What are the consequences of giving an ASI or feat every 4 character levels instead of every 4 class levels?












19












$begingroup$


I'm trying to figure out why Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition designers decided that ASI or feats would be given every 4 class levels and not every 4 character levels.



If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat at character levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19, how would the game balance be concretely impacted? How could the players abuse this?



The peculiarities of some classes such as the fighter and the rogue would be kept: a rogue would still gain an ASI at rogue level 10 and a fighter at fighter levels 6 and 14.






dnd-5e character-advancement character-levels







share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You might want to clarify that you mean 'character level' is taken instead of the 'class level' ASI because by the usual way things are read around here, some people might think you mean to give the ASI in both cases, which means you could multiclass into two additional classes for an ASI each and every level.
    $endgroup$
    – MarkTO
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    In this proposed system, say you have an 8th level character that has 2 levels in Paladin and 6 in Fighter (for whatever reason). When they reached level 8, did they get two ASIs at the same time (one for being level 8, and another for being a 6th level fighter) or only one? Or does it work some third way I haven't mentioned?
    $endgroup$
    – Gandalfmeansme
    yesterday
















19












$begingroup$


I'm trying to figure out why Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition designers decided that ASI or feats would be given every 4 class levels and not every 4 character levels.



If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat at character levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19, how would the game balance be concretely impacted? How could the players abuse this?



The peculiarities of some classes such as the fighter and the rogue would be kept: a rogue would still gain an ASI at rogue level 10 and a fighter at fighter levels 6 and 14.






dnd-5e character-advancement character-levels







share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You might want to clarify that you mean 'character level' is taken instead of the 'class level' ASI because by the usual way things are read around here, some people might think you mean to give the ASI in both cases, which means you could multiclass into two additional classes for an ASI each and every level.
    $endgroup$
    – MarkTO
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    In this proposed system, say you have an 8th level character that has 2 levels in Paladin and 6 in Fighter (for whatever reason). When they reached level 8, did they get two ASIs at the same time (one for being level 8, and another for being a 6th level fighter) or only one? Or does it work some third way I haven't mentioned?
    $endgroup$
    – Gandalfmeansme
    yesterday














19












19








19





$begingroup$


I'm trying to figure out why Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition designers decided that ASI or feats would be given every 4 class levels and not every 4 character levels.



If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat at character levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19, how would the game balance be concretely impacted? How could the players abuse this?



The peculiarities of some classes such as the fighter and the rogue would be kept: a rogue would still gain an ASI at rogue level 10 and a fighter at fighter levels 6 and 14.






dnd-5e character-advancement character-levels







share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I'm trying to figure out why Dungeons & Dragons 5th edition designers decided that ASI or feats would be given every 4 class levels and not every 4 character levels.



If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat at character levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19, how would the game balance be concretely impacted? How could the players abuse this?



The peculiarities of some classes such as the fighter and the rogue would be kept: a rogue would still gain an ASI at rogue level 10 and a fighter at fighter levels 6 and 14.






dnd-5e character-advancement character-levels




dnd-5e character-advancement character-levels






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited yesterday









V2Blast

21.8k365139




21.8k365139










asked yesterday









Olivier GrégoireOlivier Grégoire

1,77721331




1,77721331








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You might want to clarify that you mean 'character level' is taken instead of the 'class level' ASI because by the usual way things are read around here, some people might think you mean to give the ASI in both cases, which means you could multiclass into two additional classes for an ASI each and every level.
    $endgroup$
    – MarkTO
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    In this proposed system, say you have an 8th level character that has 2 levels in Paladin and 6 in Fighter (for whatever reason). When they reached level 8, did they get two ASIs at the same time (one for being level 8, and another for being a 6th level fighter) or only one? Or does it work some third way I haven't mentioned?
    $endgroup$
    – Gandalfmeansme
    yesterday














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You might want to clarify that you mean 'character level' is taken instead of the 'class level' ASI because by the usual way things are read around here, some people might think you mean to give the ASI in both cases, which means you could multiclass into two additional classes for an ASI each and every level.
    $endgroup$
    – MarkTO
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    In this proposed system, say you have an 8th level character that has 2 levels in Paladin and 6 in Fighter (for whatever reason). When they reached level 8, did they get two ASIs at the same time (one for being level 8, and another for being a 6th level fighter) or only one? Or does it work some third way I haven't mentioned?
    $endgroup$
    – Gandalfmeansme
    yesterday








