How would one interpret: “must not exceed X and Y” vs “must not exceed X and not exceed Y”












-1















EDIT/NOTE: This phrase is from a legal document, so rules of plain language / literal interpretation are assumed to apply, so please refrain from assuming what you believe was intended by the writer. THIS IS NOT A LEGAL QUESTION, but one about proper grammatical logic. It would be highly appreciated if you referenced English grammar rules to support your point.



I've been debating with someone over the correct grammatical interpretation of the following sentence:




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and 12 feet in height.




I am fairly convinced this means the structure must exceed both base and height dimensions in order to fail to meet the requirement. However they argue if the structure exceeds either base or height dimensions, then it will fail to meet the requirement.




  • Here are the two ways this could be logically interpreted, both returning opposite results:


    H = 10, B = 20



    not (H > 12 and B > 12) ------> True



    not H > 12 and not B > 12 ------> False





I believe my interpretation is correct since there is only a single "not exceed", as well as no commas in the sentence. Whereas if the sentence said "not exceed ... and not exceed..", then that would follow the second logic:




Structure must not exceed (12 feet by 12 feet base and 12 feet in height) ------> True



Structure must (not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base) and (not exceed 12 feet in height) ------> False




Furthermore, if the sentence used an "or" instead of "and", then that would mean that exceeding either constraint would result in failure to meet the requirement:




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




Grammatically speaking, I believe the "and" is a coordinating conjunction forming a compound object, upon which the "not exceed" is acting singularly to both objects. Is this accurate?










share|improve this question









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  • 3





    I don't think it needs much grammaticaI analysis: fairly sure that the requirement limits the structure's size in all dimensions, not selectively, which makes the statement unambiguous. To stretch the point, a structure which is 1 mile high won't be allowed just because its base is 11 feet by 11 feet.

    – Weather Vane
    7 hours ago











  • @WeatherVane can you please reference grammar rules for what you are saying? In the document which this phrase came from, there are other restrictions on the dimensions, so ridiculous dimensions like you mention wouldn't be possible. I don't think this statement is unambiguous at all - this is the exact sort of grammar logic that can trip people up - which is why I backed up my explanation with grammatical rules. If that grammatical reasoning is incorrect, I would like to know why.

    – John
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    Conjunction reduction always removes information. When information is removed, ambiguity is more likely. In an ambiguous sentence, the interpretation by the addressee cannot be controlled.

    – John Lawler
    7 hours ago











  • @JohnLawler The problem is, the reduction of information is optional. I gave an example of a sentence (with two "not exceed") that features a conjunction without reduction. More relevant however is that this statement came from a legal document, meaning sentences should be interpreted with minimal assumption, and should be written as such.

    – John
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it appears to be a rant about how English should follow mathematical rules for Boolean logic. It does not.

    – Jim
    4 hours ago
















-1















EDIT/NOTE: This phrase is from a legal document, so rules of plain language / literal interpretation are assumed to apply, so please refrain from assuming what you believe was intended by the writer. THIS IS NOT A LEGAL QUESTION, but one about proper grammatical logic. It would be highly appreciated if you referenced English grammar rules to support your point.



I've been debating with someone over the correct grammatical interpretation of the following sentence:




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and 12 feet in height.




I am fairly convinced this means the structure must exceed both base and height dimensions in order to fail to meet the requirement. However they argue if the structure exceeds either base or height dimensions, then it will fail to meet the requirement.




  • Here are the two ways this could be logically interpreted, both returning opposite results:


    H = 10, B = 20



    not (H > 12 and B > 12) ------> True



    not H > 12 and not B > 12 ------> False





I believe my interpretation is correct since there is only a single "not exceed", as well as no commas in the sentence. Whereas if the sentence said "not exceed ... and not exceed..", then that would follow the second logic:




Structure must not exceed (12 feet by 12 feet base and 12 feet in height) ------> True



Structure must (not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base) and (not exceed 12 feet in height) ------> False




Furthermore, if the sentence used an "or" instead of "and", then that would mean that exceeding either constraint would result in failure to meet the requirement:




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




Grammatically speaking, I believe the "and" is a coordinating conjunction forming a compound object, upon which the "not exceed" is acting singularly to both objects. Is this accurate?










share|improve this question









New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 3





    I don't think it needs much grammaticaI analysis: fairly sure that the requirement limits the structure's size in all dimensions, not selectively, which makes the statement unambiguous. To stretch the point, a structure which is 1 mile high won't be allowed just because its base is 11 feet by 11 feet.

    – Weather Vane
    7 hours ago











  • @WeatherVane can you please reference grammar rules for what you are saying? In the document which this phrase came from, there are other restrictions on the dimensions, so ridiculous dimensions like you mention wouldn't be possible. I don't think this statement is unambiguous at all - this is the exact sort of grammar logic that can trip people up - which is why I backed up my explanation with grammatical rules. If that grammatical reasoning is incorrect, I would like to know why.

    – John
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    Conjunction reduction always removes information. When information is removed, ambiguity is more likely. In an ambiguous sentence, the interpretation by the addressee cannot be controlled.

    – John Lawler
    7 hours ago











  • @JohnLawler The problem is, the reduction of information is optional. I gave an example of a sentence (with two "not exceed") that features a conjunction without reduction. More relevant however is that this statement came from a legal document, meaning sentences should be interpreted with minimal assumption, and should be written as such.

    – John
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it appears to be a rant about how English should follow mathematical rules for Boolean logic. It does not.

    – Jim
    4 hours ago














-1












-1








-1








EDIT/NOTE: This phrase is from a legal document, so rules of plain language / literal interpretation are assumed to apply, so please refrain from assuming what you believe was intended by the writer. THIS IS NOT A LEGAL QUESTION, but one about proper grammatical logic. It would be highly appreciated if you referenced English grammar rules to support your point.



I've been debating with someone over the correct grammatical interpretation of the following sentence:




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and 12 feet in height.




