from the boss in which she admitted her intentions.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
The prevailing advice seems to be to talk to HR about it and document it there.
Note that a lot of these same people (on different questions) would probably tell you to not go to HR.
If the trip to HR does not go to your benefit, I think that you should write out what happened sign it, and get it notarized. That is admissible in court if the words above your signature turn out to be something other than what you were told they would be - and maybe even if they were what you were told that they would be.
There may also be a police report that you can file - as the intent could be fraud and you felt that you were under duress and had to sign the report. I presume you're under duress or at least stress because you mention how bad an idea it was to do that.
14
You don't go to HR if you were having drinks after hours with a coworker and they made some racist comments (didn't happen on company time, they don't care); you don't go to HR because that guy in accounting has bad B.O. (it's not illegal to stink - sadly); You absolutely do go to HR when your boss makes you sign a blank piece of paper and promises to write out the contents later. HR exists to protect the company, and this sort of thing could seriously damage the company if it wound up in court. That's the difference here.
– Steve-O
2 days ago
3
@Steve-O Yes. I was trying to convey: "many people who would normally tell you to not go to HR are telling you to go to HR. In the event that the trip to HR doesn't go in a useful direction... here's another idea."
– J. Chris Compton
2 days ago
5
@Steve-O I think the point is that if even those of us who are known for saying "HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND" are saying, "Go to HR", the OP should take it seriously.
– Richard U
2 days ago
add a comment |
The prevailing advice seems to be to talk to HR about it and document it there.
Note that a lot of these same people (on different questions) would probably tell you to not go to HR.
If the trip to HR does not go to your benefit, I think that you should write out what happened sign it, and get it notarized. That is admissible in court if the words above your signature turn out to be something other than what you were told they would be - and maybe even if they were what you were told that they would be.
There may also be a police report that you can file - as the intent could be fraud and you felt that you were under duress and had to sign the report. I presume you're under duress or at least stress because you mention how bad an idea it was to do that.
14
You don't go to HR if you were having drinks after hours with a coworker and they made some racist comments (didn't happen on company time, they don't care); you don't go to HR because that guy in accounting has bad B.O. (it's not illegal to stink - sadly); You absolutely do go to HR when your boss makes you sign a blank piece of paper and promises to write out the contents later. HR exists to protect the company, and this sort of thing could seriously damage the company if it wound up in court. That's the difference here.
– Steve-O
2 days ago
3
@Steve-O Yes. I was trying to convey: "many people who would normally tell you to not go to HR are telling you to go to HR. In the event that the trip to HR doesn't go in a useful direction... here's another idea."
– J. Chris Compton
2 days ago
5
@Steve-O I think the point is that if even those of us who are known for saying "HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND" are saying, "Go to HR", the OP should take it seriously.
– Richard U
2 days ago
add a comment |
The prevailing advice seems to be to talk to HR about it and document it there.
Note that a lot of these same people (on different questions) would probably tell you to not go to HR.
If the trip to HR does not go to your benefit, I think that you should write out what happened sign it, and get it notarized. That is admissible in court if the words above your signature turn out to be something other than what you were told they would be - and maybe even if they were what you were told that they would be.
There may also be a police report that you can file - as the intent could be fraud and you felt that you were under duress and had to sign the report. I presume you're under duress or at least stress because you mention how bad an idea it was to do that.
The prevailing advice seems to be to talk to HR about it and document it there.
Note that a lot of these same people (on different questions) would probably tell you to not go to HR.
If the trip to HR does not go to your benefit, I think that you should write out what happened sign it, and get it notarized. That is admissible in court if the words above your signature turn out to be something other than what you were told they would be - and maybe even if they were what you were told that they would be.
There may also be a police report that you can file - as the intent could be fraud and you felt that you were under duress and had to sign the report. I presume you're under duress or at least stress because you mention how bad an idea it was to do that.
answered 2 days ago
J. Chris ComptonJ. Chris Compton
2,873322
2,873322
14
You don't go to HR if you were having drinks after hours with a coworker and they made some racist comments (didn't happen on company time, they don't care); you don't go to HR because that guy in accounting has bad B.O. (it's not illegal to stink - sadly); You absolutely do go to HR when your boss makes you sign a blank piece of paper and promises to write out the contents later. HR exists to protect the company, and this sort of thing could seriously damage the company if it wound up in court. That's the difference here.
– Steve-O
2 days ago
3
@Steve-O Yes. I was trying to convey: "many people who would normally tell you to not go to HR are telling you to go to HR. In the event that the trip to HR doesn't go in a useful direction... here's another idea."
– J. Chris Compton
2 days ago
5
@Steve-O I think the point is that if even those of us who are known for saying "HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND" are saying, "Go to HR", the OP should take it seriously.
– Richard U
2 days ago
add a comment |
14
You don't go to HR if you were having drinks after hours with a coworker and they made some racist comments (didn't happen on company time, they don't care); you don't go to HR because that guy in accounting has bad B.O. (it's not illegal to stink - sadly); You absolutely do go to HR when your boss makes you sign a blank piece of paper and promises to write out the contents later. HR exists to protect the company, and this sort of thing could seriously damage the company if it wound up in court. That's the difference here.
– Steve-O
2 days ago
3
@Steve-O Yes. I was trying to convey: "many people who would normally tell you to not go to HR are telling you to go to HR. In the event that the trip to HR doesn't go in a useful direction... here's another idea."
– J. Chris Compton
2 days ago
5
@Steve-O I think the point is that if even those of us who are known for saying "HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND" are saying, "Go to HR", the OP should take it seriously.
– Richard U
2 days ago
14
14
You don't go to HR if you were having drinks after hours with a coworker and they made some racist comments (didn't happen on company time, they don't care); you don't go to HR because that guy in accounting has bad B.O. (it's not illegal to stink - sadly); You absolutely do go to HR when your boss makes you sign a blank piece of paper and promises to write out the contents later. HR exists to protect the company, and this sort of thing could seriously damage the company if it wound up in court. That's the difference here.
– Steve-O
2 days ago
You don't go to HR if you were having drinks after hours with a coworker and they made some racist comments (didn't happen on company time, they don't care); you don't go to HR because that guy in accounting has bad B.O. (it's not illegal to stink - sadly); You absolutely do go to HR when your boss makes you sign a blank piece of paper and promises to write out the contents later. HR exists to protect the company, and this sort of thing could seriously damage the company if it wound up in court. That's the difference here.
