Is there any instance where “x y” doesn't mean the same thing as “y of x”?
Like for example "fire archon" means the same thing as "archon of fire"? Right? Is there any instance where this might be false?
grammar
|
show 3 more comments
Like for example "fire archon" means the same thing as "archon of fire"? Right? Is there any instance where this might be false?
grammar
1
Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.
– Davo
yesterday
1
yellow bus - bus of yellow
– virolino
yesterday
1
On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule
– virolino
yesterday
2
One more thing: what is the meaning ofof
?Made of
,belonging to
... Because I am not sure what to understand from"archon of fire"
(I assume it ismade of
in this case)
– virolino
yesterday
2
Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
Like for example "fire archon" means the same thing as "archon of fire"? Right? Is there any instance where this might be false?
grammar
Like for example "fire archon" means the same thing as "archon of fire"? Right? Is there any instance where this might be false?
grammar
grammar
asked yesterday
repomonsterrepomonster
2595
2595
1
Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.
– Davo
yesterday
1
yellow bus - bus of yellow
– virolino
yesterday
1
On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule
– virolino
yesterday
2
One more thing: what is the meaning ofof
?Made of
,belonging to
... Because I am not sure what to understand from"archon of fire"
(I assume it ismade of
in this case)
– virolino
yesterday
2
Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
1
Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.
– Davo
yesterday
1
yellow bus - bus of yellow
– virolino
yesterday
1
On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule
– virolino
yesterday
2
One more thing: what is the meaning ofof
?Made of
,belonging to
... Because I am not sure what to understand from"archon of fire"
(I assume it ismade of
in this case)
– virolino
yesterday
2
Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
1
1
Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.
– Davo
yesterday
Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.
– Davo
yesterday
1
1
yellow bus - bus of yellow
– virolino
yesterday
yellow bus - bus of yellow
– virolino
yesterday
1
1
On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule
– virolino
yesterday
On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule
– virolino
yesterday
2
2
One more thing: what is the meaning of
of
? Made of
, belonging to
... Because I am not sure what to understand from "archon of fire"
(I assume it is made of
in this case)– virolino
yesterday
One more thing: what is the meaning of
of
? Made of
, belonging to
... Because I am not sure what to understand from "archon of fire"
(I assume it is made of
in this case)– virolino
yesterday
2
2
Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".
What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.
There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.
New contributor
6
Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
@CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.
– 1006a
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".
I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.
To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.
Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".
What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.
There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.
New contributor
6
Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
@CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.
– 1006a
yesterday
add a comment |
So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".
What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.
There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.
New contributor
6
Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
@CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.
– 1006a
yesterday
add a comment |
So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".
What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.
There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.
New contributor
So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".
What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.
There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
SamBCSamBC
4788
4788
New contributor
New contributor
6
Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
@CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.
– 1006a
yesterday
add a comment |
6
Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
@CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.
– 1006a
yesterday
6
6
Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday
@CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.
– 1006a
yesterday
@CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.
– 1006a
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".
I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.
To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.
Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.
add a comment |
I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".
I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.
To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.
Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.
add a comment |
I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".
I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.
To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.
Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.
I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".
I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.
To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.
Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
AstralbeeAstralbee
10.6k841
10.6k841
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.
– Davo
yesterday
1
yellow bus - bus of yellow
– virolino
yesterday
1
On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule
– virolino
yesterday
2
One more thing: what is the meaning of
of
?Made of
,belonging to
... Because I am not sure what to understand from"archon of fire"
(I assume it ismade of
in this case)– virolino
yesterday
2
Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.
– Canadian Yankee
yesterday