Can the reference plane for reducing crosstalk within a PCB be a power plane?












8












$begingroup$


One of the most effective ways to reduce the coupling between PCB traces (to reduce crosstalk) is to put the reference plane close to the traces.



I have always used a ground plane as the reference plane.



Could a power plane be the reference plane and would it still be effective?






crosstalk







share|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    8












    $begingroup$


    One of the most effective ways to reduce the coupling between PCB traces (to reduce crosstalk) is to put the reference plane close to the traces.



    I have always used a ground plane as the reference plane.



    Could a power plane be the reference plane and would it still be effective?






    crosstalk







    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      8












      8








      8





      $begingroup$


      One of the most effective ways to reduce the coupling between PCB traces (to reduce crosstalk) is to put the reference plane close to the traces.



      I have always used a ground plane as the reference plane.



      Could a power plane be the reference plane and would it still be effective?






      crosstalk







      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      One of the most effective ways to reduce the coupling between PCB traces (to reduce crosstalk) is to put the reference plane close to the traces.



      I have always used a ground plane as the reference plane.



      Could a power plane be the reference plane and would it still be effective?






      crosstalk




      crosstalk






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 10 hours ago









      JRE

      21.6k43769




      21.6k43769










      asked 12 hours ago









      AldanajaramilloAldanajaramillo

      763




      763






















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          8












          $begingroup$

          Yes, but not as effective as a ground plane. There is capacitance between a conductor (trace) and the reference plane, with a power plane there is added inductance from the power supply. The other problem is slots, as your more likely to have slots in a power plane as a reference plane, slots are bad because they redirect the return current and create more inductance which slows the signals downhigher rise times.




          Changing Reference Planes.



          When a signal trace changes from one layer
          to another on a PCB, the return current path is interrupted since the
          return current must also change reference planes (see right hand
          figure below). The question then becomes how does the return current
          get from one plane to another? As was the case for the split planes
          mentioned above the interplane capacitance is not usually large enough
          to be effective, so the return current will have to flow through the
          nearest decoupling capacitor in order to change planes. This
          obviously increases the loop area and is undesirable for all the
          reasons previously stated. One solution to this problem is to avoid
          switching reference planes for critical signals (such as clocks), if
          at all possible. If you must switch the return path from a power
          plane to a ground plane you should place an additional decoupling
          capacitor adjacent to the signal via in order to provide a
          high-frequency current path between the two planes for the signal
          return current. This is not an ideal solution, however, since the
          return current must now flow through a via, a trace, a mounting pad, a
          capacitor, a mounting pad, a trace, and finally a via to the other
          plane. This adds considerable additional inductance in the return
          path (typically 5 to 10 nH).




          Source: http://www.hottconsultants.com/techtips/pcb-stack-up-6.html






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 1




            $begingroup$
            What do you mean by that there is added inductance by the power supply? Inductance between the power supply and the power plane? Why would that affect the performance of the reference plane? The return current needs to complete the loop between source and load. The Inductance between the power supply and power plane won’t affect that.
            $endgroup$
            – user110971
            8 hours ago



















          4












          $begingroup$

          Yes it could.



          The impedance between power and ground plane should be very low, thus making the power plane a virtual ground plane from an AC perspective.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$





















            -2












            $begingroup$

            You will need very low inductance bypass capacitors, immediately adjacent to where the high-speed trace changes from over_VDD to over-GROUND.





            schematic





            simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$









            • 1




              $begingroup$
              I am not the downvoter, but I think this answers a different question. The intent of the question, from my understanding, is to use a single reference plane without crossing to a different reference plane.
              $endgroup$
              – Kevin Kruse
              8 hours ago











            Your Answer





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            3 Answers
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            active

            oldest

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            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

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            active

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            active

            oldest

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            8












            $begingroup$

            Yes, but not as effective as a ground plane. There is capacitance between a conductor (trace) and the reference plane, with a power plane there is added inductance from the power supply. The other problem is slots, as your more likely to have slots in a power plane as a reference plane, slots are bad because they redirect the return current and create more inductance which slows the signals downhigher rise times.




            Changing Reference Planes.



            When a signal trace changes from one layer
            to another on a PCB, the return current path is interrupted since the
            return current must also change reference planes (see right hand
            figure below). The question then becomes how does the return current
            get from one plane to another? As was the case for the split planes
            mentioned above the interplane capacitance is not usually large enough
            to be effective, so the return current will have to flow through the
            nearest decoupling capacitor in order to change planes. This
            obviously increases the loop area and is undesirable for all the
            reasons previously stated. One solution to this problem is to avoid
            switching reference planes for critical signals (such as clocks), if
            at all possible. If you must switch the return path from a power
            plane to a ground plane you should place an additional decoupling
            capacitor adjacent to the signal via in order to provide a
            high-frequency current path between the two planes for the signal
            return current. This is not an ideal solution, however, since the
            return current must now flow through a via, a trace, a mounting pad, a
            capacitor, a mounting pad, a trace, and finally a via to the other
            plane. This adds considerable additional inductance in the return
            path (typically 5 to 10 nH).