– Steve-O
2 days ago
3
3
@Steve-O Yes. I was trying to convey: "many people who would normally tell you to not go to HR are telling you to go to HR. In the event that the trip to HR doesn't go in a useful direction... here's another idea."
– J. Chris Compton
2 days ago
@Steve-O Yes. I was trying to convey: "many people who would normally tell you to not go to HR are telling you to go to HR. In the event that the trip to HR doesn't go in a useful direction... here's another idea."
– J. Chris Compton
2 days ago
5
5
@Steve-O I think the point is that if even those of us who are known for saying "HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND" are saying, "Go to HR", the OP should take it seriously.
– Richard U
2 days ago
@Steve-O I think the point is that if even those of us who are known for saying "HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND" are saying, "Go to HR", the OP should take it seriously.
– Richard U
2 days ago
add a comment |
Don't trust HR alone to document it. They are not your friend, and woukd be happy for this to go away, e.g. By you going away.
Comey that conversation
"To Comey" is a new verb that means to write down your recollection of events as soon as you can, because you feel there may later be disagreement over what happened. This should be done contemporaneously, or ASAP after the event. For instance, Comey sat in his car right after the meeting and wrote it down on a notepad. This proved very useful later.
I advise doing more. First, write down your recollection of the meeting. Be truthful and create a recording of the facts that would be difficult to challenge. Second, have it notarized, because you are not James Comey. That proves it was contemporaneous, and you didn't modify your recollection to suit the later situation, which humans tend to do.
This goes in your pocket to be used later, if pushing comes to shoving.
Third, I would write a courtesy letter capturing in short form your recall of events. Something like this
Thank you for speaking with me today about the Jan. 3 incident, and hearing my side of events. As I said, I feel this and this and this, and you pointed out this and this and this. I recall we found a middle ground of this and this and this.
We also agreed that you would write a modified warning letter to that general effect. For expediency, you asked me to sign a blank piece of paper on which that warning letter would be later placed, and I complied. I would like to have a copy of that letter when complete.
Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss the matter with me. Usual salutation, signature.
Nothing threatening in there. But it lays out the facts as they happened, and documents the existence of this blank signed letter, and puts him on notice that you intend to challenge any inappropriate use of it. Sneaky people hate facts being stated openly. Decent people don't care.
Then, go have that verbal conversation with HR.
add a comment |
Don't trust HR alone to document it. They are not your friend, and woukd be happy for this to go away, e.g. By you going away.
Comey that conversation
"To Comey" is a new verb that means to write down your recollection of events as soon as you can, because you feel there may later be disagreement over what happened. This should be done contemporaneously, or ASAP after the event. For instance, Comey sat in his car right after the meeting and wrote it down on a notepad. This proved very useful later.
I advise doing more. First, write down your recollection of the meeting. Be truthful and create a recording of the facts that would be difficult to challenge. Second, have it notarized, because you are not James Comey. That proves it was contemporaneous, and you didn't modify your recollection to suit the later situation, which humans tend to do.
This goes in your pocket to be used later, if pushing comes to shoving.
Third, I would write a courtesy letter capturing in short form your recall of events. Something like this
Thank you for speaking with me today about the Jan. 3 incident, and hearing my side of events. As I said, I feel this and this and this, and you pointed out this and this and this. I recall we found a middle ground of this and this and this.
We also agreed that you would write a modified warning letter to that general effect. For expediency, you asked me to sign a blank piece of paper on which that warning letter would be later placed, and I complied. I would like to have a copy of that letter when complete.
Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss the matter with me. Usual salutation, signature.
Nothing threatening in there. But it lays out the facts as they happened, and documents the existence of this blank signed letter, and puts him on notice that you intend to challenge any inappropriate use of it. Sneaky people hate facts being stated openly. Decent people don't care.
Then, go have that verbal conversation with HR.
add a comment |
Don't trust HR alone to document it. They are not your friend, and woukd be happy for this to go away, e.g. By you going away.
Comey that conversation
"To Comey" is a new verb that means to write down your recollection of events as soon as you can, because you feel there may later be disagreement over what happened. This should be done contemporaneously, or ASAP after the event. For instance, Comey sat in his car right after the meeting and wrote it down on a notepad. This proved very useful later.
I advise doing more. First, write down your recollection of the meeting. Be truthful and create a recording of the facts that would be difficult to challenge. Second, have it notarized, because you are not James Comey. That proves it was contemporaneous, and you didn't modify your recollection to suit the later situation, which humans tend to do.
This goes in your pocket to be used later, if pushing comes to shoving.
Third, I would write a courtesy letter capturing in short form your recall of events. Something like this
Thank you for speaking with me today about the Jan. 3 incident, and hearing my side of events. As I said, I feel this and this and this, and you pointed out this and this and this. I recall we found a middle ground of this and this and this.
We also agreed that you would write a modified warning letter to that general effect. For expediency, you asked me to sign a blank piece of paper on which that warning letter would be later placed, and I complied. I would like to have a copy of that letter when complete.
Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss the matter with me. Usual salutation, signature.
Nothing threatening in there. But it lays out the facts as they happened, and documents the existence of this blank signed letter, and puts him on notice that you intend to challenge any inappropriate use of it. Sneaky people hate facts being stated openly. Decent people don't care.
Then, go have that verbal conversation with HR.
Don't trust HR alone to document it. They are not your friend, and woukd be happy for this to go away, e.g. By you going away.
Comey that conversation
"To Comey" is a new verb that means to write down your recollection of events as soon as you can, because you feel there may later be disagreement over what happened. This should be done contemporaneously, or ASAP after the event. For instance, Comey sat in his car right after the meeting and wrote it down on a notepad. This proved very useful later.
I advise doing more. First, write down your recollection of the meeting. Be truthful and create a recording of the facts that would be difficult to challenge. Second, have it notarized, because you are not James Comey. That proves it was contemporaneous, and you didn't modify your recollection to suit the later situation, which humans tend to do.
This goes in your pocket to be used later, if pushing comes to shoving.
Third, I would write a courtesy letter capturing in short form your recall of events. Something like this
Thank you for speaking with me today about the Jan. 3 incident, and hearing my side of events. As I said, I feel this and this and this, and you pointed out this and this and this. I recall we found a middle ground of this and this and this.
We also agreed that you would write a modified warning letter to that general effect. For expediency, you asked me to sign a blank piece of paper on which that warning letter would be later placed, and I complied. I would like to have a copy of that letter when complete.
Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss the matter with me. Usual salutation, signature.