1




1




$begingroup$
You might want to clarify that you mean 'character level' is taken instead of the 'class level' ASI because by the usual way things are read around here, some people might think you mean to give the ASI in both cases, which means you could multiclass into two additional classes for an ASI each and every level.
$endgroup$
– MarkTO
yesterday






$begingroup$
You might want to clarify that you mean 'character level' is taken instead of the 'class level' ASI because by the usual way things are read around here, some people might think you mean to give the ASI in both cases, which means you could multiclass into two additional classes for an ASI each and every level.
$endgroup$
– MarkTO
yesterday














$begingroup$
In this proposed system, say you have an 8th level character that has 2 levels in Paladin and 6 in Fighter (for whatever reason). When they reached level 8, did they get two ASIs at the same time (one for being level 8, and another for being a 6th level fighter) or only one? Or does it work some third way I haven't mentioned?
$endgroup$
– Gandalfmeansme
yesterday




$begingroup$
In this proposed system, say you have an 8th level character that has 2 levels in Paladin and 6 in Fighter (for whatever reason). When they reached level 8, did they get two ASIs at the same time (one for being level 8, and another for being a 6th level fighter) or only one? Or does it work some third way I haven't mentioned?
$endgroup$
– Gandalfmeansme
yesterday










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















34












$begingroup$

It tips balance towards multiclassing



Delaying the ASI or feat bonus is one of the detriments of multiclassing. It balances out the benefits of multiclassing.



Giving ASI or feat for every 4 total levels incentivises multiclassing, and steps on the toes of the fighter class that gets an extra ASI at level 6.



Multiclass Comparison



Consider something simple and melee oriented such as a level 4 fighter. Compare to a fighter 2 barbarian 2 and fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1.



The system you propose obviates the class feature at level 4.




  • The fighter 4 alone will have features from 3 levels, plus one ASI.

  • The fighter 2 barbarian 2 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.

  • The fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.


This allows gaining features without sacrificing the cost of ASI or feats.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    actually, I think a fighter rogue barbarian sounds like it could work...
    $endgroup$
    – goodguy5
    yesterday






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    This answer seems to hinge on "at levels where a class would normally get ASI, they don't get any other features" based on the fighter 4 description. I don't know whether that is accurate, but it seems like an important premise that should be stated rather than implied.
    $endgroup$
    – Kamil Drakari
    yesterday






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    For completeness, you may want to extent your second paragraph. Fighters get ASIs at 6th and 14th level (in addition to 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th), and rogues also get an ASI at 10th level.
    $endgroup$
    – Marq
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    @KamilDrakari Clerics do increased damage with cantrips or weapons (depending on domain) on level 8.
    $endgroup$
    – András
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    It may also be worth looking at how useful capstone abilities, and more significantly full spellcasting progression, may be, versus what you can get from one or more dips. Both capstones and progression add further reasons to stick with a single class, each one offering a different and similar penalty to ASIs/Feats (casting in particular makes the ASI one more complex).
    $endgroup$
    – Justin Time
    20 hours ago





















11












$begingroup$

Multiclassing



To reward/incentivize AGAINST multiclassing. This way you have more options on when to multiclass, instead of just which class to choose. It also makes it tougher to add multiple classes that require different minimum ability scores.




If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat every 4 character levels, how would the game balance be concretely impacted?




I think if they are solo class'd it wouldn't be a change at all, and unless they get really crazy into multiclassing it wont really be much of a difference. But it will absolutely lead to stronger PC's than the system intends.




How could the players abuse this?




They could conceivably create class combinations that are limited by the minimum ability scores under the normal rules which, while likely a lot of whacky fun, could lead to very strong combos. The system is that way to limit some of this because you likely have a deficient ability score somewhere to stop you from taking a bunch of classes/dips.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$













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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    34












    $begingroup$

    It tips balance towards multiclassing



    Delaying the ASI or feat bonus is one of the detriments of multiclassing. It balances out the benefits of multiclassing.