I am fairly convinced this means the structure must exceed both base and height dimensions in order to fail to meet the requirement. However they argue if the structure exceeds either base or height dimensions, then it will fail to meet the requirement.




  • Here are the two ways this could be logically interpreted, both returning opposite results:


    H = 10, B = 20



    not (H > 12 and B > 12) ------> True



    not H > 12 and not B > 12 ------> False





I believe my interpretation is correct since there is only a single "not exceed", as well as no commas in the sentence. Whereas if the sentence said "not exceed ... and not exceed..", then that would follow the second logic:




Structure must not exceed (12 feet by 12 feet base and 12 feet in height) ------> True



Structure must (not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base) and (not exceed 12 feet in height) ------> False




Furthermore, if the sentence used an "or" instead of "and", then that would mean that exceeding either constraint would result in failure to meet the requirement:




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




Grammatically speaking, I believe the "and" is a coordinating conjunction forming a compound object, upon which the "not exceed" is acting singularly to both objects. Is this accurate?










share|improve this question









New contributor




John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












EDIT/NOTE: This phrase is from a legal document, so rules of plain language / literal interpretation are assumed to apply, so please refrain from assuming what you believe was intended by the writer. THIS IS NOT A LEGAL QUESTION, but one about proper grammatical logic. It would be highly appreciated if you referenced English grammar rules to support your point.



I've been debating with someone over the correct grammatical interpretation of the following sentence:




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and 12 feet in height.




I am fairly convinced this means the structure must exceed both base and height dimensions in order to fail to meet the requirement. However they argue if the structure exceeds either base or height dimensions, then it will fail to meet the requirement.




  • Here are the two ways this could be logically interpreted, both returning opposite results:


    H = 10, B = 20



    not (H > 12 and B > 12) ------> True



    not H > 12 and not B > 12 ------> False





I believe my interpretation is correct since there is only a single "not exceed", as well as no commas in the sentence. Whereas if the sentence said "not exceed ... and not exceed..", then that would follow the second logic:




Structure must not exceed (12 feet by 12 feet base and 12 feet in height) ------> True



Structure must (not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base) and (not exceed 12 feet in height) ------> False




Furthermore, if the sentence used an "or" instead of "and", then that would mean that exceeding either constraint would result in failure to meet the requirement:




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




Grammatically speaking, I believe the "and" is a coordinating conjunction forming a compound object, upon which the "not exceed" is acting singularly to both objects. Is this accurate?







grammar logic






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John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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share|improve this question









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edited 2 hours ago







John













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asked 7 hours ago









JohnJohn

62




62




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  • 3





    I don't think it needs much grammaticaI analysis: fairly sure that the requirement limits the structure's size in all dimensions, not selectively, which makes the statement unambiguous. To stretch the point, a structure which is 1 mile high won't be allowed just because its base is 11 feet by 11 feet.

    – Weather Vane
    7 hours ago











  • @WeatherVane can you please reference grammar rules for what you are saying? In the document which this phrase came from, there are other restrictions on the dimensions, so ridiculous dimensions like you mention wouldn't be possible. I don't think this statement is unambiguous at all - this is the exact sort of grammar logic that can trip people up - which is why I backed up my explanation with grammatical rules. If that grammatical reasoning is incorrect, I would like to know why.

    – John
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    Conjunction reduction always removes information. When information is removed, ambiguity is more likely. In an ambiguous sentence, the interpretation by the addressee cannot be controlled.

    – John Lawler
    7 hours ago











  • @JohnLawler The problem is, the reduction of information is optional. I gave an example of a sentence (with two "not exceed") that features a conjunction without reduction. More relevant however is that this statement came from a legal document, meaning sentences should be interpreted with minimal assumption, and should be written as such.

    – John
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it appears to be a rant about how English should follow mathematical rules for Boolean logic. It does not.

    – Jim
    4 hours ago














  • 3





    I don't think it needs much grammaticaI analysis: fairly sure that the requirement limits the structure's size in all dimensions, not selectively, which makes the statement unambiguous. To stretch the point, a structure which is 1 mile high won't be allowed just because its base is 11 feet by 11 feet.

    – Weather Vane
    7 hours ago











  • @WeatherVane can you please reference grammar rules for what you are saying? In the document which this phrase came from, there are other restrictions on the dimensions, so ridiculous dimensions like you mention wouldn't be possible. I don't think this statement is unambiguous at all - this is the exact sort of grammar logic that can trip people up - which is why I backed up my explanation with grammatical rules. If that grammatical reasoning is incorrect, I would like to know why.

    – John
    7 hours ago






  • 1





    Conjunction reduction always removes information. When information is removed, ambiguity is more likely. In an ambiguous sentence, the interpretation by the addressee cannot be controlled.

    – John Lawler
    7 hours ago











  • @JohnLawler The problem is, the reduction of information is optional. I gave an example of a sentence (with two "not exceed") that features a conjunction without reduction. More relevant however is that this statement came from a legal document, meaning sentences should be interpreted with minimal assumption, and should be written as such.

    – John
    6 hours ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it appears to be a rant about how English should follow mathematical rules for Boolean logic. It does not.

    – Jim
    4 hours ago








3




3





I don't think it needs much grammaticaI analysis: fairly sure that the requirement limits the structure's size in all dimensions, not selectively, which makes the statement unambiguous. To stretch the point, a structure which is 1 mile high won't be allowed just because its base is 11 feet by 11 feet.

– Weather Vane
7 hours ago





I don't think it needs much grammaticaI analysis: fairly sure that the requirement limits the structure's size in all dimensions, not selectively, which makes the statement unambiguous. To stretch the point, a structure which is 1 mile high won't be allowed just because its base is 11 feet by 11 feet.

– Weather Vane
7 hours ago













@WeatherVane can you please reference grammar rules for what you are saying? In the document which this phrase came from, there are other restrictions on the dimensions, so ridiculous dimensions like you mention wouldn't be possible. I don't think this statement is unambiguous at all - this is the exact sort of grammar logic that can trip people up - which is why I backed up my explanation with grammatical rules. If that grammatical reasoning is incorrect, I would like to know why.