Nothing threatening in there. But it lays out the facts as they happened, and documents the existence of this blank signed letter, and puts him on notice that you intend to challenge any inappropriate use of it. Sneaky people hate facts being stated openly. Decent people don't care.
Then, go have that verbal conversation with HR.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 2 days ago
HarperHarper
3,1391514
3,1391514
add a comment |
add a comment |
This is a serious crime
"do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will
write the warning paragraph later".
Your boss has literally stated outright that she intends to forge a document. This is a serious crime in all jurisdictions and nations that I am aware of. Moreover, the implications could be anything from severe to devastating to you personally (and the company too).
I like the other answers, but I would most certainly report this to the police as well. Your boss has admitted to planning something criminal. In the best case scenario, the police gets a search warrant, goes to the office of the boss, and finds the blank piece of paper, backing up your story. (I realise this may be an unlikely outcome, but your story is the type which triggers the justice part in the conscience of people, and therefore it is not impossible.
However, even in the worst case scenario, the police will almost certainly have to write a report on what you tell them. Although I do recommend documenting this with HR as well, HR may or may not do their job, and the police is much more reliable to document this properly for you. If worst comes to worst (which, indeed, it very well may), and your job ends up on the line, having this documented by the police can be very useful. You may end up in court, and having this documented by the police may be a big help.
I realise that reporting your boss to the police is a rather aggressive approach, but this is also a quite extreme situation. Your boss has already admitted an intent to commit fraud against you, and the company. She has already taken the gloves off. You have very little to lose here. Your boss deserves to lose her job over this, not you.
Go to your/a union
Also, if you are not a member of a union, join one now, and ask them for assistance. They typically have legal teams which can help in such situations.
Consult a lawyer
If somehow a union can not provide a lawyer for you, consider consulting one on your own, if you can afford it.
Try to get the paper back, or to get evidence of what happened
This last part has only a mediocre chance of success, but you might as well try. There is a downvoted (possibly for typesetting, not content) answer which suggests talking to the boss about it, while secretly recording it, hoping that she somehow admits to what she has done, given that you are located in one of the few jurisdictions in which that is legal. If you are sure that you happen to find yourself in one of those jurisdictions, then I find that idea reasonable. If she does admit that and you get it recorded, that would be a rather valuable defense to you, and it would no longer be her words against yours. If you do happen to have such a conversation, you can, in the same conversation, ask for the paper back. This will put her on the spot, and it will be difficult for her to hold on to the paper without admitting that it exists. Also, there is the chance that she may give it back voluntarily. In that conversation, you may actually be polite. You can tell her that you thought about it, and you would like to see the warning before you sign it, and therefore want the blank paper back. If she refuses, you can step it up a notch, and inform her that what she is doing is illegal. After all that, I would say you have a pretty good chance of either getting the paper back, or getting a recording of her admitting what happened. In the worst case scenario that she just pretends she has no idea what you are talking about, and does not give you anything, then you have not really lost much, and you can proceed with HR, the police, a/your union, and a lawyer.
If recording without knowledge is not legal in your jurisdiction, I do not see why you should not have the conversation anyway, without recording. After all, what she is doing is pretty insane, and there may be a chance she has an ounce of sense in her and decides to give it back, fearing the possible consequences of committing fraud.
Act NOW, do not wait
Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Also, by acting quickly you can make something happen before she even writes anything on the sheet in the first place. The sheet of paper with nothing but your signature on it is the single most damning evidence here if found in the possession of your boss. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
3
+1 for reporting to the police.
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
add a comment |
This is a serious crime
"do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will
write the warning paragraph later".
Your boss has literally stated outright that she intends to forge a document. This is a serious crime in all jurisdictions and nations that I am aware of. Moreover, the implications could be anything from severe to devastating to you personally (and the company too).
I like the other answers, but I would most certainly report this to the police as well. Your boss has admitted to planning something criminal. In the best case scenario, the police gets a search warrant, goes to the office of the boss, and finds the blank piece of paper, backing up your story. (I realise this may be an unlikely outcome, but your story is the type which triggers the justice part in the conscience of people, and therefore it is not impossible.
However, even in the worst case scenario, the police will almost certainly have to write a report on what you tell them. Although I do recommend documenting this with HR as well, HR may or may not do their job, and the police is much more reliable to document this properly for you. If worst comes to worst (which, indeed, it very well may), and your job ends up on the line, having this documented by the police can be very useful. You may end up in court, and having this documented by the police may be a big help.
I realise that reporting your boss to the police is a rather aggressive approach, but this is also a quite extreme situation. Your boss has already admitted an intent to commit fraud against you, and the company. She has already taken the gloves off. You have very little to lose here. Your boss deserves to lose her job over this, not you.
Go to your/a union
Also, if you are not a member of a union, join one now, and ask them for assistance. They typically have legal teams which can help in such situations.
Consult a lawyer
If somehow a union can not provide a lawyer for you, consider consulting one on your own, if you can afford it.
Try to get the paper back, or to get evidence of what happened
This last part has only a mediocre chance of success, but you might as well try. There is a downvoted (possibly for typesetting, not content) answer which suggests talking to the boss about it, while secretly recording it, hoping that she somehow admits to what she has done, given that you are located in one of the few jurisdictions in which that is legal. If you are sure that you happen to find yourself in one of those jurisdictions, then I find that idea reasonable. If she does admit that and you get it recorded, that would be a rather valuable defense to you, and it would no longer be her words against yours. If you do happen to have such a conversation, you can, in the same conversation, ask for the paper back. This will put her on the spot, and it will be difficult for her to hold on to the paper without admitting that it exists. Also, there is the chance that she may give it back voluntarily. In that conversation, you may actually be polite. You can tell her that you thought about it, and you would like to see the warning before you sign it, and therefore want the blank paper back. If she refuses, you can step it up a notch, and inform her that what she is doing is illegal. After all that, I would say you have a pretty good chance of either getting the paper back, or getting a recording of her admitting what happened. In the worst case scenario that she just pretends she has no idea what you are talking about, and does not give you anything, then you have not really lost much, and you can proceed with HR, the police, a/your union, and a lawyer.
If recording without knowledge is not legal in your jurisdiction, I do not see why you should not have the conversation anyway, without recording. After all, what she is doing is pretty insane, and there may be a chance she has an ounce of sense in her and decides to give it back, fearing the possible consequences of committing fraud.
Act NOW, do not wait
Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Also, by acting quickly you can make something happen before she even writes anything on the sheet in the first place. The sheet of paper with nothing but your signature on it is the single most damning evidence here if found in the possession of your boss. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
3
+1 for reporting to the police.