    Giving ASI or feat for every 4 total levels incentivises multiclassing, and steps on the toes of the fighter class that gets an extra ASI at level 6.



    Multiclass Comparison



    Consider something simple and melee oriented such as a level 4 fighter. Compare to a fighter 2 barbarian 2 and fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1.



    The system you propose obviates the class feature at level 4.




    • The fighter 4 alone will have features from 3 levels, plus one ASI.

    • The fighter 2 barbarian 2 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.

    • The fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.


    This allows gaining features without sacrificing the cost of ASI or feats.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      actually, I think a fighter rogue barbarian sounds like it could work...
      $endgroup$
      – goodguy5
      yesterday






    • 13




      $begingroup$
      This answer seems to hinge on "at levels where a class would normally get ASI, they don't get any other features" based on the fighter 4 description. I don't know whether that is accurate, but it seems like an important premise that should be stated rather than implied.
      $endgroup$
      – Kamil Drakari
      yesterday






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      For completeness, you may want to extent your second paragraph. Fighters get ASIs at 6th and 14th level (in addition to 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th), and rogues also get an ASI at 10th level.
      $endgroup$
      – Marq
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      @KamilDrakari Clerics do increased damage with cantrips or weapons (depending on domain) on level 8.
      $endgroup$
      – András
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      It may also be worth looking at how useful capstone abilities, and more significantly full spellcasting progression, may be, versus what you can get from one or more dips. Both capstones and progression add further reasons to stick with a single class, each one offering a different and similar penalty to ASIs/Feats (casting in particular makes the ASI one more complex).
      $endgroup$
      – Justin Time
      20 hours ago


















    34












    $begingroup$

    It tips balance towards multiclassing



    Delaying the ASI or feat bonus is one of the detriments of multiclassing. It balances out the benefits of multiclassing.



    Giving ASI or feat for every 4 total levels incentivises multiclassing, and steps on the toes of the fighter class that gets an extra ASI at level 6.



    Multiclass Comparison



    Consider something simple and melee oriented such as a level 4 fighter. Compare to a fighter 2 barbarian 2 and fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1.



    The system you propose obviates the class feature at level 4.




    • The fighter 4 alone will have features from 3 levels, plus one ASI.

    • The fighter 2 barbarian 2 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.

    • The fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.


    This allows gaining features without sacrificing the cost of ASI or feats.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      actually, I think a fighter rogue barbarian sounds like it could work...
      $endgroup$
      – goodguy5
      yesterday






    • 13




      $begingroup$
      This answer seems to hinge on "at levels where a class would normally get ASI, they don't get any other features" based on the fighter 4 description. I don't know whether that is accurate, but it seems like an important premise that should be stated rather than implied.
      $endgroup$
      – Kamil Drakari
      yesterday






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      For completeness, you may want to extent your second paragraph. Fighters get ASIs at 6th and 14th level (in addition to 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th), and rogues also get an ASI at 10th level.
      $endgroup$
      – Marq
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      @KamilDrakari Clerics do increased damage with cantrips or weapons (depending on domain) on level 8.
      $endgroup$
      – András
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      It may also be worth looking at how useful capstone abilities, and more significantly full spellcasting progression, may be, versus what you can get from one or more dips. Both capstones and progression add further reasons to stick with a single class, each one offering a different and similar penalty to ASIs/Feats (casting in particular makes the ASI one more complex).
      $endgroup$
      – Justin Time
      20 hours ago
















    34












    34








    34





    $begingroup$

    It tips balance towards multiclassing



    Delaying the ASI or feat bonus is one of the detriments of multiclassing. It balances out the benefits of multiclassing.



    Giving ASI or feat for every 4 total levels incentivises multiclassing, and steps on the toes of the fighter class that gets an extra ASI at level 6.



    Multiclass Comparison



    Consider something simple and melee oriented such as a level 4 fighter. Compare to a fighter 2 barbarian 2 and fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1.



    The system you propose obviates the class feature at level 4.




    • The fighter 4 alone will have features from 3 levels, plus one ASI.

    • The fighter 2 barbarian 2 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.

    • The fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.


    This allows gaining features without sacrificing the cost of ASI or feats.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    It tips balance towards multiclassing



    Delaying the ASI or feat bonus is one of the detriments of multiclassing. It balances out the benefits of multiclassing.