– John
7 hours ago





@WeatherVane can you please reference grammar rules for what you are saying? In the document which this phrase came from, there are other restrictions on the dimensions, so ridiculous dimensions like you mention wouldn't be possible. I don't think this statement is unambiguous at all - this is the exact sort of grammar logic that can trip people up - which is why I backed up my explanation with grammatical rules. If that grammatical reasoning is incorrect, I would like to know why.

– John
7 hours ago




1




1





Conjunction reduction always removes information. When information is removed, ambiguity is more likely. In an ambiguous sentence, the interpretation by the addressee cannot be controlled.

– John Lawler
7 hours ago





Conjunction reduction always removes information. When information is removed, ambiguity is more likely. In an ambiguous sentence, the interpretation by the addressee cannot be controlled.

– John Lawler
7 hours ago













@JohnLawler The problem is, the reduction of information is optional. I gave an example of a sentence (with two "not exceed") that features a conjunction without reduction. More relevant however is that this statement came from a legal document, meaning sentences should be interpreted with minimal assumption, and should be written as such.

– John
6 hours ago





@JohnLawler The problem is, the reduction of information is optional. I gave an example of a sentence (with two "not exceed") that features a conjunction without reduction. More relevant however is that this statement came from a legal document, meaning sentences should be interpreted with minimal assumption, and should be written as such.

– John
6 hours ago




1




1





I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it appears to be a rant about how English should follow mathematical rules for Boolean logic. It does not.

– Jim
4 hours ago





I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it appears to be a rant about how English should follow mathematical rules for Boolean logic. It does not.

– Jim
4 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2














Welcome to ELU, and thank you for an interesting and carefully thought-out question. And you have a point. For example:-




You should not consume wine and pork.




This is troublingly ambiguous: it seems that as long as I refrain from one of them, I have fulfilled the requirement: especially if we are following the rules of formal logic, according to which A&B <--> not (A and not B) {A and B implies not (A and not B)}. Only the obvious context of Jewish and Islamic practice makes it obvious that both are forbidden. So we had better say instead:




You should refrain from wine and pork.




Now there is no possible doubt: you cannot have either. The grammar forbids it. But we have to remember that in the rules of propositional logic, 'A' and 'B' stand for propositions.




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and structure must not exceed 12 feet in height. or rather: It must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and it must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet in height.




Both clauses must be true for the whole rather clumsy disambiguated sentence to be true. Negatives present a minefield of ambiguity. You have smartly prevented answerers from resorting to common sense to say that it is obvious, in the context of building permits that both height and footprint are subject to the scale limit.



You are also right to say that the conventional way round this logical ambiguity is to use the disjunction 'or' However, even this does not remove ambiguity, as 'not A or B' means 'not A implies B'. So we have to have 'neither A nor B'. In other words, to prevent any possibility of ambiguity we should have to say:




Structure must not exceed either 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




I wish all writers paid the attention to univocality that you are paying. However, sadly attention to precision of meaning seems to be in decline. And grammar, as a system of classifying what people actually do must sooner or later follow usage, which is, after all the the key final word of ELU.






share|improve this answer
























  • Thank you for the reply. I'd also like to point out that the example I gave in my post was from a legal code, which inherently necessitates unambiguous wording, and it is typically the case for legal documents to use redundant wording for clarity. As well, in the mentioned document, there are no context clues that would clarify it, as there would be in the bible, like you mentioned.

    – John
    5 hours ago






  • 1





    If it were really true that legal code were inherently and necessarily unambiguous then large numbers of lawyers would be out of work. When real life ambiguities occur in legal documentation the courts look at the whole context, not just a sentence in isolation. That is important in this case since the OP says that other parts of the document bear on the dimensions.

    – JeremyC
    5 hours ago











  • @JeremyC I didn't say that legal code is never ambiguous, just that the expectation is for it to be unambiguous - or rather, the expectation is for it to be interpreted in plain language. In legal situations, courts are expected to interpret statutes in plain english with minimal assumption, and only resort to their own interpretation if that plain interpretation ends up being overly absurd or non-sensible. Also I am OP- the mention about other restrictions in the document was to point out that the plain-language interpretation was not "absurd", ie, wouldn't allow a 1000000x1000000x11 building

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • @JeremyC Yes, if the legal writing has failed to be or been unable to be unambiguous, context has to be taken into account. But how it should be taken into account is often disputed as in the US right to bear arms. The aim, nevertheless, clarity.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    @John One thing we learn is that in legal documents avoid negatives if at all possible, and that where they are necessary, spell it all out in full, however tedious.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago



















1














It is ambiguous, there is not a answer which will determine if the correct interpretation is




  • must not exceed both X and Y

  • must not exceed at least one of X or Y


It if comes from legal code, then the only source of truth is case law depending on your jurisdiction, or a legal judgement.






share|improve this answer
























  • It should be noted there is a difference between social ambiguity (what is reasonably expected), and grammatical/plain language ambiguity. The phrase has social ambiguity, but not plain language ambiguity. Interpreting it in plain language with no/minimal assumption leads to a single explicit interpretation. In legal situations, the standard is to interpret the plain language, and only if that plain language sounds absurd would the court resort to its own interpretation.

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • Here is a paper on legal drafting dealing with the ambiguities of using "and" and "or". adamsdrafting.com/downloads/Ambiguity-And-Or.pdf In section IV.B this situation is handled explicitly. In the paper, the analysis is that the "more natural" interpretation of "must not exceed X and Y" is that there are two requirements, "must not exceed X" and "must not exceed Y". Also it says that if the intended meaning is "must not exceed X and Y but may exceed one of them" that you should not rely on "must not exceed X and Y" to do so.