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
add a comment |
This is a serious crime
"do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will
write the warning paragraph later".
Your boss has literally stated outright that she intends to forge a document. This is a serious crime in all jurisdictions and nations that I am aware of. Moreover, the implications could be anything from severe to devastating to you personally (and the company too).
I like the other answers, but I would most certainly report this to the police as well. Your boss has admitted to planning something criminal. In the best case scenario, the police gets a search warrant, goes to the office of the boss, and finds the blank piece of paper, backing up your story. (I realise this may be an unlikely outcome, but your story is the type which triggers the justice part in the conscience of people, and therefore it is not impossible.
However, even in the worst case scenario, the police will almost certainly have to write a report on what you tell them. Although I do recommend documenting this with HR as well, HR may or may not do their job, and the police is much more reliable to document this properly for you. If worst comes to worst (which, indeed, it very well may), and your job ends up on the line, having this documented by the police can be very useful. You may end up in court, and having this documented by the police may be a big help.
I realise that reporting your boss to the police is a rather aggressive approach, but this is also a quite extreme situation. Your boss has already admitted an intent to commit fraud against you, and the company. She has already taken the gloves off. You have very little to lose here. Your boss deserves to lose her job over this, not you.
Go to your/a union
Also, if you are not a member of a union, join one now, and ask them for assistance. They typically have legal teams which can help in such situations.
Consult a lawyer
If somehow a union can not provide a lawyer for you, consider consulting one on your own, if you can afford it.
Try to get the paper back, or to get evidence of what happened
This last part has only a mediocre chance of success, but you might as well try. There is a downvoted (possibly for typesetting, not content) answer which suggests talking to the boss about it, while secretly recording it, hoping that she somehow admits to what she has done, given that you are located in one of the few jurisdictions in which that is legal. If you are sure that you happen to find yourself in one of those jurisdictions, then I find that idea reasonable. If she does admit that and you get it recorded, that would be a rather valuable defense to you, and it would no longer be her words against yours. If you do happen to have such a conversation, you can, in the same conversation, ask for the paper back. This will put her on the spot, and it will be difficult for her to hold on to the paper without admitting that it exists. Also, there is the chance that she may give it back voluntarily. In that conversation, you may actually be polite. You can tell her that you thought about it, and you would like to see the warning before you sign it, and therefore want the blank paper back. If she refuses, you can step it up a notch, and inform her that what she is doing is illegal. After all that, I would say you have a pretty good chance of either getting the paper back, or getting a recording of her admitting what happened. In the worst case scenario that she just pretends she has no idea what you are talking about, and does not give you anything, then you have not really lost much, and you can proceed with HR, the police, a/your union, and a lawyer.
If recording without knowledge is not legal in your jurisdiction, I do not see why you should not have the conversation anyway, without recording. After all, what she is doing is pretty insane, and there may be a chance she has an ounce of sense in her and decides to give it back, fearing the possible consequences of committing fraud.
Act NOW, do not wait
Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Also, by acting quickly you can make something happen before she even writes anything on the sheet in the first place. The sheet of paper with nothing but your signature on it is the single most damning evidence here if found in the possession of your boss. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
This is a serious crime
"do not worry it is not a big deal, just sign this paper and I will
write the warning paragraph later".
Your boss has literally stated outright that she intends to forge a document. This is a serious crime in all jurisdictions and nations that I am aware of. Moreover, the implications could be anything from severe to devastating to you personally (and the company too).
I like the other answers, but I would most certainly report this to the police as well. Your boss has admitted to planning something criminal. In the best case scenario, the police gets a search warrant, goes to the office of the boss, and finds the blank piece of paper, backing up your story. (I realise this may be an unlikely outcome, but your story is the type which triggers the justice part in the conscience of people, and therefore it is not impossible.
However, even in the worst case scenario, the police will almost certainly have to write a report on what you tell them. Although I do recommend documenting this with HR as well, HR may or may not do their job, and the police is much more reliable to document this properly for you. If worst comes to worst (which, indeed, it very well may), and your job ends up on the line, having this documented by the police can be very useful. You may end up in court, and having this documented by the police may be a big help.
I realise that reporting your boss to the police is a rather aggressive approach, but this is also a quite extreme situation. Your boss has already admitted an intent to commit fraud against you, and the company. She has already taken the gloves off. You have very little to lose here. Your boss deserves to lose her job over this, not you.
Go to your/a union
Also, if you are not a member of a union, join one now, and ask them for assistance. They typically have legal teams which can help in such situations.
Consult a lawyer
If somehow a union can not provide a lawyer for you, consider consulting one on your own, if you can afford it.
Try to get the paper back, or to get evidence of what happened
This last part has only a mediocre chance of success, but you might as well try. There is a downvoted (possibly for typesetting, not content) answer which suggests talking to the boss about it, while secretly recording it, hoping that she somehow admits to what she has done, given that you are located in one of the few jurisdictions in which that is legal. If you are sure that you happen to find yourself in one of those jurisdictions, then I find that idea reasonable. If she does admit that and you get it recorded, that would be a rather valuable defense to you, and it would no longer be her words against yours. If you do happen to have such a conversation, you can, in the same conversation, ask for the paper back. This will put her on the spot, and it will be difficult for her to hold on to the paper without admitting that it exists. Also, there is the chance that she may give it back voluntarily. In that conversation, you may actually be polite. You can tell her that you thought about it, and you would like to see the warning before you sign it, and therefore want the blank paper back. If she refuses, you can step it up a notch, and inform her that what she is doing is illegal. After all that, I would say you have a pretty good chance of either getting the paper back, or getting a recording of her admitting what happened. In the worst case scenario that she just pretends she has no idea what you are talking about, and does not give you anything, then you have not really lost much, and you can proceed with HR, the police, a/your union, and a lawyer.
If recording without knowledge is not legal in your jurisdiction, I do not see why you should not have the conversation anyway, without recording. After all, what she is doing is pretty insane, and there may be a chance she has an ounce of sense in her and decides to give it back, fearing the possible consequences of committing fraud.
Act NOW, do not wait
Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Also, by acting quickly you can make something happen before she even writes anything on the sheet in the first place. The sheet of paper with nothing but your signature on it is the single most damning evidence here if found in the possession of your boss. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
RevetahwRevetahw
161212
161212
3
+1 for reporting to the police.
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
add a comment |
3
+1 for reporting to the police.
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
3
3
+1 for reporting to the police.
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
+1 for reporting to the police.
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
add a comment |
Speak to a LAWYER immediately!