            Source: http://www.hottconsultants.com/techtips/pcb-stack-up-6.html






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$









            • 1




              $begingroup$
              What do you mean by that there is added inductance by the power supply? Inductance between the power supply and the power plane? Why would that affect the performance of the reference plane? The return current needs to complete the loop between source and load. The Inductance between the power supply and power plane won’t affect that.
              $endgroup$
              – user110971
              8 hours ago
















            8












            $begingroup$

            Yes, but not as effective as a ground plane. There is capacitance between a conductor (trace) and the reference plane, with a power plane there is added inductance from the power supply. The other problem is slots, as your more likely to have slots in a power plane as a reference plane, slots are bad because they redirect the return current and create more inductance which slows the signals downhigher rise times.




            Changing Reference Planes.



            When a signal trace changes from one layer
            to another on a PCB, the return current path is interrupted since the
            return current must also change reference planes (see right hand
            figure below). The question then becomes how does the return current
            get from one plane to another? As was the case for the split planes
            mentioned above the interplane capacitance is not usually large enough
            to be effective, so the return current will have to flow through the
            nearest decoupling capacitor in order to change planes. This
            obviously increases the loop area and is undesirable for all the
            reasons previously stated. One solution to this problem is to avoid
            switching reference planes for critical signals (such as clocks), if
            at all possible. If you must switch the return path from a power
            plane to a ground plane you should place an additional decoupling
            capacitor adjacent to the signal via in order to provide a
            high-frequency current path between the two planes for the signal
            return current. This is not an ideal solution, however, since the
            return current must now flow through a via, a trace, a mounting pad, a
            capacitor, a mounting pad, a trace, and finally a via to the other
            plane. This adds considerable additional inductance in the return
            path (typically 5 to 10 nH).




            Source: http://www.hottconsultants.com/techtips/pcb-stack-up-6.html






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$









            • 1




              $begingroup$
              What do you mean by that there is added inductance by the power supply? Inductance between the power supply and the power plane? Why would that affect the performance of the reference plane? The return current needs to complete the loop between source and load. The Inductance between the power supply and power plane won’t affect that.
              $endgroup$
              – user110971
              8 hours ago














            8












            8








            8





            $begingroup$

            Yes, but not as effective as a ground plane. There is capacitance between a conductor (trace) and the reference plane, with a power plane there is added inductance from the power supply. The other problem is slots, as your more likely to have slots in a power plane as a reference plane, slots are bad because they redirect the return current and create more inductance which slows the signals downhigher rise times.




            Changing Reference Planes.



            When a signal trace changes from one layer
            to another on a PCB, the return current path is interrupted since the
            return current must also change reference planes (see right hand
            figure below). The question then becomes how does the return current
            get from one plane to another? As was the case for the split planes
            mentioned above the interplane capacitance is not usually large enough
            to be effective, so the return current will have to flow through the
            nearest decoupling capacitor in order to change planes. This
            obviously increases the loop area and is undesirable for all the
            reasons previously stated. One solution to this problem is to avoid
            switching reference planes for critical signals (such as clocks), if
            at all possible. If you must switch the return path from a power
            plane to a ground plane you should place an additional decoupling
            capacitor adjacent to the signal via in order to provide a
            high-frequency current path between the two planes for the signal
            return current. This is not an ideal solution, however, since the
            return current must now flow through a via, a trace, a mounting pad, a
            capacitor, a mounting pad, a trace, and finally a via to the other
            plane. This adds considerable additional inductance in the return
            path (typically 5 to 10 nH).




            Source: http://www.hottconsultants.com/techtips/pcb-stack-up-6.html






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Yes, but not as effective as a ground plane. There is capacitance between a conductor (trace) and the reference plane, with a power plane there is added inductance from the power supply. The other problem is slots, as your more likely to have slots in a power plane as a reference plane, slots are bad because they redirect the return current and create more inductance which slows the signals downhigher rise times.




            Changing Reference Planes.