    – colechristensen
    3 hours ago













  • This is a good paper on the ambiguity of wording, however as you mentioned, it is dealing with legal drafting, not interpretation. The people who wrote the example I gave in my OP should have referred to this document to achieve more clarity. When it comes to legal interpretation, the only time courts can diverge from the plain-language/literal interpretation is when said interpretation happens to be overly absurd, which in this case it is not.

    – John
    3 hours ago













  • It seems you are not asking an English language question but a legal question, and as I understand it the law and caselaw is ambiguous about the answer as well. If you really need an answer ask a lawyer or go to court. It also seems that you are not really asking a question but looking to confirm your position and the only answer you would accept was one that agreed with your interpretation.

    – colechristensen
    2 hours ago











  • I have to disagree on both points. I asked a question and presented my evidence/research for my view, and then I asked people what the grammatically correct interpretation was based on English grammar rules. Most of the replies have not included any references to grammar rules, thus I've had to repeatedly stress that this is what the focus is. The only relevance the law/court has to the discussion was to point out that they just happen to be an entity which relies upon strict grammar interpretation, whereas social norms do not. This is not at all a legal question, but one of grammar.

    – John
    2 hours ago











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2 Answers
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active

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2 Answers
2






active

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active

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active

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2














Welcome to ELU, and thank you for an interesting and carefully thought-out question. And you have a point. For example:-




You should not consume wine and pork.




This is troublingly ambiguous: it seems that as long as I refrain from one of them, I have fulfilled the requirement: especially if we are following the rules of formal logic, according to which A&B <--> not (A and not B) {A and B implies not (A and not B)}. Only the obvious context of Jewish and Islamic practice makes it obvious that both are forbidden. So we had better say instead:




You should refrain from wine and pork.




Now there is no possible doubt: you cannot have either. The grammar forbids it. But we have to remember that in the rules of propositional logic, 'A' and 'B' stand for propositions.




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and structure must not exceed 12 feet in height. or rather: It must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and it must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet in height.




Both clauses must be true for the whole rather clumsy disambiguated sentence to be true. Negatives present a minefield of ambiguity. You have smartly prevented answerers from resorting to common sense to say that it is obvious, in the context of building permits that both height and footprint are subject to the scale limit.



You are also right to say that the conventional way round this logical ambiguity is to use the disjunction 'or' However, even this does not remove ambiguity, as 'not A or B' means 'not A implies B'. So we have to have 'neither A nor B'. In other words, to prevent any possibility of ambiguity we should have to say:




Structure must not exceed either 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




I wish all writers paid the attention to univocality that you are paying. However, sadly attention to precision of meaning seems to be in decline. And grammar, as a system of classifying what people actually do must sooner or later follow usage, which is, after all the the key final word of ELU.






share|improve this answer
























  • Thank you for the reply. I'd also like to point out that the example I gave in my post was from a legal code, which inherently necessitates unambiguous wording, and it is typically the case for legal documents to use redundant wording for clarity. As well, in the mentioned document, there are no context clues that would clarify it, as there would be in the bible, like you mentioned.

    – John
    5 hours ago






  • 1





    If it were really true that legal code were inherently and necessarily unambiguous then large numbers of lawyers would be out of work. When real life ambiguities occur in legal documentation the courts look at the whole context, not just a sentence in isolation. That is important in this case since the OP says that other parts of the document bear on the dimensions.

    – JeremyC
    5 hours ago











  • @JeremyC I didn't say that legal code is never ambiguous, just that the expectation is for it to be unambiguous - or rather, the expectation is for it to be interpreted in plain language. In legal situations, courts are expected to interpret statutes in plain english with minimal assumption, and only resort to their own interpretation if that plain interpretation ends up being overly absurd or non-sensible. Also I am OP- the mention about other restrictions in the document was to point out that the plain-language interpretation was not "absurd", ie, wouldn't allow a 1000000x1000000x11 building

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • @JeremyC Yes, if the legal writing has failed to be or been unable to be unambiguous, context has to be taken into account. But how it should be taken into account is often disputed as in the US right to bear arms. The aim, nevertheless, clarity.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    @John One thing we learn is that in legal documents avoid negatives if at all possible, and that where they are necessary, spell it all out in full, however tedious.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago
















2














Welcome to ELU, and thank you for an interesting and carefully thought-out question. And you have a point. For example:-




You should not consume wine and pork.




This is troublingly ambiguous: it seems that as long as I refrain from one of them, I have fulfilled the requirement: especially if we are following the rules of formal logic, according to which A&B <--> not (A and not B) {A and B implies not (A and not B)}. Only the obvious context of Jewish and Islamic practice makes it obvious that both are forbidden. So we had better say instead:




You should refrain from wine and pork.




Now there is no possible doubt: you cannot have either. The grammar forbids it. But we have to remember that in the rules of propositional logic, 'A' and 'B' stand for propositions.




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and structure must not exceed 12 feet in height. or rather: It must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and it must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet in height.




Both clauses must be true for the whole rather clumsy disambiguated sentence to be true. Negatives present a minefield of ambiguity. You have smartly prevented answerers from resorting to common sense to say that it is obvious, in the context of building permits that both height and footprint are subject to the scale limit.



You are also right to say that the conventional way round this logical ambiguity is to use the disjunction 'or' However, even this does not remove ambiguity, as 'not A or B' means 'not A implies B'. So we have to have 'neither A nor B'. In other words, to prevent any possibility of ambiguity we should have to say:




Structure must not exceed either 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




I wish all writers paid the attention to univocality that you are paying. However, sadly attention to precision of meaning seems to be in decline. And grammar, as a system of classifying what people actually do must sooner or later follow usage, which is, after all the the key final word of ELU.






share|improve this answer
























  • Thank you for the reply. I'd also like to point out that the example I gave in my post was from a legal code, which inherently necessitates unambiguous wording, and it is typically the case for legal documents to use redundant wording for clarity. As well, in the mentioned document, there are no context clues that would clarify it, as there would be in the bible, like you mentioned.