Best, one for public service employment if the kindergarten is run by the government.
Follow their instructions.
I personally would ask the manager to hand you back the paper.
Ideally empty, but it might well be too late for that.
Make sure, she handed you the original and keep it, DON'T HAND IT BACK.
Don't let her threaten or coerce you, even at the risk of your job. (I doubt that would fly as a reason and if she trumps up any other reason you can point to the empty paper she made you sign and claim she retaliates)
If it's empty, it should be safe to destroy it (maybe best after some time passed,but ask a lawyer)
If what she wrote is bad for you in any way or you disagree, bring it to your lawyer (she may have copies).
But lawyers may have a very different way to deal with this, so go to one as soon as possible.
add a comment |
Speak to a LAWYER immediately!
Best, one for public service employment if the kindergarten is run by the government.
Follow their instructions.
I personally would ask the manager to hand you back the paper.
Ideally empty, but it might well be too late for that.
Make sure, she handed you the original and keep it, DON'T HAND IT BACK.
Don't let her threaten or coerce you, even at the risk of your job. (I doubt that would fly as a reason and if she trumps up any other reason you can point to the empty paper she made you sign and claim she retaliates)
If it's empty, it should be safe to destroy it (maybe best after some time passed,but ask a lawyer)
If what she wrote is bad for you in any way or you disagree, bring it to your lawyer (she may have copies).
But lawyers may have a very different way to deal with this, so go to one as soon as possible.
add a comment |
Speak to a LAWYER immediately!
Best, one for public service employment if the kindergarten is run by the government.
Follow their instructions.
I personally would ask the manager to hand you back the paper.
Ideally empty, but it might well be too late for that.
Make sure, she handed you the original and keep it, DON'T HAND IT BACK.
Don't let her threaten or coerce you, even at the risk of your job. (I doubt that would fly as a reason and if she trumps up any other reason you can point to the empty paper she made you sign and claim she retaliates)
If it's empty, it should be safe to destroy it (maybe best after some time passed,but ask a lawyer)
If what she wrote is bad for you in any way or you disagree, bring it to your lawyer (she may have copies).
But lawyers may have a very different way to deal with this, so go to one as soon as possible.
Speak to a LAWYER immediately!
Best, one for public service employment if the kindergarten is run by the government.
Follow their instructions.
I personally would ask the manager to hand you back the paper.
Ideally empty, but it might well be too late for that.
Make sure, she handed you the original and keep it, DON'T HAND IT BACK.
Don't let her threaten or coerce you, even at the risk of your job. (I doubt that would fly as a reason and if she trumps up any other reason you can point to the empty paper she made you sign and claim she retaliates)
If it's empty, it should be safe to destroy it (maybe best after some time passed,but ask a lawyer)
If what she wrote is bad for you in any way or you disagree, bring it to your lawyer (she may have copies).
But lawyers may have a very different way to deal with this, so go to one as soon as possible.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
DigitalBlade969DigitalBlade969
5,8251521
5,8251521
add a comment |
add a comment |
Although many answers warn of potential grave consequences, let's not forget that the malicious intention of the manager is not a given.
I would recommend to first of all go to the manager, and say you don't feel good about the blank signature, and ask for it back. There is a chance that he/she has no malicious intent, and will simply give it to you. You can always sign a sheet again once he/she has printed the proper text on it.
Of course, if he/she is declining to return it, you should go after the recommendations from the other answers.
2
If they were good intentions, there would be no need to a so underhanded move as a blank sheet
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
While asking for the paper back is not a bad idea (as long as you do other things as well), I disagree that there may be no malicious intention here. The manager has indeed admitted to you that she is about to create a forged document. That can be described in no other way than malicious.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
Although many answers warn of potential grave consequences, let's not forget that the malicious intention of the manager is not a given.
I would recommend to first of all go to the manager, and say you don't feel good about the blank signature, and ask for it back. There is a chance that he/she has no malicious intent, and will simply give it to you. You can always sign a sheet again once he/she has printed the proper text on it.
Of course, if he/she is declining to return it, you should go after the recommendations from the other answers.
2
If they were good intentions, there would be no need to a so underhanded move as a blank sheet
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
While asking for the paper back is not a bad idea (as long as you do other things as well), I disagree that there may be no malicious intention here. The manager has indeed admitted to you that she is about to create a forged document. That can be described in no other way than malicious.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
Although many answers warn of potential grave consequences, let's not forget that the malicious intention of the manager is not a given.
I would recommend to first of all go to the manager, and say you don't feel good about the blank signature, and ask for it back. There is a chance that he/she has no malicious intent, and will simply give it to you. You can always sign a sheet again once he/she has printed the proper text on it.
Of course, if he/she is declining to return it, you should go after the recommendations from the other answers.
Although many answers warn of potential grave consequences, let's not forget that the malicious intention of the manager is not a given.
I would recommend to first of all go to the manager, and say you don't feel good about the blank signature, and ask for it back. There is a chance that he/she has no malicious intent, and will simply give it to you. You can always sign a sheet again once he/she has printed the proper text on it.
Of course, if he/she is declining to return it, you should go after the recommendations from the other answers.
answered yesterday
AganjuAganju
1,09929
1,09929
2
If they were good intentions, there would be no need to a so underhanded move as a blank sheet
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
While asking for the paper back is not a bad idea (as long as you do other things as well), I disagree that there may be no malicious intention here. The manager has indeed admitted to you that she is about to create a forged document. That can be described in no other way than malicious.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
2
If they were good intentions, there would be no need to a so underhanded move as a blank sheet
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
While asking for the paper back is not a bad idea (as long as you do other things as well), I disagree that there may be no malicious intention here. The manager has indeed admitted to you that she is about to create a forged document. That can be described in no other way than malicious.
– Revetahw
yesterday
2
2
If they were good intentions, there would be no need to a so underhanded move as a blank sheet
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
If they were good intentions, there would be no need to a so underhanded move as a blank sheet
– Rui F Ribeiro
yesterday
While asking for the paper back is not a bad idea (as long as you do other things as well), I disagree that there may be no malicious intention here. The manager has indeed admitted to you that she is about to create a forged document. That can be described in no other way than malicious.
– Revetahw
yesterday
While asking for the paper back is not a bad idea (as long as you do other things as well), I disagree that there may be no malicious intention here. The manager has indeed admitted to you that she is about to create a forged document. That can be described in no other way than malicious.
– Revetahw
yesterday
add a comment |
Inform HR what has happened. HR MUST give you a signed document where they accept what you told them which you keep safe.