    Giving ASI or feat for every 4 total levels incentivises multiclassing, and steps on the toes of the fighter class that gets an extra ASI at level 6.



    Multiclass Comparison



    Consider something simple and melee oriented such as a level 4 fighter. Compare to a fighter 2 barbarian 2 and fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1.



    The system you propose obviates the class feature at level 4.




    • The fighter 4 alone will have features from 3 levels, plus one ASI.

    • The fighter 2 barbarian 2 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.

    • The fighter 2 barbarian 1 rogue 1 will have features from 4 levels plus one ASI.


    This allows gaining features without sacrificing the cost of ASI or feats.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered yesterday









    GrosscolGrosscol

    9,4872466




    9,4872466












    • $begingroup$
      actually, I think a fighter rogue barbarian sounds like it could work...
      $endgroup$
      – goodguy5
      yesterday






    • 13




      $begingroup$
      This answer seems to hinge on "at levels where a class would normally get ASI, they don't get any other features" based on the fighter 4 description. I don't know whether that is accurate, but it seems like an important premise that should be stated rather than implied.
      $endgroup$
      – Kamil Drakari
      yesterday






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      For completeness, you may want to extent your second paragraph. Fighters get ASIs at 6th and 14th level (in addition to 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th), and rogues also get an ASI at 10th level.
      $endgroup$
      – Marq
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      @KamilDrakari Clerics do increased damage with cantrips or weapons (depending on domain) on level 8.
      $endgroup$
      – András
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      It may also be worth looking at how useful capstone abilities, and more significantly full spellcasting progression, may be, versus what you can get from one or more dips. Both capstones and progression add further reasons to stick with a single class, each one offering a different and similar penalty to ASIs/Feats (casting in particular makes the ASI one more complex).
      $endgroup$
      – Justin Time
      20 hours ago




















    • $begingroup$
      actually, I think a fighter rogue barbarian sounds like it could work...
      $endgroup$
      – goodguy5
      yesterday






    • 13




      $begingroup$
      This answer seems to hinge on "at levels where a class would normally get ASI, they don't get any other features" based on the fighter 4 description. I don't know whether that is accurate, but it seems like an important premise that should be stated rather than implied.
      $endgroup$
      – Kamil Drakari
      yesterday






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      For completeness, you may want to extent your second paragraph. Fighters get ASIs at 6th and 14th level (in addition to 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th), and rogues also get an ASI at 10th level.
      $endgroup$
      – Marq
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      @KamilDrakari Clerics do increased damage with cantrips or weapons (depending on domain) on level 8.
      $endgroup$
      – András
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      It may also be worth looking at how useful capstone abilities, and more significantly full spellcasting progression, may be, versus what you can get from one or more dips. Both capstones and progression add further reasons to stick with a single class, each one offering a different and similar penalty to ASIs/Feats (casting in particular makes the ASI one more complex).
      $endgroup$
      – Justin Time
      20 hours ago


















    $begingroup$
    actually, I think a fighter rogue barbarian sounds like it could work...
    $endgroup$
    – goodguy5
    yesterday




    $begingroup$
    actually, I think a fighter rogue barbarian sounds like it could work...
    $endgroup$
    – goodguy5
    yesterday




    13




    13




    $begingroup$
    This answer seems to hinge on "at levels where a class would normally get ASI, they don't get any other features" based on the fighter 4 description. I don't know whether that is accurate, but it seems like an important premise that should be stated rather than implied.
    $endgroup$
    – Kamil Drakari
    yesterday




    $begingroup$
    This answer seems to hinge on "at levels where a class would normally get ASI, they don't get any other features" based on the fighter 4 description. I don't know whether that is accurate, but it seems like an important premise that should be stated rather than implied.
    $endgroup$
    – Kamil Drakari
    yesterday




    2




    2




    $begingroup$
    For completeness, you may want to extent your second paragraph. Fighters get ASIs at 6th and 14th level (in addition to 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th), and rogues also get an ASI at 10th level.
    $endgroup$
    – Marq
    yesterday




    $begingroup$
    For completeness, you may want to extent your second paragraph. Fighters get ASIs at 6th and 14th level (in addition to 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th), and rogues also get an ASI at 10th level.
    $endgroup$
    – Marq
    yesterday