    – John
    5 hours ago






  • 1





    If it were really true that legal code were inherently and necessarily unambiguous then large numbers of lawyers would be out of work. When real life ambiguities occur in legal documentation the courts look at the whole context, not just a sentence in isolation. That is important in this case since the OP says that other parts of the document bear on the dimensions.

    – JeremyC
    5 hours ago











  • @JeremyC I didn't say that legal code is never ambiguous, just that the expectation is for it to be unambiguous - or rather, the expectation is for it to be interpreted in plain language. In legal situations, courts are expected to interpret statutes in plain english with minimal assumption, and only resort to their own interpretation if that plain interpretation ends up being overly absurd or non-sensible. Also I am OP- the mention about other restrictions in the document was to point out that the plain-language interpretation was not "absurd", ie, wouldn't allow a 1000000x1000000x11 building

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • @JeremyC Yes, if the legal writing has failed to be or been unable to be unambiguous, context has to be taken into account. But how it should be taken into account is often disputed as in the US right to bear arms. The aim, nevertheless, clarity.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    @John One thing we learn is that in legal documents avoid negatives if at all possible, and that where they are necessary, spell it all out in full, however tedious.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago














2












2








2







Welcome to ELU, and thank you for an interesting and carefully thought-out question. And you have a point. For example:-




You should not consume wine and pork.




This is troublingly ambiguous: it seems that as long as I refrain from one of them, I have fulfilled the requirement: especially if we are following the rules of formal logic, according to which A&B <--> not (A and not B) {A and B implies not (A and not B)}. Only the obvious context of Jewish and Islamic practice makes it obvious that both are forbidden. So we had better say instead:




You should refrain from wine and pork.




Now there is no possible doubt: you cannot have either. The grammar forbids it. But we have to remember that in the rules of propositional logic, 'A' and 'B' stand for propositions.




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and structure must not exceed 12 feet in height. or rather: It must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and it must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet in height.




Both clauses must be true for the whole rather clumsy disambiguated sentence to be true. Negatives present a minefield of ambiguity. You have smartly prevented answerers from resorting to common sense to say that it is obvious, in the context of building permits that both height and footprint are subject to the scale limit.



You are also right to say that the conventional way round this logical ambiguity is to use the disjunction 'or' However, even this does not remove ambiguity, as 'not A or B' means 'not A implies B'. So we have to have 'neither A nor B'. In other words, to prevent any possibility of ambiguity we should have to say:




Structure must not exceed either 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




I wish all writers paid the attention to univocality that you are paying. However, sadly attention to precision of meaning seems to be in decline. And grammar, as a system of classifying what people actually do must sooner or later follow usage, which is, after all the the key final word of ELU.






share|improve this answer













Welcome to ELU, and thank you for an interesting and carefully thought-out question. And you have a point. For example:-




You should not consume wine and pork.




This is troublingly ambiguous: it seems that as long as I refrain from one of them, I have fulfilled the requirement: especially if we are following the rules of formal logic, according to which A&B <--> not (A and not B) {A and B implies not (A and not B)}. Only the obvious context of Jewish and Islamic practice makes it obvious that both are forbidden. So we had better say instead:




You should refrain from wine and pork.




Now there is no possible doubt: you cannot have either. The grammar forbids it. But we have to remember that in the rules of propositional logic, 'A' and 'B' stand for propositions.




Structure must not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and structure must not exceed 12 feet in height. or rather: It must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet by 12 feet base and it must be the case that structure does not exceed 12 feet in height.




Both clauses must be true for the whole rather clumsy disambiguated sentence to be true. Negatives present a minefield of ambiguity. You have smartly prevented answerers from resorting to common sense to say that it is obvious, in the context of building permits that both height and footprint are subject to the scale limit.



You are also right to say that the conventional way round this logical ambiguity is to use the disjunction 'or' However, even this does not remove ambiguity, as 'not A or B' means 'not A implies B'. So we have to have 'neither A nor B'. In other words, to prevent any possibility of ambiguity we should have to say:




Structure must not exceed either 12 feet by 12 feet base or 12 feet in height.




I wish all writers paid the attention to univocality that you are paying. However, sadly attention to precision of meaning seems to be in decline. And grammar, as a system of classifying what people actually do must sooner or later follow usage, which is, after all the the key final word of ELU.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 5 hours ago









TuffyTuffy

3,6061619




3,6061619













  • Thank you for the reply. I'd also like to point out that the example I gave in my post was from a legal code, which inherently necessitates unambiguous wording, and it is typically the case for legal documents to use redundant wording for clarity. As well, in the mentioned document, there are no context clues that would clarify it, as there would be in the bible, like you mentioned.

    – John
    5 hours ago






  • 1





    If it were really true that legal code were inherently and necessarily unambiguous then large numbers of lawyers would be out of work. When real life ambiguities occur in legal documentation the courts look at the whole context, not just a sentence in isolation. That is important in this case since the OP says that other parts of the document bear on the dimensions.

    – JeremyC
    5 hours ago











  • @JeremyC I didn't say that legal code is never ambiguous, just that the expectation is for it to be unambiguous - or rather, the expectation is for it to be interpreted in plain language. In legal situations, courts are expected to interpret statutes in plain english with minimal assumption, and only resort to their own interpretation if that plain interpretation ends up being overly absurd or non-sensible. Also I am OP- the mention about other restrictions in the document was to point out that the plain-language interpretation was not "absurd", ie, wouldn't allow a 1000000x1000000x11 building

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • @JeremyC Yes, if the legal writing has failed to be or been unable to be unambiguous, context has to be taken into account. But how it should be taken into account is often disputed as in the US right to bear arms. The aim, nevertheless, clarity.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    @John One thing we learn is that in legal documents avoid negatives if at all possible, and that where they are necessary, spell it all out in full, however tedious.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago



















  • Thank you for the reply. I'd also like to point out that the example I gave in my post was from a legal code, which inherently necessitates unambiguous wording, and it is typically the case for legal documents to use redundant wording for clarity. As well, in the mentioned document, there are no context clues that would clarify it, as there would be in the bible, like you mentioned.