HR then knows that if a document with your signature turns up in the future, you can claim that you didn't sign it. Kind of a "get out of jail" card. So HR would be well advised to get that blank sheet from your manager, call you in, and destroy it in front of you with you signing that you saw it destroyed. That way everything is cleaned up.
You would need them as a witness anyway, because a document might turn up in the future that says you sold your car to the manager for $1,000.
add a comment |
Inform HR what has happened. HR MUST give you a signed document where they accept what you told them which you keep safe.
HR then knows that if a document with your signature turns up in the future, you can claim that you didn't sign it. Kind of a "get out of jail" card. So HR would be well advised to get that blank sheet from your manager, call you in, and destroy it in front of you with you signing that you saw it destroyed. That way everything is cleaned up.
You would need them as a witness anyway, because a document might turn up in the future that says you sold your car to the manager for $1,000.
add a comment |
Inform HR what has happened. HR MUST give you a signed document where they accept what you told them which you keep safe.
HR then knows that if a document with your signature turns up in the future, you can claim that you didn't sign it. Kind of a "get out of jail" card. So HR would be well advised to get that blank sheet from your manager, call you in, and destroy it in front of you with you signing that you saw it destroyed. That way everything is cleaned up.
You would need them as a witness anyway, because a document might turn up in the future that says you sold your car to the manager for $1,000.
Inform HR what has happened. HR MUST give you a signed document where they accept what you told them which you keep safe.
HR then knows that if a document with your signature turns up in the future, you can claim that you didn't sign it. Kind of a "get out of jail" card. So HR would be well advised to get that blank sheet from your manager, call you in, and destroy it in front of you with you signing that you saw it destroyed. That way everything is cleaned up.
You would need them as a witness anyway, because a document might turn up in the future that says you sold your car to the manager for $1,000.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 18 hours ago
gnasher729gnasher729
83.9k38149266
83.9k38149266
add a comment |
add a comment |
These are all "feel good" answers. You don't have a chance. Look for another job, immediately. You can waste your time and effort trying to fight city hall if you wish. Been there; done that: Lawyers, court, and all. It's useless. They hold all the cards. The realistic way to conserve as much of your time, effort, and frustration as possible is just to leave the job as soon as you possibly can. Anyone who tells you different is just trying to candy-coat a losing situation. You, and every well-meaning employee with a sadistic manager in the US, are toast. There is nothing you can do now except avoid "chasing bad money with good." Say goodbye to your kids.
New contributor
add a comment |
These are all "feel good" answers. You don't have a chance. Look for another job, immediately. You can waste your time and effort trying to fight city hall if you wish. Been there; done that: Lawyers, court, and all. It's useless. They hold all the cards. The realistic way to conserve as much of your time, effort, and frustration as possible is just to leave the job as soon as you possibly can. Anyone who tells you different is just trying to candy-coat a losing situation. You, and every well-meaning employee with a sadistic manager in the US, are toast. There is nothing you can do now except avoid "chasing bad money with good." Say goodbye to your kids.
New contributor
add a comment |
These are all "feel good" answers. You don't have a chance. Look for another job, immediately. You can waste your time and effort trying to fight city hall if you wish. Been there; done that: Lawyers, court, and all. It's useless. They hold all the cards. The realistic way to conserve as much of your time, effort, and frustration as possible is just to leave the job as soon as you possibly can. Anyone who tells you different is just trying to candy-coat a losing situation. You, and every well-meaning employee with a sadistic manager in the US, are toast. There is nothing you can do now except avoid "chasing bad money with good." Say goodbye to your kids.
New contributor
These are all "feel good" answers. You don't have a chance. Look for another job, immediately. You can waste your time and effort trying to fight city hall if you wish. Been there; done that: Lawyers, court, and all. It's useless. They hold all the cards. The realistic way to conserve as much of your time, effort, and frustration as possible is just to leave the job as soon as you possibly can. Anyone who tells you different is just trying to candy-coat a losing situation. You, and every well-meaning employee with a sadistic manager in the US, are toast. There is nothing you can do now except avoid "chasing bad money with good." Say goodbye to your kids.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
godotgodot
1
1
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
Calm down, you made a mistake. Unfortunately running in and requesting that paper you signed (which possibly does not even exist -according to her, when challenged) is an issue.
Several steps.
1. Remember and write down EVERYTHING about that day. What you where wearing, what she was wearing, the time of day (before lunch, etc). Often times, seemingly irrelevant facts can help to corroborate your story, at the very least someone else may be able to verify these facts and lend weight to your story.
- Go back and talk to her about it, noting your discomfort with the whole thing
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO LEGALLY RECORD THE CONVERSATION DEPENDING ON YOUR STATE/COUNTRY
https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf
You may also try talking to a trusted coworker and ask if they know of anything like this happening to anyone else.
IF YOU DO PLAN TO RECORD AND YOU HAVE THE LEGAL SAFETY TO DO SO, PRACTICE AND REHEARSE THIS ACT, IDEALLY WITH A FRIEND OR TWO TO ENSURE YOU TAKE A GOOD RECORDING AND YOU DONT SEEM OVERLY SUSPICIOUS DOING IT.
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND - they will, wherever possible, side with the manager - your acts will be construed as you getting second thoughts after signing the paper.
New contributor
19
Uhm, there is bold text and stuff here so you don't have to SCREAM AT US USING CAPS. ;-)
– DonQuiKong
2 days ago
2
What @DonQuiKong said ;)
– rkeet
2 days ago
2
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND is practically my catch phrase around here. in this case, they are.
– Richard U
2 days ago
While there are many problems with this answer, I believe that if you are sure doing so is legal in your jurisdiction, then attempting to make this recording is not a bad idea at all.
– Revetahw
yesterday
HR may not be your friend, but in this case, HR's interests and your interests align. HR doesn't want the company to be at the wrong end of a fraud accusation, and you don't want to need to accuse the company of fraud.
– Mark
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Calm down, you made a mistake. Unfortunately running in and requesting that paper you signed (which possibly does not even exist -according to her, when challenged) is an issue.
Several steps.
1. Remember and write down EVERYTHING about that day. What you where wearing, what she was wearing, the time of day (before lunch, etc). Often times, seemingly irrelevant facts can help to corroborate your story, at the very least someone else may be able to verify these facts and lend weight to your story.
- Go back and talk to her about it, noting your discomfort with the whole thing
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO LEGALLY RECORD THE CONVERSATION DEPENDING ON YOUR STATE/COUNTRY
https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf
You may also try talking to a trusted coworker and ask if they know of anything like this happening to anyone else.
