Is there any instance where “x y” doesn't mean the same thing as “y of x”?












0















Like for example "fire archon" means the same thing as "archon of fire"? Right? Is there any instance where this might be false?










share|improve this question


















  • 1





    Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.

    – Davo
    yesterday






  • 1





    yellow bus - bus of yellow

    – virolino
    yesterday






  • 1





    On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule

    – virolino
    yesterday






  • 2





    One more thing: what is the meaning of of? Made of, belonging to... Because I am not sure what to understand from "archon of fire" (I assume it is made of in this case)

    – virolino
    yesterday








  • 2





    Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.

    – Canadian Yankee
    yesterday
















0















Like for example "fire archon" means the same thing as "archon of fire"? Right? Is there any instance where this might be false?










share|improve this question


















  • 1





    Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.

    – Davo
    yesterday






  • 1





    yellow bus - bus of yellow

    – virolino
    yesterday






  • 1





    On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule

    – virolino
    yesterday






  • 2





    One more thing: what is the meaning of of? Made of, belonging to... Because I am not sure what to understand from "archon of fire" (I assume it is made of in this case)

    – virolino
    yesterday








  • 2





    Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.

    – Canadian Yankee
    yesterday














0












0








0








Like for example "fire archon" means the same thing as "archon of fire"? Right? Is there any instance where this might be false?










share|improve this question














Like for example "fire archon" means the same thing as "archon of fire"? Right? Is there any instance where this might be false?







grammar






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked yesterday









repomonsterrepomonster

2595




2595








  • 1





    Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.

    – Davo
    yesterday






  • 1





    yellow bus - bus of yellow

    – virolino
    yesterday






  • 1





    On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule

    – virolino
    yesterday






  • 2





    One more thing: what is the meaning of of? Made of, belonging to... Because I am not sure what to understand from "archon of fire" (I assume it is made of in this case)

    – virolino
    yesterday








  • 2





    Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.

    – Canadian Yankee
    yesterday














  • 1





    Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.

    – Davo
    yesterday






  • 1





    yellow bus - bus of yellow

    – virolino
    yesterday






  • 1





    On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule

    – virolino
    yesterday






  • 2





    One more thing: what is the meaning of of? Made of, belonging to... Because I am not sure what to understand from "archon of fire" (I assume it is made of in this case)

    – virolino
    yesterday








  • 2





    Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.

    – Canadian Yankee
    yesterday








1




1





Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.

– Davo
yesterday





Dead relatives =/= relatives of dead.

– Davo
yesterday




1




1





yellow bus - bus of yellow

– virolino
yesterday





yellow bus - bus of yellow

– virolino
yesterday




1




1





On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule

– virolino
yesterday





On the other hand, the question is not very detailed. And even though I understand what is meant, an answer may be difficult to compose. I am curious about a "generic" rule

– virolino
yesterday




2




2





One more thing: what is the meaning of of? Made of, belonging to... Because I am not sure what to understand from "archon of fire" (I assume it is made of in this case)

– virolino
yesterday







One more thing: what is the meaning of of? Made of, belonging to... Because I am not sure what to understand from "archon of fire" (I assume it is made of in this case)

– virolino
yesterday






2




2





Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.

– Canadian Yankee
yesterday





Even with a noun, dog food is not food made of dogs.

– Canadian Yankee
yesterday










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















9














So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".



What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.



There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 6





    Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"

    – Canadian Yankee
    yesterday











  • @CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.

    – 1006a
    yesterday



















4














I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".



I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.



To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.



Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.






share|improve this answer

























    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function() {
    var channelOptions = {
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "481"
    };
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
    createEditor();
    });
    }
    else {
    createEditor();
    }
    });

    function createEditor() {
    StackExchange.prepareEditor({
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader: {
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    },
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    });


    }
    });














    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function () {
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fell.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f194989%2fis-there-any-instance-where-x-y-doesnt-mean-the-same-thing-as-y-of-x%23new-answer', 'question_page');
    }
    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    9














    So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".



    What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.