    $begingroup$
    @KamilDrakari Clerics do increased damage with cantrips or weapons (depending on domain) on level 8.
    $endgroup$
    – András
    yesterday




    $begingroup$
    @KamilDrakari Clerics do increased damage with cantrips or weapons (depending on domain) on level 8.
    $endgroup$
    – András
    yesterday












    $begingroup$
    It may also be worth looking at how useful capstone abilities, and more significantly full spellcasting progression, may be, versus what you can get from one or more dips. Both capstones and progression add further reasons to stick with a single class, each one offering a different and similar penalty to ASIs/Feats (casting in particular makes the ASI one more complex).
    $endgroup$
    – Justin Time
    20 hours ago






    $begingroup$
    It may also be worth looking at how useful capstone abilities, and more significantly full spellcasting progression, may be, versus what you can get from one or more dips. Both capstones and progression add further reasons to stick with a single class, each one offering a different and similar penalty to ASIs/Feats (casting in particular makes the ASI one more complex).
    $endgroup$
    – Justin Time
    20 hours ago















    11












    $begingroup$

    Multiclassing



    To reward/incentivize AGAINST multiclassing. This way you have more options on when to multiclass, instead of just which class to choose. It also makes it tougher to add multiple classes that require different minimum ability scores.




    If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat every 4 character levels, how would the game balance be concretely impacted?




    I think if they are solo class'd it wouldn't be a change at all, and unless they get really crazy into multiclassing it wont really be much of a difference. But it will absolutely lead to stronger PC's than the system intends.




    How could the players abuse this?




    They could conceivably create class combinations that are limited by the minimum ability scores under the normal rules which, while likely a lot of whacky fun, could lead to very strong combos. The system is that way to limit some of this because you likely have a deficient ability score somewhere to stop you from taking a bunch of classes/dips.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$


















      11












      $begingroup$

      Multiclassing



      To reward/incentivize AGAINST multiclassing. This way you have more options on when to multiclass, instead of just which class to choose. It also makes it tougher to add multiple classes that require different minimum ability scores.




      If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat every 4 character levels, how would the game balance be concretely impacted?




      I think if they are solo class'd it wouldn't be a change at all, and unless they get really crazy into multiclassing it wont really be much of a difference. But it will absolutely lead to stronger PC's than the system intends.




      How could the players abuse this?




      They could conceivably create class combinations that are limited by the minimum ability scores under the normal rules which, while likely a lot of whacky fun, could lead to very strong combos. The system is that way to limit some of this because you likely have a deficient ability score somewhere to stop you from taking a bunch of classes/dips.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$
















        11












        11








        11





        $begingroup$

        Multiclassing



        To reward/incentivize AGAINST multiclassing. This way you have more options on when to multiclass, instead of just which class to choose. It also makes it tougher to add multiple classes that require different minimum ability scores.




        If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat every 4 character levels, how would the game balance be concretely impacted?




        I think if they are solo class'd it wouldn't be a change at all, and unless they get really crazy into multiclassing it wont really be much of a difference. But it will absolutely lead to stronger PC's than the system intends.




        How could the players abuse this?




        They could conceivably create class combinations that are limited by the minimum ability scores under the normal rules which, while likely a lot of whacky fun, could lead to very strong combos. The system is that way to limit some of this because you likely have a deficient ability score somewhere to stop you from taking a bunch of classes/dips.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Multiclassing



        To reward/incentivize AGAINST multiclassing. This way you have more options on when to multiclass, instead of just which class to choose. It also makes it tougher to add multiple classes that require different minimum ability scores.




        If I allowed my players to get an ASI or feat every 4 character levels, how would the game balance be concretely impacted?




        I think if they are solo class'd it wouldn't be a change at all, and unless they get really crazy into multiclassing it wont really be much of a difference. But it will absolutely lead to stronger PC's than the system intends.




        How could the players abuse this?




        They could conceivably create class combinations that are limited by the minimum ability scores under the normal rules which, while likely a lot of whacky fun, could lead to very strong combos. The system is that way to limit some of this because you likely have a deficient ability score somewhere to stop you from taking a bunch of classes/dips.







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