IF YOU DO PLAN TO RECORD AND YOU HAVE THE LEGAL SAFETY TO DO SO, PRACTICE AND REHEARSE THIS ACT, IDEALLY WITH A FRIEND OR TWO TO ENSURE YOU TAKE A GOOD RECORDING AND YOU DONT SEEM OVERLY SUSPICIOUS DOING IT.
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND - they will, wherever possible, side with the manager - your acts will be construed as you getting second thoughts after signing the paper.
New contributor
19
Uhm, there is bold text and stuff here so you don't have to SCREAM AT US USING CAPS. ;-)
– DonQuiKong
2 days ago
2
What @DonQuiKong said ;)
– rkeet
2 days ago
2
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND is practically my catch phrase around here. in this case, they are.
– Richard U
2 days ago
While there are many problems with this answer, I believe that if you are sure doing so is legal in your jurisdiction, then attempting to make this recording is not a bad idea at all.
– Revetahw
yesterday
HR may not be your friend, but in this case, HR's interests and your interests align. HR doesn't want the company to be at the wrong end of a fraud accusation, and you don't want to need to accuse the company of fraud.
– Mark
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Calm down, you made a mistake. Unfortunately running in and requesting that paper you signed (which possibly does not even exist -according to her, when challenged) is an issue.
Several steps.
1. Remember and write down EVERYTHING about that day. What you where wearing, what she was wearing, the time of day (before lunch, etc). Often times, seemingly irrelevant facts can help to corroborate your story, at the very least someone else may be able to verify these facts and lend weight to your story.
- Go back and talk to her about it, noting your discomfort with the whole thing
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO LEGALLY RECORD THE CONVERSATION DEPENDING ON YOUR STATE/COUNTRY
https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf
You may also try talking to a trusted coworker and ask if they know of anything like this happening to anyone else.
IF YOU DO PLAN TO RECORD AND YOU HAVE THE LEGAL SAFETY TO DO SO, PRACTICE AND REHEARSE THIS ACT, IDEALLY WITH A FRIEND OR TWO TO ENSURE YOU TAKE A GOOD RECORDING AND YOU DONT SEEM OVERLY SUSPICIOUS DOING IT.
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND - they will, wherever possible, side with the manager - your acts will be construed as you getting second thoughts after signing the paper.
New contributor
Calm down, you made a mistake. Unfortunately running in and requesting that paper you signed (which possibly does not even exist -according to her, when challenged) is an issue.
Several steps.
1. Remember and write down EVERYTHING about that day. What you where wearing, what she was wearing, the time of day (before lunch, etc). Often times, seemingly irrelevant facts can help to corroborate your story, at the very least someone else may be able to verify these facts and lend weight to your story.
- Go back and talk to her about it, noting your discomfort with the whole thing
YOU MAY BE ABLE TO LEGALLY RECORD THE CONVERSATION DEPENDING ON YOUR STATE/COUNTRY
https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf
You may also try talking to a trusted coworker and ask if they know of anything like this happening to anyone else.
IF YOU DO PLAN TO RECORD AND YOU HAVE THE LEGAL SAFETY TO DO SO, PRACTICE AND REHEARSE THIS ACT, IDEALLY WITH A FRIEND OR TWO TO ENSURE YOU TAKE A GOOD RECORDING AND YOU DONT SEEM OVERLY SUSPICIOUS DOING IT.
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND - they will, wherever possible, side with the manager - your acts will be construed as you getting second thoughts after signing the paper.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
s fs f
21
21
New contributor
New contributor
19
Uhm, there is bold text and stuff here so you don't have to SCREAM AT US USING CAPS. ;-)
– DonQuiKong
2 days ago
2
What @DonQuiKong said ;)
– rkeet
2 days ago
2
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND is practically my catch phrase around here. in this case, they are.
– Richard U
2 days ago
While there are many problems with this answer, I believe that if you are sure doing so is legal in your jurisdiction, then attempting to make this recording is not a bad idea at all.
– Revetahw
yesterday
HR may not be your friend, but in this case, HR's interests and your interests align. HR doesn't want the company to be at the wrong end of a fraud accusation, and you don't want to need to accuse the company of fraud.
– Mark
4 hours ago
add a comment |
19
Uhm, there is bold text and stuff here so you don't have to SCREAM AT US USING CAPS. ;-)
– DonQuiKong
2 days ago
2
What @DonQuiKong said ;)
– rkeet
2 days ago
2
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND is practically my catch phrase around here. in this case, they are.
– Richard U
2 days ago
While there are many problems with this answer, I believe that if you are sure doing so is legal in your jurisdiction, then attempting to make this recording is not a bad idea at all.
– Revetahw
yesterday
HR may not be your friend, but in this case, HR's interests and your interests align. HR doesn't want the company to be at the wrong end of a fraud accusation, and you don't want to need to accuse the company of fraud.
– Mark
4 hours ago
19
19
Uhm, there is bold text and stuff here so you don't have to SCREAM AT US USING CAPS. ;-)
– DonQuiKong
2 days ago
Uhm, there is bold text and stuff here so you don't have to SCREAM AT US USING CAPS. ;-)
– DonQuiKong
2 days ago
2
2
What @DonQuiKong said ;)
– rkeet
2 days ago
What @DonQuiKong said ;)
– rkeet
2 days ago
2
2
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND is practically my catch phrase around here. in this case, they are.
– Richard U
2 days ago
HR IS NOT YOUR FRIEND is practically my catch phrase around here. in this case, they are.
– Richard U
2 days ago
While there are many problems with this answer, I believe that if you are sure doing so is legal in your jurisdiction, then attempting to make this recording is not a bad idea at all.
– Revetahw
yesterday
While there are many problems with this answer, I believe that if you are sure doing so is legal in your jurisdiction, then attempting to make this recording is not a bad idea at all.
– Revetahw
yesterday
HR may not be your friend, but in this case, HR's interests and your interests align. HR doesn't want the company to be at the wrong end of a fraud accusation, and you don't want to need to accuse the company of fraud.
– Mark
4 hours ago
HR may not be your friend, but in this case, HR's interests and your interests align. HR doesn't want the company to be at the wrong end of a fraud accusation, and you don't want to need to accuse the company of fraud.
– Mark
4 hours ago
add a comment |
Take notes and write down the chain of events as well as you remember as soon as possible and the time that they happened. I would wait and see what your manager writes in before you take any further action.