    There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.
















    • 6





      Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"

      – Canadian Yankee
      yesterday











    • @CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.

      – 1006a
      yesterday
















    9














    So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".



    What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.



    There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.
















    • 6





      Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"

      – Canadian Yankee
      yesterday











    • @CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.

      – 1006a
      yesterday














    9












    9








    9







    So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".



    What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.



    There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.






    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.










    So, what you're talking about is an adjunct noun or attributive noun, where one noun is used to indicate attributes of another noun. This isn't precisely the same as using it as an adjective, because if it were an adjective, "X Y" would mean "Y that is X" - "red shirt"/"shirt that is red".



    What you're doing is working out the fuller phrase that corresponds to the simple noun phrase, and one of those expansion would mean "of". However, there are some that mean "from" or "for", or even "by". For example, "Melton Mowbray Pork Pie" is a type of pork pie that comes from Melton Mowbray (which is a town in Leicestershire, England), and a "trouser press" is a press for trousers. An "Agatha Christie book" is a book by Agatha Christie.



    There are other prepositions that can be implied as well. I wouldn't even say I was 100% that it would always be a preposition.







    share|improve this answer








    New contributor




    SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.









    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer






    New contributor




    SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.









    answered yesterday









    SamBCSamBC

    4788




    4788




    New contributor




    SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.





    New contributor





    SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






    SamBC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.








    • 6





      Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"

      – Canadian Yankee
      yesterday











    • @CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.

      – 1006a
      yesterday














    • 6





      Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"

      – Canadian Yankee
      yesterday











    • @CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.

      – 1006a
      yesterday








    6




    6





    Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"

    – Canadian Yankee
    yesterday





    Just spotted online today, an example of how attributive nouns mean completely different things based on context: "If almond milk is extracted from almonds, then where does baby oil come from?"

    – Canadian Yankee
    yesterday













    @CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.

    – 1006a
    yesterday





    @CanadianYankee That sounds like Wednesday Addams' line when offered a box of delicious Girl Scout Cookies.

    – 1006a
    yesterday













    4














    I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".



    I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.



    To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.



    Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.






    share|improve this answer






























      4














      I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".



      I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.



      To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.



      Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.






      share|improve this answer




























        4












        4








        4







        I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".



        I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.



        To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.



        Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.






        share|improve this answer















        I'm not even sure if I agree that a "fire archon" is "an archon of fire".



        I have to admit, I didn't know what it was so I looked it up. So it is a fictitious creature that from appearances seems to be composed of fire. So "Fire Archon" is a common-noun (assuming there are many of them), and a fairly apt one too, not dissimilar from the common noun "snowman" which is a "man" made of snow. This is not a "rule" of English though - this is just a naming convention, of which there are many.



        To say that a "Fire Archon" is an archon (a "ruler" or "leader" as in "Archangel", a chief angel, or "Archbishop", the chief bishop) of fire would mean that it rules fire, not necessarily that it is a ruler made of fire. Maybe it is both, I don't know. My point is that any words you can find that do seem to follow the pattern of your example do not necessarily mean the same thing. A "man of honour" does not mean he is made of honour like the "man of snow" is made of snow.



        Consider a "pond-dweller", which might be used to denote any creature that lives in a pond, for example, a frog. It is neither a common noun (frog) nor a proper noun (Kermit, perhaps?), but an attributive noun. It is a name for an attribute of a frog. Also, this does not quite work the way your example does - you could speak of frogs in general and say "the frog is a dweller of ponds" (plural) but you would not say of a particular frog "Kermit the frog is a dweller of a pond". It just doesn't scan.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered yesterday









        AstralbeeAstralbee

        10.6k841




        10.6k841






























            draft saved

            draft discarded




















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to English Language Learners Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid



            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fell.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f194989%2fis-there-any-instance-where-x-y-doesnt-mean-the-same-thing-as-y-of-x%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            "Incorrect syntax near the keyword 'ON'. (on update cascade, on delete cascade,)

            Alcedinidae

            Origin of the phrase “under your belt”?