            When a signal trace changes from one layer
            to another on a PCB, the return current path is interrupted since the
            return current must also change reference planes (see right hand
            figure below). The question then becomes how does the return current
            get from one plane to another? As was the case for the split planes
            mentioned above the interplane capacitance is not usually large enough
            to be effective, so the return current will have to flow through the
            nearest decoupling capacitor in order to change planes. This
            obviously increases the loop area and is undesirable for all the
            reasons previously stated. One solution to this problem is to avoid
            switching reference planes for critical signals (such as clocks), if
            at all possible. If you must switch the return path from a power
            plane to a ground plane you should place an additional decoupling
            capacitor adjacent to the signal via in order to provide a
            high-frequency current path between the two planes for the signal
            return current. This is not an ideal solution, however, since the
            return current must now flow through a via, a trace, a mounting pad, a
            capacitor, a mounting pad, a trace, and finally a via to the other
            plane. This adds considerable additional inductance in the return
            path (typically 5 to 10 nH).




            Source: http://www.hottconsultants.com/techtips/pcb-stack-up-6.html







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 8 hours ago

























            answered 10 hours ago









            laptop2dlaptop2d

            25k123278




            25k123278








            • 1




              $begingroup$
              What do you mean by that there is added inductance by the power supply? Inductance between the power supply and the power plane? Why would that affect the performance of the reference plane? The return current needs to complete the loop between source and load. The Inductance between the power supply and power plane won’t affect that.
              $endgroup$
              – user110971
              8 hours ago














            • 1




              $begingroup$
              What do you mean by that there is added inductance by the power supply? Inductance between the power supply and the power plane? Why would that affect the performance of the reference plane? The return current needs to complete the loop between source and load. The Inductance between the power supply and power plane won’t affect that.
              $endgroup$
              – user110971
              8 hours ago








            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            What do you mean by that there is added inductance by the power supply? Inductance between the power supply and the power plane? Why would that affect the performance of the reference plane? The return current needs to complete the loop between source and load. The Inductance between the power supply and power plane won’t affect that.
            $endgroup$
            – user110971
            8 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            What do you mean by that there is added inductance by the power supply? Inductance between the power supply and the power plane? Why would that affect the performance of the reference plane? The return current needs to complete the loop between source and load. The Inductance between the power supply and power plane won’t affect that.
            $endgroup$
            – user110971
            8 hours ago













            4












            $begingroup$

            Yes it could.



            The impedance between power and ground plane should be very low, thus making the power plane a virtual ground plane from an AC perspective.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$


















              4












              $begingroup$

              Yes it could.



              The impedance between power and ground plane should be very low, thus making the power plane a virtual ground plane from an AC perspective.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$
















                4












                4








                4





                $begingroup$

                Yes it could.



                The impedance between power and ground plane should be very low, thus making the power plane a virtual ground plane from an AC perspective.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                Yes it could.



                The impedance between power and ground plane should be very low, thus making the power plane a virtual ground plane from an AC perspective.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 11 hours ago









                Peter KarlsenPeter Karlsen

                873511




                873511























                    -2












                    $begingroup$

                    You will need very low inductance bypass capacitors, immediately adjacent to where the high-speed trace changes from over_VDD to over-GROUND.





                    schematic





                    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$









                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      I am not the downvoter, but I think this answers a different question. The intent of the question, from my understanding, is to use a single reference plane without crossing to a different reference plane.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Kevin Kruse
                      8 hours ago
















                    -2












                    $begingroup$

                    You will need very low inductance bypass capacitors, immediately adjacent to where the high-speed trace changes from over_VDD to over-GROUND.





                    schematic





                    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$









                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      I am not the downvoter, but I think this answers a different question. The intent of the question, from my understanding, is to use a single reference plane without crossing to a different reference plane.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Kevin Kruse
                      8 hours ago














                    -2












                    -2








                    -2





                    $begingroup$

                    You will need very low inductance bypass capacitors, immediately adjacent to where the high-speed trace changes from over_VDD to over-GROUND.





                    schematic





                    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    You will need very low inductance bypass capacitors, immediately adjacent to where the high-speed trace changes from over_VDD to over-GROUND.





                    schematic





                    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 9 hours ago

























                    answered 9 hours ago









                    analogsystemsrfanalogsystemsrf

                    14.5k2717




                    14.5k2717








                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      I am not the downvoter, but I think this answers a different question. The intent of the question, from my understanding, is to use a single reference plane without crossing to a different reference plane.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Kevin Kruse
                      8 hours ago














                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      I am not the downvoter, but I think this answers a different question. The intent of the question, from my understanding, is to use a single reference plane without crossing to a different reference plane.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Kevin Kruse
                      8 hours ago








                    1




                    1




                    $begingroup$
                    I am not the downvoter, but I think this answers a different question. The intent of the question, from my understanding, is to use a single reference plane without crossing to a different reference plane.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Kevin Kruse
                    8 hours ago




                    $begingroup$
                    I am not the downvoter, but I think this answers a different question. The intent of the question, from my understanding, is to use a single reference plane without crossing to a different reference plane.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Kevin Kruse
                    8 hours ago


















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