New contributor
7
-1 - see @Hilmar's answer A year from now that signed paper could have something far worse than a resignation on it. Passively hoping for the best is not a wise answer.
– Dan Pichelman
2 days ago
4
She just sold her house for one dollar. Why wait for the manager to show the contract to the bank before taking action?
– Hans Janssen
2 days ago
1
The manager said they would show the write up to the OP and that it would be minor. If it’s minor then there is no problem. If it’s major then there is a problem. The OP doesn’t yet know if there is a problem and doesn’t know how to properly react yet. If it’s no problem and the OP overreacts, then there is a new problem. I’m not advocating doing nothing, I’m advocating understanding what the OP should be reacting to before they react. You don’t just shoot at any sound you hear in the back yard, you look and see if it’s dangerous. If you go off shooting, well you might have a new problem.
– Tombo
yesterday
2
@Tombo Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
– Revetahw
yesterday
BTW you cannot sell a house with a single signature
– eckes
19 hours ago
add a comment |
Take notes and write down the chain of events as well as you remember as soon as possible and the time that they happened. I would wait and see what your manager writes in before you take any further action.
New contributor
7
-1 - see @Hilmar's answer A year from now that signed paper could have something far worse than a resignation on it. Passively hoping for the best is not a wise answer.
– Dan Pichelman
2 days ago
4
She just sold her house for one dollar. Why wait for the manager to show the contract to the bank before taking action?
– Hans Janssen
2 days ago
1
The manager said they would show the write up to the OP and that it would be minor. If it’s minor then there is no problem. If it’s major then there is a problem. The OP doesn’t yet know if there is a problem and doesn’t know how to properly react yet. If it’s no problem and the OP overreacts, then there is a new problem. I’m not advocating doing nothing, I’m advocating understanding what the OP should be reacting to before they react. You don’t just shoot at any sound you hear in the back yard, you look and see if it’s dangerous. If you go off shooting, well you might have a new problem.
– Tombo
yesterday
2
@Tombo Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
– Revetahw
yesterday
BTW you cannot sell a house with a single signature
– eckes
19 hours ago
add a comment |
Take notes and write down the chain of events as well as you remember as soon as possible and the time that they happened. I would wait and see what your manager writes in before you take any further action.
New contributor
Take notes and write down the chain of events as well as you remember as soon as possible and the time that they happened. I would wait and see what your manager writes in before you take any further action.
New contributor
edited 2 days ago
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
TomboTombo
1553
1553
New contributor
New contributor
7
-1 - see @Hilmar's answer A year from now that signed paper could have something far worse than a resignation on it. Passively hoping for the best is not a wise answer.
– Dan Pichelman
2 days ago
4
She just sold her house for one dollar. Why wait for the manager to show the contract to the bank before taking action?
– Hans Janssen
2 days ago
1
The manager said they would show the write up to the OP and that it would be minor. If it’s minor then there is no problem. If it’s major then there is a problem. The OP doesn’t yet know if there is a problem and doesn’t know how to properly react yet. If it’s no problem and the OP overreacts, then there is a new problem. I’m not advocating doing nothing, I’m advocating understanding what the OP should be reacting to before they react. You don’t just shoot at any sound you hear in the back yard, you look and see if it’s dangerous. If you go off shooting, well you might have a new problem.
– Tombo
yesterday
2
@Tombo Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
– Revetahw
yesterday
BTW you cannot sell a house with a single signature
– eckes
19 hours ago
add a comment |
7
-1 - see @Hilmar's answer A year from now that signed paper could have something far worse than a resignation on it. Passively hoping for the best is not a wise answer.
– Dan Pichelman
2 days ago
4
She just sold her house for one dollar. Why wait for the manager to show the contract to the bank before taking action?
– Hans Janssen
2 days ago
1
The manager said they would show the write up to the OP and that it would be minor. If it’s minor then there is no problem. If it’s major then there is a problem. The OP doesn’t yet know if there is a problem and doesn’t know how to properly react yet. If it’s no problem and the OP overreacts, then there is a new problem. I’m not advocating doing nothing, I’m advocating understanding what the OP should be reacting to before they react. You don’t just shoot at any sound you hear in the back yard, you look and see if it’s dangerous. If you go off shooting, well you might have a new problem.
– Tombo
yesterday
2
@Tombo Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
– Revetahw
yesterday
BTW you cannot sell a house with a single signature
– eckes
19 hours ago
7
7
-1 - see @Hilmar's answer A year from now that signed paper could have something far worse than a resignation on it. Passively hoping for the best is not a wise answer.
– Dan Pichelman
2 days ago
-1 - see @Hilmar's answer A year from now that signed paper could have something far worse than a resignation on it. Passively hoping for the best is not a wise answer.
– Dan Pichelman
2 days ago
4
4
She just sold her house for one dollar. Why wait for the manager to show the contract to the bank before taking action?
– Hans Janssen
2 days ago
She just sold her house for one dollar. Why wait for the manager to show the contract to the bank before taking action?
– Hans Janssen
2 days ago
1
1
The manager said they would show the write up to the OP and that it would be minor. If it’s minor then there is no problem. If it’s major then there is a problem. The OP doesn’t yet know if there is a problem and doesn’t know how to properly react yet. If it’s no problem and the OP overreacts, then there is a new problem. I’m not advocating doing nothing, I’m advocating understanding what the OP should be reacting to before they react. You don’t just shoot at any sound you hear in the back yard, you look and see if it’s dangerous. If you go off shooting, well you might have a new problem.
– Tombo
yesterday
The manager said they would show the write up to the OP and that it would be minor. If it’s minor then there is no problem. If it’s major then there is a problem. The OP doesn’t yet know if there is a problem and doesn’t know how to properly react yet. If it’s no problem and the OP overreacts, then there is a new problem. I’m not advocating doing nothing, I’m advocating understanding what the OP should be reacting to before they react. You don’t just shoot at any sound you hear in the back yard, you look and see if it’s dangerous. If you go off shooting, well you might have a new problem.
– Tombo
yesterday
2
2
@Tombo Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
– Revetahw
yesterday
@Tombo Time may be of the essence here. Having this documented and dated before the manager shows her forgery to anyone else and has that recorded, may be quite important for getting people to believe you here. Note that regardless of what the manager writes on that paper, it will be a forgery, and criminal. I would not waste even a second here, I would immediately get this documented.
– Revetahw
yesterday
BTW you cannot sell a house with a single signature
– eckes
19 hours ago
BTW you cannot sell a house with a single signature
– eckes
19 hours ago
add a comment |
protected by Jane S♦ yesterday
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yesterday