    – John
    5 hours ago






  • 1





    If it were really true that legal code were inherently and necessarily unambiguous then large numbers of lawyers would be out of work. When real life ambiguities occur in legal documentation the courts look at the whole context, not just a sentence in isolation. That is important in this case since the OP says that other parts of the document bear on the dimensions.

    – JeremyC
    5 hours ago











  • @JeremyC I didn't say that legal code is never ambiguous, just that the expectation is for it to be unambiguous - or rather, the expectation is for it to be interpreted in plain language. In legal situations, courts are expected to interpret statutes in plain english with minimal assumption, and only resort to their own interpretation if that plain interpretation ends up being overly absurd or non-sensible. Also I am OP- the mention about other restrictions in the document was to point out that the plain-language interpretation was not "absurd", ie, wouldn't allow a 1000000x1000000x11 building

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • @JeremyC Yes, if the legal writing has failed to be or been unable to be unambiguous, context has to be taken into account. But how it should be taken into account is often disputed as in the US right to bear arms. The aim, nevertheless, clarity.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    @John One thing we learn is that in legal documents avoid negatives if at all possible, and that where they are necessary, spell it all out in full, however tedious.

    – Tuffy
    3 hours ago

















Thank you for the reply. I'd also like to point out that the example I gave in my post was from a legal code, which inherently necessitates unambiguous wording, and it is typically the case for legal documents to use redundant wording for clarity. As well, in the mentioned document, there are no context clues that would clarify it, as there would be in the bible, like you mentioned.

– John
5 hours ago





Thank you for the reply. I'd also like to point out that the example I gave in my post was from a legal code, which inherently necessitates unambiguous wording, and it is typically the case for legal documents to use redundant wording for clarity. As well, in the mentioned document, there are no context clues that would clarify it, as there would be in the bible, like you mentioned.

– John
5 hours ago




1




1





If it were really true that legal code were inherently and necessarily unambiguous then large numbers of lawyers would be out of work. When real life ambiguities occur in legal documentation the courts look at the whole context, not just a sentence in isolation. That is important in this case since the OP says that other parts of the document bear on the dimensions.

– JeremyC
5 hours ago





If it were really true that legal code were inherently and necessarily unambiguous then large numbers of lawyers would be out of work. When real life ambiguities occur in legal documentation the courts look at the whole context, not just a sentence in isolation. That is important in this case since the OP says that other parts of the document bear on the dimensions.

– JeremyC
5 hours ago













@JeremyC I didn't say that legal code is never ambiguous, just that the expectation is for it to be unambiguous - or rather, the expectation is for it to be interpreted in plain language. In legal situations, courts are expected to interpret statutes in plain english with minimal assumption, and only resort to their own interpretation if that plain interpretation ends up being overly absurd or non-sensible. Also I am OP- the mention about other restrictions in the document was to point out that the plain-language interpretation was not "absurd", ie, wouldn't allow a 1000000x1000000x11 building

– John
4 hours ago







@JeremyC I didn't say that legal code is never ambiguous, just that the expectation is for it to be unambiguous - or rather, the expectation is for it to be interpreted in plain language. In legal situations, courts are expected to interpret statutes in plain english with minimal assumption, and only resort to their own interpretation if that plain interpretation ends up being overly absurd or non-sensible. Also I am OP- the mention about other restrictions in the document was to point out that the plain-language interpretation was not "absurd", ie, wouldn't allow a 1000000x1000000x11 building

– John
4 hours ago















@JeremyC Yes, if the legal writing has failed to be or been unable to be unambiguous, context has to be taken into account. But how it should be taken into account is often disputed as in the US right to bear arms. The aim, nevertheless, clarity.

– Tuffy
3 hours ago





@JeremyC Yes, if the legal writing has failed to be or been unable to be unambiguous, context has to be taken into account. But how it should be taken into account is often disputed as in the US right to bear arms. The aim, nevertheless, clarity.

– Tuffy
3 hours ago




1




1





@John One thing we learn is that in legal documents avoid negatives if at all possible, and that where they are necessary, spell it all out in full, however tedious.

– Tuffy
3 hours ago





@John One thing we learn is that in legal documents avoid negatives if at all possible, and that where they are necessary, spell it all out in full, however tedious.

– Tuffy
3 hours ago













1














It is ambiguous, there is not a answer which will determine if the correct interpretation is




  • must not exceed both X and Y

  • must not exceed at least one of X or Y


It if comes from legal code, then the only source of truth is case law depending on your jurisdiction, or a legal judgement.






share|improve this answer
























  • It should be noted there is a difference between social ambiguity (what is reasonably expected), and grammatical/plain language ambiguity. The phrase has social ambiguity, but not plain language ambiguity. Interpreting it in plain language with no/minimal assumption leads to a single explicit interpretation. In legal situations, the standard is to interpret the plain language, and only if that plain language sounds absurd would the court resort to its own interpretation.

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • Here is a paper on legal drafting dealing with the ambiguities of using "and" and "or". adamsdrafting.com/downloads/Ambiguity-And-Or.pdf In section IV.B this situation is handled explicitly. In the paper, the analysis is that the "more natural" interpretation of "must not exceed X and Y" is that there are two requirements, "must not exceed X" and "must not exceed Y". Also it says that if the intended meaning is "must not exceed X and Y but may exceed one of them" that you should not rely on "must not exceed X and Y" to do so.

    – colechristensen
    3 hours ago













  • This is a good paper on the ambiguity of wording, however as you mentioned, it is dealing with legal drafting, not interpretation. The people who wrote the example I gave in my OP should have referred to this document to achieve more clarity. When it comes to legal interpretation, the only time courts can diverge from the plain-language/literal interpretation is when said interpretation happens to be overly absurd, which in this case it is not.

    – John
    3 hours ago













  • It seems you are not asking an English language question but a legal question, and as I understand it the law and caselaw is ambiguous about the answer as well. If you really need an answer ask a lawyer or go to court. It also seems that you are not really asking a question but looking to confirm your position and the only answer you would accept was one that agreed with your interpretation.

    – colechristensen
    2 hours ago











  • I have to disagree on both points. I asked a question and presented my evidence/research for my view, and then I asked people what the grammatically correct interpretation was based on English grammar rules. Most of the replies have not included any references to grammar rules, thus I've had to repeatedly stress that this is what the focus is. The only relevance the law/court has to the discussion was to point out that they just happen to be an entity which relies upon strict grammar interpretation, whereas social norms do not. This is not at all a legal question, but one of grammar.

    – John
    2 hours ago
















1














It is ambiguous, there is not a answer which will determine if the correct interpretation is




  • must not exceed both X and Y

  • must not exceed at least one of X or Y


It if comes from legal code, then the only source of truth is case law depending on your jurisdiction, or a legal judgement.






share|improve this answer
























  • It should be noted there is a difference between social ambiguity (what is reasonably expected), and grammatical/plain language ambiguity. The phrase has social ambiguity, but not plain language ambiguity. Interpreting it in plain language with no/minimal assumption leads to a single explicit interpretation. In legal situations, the standard is to interpret the plain language, and only if that plain language sounds absurd would the court resort to its own interpretation.

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • Here is a paper on legal drafting dealing with the ambiguities of using "and" and "or". adamsdrafting.com/downloads/Ambiguity-And-Or.pdf In section IV.B this situation is handled explicitly. In the paper, the analysis is that the "more natural" interpretation of "must not exceed X and Y" is that there are two requirements, "must not exceed X" and "must not exceed Y". Also it says that if the intended meaning is "must not exceed X and Y but may exceed one of them" that you should not rely on "must not exceed X and Y" to do so.

    – colechristensen
    3 hours ago













  • This is a good paper on the ambiguity of wording, however as you mentioned, it is dealing with legal drafting, not interpretation. The people who wrote the example I gave in my OP should have referred to this document to achieve more clarity. When it comes to legal interpretation, the only time courts can diverge from the plain-language/literal interpretation is when said interpretation happens to be overly absurd, which in this case it is not.

    – John
    3 hours ago













  • It seems you are not asking an English language question but a legal question, and as I understand it the law and caselaw is ambiguous about the answer as well. If you really need an answer ask a lawyer or go to court. It also seems that you are not really asking a question but looking to confirm your position and the only answer you would accept was one that agreed with your interpretation.

    – colechristensen
    2 hours ago











  • I have to disagree on both points. I asked a question and presented my evidence/research for my view, and then I asked people what the grammatically correct interpretation was based on English grammar rules. Most of the replies have not included any references to grammar rules, thus I've had to repeatedly stress that this is what the focus is. The only relevance the law/court has to the discussion was to point out that they just happen to be an entity which relies upon strict grammar interpretation, whereas social norms do not. This is not at all a legal question, but one of grammar.

    – John
    2 hours ago














1












1








1







It is ambiguous, there is not a answer which will determine if the correct interpretation is




  • must not exceed both X and Y

  • must not exceed at least one of X or Y


It if comes from legal code, then the only source of truth is case law depending on your jurisdiction, or a legal judgement.






share|improve this answer













It is ambiguous, there is not a answer which will determine if the correct interpretation is




  • must not exceed both X and Y

  • must not exceed at least one of X or Y


It if comes from legal code, then the only source of truth is case law depending on your jurisdiction, or a legal judgement.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 5 hours ago









colechristensencolechristensen

43024




43024













  • It should be noted there is a difference between social ambiguity (what is reasonably expected), and grammatical/plain language ambiguity. The phrase has social ambiguity, but not plain language ambiguity. Interpreting it in plain language with no/minimal assumption leads to a single explicit interpretation. In legal situations, the standard is to interpret the plain language, and only if that plain language sounds absurd would the court resort to its own interpretation.

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • Here is a paper on legal drafting dealing with the ambiguities of using "and" and "or". adamsdrafting.com/downloads/Ambiguity-And-Or.pdf In section IV.B this situation is handled explicitly. In the paper, the analysis is that the "more natural" interpretation of "must not exceed X and Y" is that there are two requirements, "must not exceed X" and "must not exceed Y". Also it says that if the intended meaning is "must not exceed X and Y but may exceed one of them" that you should not rely on "must not exceed X and Y" to do so.

    – colechristensen
    3 hours ago













  • This is a good paper on the ambiguity of wording, however as you mentioned, it is dealing with legal drafting, not interpretation. The people who wrote the example I gave in my OP should have referred to this document to achieve more clarity. When it comes to legal interpretation, the only time courts can diverge from the plain-language/literal interpretation is when said interpretation happens to be overly absurd, which in this case it is not.

    – John
    3 hours ago













  • It seems you are not asking an English language question but a legal question, and as I understand it the law and caselaw is ambiguous about the answer as well. If you really need an answer ask a lawyer or go to court. It also seems that you are not really asking a question but looking to confirm your position and the only answer you would accept was one that agreed with your interpretation.

    – colechristensen
    2 hours ago











  • I have to disagree on both points. I asked a question and presented my evidence/research for my view, and then I asked people what the grammatically correct interpretation was based on English grammar rules. Most of the replies have not included any references to grammar rules, thus I've had to repeatedly stress that this is what the focus is. The only relevance the law/court has to the discussion was to point out that they just happen to be an entity which relies upon strict grammar interpretation, whereas social norms do not. This is not at all a legal question, but one of grammar.

    – John
    2 hours ago



















  • It should be noted there is a difference between social ambiguity (what is reasonably expected), and grammatical/plain language ambiguity. The phrase has social ambiguity, but not plain language ambiguity. Interpreting it in plain language with no/minimal assumption leads to a single explicit interpretation. In legal situations, the standard is to interpret the plain language, and only if that plain language sounds absurd would the court resort to its own interpretation.

    – John
    4 hours ago













  • Here is a paper on legal drafting dealing with the ambiguities of using "and" and "or". adamsdrafting.com/downloads/Ambiguity-And-Or.pdf In section IV.B this situation is handled explicitly. In the paper, the analysis is that the "more natural" interpretation of "must not exceed X and Y" is that there are two requirements, "must not exceed X" and "must not exceed Y". Also it says that if the intended meaning is "must not exceed X and Y but may exceed one of them" that you should not rely on "must not exceed X and Y" to do so.

    – colechristensen
    3 hours ago













  • This is a good paper on the ambiguity of wording, however as you mentioned, it is dealing with legal drafting, not interpretation. The people who wrote the example I gave in my OP should have referred to this document to achieve more clarity. When it comes to legal interpretation, the only time courts can diverge from the plain-language/literal interpretation is when said interpretation happens to be overly absurd, which in this case it is not.

    – John
    3 hours ago













  • It seems you are not asking an English language question but a legal question, and as I understand it the law and caselaw is ambiguous about the answer as well. If you really need an answer ask a lawyer or go to court. It also seems that you are not really asking a question but looking to confirm your position and the only answer you would accept was one that agreed with your interpretation.

    – colechristensen
    2 hours ago











  • I have to disagree on both points. I asked a question and presented my evidence/research for my view, and then I asked people what the grammatically correct interpretation was based on English grammar rules. Most of the replies have not included any references to grammar rules, thus I've had to repeatedly stress that this is what the focus is. The only relevance the law/court has to the discussion was to point out that they just happen to be an entity which relies upon strict grammar interpretation, whereas social norms do not. This is not at all a legal question, but one of grammar.

    – John
    2 hours ago

















It should be noted there is a difference between social ambiguity (what is reasonably expected), and grammatical/plain language ambiguity. The phrase has social ambiguity, but not plain language ambiguity. Interpreting it in plain language with no/minimal assumption leads to a single explicit interpretation. In legal situations, the standard is to interpret the plain language, and only if that plain language sounds absurd would the court resort to its own interpretation.

– John
4 hours ago







It should be noted there is a difference between social ambiguity (what is reasonably expected), and grammatical/plain language ambiguity. The phrase has social ambiguity, but not plain language ambiguity. Interpreting it in plain language with no/minimal assumption leads to a single explicit interpretation. In legal situations, the standard is to interpret the plain language, and only if that plain language sounds absurd would the court resort to its own interpretation.

– John
4 hours ago















Here is a paper on legal drafting dealing with the ambiguities of using "and" and "or". adamsdrafting.com/downloads/Ambiguity-And-Or.pdf In section IV.B this situation is handled explicitly. In the paper, the analysis is that the "more natural" interpretation of "must not exceed X and Y" is that there are two requirements, "must not exceed X" and "must not exceed Y". Also it says that if the intended meaning is "must not exceed X and Y but may exceed one of them" that you should not rely on "must not exceed X and Y" to do so.

– colechristensen
3 hours ago







Here is a paper on legal drafting dealing with the ambiguities of using "and" and "or". adamsdrafting.com/downloads/Ambiguity-And-Or.pdf In section IV.B this situation is handled explicitly. In the paper, the analysis is that the "more natural" interpretation of "must not exceed X and Y" is that there are two requirements, "must not exceed X" and "must not exceed Y". Also it says that if the intended meaning is "must not exceed X and Y but may exceed one of them" that you should not rely on "must not exceed X and Y" to do so.

– colechristensen
3 hours ago















This is a good paper on the ambiguity of wording, however as you mentioned, it is dealing with legal drafting, not interpretation. The people who wrote the example I gave in my OP should have referred to this document to achieve more clarity. When it comes to legal interpretation, the only time courts can diverge from the plain-language/literal interpretation is when said interpretation happens to be overly absurd, which in this case it is not.

– John
3 hours ago







This is a good paper on the ambiguity of wording, however as you mentioned, it is dealing with legal drafting, not interpretation. The people who wrote the example I gave in my OP should have referred to this document to achieve more clarity. When it comes to legal interpretation, the only time courts can diverge from the plain-language/literal interpretation is when said interpretation happens to be overly absurd, which in this case it is not.

– John
3 hours ago















It seems you are not asking an English language question but a legal question, and as I understand it the law and caselaw is ambiguous about the answer as well. If you really need an answer ask a lawyer or go to court. It also seems that you are not really asking a question but looking to confirm your position and the only answer you would accept was one that agreed with your interpretation.

– colechristensen
2 hours ago





It seems you are not asking an English language question but a legal question, and as I understand it the law and caselaw is ambiguous about the answer as well. If you really need an answer ask a lawyer or go to court. It also seems that you are not really asking a question but looking to confirm your position and the only answer you would accept was one that agreed with your interpretation.

– colechristensen
2 hours ago













I have to disagree on both points. I asked a question and presented my evidence/research for my view, and then I asked people what the grammatically correct interpretation was based on English grammar rules. Most of the replies have not included any references to grammar rules, thus I've had to repeatedly stress that this is what the focus is. The only relevance the law/court has to the discussion was to point out that they just happen to be an entity which relies upon strict grammar interpretation, whereas social norms do not. This is not at all a legal question, but one of grammar.

– John
2 hours ago





I have to disagree on both points. I asked a question and presented my evidence/research for my view, and then I asked people what the grammatically correct interpretation was based on English grammar rules. Most of the replies have not included any references to grammar rules, thus I've had to repeatedly stress that this is what the focus is. The only relevance the law/court has to the discussion was to point out that they just happen to be an entity which relies upon strict grammar interpretation, whereas social norms do not. This is not at all a legal question, but one of grammar.

– John
2 hours ago










John is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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